31-2 holding tank

[sides...@aol.com]

This may not be of much help but here is the original replacement tank drawing that I purchased from Kracor in 2017 for about $600.

It may help sizing a new one

Bob

Blue Moon  31-2

[Alptraveler]

Thank you very much, I do have that spec sheet. Maybe I even got it off of this website,not sure. Short of actually sending the companies the actual tank, there are some important measurements needed for them to duplicate. I.e. the side triangle sides, the triangle at the back of the tank, the length if the spine, the triangle.side that the tank foot sits on. Once I get to the boat and confirm all of those measurements I should post them on this site for others who end up in the same predicament. 

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[Desmond McGinn]

I find myself in need of a new holding tank. I saw this diagram and used it for the measurements. Thank you very much for those by the way. Awesome of you. I attached them to an estimate request. My jaw still hurts from hitting the floor. They came back with an estimate of a little over $3k. I dont know if I did something wrong with the estimates, but that was way away from what I and others were thinking it could be. Curious if you've gotten better results or know of anyone who has?

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[Alptraveler]

Triple M quoted me $1221 + ship and Dura Weld quoted me near $1000 for my tank. I went with Triple M just b/c they were so easy to work with and answered all of my questions. I do not have the tank yet, probably before Xmas. The tank will not be installed til the spring as the boat is 5 hrs away and up on the cradle. I prepped all of the new hoses to be install ready. Triple M uses polypropylene and Dura Weld uses polypropylene or polyethylene, same price. I also went with Triple M b/c their ports have a backing plate and the ports are flush at the outside front of the tank. Dura Weld's port stuck out from the outside of the tank. The way my 31-2 is set up I didn't feel as if I had the xtra rm to work with and wanted to duplicate what I prese tly have.

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[Michael Cyr]

Get a composting, or more accurately, dessicating, head. Seriously, carrying around a tank full of shit water is one of the worst parts of boating.  I went with a new Airhead https://airheadtoilet.com/ for my boat.  I recently found another one on ebay for $500 and am going to use it in a cabin I have on my land.

mike in maine

P33-1 Brizo

[Jeff Griglack]

I recently heard somebody talk about their problems with their composting head. They said they had maggots. Can you talk about that? Do you think they were not using it correctly?

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[Michael Cyr]

I have read about that happening.  If flies are allowed access to the internal components because the lid is not being closed consistently, or because the screen on the air intake is bad, then you can get eggs/maggots.  The  Airhead  has a small very low consumption 12vdc muffin fan that pulls air into the chamber thru the screened port and out a vent on the cabin top (never had any smell from it).  Leaving the lid open also interrupts this airflow.  To fix the situation you have to thoroughly clean the unit, including final rinsing with very hot water I believe.  The chamber is easily removed from the boat and the top part just requires unscrewing the air vent.  We've had ours for two seasons.. no maggots.  Occasionally, just after use, there is a kind of musty foresty odor but once the lid is closed and the fan has a chance to get the airflow going, it disappears. Once it didn't and turned out it needed a bit more peat moss.  I've battled odors with holding tanks for years and years so this is nothing compared to (not to mention having to change a toilet joker valve!)

Mike in Maine

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[Desmond McGinn]

Ahhh thanks for the info!!! I may look into getting them to do that for me as that is wayyyyy cheaper than what the first place quoted me. Also, looking at your pictures, my tank cracked in about the exact same place. Except i have two crack. 

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[Alptraveler]

I figure at a 30+ yr old tank that is exposed to sub zero winter temps all of these winters will age the plastic. I decided to replace vs fix. Since you are considering replacing, consider replacing your hoses with high end hpses as well as increase your vent size. 

I think it was Dan P who turned me on to Triple M. They were fantastic to assure me on the quality of their product. At least give them a call, that might help you with your decision.

When I install my new tank I am going to add closed cell foam as a "cushion" at the 2 contact points of the tank to the hull. I am also adding more robust webbing to secure the tank so it doesn't bounce around or shift (not convinced that is why she finally cracked, as I think age alone did that, however, while I am doing this I may as well do this right).

