Tiller length?

[Jeffrey D]

All,

One project I want to tackle during the spring is the teak on my 10m. I’ve been eyeing the stock tiller and have been thinking about replacing it with something a little shorter by a foot or so. 

Aside from a shorter lever and a bit more effort to steer, are there any downsides? Does anyone have experience doing this? Would love comments or photos. 

Thanks!

[David Walker]

Don’t know about the 10M but the tiller on my P26 reaches almost the the bulkhead. Very annoying to passengers but when sailing in any kind of wind I appreciate all the leverage I can get.  You might want to try a temporary shorter till we in varied conditions before you make it permanent

Dave W. P26 #1728

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[Guy Johnson]

Remove and save the old tiller without damaging it. I think you'll be unhappy with a shorter tiller. 

You could just choke up on the tiller to see how a shorter tiller feels in strong winds. 

The idea of giving up that extra leverage because you don't need it most of the time seems like a really bad idea to me. 

Guy

Puffin 10M #6

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Subject: Re: [pearson] Tiller length?

 

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[Dan Pfeiffer]

I am making similar considerations.   I had a failure of my wheel steering (idler plate under pedestal rusted and failed cuz Edson thought it was a good idea to make it out of regular steel).  So to start this season at least, I will have a tiller.  And the OEM 10M tiller I have is very long.  I think it could probably be shorter but maybe not a foot?  Some experiments are in order. I like Guy's idea of choking up on the tiller to evaluate leverage.  Simple.  a telescoping tiller might be cool.  But that's more parts and likely fussy.

In general I would say if you have so much helm you can't handle the tiller, even a slightly shorter tiller, you are over-canvassed or otherwise out of balance.  easy fix.  shorten sail or get trim correct.  I find with those correct the steering on the 10M need never be heavy or unmanageable.   Mine is generally finger-light and I see no reason it can't be so with a tiller.  Maybe two finger light rather than one.

The 10M has a skeg hung rudder.  It is not balanced but, a skeg rudder behaves differently than a spade rudder.  Any rudder steers by generating lift.  A spade does it by changing angle of attack.  A skeg rudder does it by changing shape.  what difference does that make on steering?  I don't know.  are the loads different?  probably? I think the one advantage of a skeg from a performance standpoint is control and tracking when running in bigger waves.  But there is a drag penalty.  Sort of doesn't matter because the 10M has a skeg and that's not changing?  But it is still an interesting design question.  Can you get away with a shorter tiller with a skeg rudder?  

I would also consider whether everything you need is still within reach with the shorter tiller.  I think it probably is.  And sitting up on the coaming steering with an extension is awesome.  I am looking forward to trying out the tiller.   

A downside is that the feet of people sitting aft may get in the way of the tiller.  And my dog will have to sit forward rather than aft.  I think he'll adapt.  he's pretty smart.  An upside may be that with a below-deck auto pilot you can engage it and flip the tiller up vertical to a bungee on the backstay and have the cockpit fully clear. But all that has nothing to do with the original question. sorry for the tangent.

So try the shorter tiller.  What's the worst that can happen?  You switch back.  The emergency tiller is maybe a foot shorter and it seems fine even when it's dragging all the wheel steering gear along for the ride.  You've all tried your emergency tillers, right?

Hey, and also, you know how you can tell a tiller is more reliable than a wheel?  The backup for a wheel is a tiller.

Dan Pfeiffer

[Jeffrey D]

I knew I wanted a tiller on my next boat (this boat), but the sweep of it is a lot for passengers and crew. I’ll try a different tiller and see how it feels. I also wonder about the efficiency of a tiller pilot with a shorter lever. 

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[Dan Pfeiffer]

Tiller pilot will attach about 18" fwd of rudder post regardless of overall tiller length.  Shorter tiller won't affect that.

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[Dave Cole]

Hi Dan

What failed on your steel plate?  Did one of the blocks tip or break off?   Or?

I need to put that on my inspection list.

It not an easy thing to get to. Last time I think I used a mirror and flashlight to look at it.

Dave

10M #26

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[Dave Cole]

Whoops, I didnt see your pictures right away.  Thanks for that.  

That answers my question.

Dave

10M #26

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Not all boats with the Edson steering have the same steel idler plate. the one I salvaged from 008 was bronze.  You should be able to see it through the access in the 1/4 berth on the 10M.

Mine only lasted 47 years.  However, I am not in a challenging corrosion environment. 

Dan Pfeiffer

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[Dave Cole]

Im pretty sure mine is steel as well.

I looked at it closely a few years ago and it had a little rust on it, but not too bad.  As I recall I sprayed it down with chain and cable lube.  

Time for another look.

