Tiller vs. Wheel Steering

[Dustin Newell]

Hi guys I have a 73 Pearson 30 I was thinking of making the change from tiller to wheel steering because I plan to do some coastal cruising eventually would it be better to get a wheel set up for the boat or an autopilot for the P-30 it would be a 2 man crew for coastal cruising. Any suggestions or comments would be appreciated

Thanks,

Dustin

[Phong Do]

A wheel does give the P30 a Yaughty feel.

Whats your budget for the conversion(if you were to)?

Between a traveler and Edison pedestal you'll lose a lot of cockpit space. Who will you be mostly cruising with?

Also your height is something to consider, in respect to the boom.

I personally like the tiller for a few reasons. Tiller auto pilot is also inexpensive. And here's one of option,  not my video but you get the point.

https://youtu.be/FQNBlrg0VyI

Phong
1973 P30 #409

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[RICHARD USEN]

We had a tiller pilot and loved it. We used it a lot. We have a wheel pilot and rarely use it because of the noise. I also prefer a tiller. Converting is expensive. Keep the tiller.

 

Dick Usen

T-33 #100

Hopscotch

Boston

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[Dustin Newell]

Ok thanks I'll probably pick up one of those raymarine autopilots for long cruises

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[Graham Law Firm]

I have a Pearson 10m with a tiller. I have wished for a wheel when we tack and I sort of clear the cockpit (it is a big, long, tiller) of children and bathing beauties (true 40 years ago, now clearing it of dogs and grandchildren). 

But I am glad I have a tiller. It steers better, better feel. Cables quadrants, pulleys, all break, get magnetized and screw up the compass, and you cannot sit on the rail with the wheel you will have. 

I have thought that a perfect combo would be my tiller with an under deck ram autopilot driving a quadrant attached to the rudder post. That way, I could simply lift the tiller straight up out of the way, kick in the auto pilot, steer with it, and not have the tiller or the wheel and pedestal I the cockpit. Might get Robert Earl Keen and his band to perform from a stage in the cockpit. The Coral Reefer band is too small and would not do a fully empty cockpit justice. 

Mike 

Sent from my iPhone

[Dustin Newell]

Thanks

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[Peter Ogilvie]

The last thing I'd want on a boat as small as a P30 is a wheel especially that is going to be cruised.  If you want to stand at the back of the boat in the spray and wind, directing your minions, have at it.  A wheel adds complexity and many points of failure against the almost fool proof tiller system.  You lose feel for the boat and slow down your steering input as well as making the boat way more tiring to steer.  If you are thinking of a self steering vane, it will work way better with a tiller.  Wheels have a lot of inertia and drag and slow 

slow input of steering direction that doesn't work to the benefit of a vane steerer.  You can't get a wheel pilot for under $1,200, a tiller pilot is less than $500.  A wheel makes fore and aft movement a yoga exercise.

If you really want to go ahead with it, I pulled the Wheel off my P35 and went back to a tiller.  $300 and it's yours.  Best change I've made to the boat.  

With a tiller, steering input is instantaneous with great feedback.  Kind of like the difference between a good rack and pinion steering system and the typical Detroit mush steering.  If the boat is set up properly, you can steer with your legs while having both hands free to work the boat.  At anchor, lift the tiller vertical and you've got the whole cockpit free.  Aloha

Peter Ogilvie

'Ae'a, Pearson 35 #108

[Dustin Newell]

Thanks I'm gonna stick with the tiller was just wondering if anyone had any input that I was missing

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[Dave Cole]

If you are single handed, or short handed and need to maintain a course automatically so you can tend to something else quickly, electric autopilots are pretty hard to beat.

 

If you are going in one direction for hours and the wind is consistent from a certain direction then you can rig a self steer system, but it isn't quick and if the wind shifts, your course shifts. 

 

Personally I would give up a lot before I gave up my electric autopilot. 

