P 26 Masthead

[brian kulas]

So, I think I'm missing something here...  The attached pic shows two gouges where the halyards have worn through the masthead right into the mast. For the life of me, I can't figure out why this rigging is set up this way. My plan is to run the halyards internally, per Dan's method from his website. But why is it like this in the first place?

Also, in the pic you can see most of the additional bolts and screws around the masthead. So far, no amount of pounding and prying had gotten the thing to budge.

Any ideas regarding frozen masthead removal?

Brian Kulas
P 26 Windwalker
Manitowoc, WI

[JR Maxwell]

There are supposed to be 2 sets of pulleys for each halyard.  Looks like you are missing 1 set.

Removal - heat gun applied multiple times.  Maybe penetrating oil, but be careful the heat gun doesn't ignite the oil.  On the other hand, maybe that will free it up!

Bob

P30 #940

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[RICHARD USEN]

Have you tried an impact driver on the screws? Have you tried drilling them out and making new holes? My 1978 P-30 had four sheaves and internal halyards. Does your mast have two exit plates where the internal halyards exit? Did your mast have two small sheaves on the big pin?

 

Dick Usen

T-33 #100

Hopscotch

Boston

--

[Peter Ogilvie]

If you are trying to remove the mast head, have you removed all the fasteners holding it on??  Looks like there is at least one pop rivet still there.

Looks like the sheaves in the mast head are too small a diameter.  The wire halyard sawed into the mast because it didn't clear the mast extrusion at the angle of pull on the halyard.  Not a good thing and certainly fatal for rope halyards.  The sheaves either need to be larger or the axle pins moved closer to the edge of the mast head so you get a fair lead.

Use the jumper cable trick to heat fasteners so they'll be easier to remove.  Put a bolt in the postive lead of a jumper cable.  clamp the negative lead as close to the offending bolt as possible.  Touch the positive lead to the head of the fastener which essentially sets up an arc welder.  It will heat the fastener to a cherry red if left in contact long enough. It works really well as you are heating just the area of the fastener and not burning up the surrounding area plus getting the fastener way hotter than you can with a MAPP torch.  Other than using the trick to remove all the fasteners on 44 year old mast, used it to get corrosion welded bolt that passed through substantial aluminum castings on the self steering vane.  

Having said the above, the hardest fastener to remove is not one that is threaded into aluminum but one simply passes through an aluminum casting like cleats, etc.  Getting the bolts out of the self steering casting took something north of 25 iterations heating with the jumper cable and quenching with penetrating oil over many days. 

If you don't have a battery powered impact driver, get one.  Have a older 12v Hitachi that works wonders in pulling fasteners from anywhere.  Just be judicious in drivers use as it will twist the head off a corroded fastener right quick.

Aloha
Peter Ogilvie
'Ae'a, Pearson 35 #108

[Jeff Griglack]

Brian,

I think it's pretty obvious that you need a second set of sheaves on that empty shaft in front of the mast head.

I am trying to remove the cap on the bottom of my mast so I can rewire it.  It was screwed in place with slotted screws.  The slots are, as you might expect after 43 years, not holding a driver very well.  I have soaked it in PB Blaster and have heated it with a propane torch.  I have not tried the battery trick, yet.  I have a manual impact wrench (the kind you hit with a hammer) that I can try on it, but I suspect I'll be drilling them out.

Jeff

------------------------------------------------------------------
| Jeff Griglack                  "Blithe Spirit" P-30 #182
------------------------------------------------------------------
| "Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent"
|                   - Walt Kelly
| 'Years ago my mother used to say to me, she'd say, "In this
| world, Elwood, you must be" – she always called me Elwood –
| "In this world, Elwood, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant."
| Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. You may quote me.'
|               —James Stewart as Elwood P. Dowd
------------------------------------------------------------------

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[d...@pfeiffer.net]

On 2015-04-15 00:13, Jeff Griglack wrote:
>Brian,
>I think it's pretty obvious that you need a second set of
>sheaves on that empty shaft in front of the mast head.

>...


That is not a shaft for sheaves, it is the pin for the headstay toggle.

