Just found this Pearson 30 Owners Guide had not seen it before...Cutless question...

[Tim Smith]

Good eve.  

The Guide,

https://pearsonyachts.org/models/p30/docs/pearson-30-owners_guide.pdf

Considering a Cutless bearing replacement.

The Cutless bearing strut/removal shim question:

Have any of you fabricated a shim to displace the Cutless from the strut without pulling the propeller shaft?  If you have what material did you use, what shape was effective, and what were dimensions relative to your shaft diameter?

Prior owner fabricated a shim that he used to tap with hammer to displace the Cutless bearing, then complete removal.  He would soak the bearing in PB Blaster then use shim to dislodge the bearing from the strut.  He never pulled the propeller shaft, simply pulled prop, shimmed then pulled out cutless, replaced cutless, replaced prop.

I am studying emails.  Plenty of discussion on Cutless access cuts, Cutless sizing, did not yet see much on shim for removal.  Welcome thoughts.

Thankful. Stay well. 

[Tim Smith]

I am looking at this Cutless bearing, what are trade-offs from choices you might suggest..

https://www.deepblueyachtsupply.com/johnson-naval-brass-cutless-bearing-apex

Thankful. Stay well.

[Bob Maxwell]

We hoped to do what you describe on a '77 P30.  We failed.  Most struts have a single diameter bore for the cutless bearing and it's possible to make a split sleeve to drive the bearing out with the shaft in place.  The P30 has a stepped bore - smaller inner diameter in the front inch or so.  There is inadequate clearance between the front of the strut and the shaft to drive the bearing out.

With the shaft out, I replaced the bearing years ago without much drama.  It was easy to drive out to the rear.  Not so this time.  The bearing resisted penetrants, heat and harsh language.  All I managed to do was peel the rubber bearing liner from its bronze sleeve.  Eventually I made 2 axial cuts through the cutlass sleeve and removed a segment.  Then I was able to pry out the rest of the bearing sleeve.

Fun with boats.  Good luck.

Bob

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[Dave Cole]

My boats in fresh water, Lake Erie.  When I replaced the bearing I had to cut it in two spots with a hacksaw to get it out.  It was really stuck.  I tried to pull it out with a  threaded rod puller.  No go.   If your in salt water I can't imagine it will be any easier.

Dave

10M #26

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[Jeff Griglack]

On my P30, the PO had epoxied the cutlass bearing into the strut, then he covered the strut with fiberglass and epoxy to try to make it more hydrodynamic.  When the time came to change the bearing, I had to remove the shaft, cut the bearing in 2 places, and peal the parts out.  Then I had to clean all the epoxy out of the inside.  Then I removed the strut and all the fiberglass around it, retapped the retaining hole, and got a new screw for it.

I reinstalled the strut with 4200.  Reaching the bolts under the gas tank (since removed when I switched to electric) was a little bit of a challenge.

As was mentioned before, the strut has a lip on the front that stops the strut from sliding forward.  That lip would make it hard to slip anything in between the shaft and the inside of the strut that would allow you to push the bearing out with the shaft in place.

Jeff

------------------------------------------------------------------
| Jeff Griglack             "Jabberwocky" P-365 #269

------------------------------------------------------------------
| "Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent"
|                   - Walt Kelly
| 'Years ago my mother used to say to me, she'd say, "In this
| world, Elwood, you must be" – she always called me Elwood –
| "In this world, Elwood, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant."
| Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. You may quote me.'
|               —James Stewart as Elwood P. Dowd
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[George DuBose]

I have seen cutlass bearing removers that I believe work around the
prop shaft. They weren't cheap. https://strutpro.com/

https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pearson-boats/CAJj5SXLnDqaQRgRBjmiHhtJ50fZwkcjj4Kv3aTorOLJ-XJ_Vbw%40mail.gmail.com.
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Mobile: +49.160.481.1234
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Video interview on YouTube:
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Personal website:
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Galleries:
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Short video of Skylark's vacation:
https://vimeo.com/133183259
Password: SkylarkNY