 

Dave

 

10M #26 with Autohelm 4000 (antique)

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From: pearso...@googlegroups.com [mailto:pearso...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Phong Do
Sent: Friday, October 30, 2015 7:14 PM
To: pearso...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [pearson ] Tiller vs. Wheel Steering

---

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[Peter Ogilvie]

Have sailed 5 figure miles with a self steering vane.  Vanes are always ready, almost instantly engaged, super quiet, no electrons to supply and try and keep flowing, can be fixed with simple hand tools for almost anything that goes wrong and it almost never does. If the sails are up, the self steering vane is steering the boat.  Not a problem coastal or close quarters because I maintain a watch, something that every body should do when hard objects are near at hand.  Don't know where people get the idea that self steering vanes are hard or time consuming to set up and engage.  Maybe they are the ones who have to put up with a wheel to do it.  Even thenIt's no big thing to engage the steering vane, just fair the vane into the wind and engage the pin in the wheel adapter.  Not quite as easy as slipping the chain into the tiller attachment but almost.  With my old Aries, could steer the boat from anywhere on the boat, even the end of the bowsprit.  Rather handy when single handing.  Not quite as easy to do with the WindPilot Pacific Plus on the Pearson 35 but can change steering input anywhere in the cockpit and even down below.  

Only recently added an auto pilot which is fine for motoring but never use it sailing.

 

Aloha
Peter Ogilvie
'Ae'a, Pearson 35 #108

[Dave Cole]

 

I wasn't referring to a vane.   I was referring to the self steering methods in the video link that was attached.  Try and do that quickly...   :-/

 

New vanes are more expensive than many high end electronic/hydraulic autopilots.    There is nothing cheap about a new wind vane.

 

I've had boats with tillers and wheels and they both work.  A tiller tends to sweep the cockpit as mentioned which can be a problem and sort of negates the quick steering advantage and great feel. 

The wheel/compass binnacle combo is pretty handy especially on the 10M since the wheel is forward.  If the wheel mechanism screws up out comes the emergency tiller.

 

Tillerpilots do not have a great reputation for reliability, but they are cheap so I think it is common for long distance cruisers to carry a entire spare. 

 

Dave

 

 

 

 

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From: pearso...@googlegroups.com [mailto:pearso...@googlegroups.com]
Sent: Friday, October 30, 2015 8:15 PM

[Peter Ogilvie]

I've got a used boat, why would I want a new self steering vane??  Nice thing about a vane is most anyone can look carefully at one and see what condition they are in for themselves.  Hard to do that with a used auto pilot.  Bought my WindPilot Pacific Plus for $1700.  It had sailed a 40' plus boat from the New England to SF Bay and me to Hawaii.  It's an auxiliary rudder vane so it can act as an emergency rudder if the boats rudder goes tits up.  Nearly had to use it for emergency steering as the boat's wheel steering was on it's last legs at the end of the sail to Hawaii.  Have bought a Sailomat pendulum servo vane for &1,700 with an emergency rudder attachment.  Sold the Monitor that my boat came with for $1.700.  That was a particularly good deal as it had been installed in anticipation of a cruise to Mexico but never used.  Cruisers and Sailors Board has had a Sailomat supposedly in very good condition for $1,200.  Even though a WindPilot Pacific sells for $3,600 new, you can find some sort of pendulum servo vane for under 2 boat units at almost any time.  FWIW, installed the WindPilot Pacific Plus in an hour in a downpour so a vane can be way easier to install than even a tiller pilot.

Don't rule out a vane if you are going to do more than just daysailing.  Hell, for me even daysailing, the vane does the driving.

 

Aloha
Peter Ogilvie
'Ae'a, Pearson 35 #108

[George DuBose]

Question for Peter Ogilvie...

When you converted your P35 from the wheel to the tiller, what did you
use to close the tiller aperture? I have a deckplate on my P36 that
gives great access to the top of my bronze rudder post.

I would just wonder how I could close the aperture to prevent rain and
seawater from entering around the rudder post.

I am sure that there were P35s and P36s with tillers, not wheels, how
did Pearson deal with the watertightness issue?

Can you please send a photo to my email address?

Thanks,

George DuBose
Paul-Niessen-Strasse 14
D-50969 Cologne, Germany
Mobile: +49.160.481.1234
Skype: georgedubose or call +1.347.284.6443

To send me large files:
www.hightail.com/u/GeorgeDuBose510813

Personal website:
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Galleries:
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Short video of Skylark's vacation:
https://vimeo.com/133183259
Password: SkylarkNY

S/V Skylark
Compagnieshaven
Enkhuizen, NL

[Bill Robart]

I remember reading about a solo long distance race where it was common to carry several tiller pilots to make sure they wouldn't have to hand steer.  One racer reported that he was sorry he had thrown the dead ones overboard because the final one was beginning to show signs of failure.