Looks to me like the masthead has the wrong sized sheaves as Peter O (2) suggested.  But some more photos would help.   I can't find a note about what size mine were but that chafing condition was not present.

Agree about the utility of an impact driver.  Also get the best driver bits you can find for the best fit in the fasteners.  It makes a difference.


Dan Pfeiffer

[brian kulas]

Hello All -

Here is an update on my P26 Masthead project:

1) I successfully drilled out the screws and removed the masthead. The
only problem I really had was in being smart enough to remove ALL the
screws. I didn't understand that the antenna mount and the masthead
light mount both were screwed into the masthead. Also, thank goodness
for 1/2 inch drills and good drill bits.

2) The attached pic shows the underside of the masthead. It sure looks
different from the one Dan has on his "Internal Halyards" page.

The right side is where the former wire halyards exited the sheaves,
and then wore the grooves into the masthead and mast that were noted
in my previous picture.

The right side is the bow side. So, with the main sail side being the
"bottom" set of sheaves, I can drill out room for the main halyard to
descend through the masthead, and down my mast, to exist near my main
mast-mounted winch.

The jib situation is much less clear. I guess I'll exit the top sheave
with my halyard, and cut an entry into the mast a foot or so below the
masthead for the descending line (all on the left/stern side)). The
sail side (on the right) is perplexing to me. If I let the halyard
just exit the sheave as it does now, I'll end up with the rope
probably falling into the nasty rope-eating gouges shown in my earlier
pic.

I could remount the sheave more to the right, and cause the halyard to
exit well outside of the mast, but that messes with the main halyard
being able to descend nicely into the mast.

Arrgh!!

I really hope I'm missing an obvious solution here. Help!!

Also, any thoughts on whether I should replace the (obviously
wire-grooved) sheaves??

--
Thanks,
Brian

[RICHARD USEN]

Those sheaves seem awful small.

Dick Usen
T-33 #100
Hopscotch
Boston

-----Original Message-----
From: pearso...@googlegroups.com [mailto:pearso...@googlegroups.com]
On Behalf Of brian kulas

[d...@pfeiffer.net]

Your masthead does look like mine but the mod that was made for internal halyards (which could have been done by Metalmast Inc. - maker of the mast) was done in a tidy fashion on a milling machine rather than with hand tools as I did it 20 years ago (before I had a mill).  Otherwise it looks to me like the same unit.  And I only cut slots on the one side because I only ran the halyards internal only on starboard.  So I had the main running over the aft sheave and the starboard jib over the forward.  The port jib halyard remained external so it could be used as a backup for the main if it failed.  I also had a spin halyard on a block on the bail.   I did make that internal buy cutting an exit slot about 2 feet below the mast head.  It exited at the bottom on the starboard side.  I had the topping lift in there too but I don't recall how I ran it at the top of the mast.  Probably out an exit slot a foot or two below the mast head and then to a block hanging on the back of the mast.   And I ran the starboard jib halyard to an exit on the port side so I could use the jib halyard winch with it. 

I think you have the incorrect sheaves in there.  Take them out and measure them.  The diameter at the bottom of the groove should be greater than 2x the distance from the sheave axle pin center to the front edge of the mast by something like 1/4".  I wish I had measurements of mine but I don't seem to.  Maybe I do on a drawing but I don't think so.  I'll look. 

The wire groove sheaves will be fine with rope halyards unless you are using something exotic I think.  And there is really no reason for that.  I would just stick with standard Sta-Set or equivalent.  

---
Dan Pfeiffer

[Guy Johnson]

It may be that the sheaves are too small, but it also looks like the sheave axle is place too far aft in the masthead. 

The axle on the left side (aft) of the picture looks closer to the edge putting the sheave in a better position to avoid interference. 

Guy

Puffin 10M #6

> Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2015 09:28:22 -0500

> Subject: Re: [pearson ] P 26 Masthead

> From: brian...@gmail.com
> To: pearso...@googlegroups.com

[Bill Robart]

Take a close look inside the masthead and see if there is room for larger diameter sheaves. If so that may give you the additional "overhang" to clear the edge of the mast. I'd also check to see if the aft set of sheaves is a different size.