S/V Skylark
Compagnieshaven
Enkhuizen, NL

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I just made a "tool" to remove my cutlass without the prop shaft in place.  Worked very well on mine but mine has always been relatively easy to extract.  I took a delrin rod and drilled a 9/16 hole through it.  Then I turned it down to just a wee bit less than my prop shaft diameter and cut a bunch of jagged ribs in it.  Then I cut it in half at an angle and ran a length of 1/2" threaded rod through it.  When the rod tightens down on it it spreads the two halves apart and the jagged ribs dig into the rubber in the cutlass.  The one-size larger hole lets it all shift when tightened.  I set it in place and tightened it down holding the threaded rod by hand and then was able to tap the cutlass free.  Worked great for me but like I said, mine has never been very hard to remove.  

Several weeks ago I sprayed penetrating oil into the set screw holes (I have three).   I repeated that a few times since and again yesterday.  The oil had spread pretty well all around the cutlass.  I used LPS KB-88 which is supposed to be a bit better than PB Blaster in some tests.  I think it's been about the same for me. 

If the cutlass had been more stubborn but my tool was able to still grip it I could have used a socket on the threaded rod to make it more of a proper puller.   The socket would need to be just bigger than the OD of the cutlass but not as big as the OD of the strut.  But I don't seem to have a socket quite that big (1-1/2"). 


Dan Pfeiffer

[Tim Smith]

Thank you Dan, Jeff, George, Dave, Bob:

Appreciate the insight.  Sounds like a tapering strut diameter aft will create difficulties with shaft in place.  Tantalized because I sure wish I knew what my last vigilant PO meant when in 2006 he wrote in another forum:

"I have 2 metal shims that sit on the shaft and I tap out the old bearing. Lather up the new bearing in grease and slip it in. Steve"

I am trying to reach him.  Will let you know how that goes.

In the meantime, I will study the strut more, start locating the set screw holes, and research shaft and prop removal and retaining registration points as needed.  Going to take a close look at the gem of a tool from Dan above.

Thankful. Stay well. Tim

Tim Smith

tbsm...@gmail.com

617-536-1222 D

720-530-2971 C/T

617-933-7606 F

www.linkedin.com/in/tbsmith/

 

 

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[Robert Franklin]

Dan,

Did you mean to say in the last paragraph of your tool explanation ID of the strut?

Bob

On Sun, Apr 25, 2021 at 6:41 PM Dan Pfeiffer <d...@pfeiffer.net> wrote:

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[Dan Pfeiffer]

No.

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[Dave Cole]

I'm pretty sure the cutlass bearing I removed was originally  a press fit.  I couldn't get the replacement in by tapping it.  So I cut a slot in a dowel and threaded in some emery cloth, chucked that into a drill and polished up the interior of the hole.  

That took a while but the replacement bearing slid in after that.  There were two or three setscrews holding it in place, so it's not like it's going to fall out.  

Its very possible the bearing I replaced was original to the boat.  They last a long time.   I may not need to replace it again.  But if I do it should come out a lot easier.

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[George DuBose]

I would be wary of sanding pieces so they "fit" better. The cutless
bearing, the flanges on the propeller shaft and transmission are all
beasties to remove. I once sanded the interior bore of a flange for the
propeller shaft and once I could get it to "slide" on, it was too loose.

I used the "socket" in between the prop shaft and the output shaft
using long bolts to pull the two flanges together pressing out the prop
shaft. Then I went with a split coupling for the prop shaft and that
makes life much easier.

I still spend way too much time lying on my stomach on top of the fuel
tank.

One can always add more set screws, but don't overtighten them and
distort the bore of the cutless bearing.

George/Skylark

https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pearson-boats/CAD5jJo0Xk08F0Vb95sxZzwrcBsM2SLgb4y6XEokspaV568Um-g%40mail.gmail.com.