On my 25 footer I didn't have an auto pilot but instead lashed the tiller.  For any course above a beam reach the boat would self steer for extended periods (hours) without any correction. Most boats with a properly balanced and trimmed sail plan should do the same.

My P-33-1 came with an antique "TillerMaster" that looked and sounded like it was on its last legs. I have no idea how old it was but it kept doing it's thing for the nearly 30 ears I owned the boat.  I'll never own another sailboat without an autopilot. The auto pilot allows doing things other than steering but as Peter O says, you still have to keep watch.

Bill

[d...@pfeiffer.net]

I have some info on that conversion that I can send you George.  For now here's a cockpit pic of a P36 I have been on.  This is OEM.  At the cockpit sole there is a fitting with o-rings. 

I try to teach this formula to students...

R=1/P

R is reliability, P is number of parts.  This applies to any system.

Really like working with sheet-to-tiller steering systems.  You learn a lot about getting the boat balanced.  I had this setup on my P26.  Some info here:
http://dan.pfeiffer.net/p26/selfsteer.htm

I have thought about making this work on the 10M wheel... easier with a tiller.  

Dan Pfeiffer

[Dustin Newell]

Would it be hard to setup a self steering system on a p30 I have read that they can be tender just bought the boost so haven't been able to sail it yet is still on the hard

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[Peter Ogilvie]

Pearson had a fiberglass piece that was screwed to the deck and the rudder shaft when through.  The piece was way smaller than the diameter of the emergency tiller plate.  Suppose this was a stock item that they used on all their tiller steered boats.  Have seen one P35 with a factory tiller but the owner was a bit of a jerk and didn't invite me aboard to see how the whole tiller set up was done.  Most boats built with a tiller have a FRP tube glassed between the hull and deck to contain the rudder shaft but don't know if that is how Pearson did it.

I used a hollow bronze rod 2 1/4" OD x 1 1/2" ID for a sleeve and a 1 1/2" OD stubshaft to get the rudder shaft above cockpit sole.  That left me with the rudder stock dangling in mid air coming out of that big hole.  Figured some sort of bearing support was needed as well covering over the puka.  Finally decided to go with a 2" thick block of that super slippery plastic big enough to overlap the puka by about an inch.  Had it bored to an interference fit at the angle of the rudder shaft.  Routed out a shallow groove around the perimeter of the underside of the block for the caulk to have a mechanical attachment to the slippery piece and bolted it does with bolts on each corner.  Figured the 5200 in the groove would make a small dam around the puka even if it didn't stay adhered to the plastic   The seal between the plastic block and rudder shaft has no seal other than the tight fit of the shaft.  Figured there can be very little, if any, water that will get down the shaft.  The old packing gland for the rudder shaft alway leaked with the wheel steering so it can't be any worse.  The packing gland has quit leaking now that it has the additional support at the cockpit sole.

Someone who was more skilled at fiberglass work than me probably could fill in the hole, make an FRP block in a swoopy shape, glass it to the deck and use a packing gland to seal the shaft.

The most expensive part of the conversion was the tiller head from Edson, doubled the cost.  I had it in my head that the stub shaft had to be 1 1/2" o/d when I could have made it any diameter that would work with the sleeve.  Looked for years for a used 1 1/2" I/D tiller head with no luck.  Found a bunch that were 1 5/8" for well under $50 but passed on them looking of the 1 1/2" I/D holy grail.  All in, the conversion cost a boat unit.  Hopefully can recover some of that if and when the Pedestal and wheel is sold.  In any case, it was worth every nickel.  Had come to loath dealing with the restrictions and dead feel of the wheel.  

Peter Ogilvie

'Ae'a, Pearson 35 #108

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[d...@pfeiffer.net]

Here are some pics from under the cockpit on the P36 with tiller.  I expect any Pearson of the era would be similar. 