Good luck in your decision making.....

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[Desmond McGinn]

I've been pondering this for quite a bit. I liveaboard my p31-2 so my black tank is pretty important. Haha. I think 30+ years does play a factor. My boat is down in Georgia. So we dont really deal with much of the cold. Winters are short at about 3 months and might get down to the teens. Typically 20-30s. But we do get the hot. So that could be a factor. 

I am pretty sure that when I first got the boat I had an overfill event. To the point where it got into the vent line. And had a battle with smells. The crack didnt show itself till several months later. When the smell got bad. And i think it was after a 'weird' pump out. Then I noticed there was crud under the tank. I then tried to fix it with gflex. I also replaced the vent line. Then jammed my deck water line into the vent line and forced water through. It worked fine. 

That lasted a month or so, till the next 'weird' pump out event. By weird I mean it took nearly 3 tokens. Tokens here last about 2 minutes. And this is a new machine. I noticed I would get a steady stream then it would gurgle for a bit, then a stream and then gurgle. Kept repeating. But eventually it drained. The attendant here constantly remind me that one token should be sufficient. When I got back to dock, I tore the vbirth apart and looked under the tank and sure enough there was black water. The gflex repair had failed. I did a quick patch with a plastic weld kit. Its holding for now. My concern is what will happen at the next pump out. I think thats the true test. And possibly the weak point here.

I suspect that the vent system might be a little too small for these tanks. My vent line is new. The hull vent is not clogged. The fitting on the tank is clean. But i think its only a 3/8" fitting. Thats not very big. I'm no engineer, but I feel it might be too small for this tank design. And since your crack is in the same place as mine (except i have two 4" cracks staggered), i think that might be a flex or stress point when the tank is under vacuum. 

I did reach out to Tripple M to get a quote from them. I think that if there is a problem with it flexing under vacuum, that would probably not be an issue since they are using 3/8" hdpe where our tanks were .25". So that extra thickness I imagine wouldn't flex as much. 

But there is still the vent issue. I think you're correct in increasing the size. I'm curious about that myself. I imagine it requires a new hull vent of a larger diameter, which I'm not really thrilled about the idea of installing. 

I think I'm going to give the plastic welding another try. 

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[Alptraveler]

So, when I was considering "fixing" my poly-e tank vs replacing (sticker shock on replace killed me) I read many reviews that said most patchwork would be a temp fix. I even called a few local places that make tanks for farm equipment. Ifffff the crack was at the top, hand down I would have gone for a repair. Because the split is at the bottom where the weight of the insides sit, urine and poo, I decided gravity along with wave action was asking too much of a repair. Seriously, I got grossed out by urine leaking from the tank I decided I to not chance my luck. Poly-e has a long shelf life but s'posedly poly-p is s'pose to behave better in warm conditions (where u live). Ifff you decide to repair, a local tank guy told me of this new product. I will attach it. I reviewed the website, it seemed promising and he seemed impressed with the product as well.

Now, as far as the vent size. From my readings from all of the guru's, 1" minimum is "suggested". My oem vent came as the typical screened fuel vent, 3/8". I "thought" it was clean, I blew air thru it, used a straw cleaner to clean it from the outside in as well as inside out. It wasn't until I had already made the decision to change the size to 3/4" and the actual vent to a mushroom vent that I had a reality ck....when I cut off my old vent it was 100% clogged. See pic attached. Not to dis my gender, female, but if I can change out my hoses, increase the side of the vent hole in the hull, replace the vent, than I am sure any handy type person can. It seemed daunting and I lost sleep but when all is said and done, all of the worry was wasted time. Just read about each task. For the hole size increase in the hull for the vent: tape the hull to protect it, piggy back the 2 hole-saw sizes together, do a reverse start on the hole, change it to forward and saw away. After that, you are golden.

Parts: we changed out all hoses to top of the line hoses,raritan, and ordered new antisiphon with a duckbill as well and official 3/4" holding tank vent hose(not the cheap clear water hose that the p.o. had on it). We also changed out all fittings. Vent= white marelon.

