Pearson 36

[robertm...@gmail.com]

This is a little personal because I have owned my P36 enthusiastically since purchase in 1980. This is the same model UMA made famous on the internet with Dan and Kika's 6 year youtube presentations.

My question is,

Does anyone know or would chance a guess, why Onne van der Wal entered into buying and renovating his P36 with what seemed to be considerable enthusiasm, then disappeared from the Pearson scene rather abruptly.

I suppose there could be reasons unrelated to the boat.

Bob Franklin

[Peter McGowan]

My sense - Onne and Tenley have a couch.  In other words, a life with a whole lot more schedule and commitments.  Chatting with Onne a few years back he loved that when cruising they had the most amazing views when they woke up each morning, it was like why would anyone buy a particular waterfront property when you could have a boat and access to an entire coastline.  During the same conversation, though, came the topic of consistent sailing conditions in New England.  So, you’re likely correct, it’s not the boat.  Onne and Tenley likely decided that in their world (and most of ours) if the kids are home, and it’s time to cruise, to hell with the weather, all aboard the goose…

 

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[John Getz]

They tired of pulling strings, bought an old Grand Banks (a 36 I think) and were doing a refit on that. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 11, 2022, at 10:25 PM, Peter McGowan <mcgowa...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[John Getz]

32’ Grand Banks

https://www.soundingsonline.com/features/onnes-new-goose

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 11, 2022, at 10:29 PM, John Getz <jwg...@gmail.com> wrote:

They tired of pulling strings, bought an old Grand Banks (a 36 I think) and were doing a refit on that. 

[Dave Cole]

I wonder if $7.00 diesel will affect his outlook ?

Dave

10M #26

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[Peter McGowan]

Maybe he’ll go this way…

https://atlanticyachtandship.com/hybrid-electric-yacht/

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[Dan Pfeiffer]

Interesting.   I've been out  only 7 times this season but my charger keeps careful track of watts into the battery and I have used about 75 cents worth of electricity at the local rates.  Would have been close to $25 in diesel. 


Dan Pfeiffer

On 2022-06-12 6:47 am, Peter McGowan wrote:

Maybe he'll go this way...

 

https://atlanticyachtandship.com/hybrid-electric-yacht/

 

On Sat, Jun 11, 2022 at 10:48 PM Dave Cole <dave...@gmail.com> wrote:

I wonder if $7.00 diesel will affect his outlook ?

 

Dave

10M #26

On Sat, Jun 11, 2022, 10:33 PM John Getz <jwg...@gmail.com> wrote:

32' Grand Banks

 

https://www.soundingsonline.com/features/onnes-new-goose

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 11, 2022, at 10:29 PM, John Getz <jwg...@gmail.com> wrote:

They tired of pulling strings, bought an old Grand Banks (a 36 I think) and were doing a refit on that. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 11, 2022, at 10:25 PM, Peter McGowan <mcgowa...@gmail.com> wrote:

 

My sense - Onne and Tenley have a couch.  In other words, a life with a whole lot more schedule and commitments.  Chatting with Onne a few years back he loved that when cruising they had the most amazing views when they woke up each morning, it was like why would anyone buy a particular waterfront property when you could have a boat and access to an entire coastline.  During the same conversation, though, came the topic of consistent sailing conditions in New England.  So, you're likely correct, it's not the boat.  Onne and Tenley likely decided that in their world (and most of ours) if the kids are home, and it's time to cruise, to hell with the weather, all aboard the goose...

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[john getz]

We have to give some thought to the comparative costs of fuel to rigging and sails. When Steve Dashew started building his FPBs (Fast Power Boat) on a hull like the Deerfoot sailboat he said the difference in cost of fueling efficient power and replacing a suit of sails for the same amount of cruising was nil. Granted he was talking about the wear on sails of long distance cruising. And then there was my lifelong cruiser-racer dad's attitude in his later years, "Anytime I can do 10kts straight upwind is great. I can go sailing on someone else's boat when I get there."

That said I can make the 20 gallon tank on my P36 last most of a year, and I sail year 'round.

John Getz

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[Dave Cole]

There seems to be very few power only boats that have truly efficient hulls.  Even amongst trawlers.   Regarding that electric repower; if you need twin 180 hp engines in a less than 40 ft boats, that's not an efficient hull design.

 

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[John Getz]

I guess they’re trying to get it to plane.   

 I jest. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 12, 2022, at 11:09 AM, Dave Cole <dave...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Robert Franklin]

Dan, and others.