On my P-33-1 the previous owner had run the halyards internally by doing what you are trying.  By freeing up one of the forward sheaves he was able to install a second internal jib halyard and could have installed a second main halyard but I guess he didn't see any need for that, nor did I.

Suggestion - use pop rivets to install the masthead fitting.  There is no need for any real strength to hold it on and the rivets are much easier to remove with a drill than any screw or bolt. The same goes for the ends of the boom.

Bill Robart

--
Thanks,
Brian

[d...@pfeiffer.net]

I think you can attach parts like these (mast head, boom ends) with machine screws.   I tapped mine for 1/4-20 screws.  If you treat the screws with Tef Gel or Lanocote or Blue Locktite or some such goop you will be fine and it will be a lot easier to remove them in the future.   Don't be tempted to use the fine threaded screws (e.g. 1/4-28 or 10-32).  There will be more threads which is good but the thread depth is not as deep which is bad in the aluminum parts.  Use the correct size drill for tapping a hole in aluminum.  A good tool place can set you up with all that.  Look for an industrial tool supplier, not Home Depot etc.

Dan Pfeiffer

[George DuBose]

I found that using hex head bolts or machine screws with a hole for an
allen wrench prevented stripping straight or Phillips slots. ... in the
case of future removal.

George DuBose
Paul-Niessen-Strasse 14
D-50969 Cologne, Germany
Mobile: +49.160.481.1234
Skype: georgedubose or call +1.347.284.6443
Website: http://www.george-dubose.com

S/V Skylark
Compagnieshaven
Enkhuizen, NL

[Jeff Griglack]

I have been trying to remove the base and cap on my mast (P30).

The cap (at the top) came off with no problem. The PO thud probably removed it and put the machine screws back using either Lanicote or Antiseize. I've owned the boat for 15 years and never touched these screws. All it took was a big screw driver and a little elbow grease. Then I was able to worry the SS cap off the top of the aluminum mast.

The base, on the other hand, has not been simple. I broke my impact wrench trying to get the screws to turn, and they have not budged. I'll keep trying, but I may finish the rewiring job without even getting this off the mast.

If only somebody had used something on the screws holding on the base,

Jeff

--

[Bill Robart]

Dan,

I agree that it is possible to tap and screw the parts together, by what do you gain by doing so.  The time it takes to do one screw is way more than it takes to do all of the rivets.  When it comes time to remove the rivets a simple 2 second hit with the drill and they are gone.

With the load on all of these "caps" being compression there is no need for any strength other than simply holding them in place when rigging and de-rigging the boat.  These particular parts are rarely removed so the chance of the thread treatment failing is relatively high. In addition the difficulty of drilling out a stainless screw from any aluminum structure is a difficult, tedious, and often frustrating chore. There is no chance of the rivet failing to come out easily and there is no difficulty in doing so.

Bill

--

[d...@pfeiffer.net]

That's fine.  You should stick with the rivets.  I would recommend bedding the rivets in the same goop you would use with screws.  I will continue to use my method of tapping for machine screws in applications like the spar end fittings as I find it a superior approach.  I have no issue with taking more time for what I think is the better way.  What I think I gain is a more robust mounting that can be easily disassembled for service with basic hand tools should it be necessary.   One reason I enlarged the fasteners on my P26 mast head fitting from #10 to 1/4 was that the 1/4 are more robust and easier to remove should they become corroded.   But I have always applied goop of one sort or another and never had a problem.  These days I am in fresh water so it is not the most representative test. 

The fasteners I used are hex head or philips pan head (#3 philips for the 1/4 screws).  I have used the allen type that George mentioned (properly known as socket headed cap screws)   but they tend to have taller heads that can be snag or cleareance issues in some places.  The heads are also a smaller diameter which may also be an issue in some places.  The hex head can be had in a low head type which can also be handy.  But the #3 philips when driven by the correct #3 driver bit is pretty easy to work with.  

Dan Pfeiffer

[brian kulas]

Hello All - Thanks very much for your input.

This is where I'm at: Run the halyards over one sheave, instead of
two. See the attached sketch, as words being to fail me!!


