P10 M Keel Bolts

[darin doherty]

Greetings all,

So, now because of my spreader and other issues, my mast is getting pulled.

This is opportunity to redo the mast step which is shot.

I have seen the article on Dan's site showing the two different ways.  I may work one of those or something else.  The question I have is, has anyone actually removed the keel bolts from the keel??  I know there are discussons on the torque and material, but I was wondering if anyone had actually double nutted and removed the bolts from the keel itself? 

The prevuous mast step looks like it was made of aluminum, but has been sitting underwater and is gone.  IT was held down by the four keel bolts.  I wanted to make sure that there was no damage to the bolts, only the step plate.

Thanks for all your advice and experiencel

Darin

P10M, #108

[darin doherty]

Adding a couple of pics.

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[Peter Trunfio]

Rigrite sells a replacement mast step (if you can get ahold of them).

It says P365, but the Sound Spars 8755 was used on the 10M as well:

https://www.rigrite.com/Spars/SparParts/Mast_Steps.php

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[Jeff Griglack]

If it's the same part as for the P365, the part number I bought was "MM 8348MSK-P1".  RigRite now has an online ordering system on their website, so you don't have to send a message and wait for a quote.  However, look around at the different ones listed for different Pearson boats.  https://www.rigrite.com/Spars/SparParts/Mast_Steps.php

------------------------------------------------------------------
| Jeff Griglack             "Jabberwocky" P-365 #269

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| "Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent"
|                   - Walt Kelly
| 'Years ago my mother used to say to me, she'd say, "In this
| world, Elwood, you must be" – she always called me Elwood –
| "In this world, Elwood, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant."
| Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. You may quote me.'
|               —James Stewart as Elwood P. Dowd
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[Peter Trunfio]

Looks like they are marketing the same 8755 mast step for multiple models...

The "8755" is for the dimensions of the mast section 8.75" x 5.5"...

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[Robert Franklin]

Darin,

Here is my experience. P36 1972. The original step was ferrous. Amazing. It rusted away to a point of danger. I replaced it with an aluminum step about a decade ago.  As the P36 location is above the bilge my step has never been subject to any water except some dripping down the mast. 

Someone else can chime in on the effect of water (salt or fresh) on raw aluminum that is immersed.  My amateur guess is that aluminum will not be "shot" as a result and may not suffer at all. Take a magnet and check whether your step is ferrous or non ferrous.

As for keel bolts, do not even think about removal until you communicate with George Dubose from our group. In the meantime, no!

Bob Franklin

On Wed, Oct 19, 2022 at 7:31 PM Peter Trunfio <peter....@gmail.com> wrote:

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Robert M. Franklin, Esq.
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[Robert Franklin]

By the way maybe you already know this. The bolts holding the mast step in place have nothing to do with the keel.

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[darin doherty]

I have heard the original step was ferrous, but this one is definitely not.  At least the piece I picked up.  It was way too light.  Maybe magnesium??  Maybe I will try to file some bits off the piece that fell off and see if it lights. Its oxide was white, there was no flaking rust coming off it.

When I worked at Universal Studios, we used to use magnesium as a sacrificial anode for aluminum in fresh water.  As you can see from the image, it is in pretty rough shape. much more rough than the mast itself.

As far as Keel bolts, I will have to at least undo the nuts to get this pile of stuff off.  I just want to make sure there is no corrosion on the bolts before I move forward with the replacement.  If it does turn out to be magnesium, there should not be any corrosion on the bolts as this would have been much more reactive than the stainless bolts.  If it is aluminum, then I am not sure of the base of the bolts embedded below the epoxy.  If it looks sealed and clean, then I will not worry about it.

I have seen other folks on other boats remove the bolts out of the keel, and was just wondering if these were in the keel the same way.

Darin

Dairn

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[darin doherty]

"By the way maybe you already know this. The bolts holding the mast step in place have nothing to do with the keel."

That would be awesome.  I have not seen any pics of the original step, so I am just going by what I see in the photos.  That would be great if they were not tied down with the keel.  But, On my boat, I have found some very interesting things since I have had it.

Darin

[Robert Franklin]

I'm no expert. There are others in the group much better than I, but this is how I believe the mast works. 

The pressure is 99 percent downward. You could hold the mast in place with a bobby pin. The 4 hex head machine screws do that a lot better. I think they are just drilled then cranked into the fiberglass to hold the step in position, but the step would stay where it is due to the intense pressure provided from tightening the shrouds. Think of the notch of an arrow once the string is pulled back to the chin. There is no chance of the arrow sliding along the string because of the pressure that holds it in place. This pressure only increases in the downward direction when the boat is sailing.

This is why people sail for decades with rotten mast steps and have no problem. I don't recommend that. 

Bob Franklin

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[Robert Franklin]

Sounds like you know a lot more about metal than I do. 

You'll figure it out.

Replacing the step is straightforward.  

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[darin doherty]

That is interesting.  I can see the tops of some small socket head screws.  With all the debris in the way, I haven't been able to get a clear picture of the actual attachment.

I did take a piece of what had broken / rotted off.  It is some kind of alloy that is non ferrous.  It is very light, I filed a small pile of dust, and heated it with a torch.  I created a lot of sparks.

It did not melt like a piece of aluminum.  It got red hot, and when I tapped the red hot metal, it fell apart.  I know what it is not, but not what it is.  Mystery metal.

Darin 

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[Guy Johnson]

interesting pictures of the 10M mast step. 

Bob; Those big bolts in the pictures are keel bolts on the 10M. 