I appreciate the electric benefits, but if you own a sailboat isn't the financial benefit meaningless?  I also appreciate the ecological benefits, but they fail to take into account the environmental consequences of abandoning one type of energy production for another. There is a lot of production involved in creating a solar grid, but  I never hear anything about the effect on the environment of that.

Bob 

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--

Robert M. Franklin, Esq.
145 Lagrange Street
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617 277 5900 Cell
email:  robertm...@gmail.com

[Dan Pfeiffer]

You mean meaningless because you should be sailing?  I think that's a pretty impractical expectation but I was just pointing out the day-to-day costs for the energy to run the boat.  Certainly the comparison to conventional diesel systems is much more complex than that.  I can tell you that my system cost about half of what the replacement diesel would have and the only deficit of significance for me is shorter range (25 miles on battery Vs 120 on a tank of diesel) which is not of consequence for the way I use the boat.  It would be for more serious cruising.  

I don't know what you mean by " the environmental consequences of abandoning one type of energy production for another".  And with an electric motor you are not limited to getting your charging power from a "solar grid" whatever that is.   I am reasonably sure that the efficiency of the electric system such as I have is much higher than the diesel system.  Probably 2 to 3 times?  So there is a net benefit there.  I am also reasonably certain that the production of my system components was lower in cost and environmental impact to that of the diesel engine I would have installed as a replacement.  And My LiFePo battery has the potential to last 30 years (likely won't).  It is also more recyclable than other batteries including lead acid and Lion. 
 
yI wouldn't sat the electric drive is better.  It is different.  Has advantages and disadvantages.  What is best for anyone depends on the way they use the boat. 

I posted lots of info on my electric drive system here:
http://dan.pfeiffer.net/10m/electric_drive.htm

Dan Pfeiffer

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[Peter McGowan]

Might have to change subject to Electric Propulsion Environmental Impact?  

For me comparing the environmental costs of producing the electric propulsion system (motor,, batteries, solar panels, charge controllers) vs a diesel propulsion system (motor, battery, fuel tank) sort of misses the point.  Once produced the electric propulsion system is done, just point it at the sun (that quite literally is all I’ve done for the past 2 years).  The other one, that needs diesel.  And once you start comparing the environmental costs of pointing a solar panel towards the sun with the environmental costs of drilling, pumping, storing, refining, transporting/distributing, and eventually combusting a fossil fuel (once, by the way, and it’s done) well… it’s a no brainer.

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[Jeff Griglack]

I suspect that Bob has run across oil company propaganda about the chemicals used in producing solar panels and batteries.  I have seen this too.  I suggest that this "information" be taken with a grain of salt, especially from a source that knew their product was causing climate change for at least the last 40 years.

That said, there are trade offs with any propulsion system.  You have cost to operate and range.  As the cost to operate goes down, typically the range goes down as well.  If you are fine with a shorter range, just to get in and out of the marina until you can put up your sails, you will probably be fine with an electric propulsion system.  If you need the range, you might not be.

Last weekend, I helped a friend deliver his boat from Milford, CT, to East Greenwich, RI.  We ended up motoring the whole way.  He had a 30 hp diesel, in a 33 foot boat, with a 35 gallon tank.  We filled the tank up before leaving and when we arrived, and used just under 10 gallons for about a 115 mile trip.  That means that he probably has just over a 300 mile range on a tank.  With an electric motor, we would have had to sail most of the way, or run a small generator on deck, but our speed would have been decreased.

If you are passage making, you probably care more about the range available.  My diesel should run for about 100 hours (50 gal tank, supposedly 0.5 gal/hour at hull speed).  When the time comes, I will seriously look at replacing the diesel with electric, and a smaller diesel genset.  I will tell you, from experience, that maintenance on an electric motor is much easier than on a diesel.

Jeff

------------------------------------------------------------------
| Jeff Griglack             "Jabberwocky" P-365 #269

------------------------------------------------------------------
| "Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent"
|                   - Walt Kelly
| 'Years ago my mother used to say to me, she'd say, "In this
| world, Elwood, you must be" – she always called me Elwood –
| "In this world, Elwood, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant."
| Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. You may quote me.'
|               —James Stewart as Elwood P. Dowd
------------------------------------------------------------------

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[David Walker]

I think Bob was referring to the environmental impact of the solar panel and battery manufacturing processes.  I worked in the semiconductor process field for over 25 years and I can say that a significant of amount of both liquid and gaseous waste is generated and must be neutralized and disposed of somehow. However these are one time byproducts at the time of manufacture and delivery.  Its pretty clear that solar panels have no continuous waste products during their lifetime, nor I presume sealed LiFePo batteries, leaving only end of life disposal.  If one assumes that electricity is a more efficient energy storage and transfer medium than diesel or gasoline, then the ;the answer is obvious, IF the performance meets the required specifications.  