Like you, I put 2 and 2 together, wondering if a clogged vent line was the culprit to my tank crack, or was it age, or was it all of the above? At this point it is a mute question. I sense this was not the 1st rodeo for this tank leak since there was dried debris(urine,whatever) under the tank when I got digging away to the tank area. No wonder the p.o. told me he never used the head...sh_ _head of a person for not being up front with me. I am hoping the new vent size with relieve the implosion/sucking-in of the tank when I get pumpouts. 

If you order new hoses, measure liberally, just not too much like we did,unfortunately. We inflated ours too much on our order and will now try to sell the extra at our marina, on line via Great Lakes Sailing, FB Marketplace,etc. I know it will sell, it is top shelf reinforced hose, just an extra step.

Ok, I think I have said too much. I think I now know too much than I really want to know about our system. At $100+ per hr we decided to tackle the problem on our own. Seriously, I couldn't believe how easy it was. Now....just waiting for the tank and the boat to be out of storage to do the swap.(I didn't destroy the old tank yet in case we needed it).

Ask away if you have any questions.

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[Alex Alvarez]

A few questions I have while I redesign the new holding tank.

Anyone know about these vertical piping pictured in the dometic diagram to extract waste? What they're called, prior experience with them, pros/cons with a bottom /front face mounted fittings?

Any good reason to add more complexity in the shape (more failure points, less volume / depth),  besides less residual waste after pump out?

Alex

P31-2

[Peter McGowan]

Mine (a Vetus) has both fittings: bottom one gravity feeds to thru hull, and top one (with one of those dip tubes) connects to deck fitting.  Makes for a tidy install.  If tank was pump only then the bottom fitting would become nothing more than a potential leak point.

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[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yes, Dip tubes.  I have only dip tubes on my custom holding tank.  All fittings are on the top.  Why tempt fate?  Only reason to have a fitting at the bottom is for a gravity drain?  Which might be useful offshore IF your tank bottom was above the waterline.    Otherwise you still have to pump and then you're better off again with the dip tube I think.

I have two dip tubes.  One is connected to the deck pump out fitting.  The other would be for an offshore pump out to a thru-hull if I had one.  But I don't do it's a spare in case the primary fails.   I also have fittings to hook up a hose for back flushing the tank at pump out time.   All the fittings are on top and as close to centerline as possible to minimize back-flow into the hoses when heeled.   I have a photo somewhere...


Dan Pfeiffer

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[Alex Alvarez]

Thanks all. Dip Tubes is exactly what I was looking for. I didn't understand the Dometic diagrams without a pump (seems like a good way to fil your boat with water if it's below the waterline) so thanks for the additional context Dan.

The adventure continues :)

[Alptraveler]

Ok, just finished installing my replacement holding tank, upgraded my hoses, increased my vent size and style of vent ( got rud of the O.E.M. fuel vent style). We ended buying a polypropylene tank from the east coast( they were easy to work with). 

Thanks to all who contributed insight which gave me the confidence to do the job.

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[Alex Alvarez]

Looks great! We’re about to do the install as well in the coming weeks. Did you get pictures of the vent install?

[Jeff Griglack]

Can you give more information about where you sourced the tank?  You say you got it "from the east coast."  Is the name of the company "East Coast" something?  I always like to find good vendors.

I am asking because the holding tank of my boat is smaller than I want (most people who know me know that I'm full of s**t).  I am thinking of either upgrading to a larger tank or replacing the whole system with a composting toilet (and this is not an attempt to start that discussion right now).

Thanks.