To the best of my knowledge the keel bolts on the 10M are Monel J bolts that were cast into the keel as it was poured. Removing Keel bolts from a 10M keel is impractical at best. 

My original mast step was steel. Replacement is aluminum. 

Guy

Puffin 10M #6

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From: pearso...@googlegroups.com <pearso...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of darin doherty <usf...@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2022 10:54 PM
To: pearso...@googlegroups.com <pearso...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [pearson ] P10 M Keel Bolts

 

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[Peter McGowan]

Would it be impractical to drill/tap in new bolts (threaded rod) or is this precisely why they’re J bolts (the lead is too soft to be reliable)?   Thanking my stars that mine did not loosen (maybe because a PO poured epoxy over them…)

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[Guy Johnson]

The best method for replacing keel bolts in a lead keel that I've seen is to drill a hole horizontally through the keel 8-12 inches below the top of the keel. This hole must be large enough to insert washers and nuts and attach them to the bottom of new pieces of threaded rod that are inserted in new holes drilled from the top. 

Here is another's description of the process; 

Here is how: Drill bolt holes within a few inches of the old ones, then fill them with fresh water. Drill a small-diameter hole horizontally, from the outside, to intersect the bolt hole. When that “pilot hole” is in the right location, the water in the new bolt hole will run out of the pilot hole. Dig a rectangular pocket with the pilot hole in bottom center of the rectangle. (The pocket will be large enough to attach a backing plate and a nut to the bolt when it is inserted through the new bolt hole from above.) Wrap the space between bolt and nut, before tightening the bolt, with epoxy-soaked caulking. Torque the bolt, and fill the pocket with epoxy-soaked glass fiber.

https://www.practical-sailor.com/mailport-ps-advisor/sistering-keel-bolts

Keep in mind that drilling in lead can be tricky, it's easy to melt the lead while drilling and effectively cast the drill bit into the lead. Keep the bit cool and well lubricated. 

Guy

Puffin 10M #6

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From: pearso...@googlegroups.com <pearso...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Peter McGowan <mcgowa...@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2022 12:33 PM

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[darin doherty]

Thanks for the info.  Being "J" Bolts, they would probably be very difficult to remove.  So, yes, no removal is going to happen.

I will know more once I get the mast out of the way and get the pile of matter that was the former mast step out.  I saw Dan's pic of the area before and after removing the stock step, but the before was hidden by water, the after did not show any other fasteners, and it looked like the nuts were removed from the keel bolts.

I have some ideas that I will finalize after I get the area drained and cleaned up and can get some good measurements.

I will keep you posted.

Darin

P10M, 108

Port Canaveral, Fl.

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[Dan Pfeiffer]

I would attempt a variation on this.  Might be trickier than possible but I would try to use a 2" cylinder with holes threaded perpendicular for the new added keel bolts.  Bore a 2" hole laterally through lead about 10" down, bore two 5/8 holes down from bilge into 2" bore, insert cylinder and thread studs into it.  This would be way more secure than the big pocket in the description.

BUT, it may be nye on impossible to get the alignment of the holes to work out.  That's the trouble I think.  But if you could it would be better.  The vertical hole alignment would be the harder.  The 2" bore could be done with some play and the cylinder could be set in thickened epoxy to fill the gaps. Same could be done for the vertical holes.  But again, it's all maybe a bit too tricky.  But making the parts would be easy.  All SS since it will be buried in epoxy in the lead, or maybe bronze? 

Dan Pfeiffer

On 2022-10-20 11:54 am, Guy Johnson wrote:

The best method for replacing keel bolts in a lead keel that I've seen is to drill a hole horizontally through the keel 8-12 inches below the top of the keel. This hole must be large enough to insert washers and nuts and attach them to the bottom of new pieces of threaded rod that are inserted in new holes drilled from the top. 

 

Here is another's description of the process; 

Here is how: Drill bolt holes within a few inches of the old ones, then fill them with fresh water. Drill a small-diameter hole horizontally, from the outside, to intersect the bolt hole. When that "pilot hole" is in the right location, the water in the new bolt hole will run out of the pilot hole. Dig a rectangular pocket with the pilot hole in bottom center of the rectangle. (The pocket will be large enough to attach a backing plate and a nut to the bolt when it is inserted through the new bolt hole from above.) Wrap the space between bolt and nut, before tightening the bolt, with epoxy-soaked caulking. Torque the bolt, and fill the pocket with epoxy-soaked glass fiber.

https://www.practical-sailor.com/mailport-ps-advisor/sistering-keel-bolts

 

Keep in mind that drilling in lead can be tricky, it's easy to melt the lead while drilling and effectively cast the drill bit into the lead. Keep the bit cool and well lubricated. 

 

Guy

Puffin 10M #6

 

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From: pearso...@googlegroups.com <pearso...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Peter McGowan <mcgowa...@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2022 12:33 PM
To: pearso...@googlegroups.com <pearso...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [pearson ] P10 M Keel Bolts

 

Would it be impractical to drill/tap in new bolts (threaded rod) or is this precisely why they're J bolts (the lead is too soft to be reliable)?   Thanking my stars that mine did not loosen (maybe because a PO poured epoxy over them...)

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[darin doherty]

Good afternoon All,

Now that I FINALLY have my mast out, and the step cleaned off, I was wondering if anyone has ever seen s step like this.

It is tied into the 4 keel bolts and is made of some kind of aluminum or magnesium alloy.

I am greatly hoping the bolts will come clean with a wire wheel.  I am going to build my own mast step and raise the bottom of the mast about 2 inches so I can also remove the corroded bottom of the mast.

Darin