 

---
Dan Pfeiffer

[George DuBose]

Hi Dan,

The two photos you sent me that are the rudder tube of a P36 don't look
anything like Skylark's rudder post and rudder "stuffing box". Where
would the "bearings" be located?

The massive bronze shoe at the bottom of the skeg has a hole in which
the bottom of the rudder post sits. The top of the rudder post passes
through a bronze fitting and a hexagon cap. Removing the cap and
sliding it up the rudder post allows one to change the flax inside this
"stuffing box" (what is this really called?). The shoe provides one
"bearing" and the stuffing box and flax supplies the other "bearing.

The rudder post continues up to just under the cockpit sole where it
ends in a square to accept the emergency tiller.

I am not converting Skylark's wheel to a tiller. The wheel sits well
forward in the cockpit and one can steer while sitting under the
dodger. I was just curious about how P36s were fitted with a tiller.

[Jeff Griglack]

Dan,
Those pictures look very much like the rudder tube for my 1972 P3O with tiller steering. George, are you comparing them to a wheel steering P36? On a wheel steering system, I would expect to find a stuffing box just below the quadrant, but there is no need for that with a tiller.

You can tell its getting close to with time when somebody bingo up the "wheel vs. tiller" debate. :)

Jeff

[RICHARD USEN]

Yes, and while we’re on the debate of tiller/wheel, These boats likely all have either the tube running between the cockpit sole and the inside of the hull. If you want to install a wheel, you need to cut the tube as high as possible (ideally above the water line) and install a stuffing box to keep the boat from sinking. The quadrant goes above the stuffing box.  Edson sells many different sizes. In my present boat (Tartan), the stuffing box is fiberglassed to the bottom structure of the hull. The stuffing box itself functions as the bottom bearing and there is a huge upper aluminum bearing bolted to the helm seat. My P-30 had a similar design w/ a Delrin bottom bushing at the hull and a Delrin top bushing at the cockpit sole. If I’d wanted to install a wheel conversion, I’d have had to cut the tube and install a stuffing box from Edson. The stuffing box couldn’t have any bearing function because the tube doesn’t have enough structural strength to hold it. The rudder stock would’ve been supported by the two Delrin bushings. The Tartan has a huge structure to support the stuffing box/bearing w/ several big gussets glassed to it and the hull of the boat.      

 

Dick Usen

T-33 #100

Hopscotch

Boston

 

From: pearso...@googlegroups.com [mailto:pearso...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Griglack
Sent: Sunday, November 01, 2015 9:34 AM
To: pearso...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [pearson ] Tiller vs. Wheel Steering

 

Dan,

[Robert Franklin]

George,

I just want to note my personal delight that the P36-1 is configured as is. Some people may disparage the wheel forward, as it does impair - to a small degree - access into the companionway, but I feel the other positive features far outweigh this small issue.  Weight is closer to the center  of gravity. Access to food and drink passed up from below is convenient. The protection of the cabin and the dodger cannot be over estimated.

The forward wheel may not have the "commanding" appearance of sitting far back, but I never understood the point of that to begin with.

The only thing better, would be having two wheels side by side, like all the modern boats.  Maybe we can turn the discussion to how that conversion could be accomplished.  If not side by side, maybe one for ward and one aft. I have thought about one above the other, but I really can't see an advantage in that, unless the sail plan were reconfigured to raise the boom.  But then is would mean having the main re-cut and the dodger raised ... probably not worth it for a small advantage in sight line.

Bob

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[Michael Graham]

Raising the Boom. 

With my tiller steered 10m, I raised the boom in mid 80s to accommodate a Bimini stretching from the front of the main hatchway to the rear pulpit. It gets really hot on Galveston bay and the Gulf if the sun is directly on you. 

We fabricated a Shaffer traveler for coach roof, just forward of hatch, moved the main sheet / boom to a three bale system on the boom to spread the load, and it has worked fine. Traveler is through bolted to coach roof with backing plates painted the color of the lining to spread the load. 

We moved the boom up 8 inches and took it off the bottom of the main. However, in buying used 10m mains from those who get new ones every year or two for racing, the ones cut with extra Roach and a slightly shorter hoist need no modification. 

It did obstruct view if you are sitting down in the cockpit, but with a tiller, you are mostly on one rail or the other anyway. 

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