------------------------------------------------------------------
| Jeff Griglack             "Jabberwocky" P-365 #269

------------------------------------------------------------------
| "Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent"
|                   - Walt Kelly
| 'Years ago my mother used to say to me, she'd say, "In this
| world, Elwood, you must be" – she always called me Elwood –
| "In this world, Elwood, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant."
| Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. You may quote me.'
|               —James Stewart as Elwood P. Dowd
------------------------------------------------------------------

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[Alptraveler]

The company I used was Triple "M" Plastic Products, Inc,Katrin is your contact person and very knowledgeable. Dura Weld out of Florida also makes tanks but we felt he was on the curt side,however, they offer both polypropylene and polyethylene tanks where Triple M only deals with polypropylene tanks. Katrin made a point to tell me they add a backing plate on the inside of the tank where the fittings go, not the outside

(space was important to me so having it taken away by a backing plate on the outside cautioned me). B/C we have such a weird tank configuration to fit in the space, we just duplicated what we had( perfect fit BTW, we held our breath as we removed the old and installed the new). There plenty of companies, and cheaper, if you can find one with the rt measurements. 

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[Alptraveler]

We strongly considered the composting version as some are true believers. In OUR SITUATION, The Great Lakes, the marinas do not provide any method of emptying the tank unless you are willing to sneak the resevoir into the bathroom and dispose down the toilet. We also can not dump into the lake ( thank goodness). So FOR US, we decided to duplicate. I also looked at resale value and sale'ability of the boat with a.compost in the Great Lakes. From what I read it appeared as if there is a small niche of people who would choose the boat at resale time vs having a holding tank. Like you said, not to open this up for discussion compost vs holding tank, our decision was made by us as to which way we wanted to go. Our boat,our decision. If others wanted compost than good on them.

On Mon, May 22, 2023, 8:39 AM Jeff Griglack <grig...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Mike Mayer]

Hi Jeff,

I too used Tripe-M-Plastics for a holding tank in my P30 around 6 years ago.  It's still working great, they had good customer support at a fair price I thought.

Mike Mayer

P30 #475

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[Daniel Hoffman]

Thanks! Those photos look just like my boat, for good reason, of course. 

I should have contacted you when I saw you were getting one so I could have them make 2.

I've been putting a bit of sodium percarbonate in the tank after a #2 and it's made a world of a difference. But the tank needs replacing. 

Also, I do believe my vent should be replaced. Sorry if I missed it, but what did you use?

The sails are on now. 

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[Jeff Griglack]

Thanks for the info about where you bought your tank.

------------------------------------------------------------------
| Jeff Griglack             "Jabberwocky" P-365 #269

------------------------------------------------------------------
| "Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent"
|                   - Walt Kelly
| 'Years ago my mother used to say to me, she'd say, "In this
| world, Elwood, you must be" – she always called me Elwood –
| "In this world, Elwood, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant."
| Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. You may quote me.'
|               —James Stewart as Elwood P. Dowd
------------------------------------------------------------------

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[Mike Butler]

Hello Alp traveler,

Thank you very much for this info.

Can you provide part number and manufacturer/retailer of the 3/4" mushroom vent?

Much appreciated.

Mike Butler

Vela

P 31-2, 1987, Hull 92

Sent from my iPhone

On May 22, 2023, at 9:05 PM, Last Resort <lastre...@gmail.com> wrote:

If it's not too late, you'll want to put the pump out line in place BEFORE you secure the tank...will be alot easier. Looks GREAT!!!

On Sunday, May 21, 2023 at 6:31:36 AM UTC-4 alptr...@gmail.com wrote:

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[Alptraveler]

Mike, 

My 3/4" mushroom vent came from West Marine, model # 161935, $29.99. I think I went with WM cuz I knew it would be an easy return if I couldn't fit the vent outside lip under my toe rail decking. As it was, I made it all fit nicely, tho a 1" would have been nicer. My hoses I sourced out from various places cuz I wanted the best of the best....air vent hose(vs a water hose that was in there as a vent hose) and a high quality hose for the tank.

I think I already attach to one of my post the old vent that came with the boat, a fuel tank vent. After removal I crosscut it. Yikes, no wonder my tank failed....there was not venting. An this AFTER I had already cleaned it.from the inside as well as the outside.

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[Alptraveler]

How'd your larger vent install go? I was scared to do it but after the fact it was pretty easy. Go for it. I included directions in one.of my posts.

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