--
Thanks,
Brian

[Andrew Griswold]

Your diagram looks fairly solid for running internal halyards.  However, I would strongly advise against using the masthead sheave for a spinnaker halyard; although you can certainly use it as a secondary jib halyard.  The spinnaker halyard should be positioned on a crane, outboard of the forestay in order to function properly.  You'll likely get the spinnaker head fouled on the stay.

[d...@pfeiffer.net]

The spin halyard is on that block on the bail out front so it is forward of the headstay and so it can swivel and maintain a fair lead to accommodate the side loads the spinnaker puts on the halyard.  You will have problems if you fly the spinnaker from a jib halyard that is exiting the mast on the internal sheaves. 

My recommendation from my experience with my P26 would be to run the starboard halyards internally so aft is main and forward is starboard jib halyard and leave the port jib halyard external (riding over both sheaves) so it can also serve as a backup for the main halyard.  Then also have a spinnaker halyard running to the swivel block on the bail.    You can bring that into the mast if you want by cutting an exit slot about 30" below the mast head. 

At the bottom the halyard exit slots should be staggered in height and be up high enough that you can reach up at the mast to jump the halyard. That's like 7 to eight feet off the deck.   Think how you would reach up for it if you were standing there.  

If I still had a P26 I would also change the sliding gooseneck boom downhaul setup.  I would fix the gooseneck so it does not slide up/down and eliminate the downhaul.  I would add a halyard winch for the main and use that to set main luff tension rather than the gooseneck downhaul.  This would be a superior setup for reefing as well.  I upgraded my downhaul to a 6:1 tackle but it was still clumsy and problematic when reefing.  Had I kept the boat I would have made these changes. 

 

Dan Pfeiffer

[Guy Johnson]

Have you fixed the problem with the forward sheaves? 

In your picture they look like they are positioned too far aft in the masthead fitting. 

Guy

> Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2015 11:32:12 -0500

> Subject: Re: [pearson ] P 26 Masthead
> From: brian...@gmail.com
> To: pearso...@googlegroups.com
>

[Peter Ogilvie]

That's the way I converted my external jib and main halyard to internal.  The P35 has a stainless masthead fitting that had to have a hole milled in the base for the halyards to pass through.  The halyards run on the sheaves on one side of the masthead.  The sheaves on the other other side have a spare external halyard just in case one of the internals fails.  I'm a cruiser so a backup halyard that will work with either jib or main is important to me.  Had an internal halyard fail because of chafe inside the mast on a passage once.  Had a spare halyard so it was no big deal.  Without it.  Would have had to go up the mast in the middle of the Pacific if I hadn't had that spare.  

Leave the spinnaker on the swivel block off the bail on the mast head.  Side loads when reaching with a spinnaker will ruin the halyard and your day right quick because of chafe if you use a mast head sheave.  Boats with internal spinnaker halyards typically have the halyard on a swivel block with the tail entering the mast via a slot cut in the mast a little ways below the masthead.  There probably is some chafe on the halyard where it exits the mast but not the 90 degree side load that your plan would have.  Get your binoculars out and have a pleasant time wandering the docks looking at the big boy racers to see how they run their spinnaker halyards.

 

Aloha
Peter Ogilvie
'Ae'a, Pearson 35 #108

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[RICHARD USEN]

Time to get some decent 1/8” drill bits and drill out your hardware. I keep forgetting the alloy bits, Cobalt, Vanadium, or whatever. I’ve managed to successfully drill some #10 screws and save the threads, so it can be done. If you get lucky w/ the drill, and if you’ve previously ground off the heads, the bit’ll grab and spin right into the mast. Or, you remove the stubs and the cap’ll come right off. It’s simple enough to then install new screws elsewhere.

 

Dick Usen

T-33 #100

Hopscotch

Boston

 

From: pearso...@googlegroups.com [mailto:pearso...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Griglack
Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2015 10:56 AM
To: pearso...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [pearson ] P 26 Masthead

 

I have been trying to remove the base and cap on my mast (P30).

[JR Maxwell]

I believe cobalt bits are best for drilling stainless.

Bob

P30 #940