[Dave Cole]

You do have to be careful, however a tight press fit on the cutlass bearing is overkill.  If it's too tight and you try and pull it in place and it gets stuck halfway, what do you do with it?  

I suspect they originally pressed in the cutlass bearing with a hydraulic press before the strut was installed. 

If you just shine it up, you should only be taking off a few thousandths.  

After I shined it up, it still required a threaded rod to pull it into place and it was coated with lube.  

If the replacement slides right in without cleaning up the hole, it's probably the wrong size.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pearson-boats/20210427083809393012.684a975e%40george-dubose.com.

[Daniel Hoffman]

Digging up an old thread because my 31-2 needs a new Cutless Bearing (I'm told it's spelled with an "e".).

The marina will rent me a hydraulic cutless bearing removal tool. I still have to get the prop off first. 

Supposedly, they need to be replaced every ten years or so and that surprises me because there's not more discussion of it here. I suspect that a contributing factor to mine needing to be replaced is the shallow, sandy waters of the Middle River and Chesapeake Bay generating lapping compound in the bore.

Has anyone had success changing one without removing the shaft on a 31-2? What size should I order, or should I just have the marina get one for me once the original is removed?

Daniel Hoffman 

"Fourth and Goal" 

On Mon, Apr 26, 2021, 10:37 AM Dan Pfeiffer <d...@pfeiffer.net> wrote:

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[Daniel Hoffman]

Answering one of my own questions with a quote from Binnacle.com: 

Cutless Bearings

Is it a "Cutlass" or "Cutless" Bearing?   Noun   Cutlass Bearing (plural Cutlass Bearings)   (nautical) A bearing on the drive shaft of a vessel, usually made of brass with an inner grooved rubber lining that is lubricated by the surrounding water entering the grooves as it rotates. It is a variant of the Stave bearing quotations   When you replace a drive shaft on your boat, it is also a good idea to replace the cutlass bearing where the drive shaft exits the boat.   Usage notes   The original term is cutless bearing, but that is a trade name (Johnson Duramax Marine), and the corruption "cutlass bearing" is in common use.

[Bob Maxwell]

I can't answer your specific question, but I can offer 2 comments. 1) Yes, it's cutless. When the design was developed, it was significant because it cut the shaft less than the prior designs. 98% of people get it wrong, so congratulations. You nailed it.

2) Typically the cutless bearing is replaced when there is notable play of the prop shaft. It's not on a calendar basis.  If there's little or no play in your prop shaft (wiggle it by hand near the propeller), then it doesn't need to be replaced. If there is a fair bit of play, it's time to do it.

Bob

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[Peter McGowan]

Interesting, Daniel.  I was wondering if they still trademark it so did a Google Search, and guess what showed up?

Johnson Cutless, the original, true Cutlass bearing, only available from Duramax Marine. These rubber bearings have oil resistant nitrile polymer lining.

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[Daniel Hoffman]

 

First setup and beefier version. Neither worked for me. I used an old MAPP torch to heat it and put a lot of pressure on the nuts. That's a lot of mechanical advantage!

It looks like I have three options:

1: Pull the fuel tank to get to the strut bolts and have a shop press it out or

2:  pull the shaft and saw it out which will certainly damage the bore. 

3: go with hydraulics. 

What do you all think? 

Daniel Hoffman 

Fourth and Goal 

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[Bob Maxwell]

The first time I did one on my P30, it wasn't too hard to drive the bearing out.  The second time, it wouldn't budge.  I eventually used a sawzall to split the bearing lengthwise. Then I was able to compress it a little and drive it out. I was careful and it made only the slightest of nicks on the ID of the strut. That's not a structural or functional problem. I have no explanation for why one came out easily and one didn't.

FWIW, a professional mechanic pulled the cutless bearing on the boat beside me in the yard this spring. I wasn't there when he did it, but the old bearing is on the ground with a linear cut through it.