An analogy is the historic evolution of fuels.  Wood  to Coal to Kerosene to gas to Diesel to Electricity?  Until recently  economics was the driving force.  We are fortunate that conversion to electric energy transfer will be driven by economics and be consistent with environmental goals.  

I'm watching the medium power 48V outboards being developed by EPropulsion as an alternative to my Tohatsu 4 stroke.  Range seems to be comfortable in the 40nm ballpark at  4 kts. Regeneration and solar would extend that slightly. t Just don't know if the investment  that is likely to be 2x the value of my P26 makes sense.  If I use only 20 gallons of gas a year, that is a long payback. I won't live to see it.

Dave Walker  Isabella, P26  1728

On Sun, Jun 12, 2022 at 8:23 PM Dan Pfeiffer <d...@pfeiffer.net> wrote:

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[Peter McGowan]

Its time for a company like Tohatsu to jump in with a 56v battery similar to those being used for snowblowers (super impressed with how my Ego made short work of the snow this winter) and other lawn equipment.  Batteries could be swappable with the outboards they make for other brands like Mercury, Nissan, etc.  The price of outboards (sans battery) would be good, not to mention the weight drop.

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[Robert Franklin]

Thanks.

David is on the track of what I was trying to say. I didn't do a very good job. Let me try againb.

 

It may feel good to buy a brand new Tesler and send your fossil fueled car to the crusher or to some third world country to be repurposed again as a fossil fueled car.

Is that really the best solution to the energy crisis and best for the environment

This approach (and it applies to boats, similarly) fails to look beyond the one issue of trading fossil fuel power for electric power in the hands of the end user.  It fails to examine the kind of things David touched upon, which is my concern when the by products of production are ignored.

Properly maintaining fossil fueled machinery, including cars, boats, hvac, etc. until the useful life has fully expired thereby preserving raw materials may be kinder to the environment.

The problem is that kind of prudence does not make for good politics.

Solar is trendy right now. But think about the conversion Dan and Kika have done on UMA, their P36.   I am not convinced the end result has been better for the environment when you take into account the diesel they threw away.  (I think they junked two diesels.)

Bob

 

 

On Mon, Jun 13, 2022 at 8:19 AM David Walker <dmwalk...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Guy Johnson]

Back in 2014 when we needed another car we leased a BMW I3 which is a battery electric car. When that lease ran out we replaced it with a purchased gas car because we need a greater range at that time.

Both vehicles serve their purpose and the gas car at 145,000 still continues to serve its purpose.

If I need to buy another car I will look for a hybrid. Probably at BMW 530 E.

DAN‘s conversion to electric has given him a tenfold increase in efficiency quite amazing overall.

Guy

Puffin 10M #6 

On Jun 13, 2022, at 4:05 PM, Robert Franklin <robertm...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[David Walker]

If I had the money I would go with an electric OB of some kind in a heartbeat if it had a 20 to 40 nm range. 90 % of my motoring is in and out of the harbour, maybe 15 min at a time.  A small inverter generator would solve the occasional longer passages if there was no wind. Sort of a non integrated hybrid. But I use do little gas it’s not worth it. 

But I have the equivalent investment problem with my house. In Marblehead we have a municipal electric co. My average bill is about $100/month. 

Payback would be very long on a solar system unless I could convert more of my energy usage to electric. Alas my old house has single pipe steam. Hard to get an electric steam boiler, snd expensive to convert to heat pump/hot air. 

Also I’m 68, do I won’t have a lot of time to enjoy after the payback!

Dave W,  Isabella P26 1728

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[Jeff Griglack]

A friend has an electric outboard and likes it.  I have oars.  Oh, I have a little 2.5 hp Honda outboard, but I have never put it on a dinghy.  I like to row out to my mooring.  It's good exercise, though, on a windy day, I can't help wishing my mooring was closer to land.

I put solar panels on my house in 2015 (I think).  I have no idea if they have paid for themselves or not.  I know that I haven't paid an electric bill in years, and Eversource owes me several hundred dollars.  They don't seem too interested in sending me a check.  Maybe I should send them a late payment notice. :)

The process of making solar panels is not without its by-products and waste.  The process of making ICE engines also has by-products and waste, and then running the engines produces even more by-products and waste.  Heck, one of the dirtiest industries is actually the clothing industry, but I'm not going to walk around naked (and you should all thank me for that).  The long term benefits of generating clean energy, I believe, outweighs the costs.  And solar cells are constantly getting more efficient.