Thanks,

Dave

10M #26

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[Guy Johnson]

Dan wrote: 

In general I would say if you have so much helm you can't handle the tiller, even a slightly shorter tiller, you are over-canvassed or otherwise out of balance.  easy fix.  shorten sail or get trim correct.  

I agree with Dan - balance, but there will be a time when you get hit by a puff and the boat starts to round up or a smaller crew member is steering, then you'll need the full length of the tiller while you adjust the balance of the sails. 

Guy

Puffin 10M #6

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[Jeff Griglack]

While I hate to bring up Uma because what they are doing though most of the boat is radically different from the original design of their boat, has anybody looked at what they are doing with the tiller?  They had wheel steering on their P36, and they are planning to replace it with a tiller.  Since they seldom use the tiller, and they already have a below deck auto pilot, they are making a telescoping tiller that can be folded completely out of the way most of the time.  Their reasoning is that they mostly steer with either the auto pilot or the wind vane.

You could take an idea similar to that.  Make the new tiller out of Aluminum tubing, like a whisker pole, (or possibly SS tubing) with the longer section on the outside and a shorter section on the inside.  When you need the extra leverage, you can extend the tiller to full length.  You could put a locking mechanism to keep it from collapsing at a bad moment.  You would probably have to work with a machine shop to get what you want.

Or, you could just cut down the wooden one and shove an aluminum extension on the end when you need it.

Just some thoughts,

Jeff

------------------------------------------------------------------
| Jeff Griglack             "Jabberwocky" P-365 #269

------------------------------------------------------------------
| "Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent"
|                   - Walt Kelly
| 'Years ago my mother used to say to me, she'd say, "In this
| world, Elwood, you must be" – she always called me Elwood –
| "In this world, Elwood, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant."
| Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. You may quote me.'
|               —James Stewart as Elwood P. Dowd
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[Dan Pfeiffer]

Or you could ease the main (because you're always ready on the sheet) or feather up.  But yes, you need enough leverage to handle whatever the loads get up to.  But relying on added leverage from a wheel or longer tiller is a poor substitute for proper handling of the boat.

I'll have more impressions of the 10M with a tiller after we get back on the water in May.  Including sailing in 20+ knot winds with proper waves - my favorite. 

Dan Pfeiffer

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[David Walker]

I would be very wary of any kind of metal (aluminum or even SS) telescoping tiller. In 40 years of sailing I’ve never had anything telescoping on a boat that did not seize open or closed at the most inopportune  time, no matter how  much preventative maintenance. This includes whisker poles, boat hooks, boarding ladders and hiking sticks. It’s not just corrosion or dirt, but any bending or slight dents or knicks. 

A well engineered  folding design might work if the joints were strongly locking. 

Dave Walker. P26. 1728

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[George Dubose]

Aluminum? Baahhh!!!! Any idea how many telescoping boat hooks I have had to replace because they don't scope anymore. Just frozen.

If the tiller is annoying to extra people in the cockpit, have 'em on the rail...LOL.

My P26 had a tiller that broke, I had a smaller copy made like the tiller of the America. I saw that tiller at the NY Yacht Club once and it had a fist on the forward end and need 4 guys to hold it. The closed fist on the end of my tiller got a lot of comments. Sadly that tiller is all that remains of my 1970 P26.

George/Skylark

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Germany

[Jeff Griglack]

Oh, so you mean aluminum boat hooks that get dunked in the salt water and are never washed down with fresh water start to freeze up after awhile.  Hmm, I never would have expected that. :)

Sarcasm aside, you could also use stainless steel or titanium alloy if you want.  You could use wood, and make it with a tapered dovetail (or some other removable joint) on the end so that you can add an extension piece onto it when needed.  I'm just saying that, regardless of material used) you might want to have a way to extend it to full length for full leverage.  It's just a suggestion anyway.

That said, when I bought my P30, the tiller was broken.  I used a generic tiller from a consignment shop for the first season, then I made my own.  When I made my own, I shortened it by, I think, all of 6 inches.  Everybody I talked to about this talked doom-and-gloom about how I would miss the 6 inches.  I never missed it.  The boat sailed fine, and I never had a situation where I needed more leverage.  Keep in mind that the P30 is a very different animal from the P10M, but lots of people complained about the large, scimitar rudder and how hard it is to control (it isn't).

Just more food for thought.

------------------------------------------------------------------
| Jeff Griglack             "Jabberwocky" P-365 #269

------------------------------------------------------------------
| "Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent"
|                   - Walt Kelly
| 'Years ago my mother used to say to me, she'd say, "In this
| world, Elwood, you must be" – she always called me Elwood –
| "In this world, Elwood, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant."
| Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. You may quote me.'
|               —James Stewart as Elwood P. Dowd
------------------------------------------------------------------

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pearson-boats/be0b87c2-9eed-28d5-ea63-70473dbd329b%40george-dubose.com.