As I said, I will probably not worry about replacing the existing diesel until it dies.  Then I will look at what makes the most sense.  it might be electric, or it might be another diesel.  We'll see.

If I remember right, Uma's diesel was just a hunk of rusted metal when they pulled it out.  Their initial electric motor installation, which lasted for years, was done mostly with recycled parts.  They dumpster dived for most of the wiring, and the motor was removed from a forklift.  The new motor does some regeneration, and should be powered by the solar panels once they get farther south.

Other channels that are doing electric motors are "Beau and Brandy Sailing" who have a P35 and used a battery bank from a Chevy Bolt, and "Rigging Doctor" who has a heavy 40ish footer and just built their own LiFePO bank from cells.  All these channels tend to spend more time with the sails up, using the auxiliary engine as an auxiliary power source.  When Herbie and Maddie (Rigging Doctor) crossed the Atlantic, they had times when they hit doldrums and waited for wind rather than motoring through it.

I am in the process of installing solar panels on my boat, which is a bit more problematic because of the extra mast and rigging.  My installation plan is two, 100 watt panels on each side (like wings) with each side going to its own controller.

Jeff

------------------------------------------------------------------
| Jeff Griglack             "Jabberwocky" P-365 #269

------------------------------------------------------------------
| "Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent"
|                   - Walt Kelly
| 'Years ago my mother used to say to me, she'd say, "In this
| world, Elwood, you must be" – she always called me Elwood –
| "In this world, Elwood, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant."
| Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. You may quote me.'
|               —James Stewart as Elwood P. Dowd
------------------------------------------------------------------

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[David Walker]

In effect, this will be similar to the inboard gas to diesel migration and the outboard 2-stroke to 4-stroke switchover.  I remember in the late 90's "you will have to pry my trusty 2-stroke out of my cold dead hands".  Problem was the early 4 strokes, except maybe for the pricey Honda's, just weren't very good.  When the total infrastructure to support E propulsion develops, people will switch.  Not everyone can or cares to  design and build their own system.

Dave W.

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[Daniel Hoffman]

Hi Jeff,

The other Dan, here, with the 31-2. 

I appreciate your comments on the electric motors. Hopefully, my Yanmar 2gmf will outlast me. 

Thanks.

Dan

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[Dave Cole]

I think going electric is great if it suits your needs.   

It's relatively simple and it can be very reliable.  

However I have motored more than 40 miles when the wind shifted and then died and I had to be back the same day.  

And I must admit that I have motor sailed more than I would like, to maintain a pace.  

I really think for my needs, that I should have at least 100 miles of range on the engine alone when the tank is full.

My gas engine Atomic 4 just keeps running and it has proven itself to be very reliable.

Because the boat burns so little fuel, the price per gallon at the Marina, while a benchmark, really doesn't matter to me, yet.

More concerning is the cost for me to get to the marina  via car.   It's just over a 2 hour drive from my house to the boat.

My other concern regarding boat fuel cost is the viability of the marinas.    I think a lot of big gas and diesel boat owners are starting to do some soul searching.

I have seen some big cruisers sell very cheaply recently.   Their values seem to be plummeting.     

I'm working with Tesla via a machinery contract and I have gotten to know several Tesla engineers.   Many of them drive Tesla's and the conversation of when, where, and how long it will take to recharge their cars before then can drive to X is a common topic.    Recently I was in Dayton, Oh meeting with Tesla and the Tesla engineer lived near Columbus, OH.  Upon leaving Dayton, he had to drive north of Dayton by 10 miles to get to a supercharger before he could drive home, which was in a different direction.    So Battery Charge level anxiety is a real thing.   It takes time to charge batteries.  If you have to rely on spending time at a dock to be plugged in to recharge your batteries, that's a lot different than spending 10 minutes at a fuel dock to fill the tank.  

So going electric could be good, depending on your needs, but it's definitely different as well.  

That said, I'll be shocked if we don't have at least one electric car in the next 5 years.   I also have plans to put a 6+ kw solar array on the south side of my house.  

My neighbor next to me already has one and the neighbor across the street also has a large array which is grid tied to help offset the cost of his electric ground water heat pump furnace.  

I live near a large Amish community and it's rare to find an Amish homestead around here that doesn't have at least 3 kw of solar panels.   They aren't connected to the grid, but they now have outside motion sensitive floodlights and led bulbs inside their houses and barns.  It's just not the same looking at old Amish barns loaded with solar panels!  ;-) 

Dave

10M #26

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