Bob

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[Jim Keszenheimer]

I pulled my shaft last year so decided to replace my bearing. It would not come out so the saw was the only solution. Note damage was minor and didn’t affect the bearing at all. The photo below shows how stuck it still was at the sides after cutting. The torch helped it out. 

Prop removal was also a bear. MAPP was not hot enough but oxyacetylene for 5 secs did the trick!

Jim Keszenheimer

Outlet

P10m

On May 23, 2024, at 11:30 AM, Daniel Hoffman <rp51...@gmail.com> wrote:



 

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[Daniel Hoffman]

Thanks! 

I borrowed a tool from the marina to get the prop off. It was a thick brass part that screwed onto the end and was designed to shock the shaft when struck with a hammer. It worked and the puller I purchased for the job had pretty much nothing to do. 

I never pulled the shaft before. 

Gotta suck it up and go for it! 

Dan

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[Daniel Hoffman]

Thanks a lot Bob. 

That's the path I'm going to take. 

Dan

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[Dave Cole]

I replaced the cutlass bearing on my 10M a few years ago.   I had a similar rig but everything was steel.  Nothing moved.  I had also rigged up a big 3 jaw puller.  Nothing.

As I recall I destroyed the puller.  I also tried propane heat.  Nothing.

Make sure you remove the set screws in your strut!  I don't see any holes where the setscrews were in your picture.  I believe in my strut they were on the side of the strut. 2 or 3 of them.

They were filled in and painted over many times.   A sander found them.  

I pulled the shaft and sawed out the shell with a hacksaw.   I went slow so I did minimal damage to the strut.  

In hindsight I would use a sawsall to cut the shell.  Just be careful and go slow.  Use a long sharp blade.  

There is plenty of metal around the shell so you are going to have to really mess up to severely damage your strut in place with a saw.

I would not pull your strut!   That would require a realignment to your engine.  You don't want to go there.

If you were to hire this job out, they would try and remove your shaft and when it would not come out easily, they would simply cut it and order another one. 

It's a labor vs materials thing.   I spent probably 4 -6 hours removing my 7/8" bronze shaft.  I reinstalled it and it's been fine ever since.

But at marina labor rates it would have been cheaper to cut the shaft and replace it.  

Perhaps your shaft would come out easier.  

Heat helps a lot to get the shaft free.   But make sure your bilge is free of fumes before you fire up a torch in there! 

Use lots of sheetmetal and foil to keep from catching things on fire.   Keep water at hand.   A fire extinguisher, etc.

Some marinas have a hydraulic rig to pull cutless bearings with the shaft in.   You might want to ask.   

But after you get the shaft out it's a couple of hours of sawing, tapping, swearing, etc and you will have the shell out.

Make the saw cut, apply moderate heat, and rerig your puller and it will likely pull out.  

Dave

10M #26

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[Daniel Hoffman]

Thanks, Dave.

That's excellent advice, particularly about the strut. The shaft is off center and I'm told it was to clear the rudder. I hadn't considered that it might need a torch to remove 

The marina does have a hydraulic cutless bearing removal tool and some of the parts are in the photo without the wood.

It's in terrible condition, but it should function.  It seems to me that the tremendous force of that rig should be in the same range. Others disagree.

Dan

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[Dave Cole]

This is the setup I looked at way back when:

https://strutpro.com/product/manual-repair-yard-kits-non-hydraulic/

https://strutpro.com/product-category/repair-yard-kits/

Notice the strut pro kit says it goes up to 20 tons.

You won't get 20 tons with two screws like that.

It might take 10+ tons plus some heat to get it to move.

If the hydraulic setup is available, I'd try it if you can avoid pulling the shaft.

If not I'd just cut it out carefully.  But then you need to get the shaft out.

Good Luck,

Let us know how it goes!  

Dave

10M #26

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[Guy Johnson]

The forward edge of my propeller shaft strut has a lip on it that prevents the cutlass bearing from going any further forward. No amount of force will be able to press that Cutless bearing out.

Guy 

Puffin 10M #10

On May 23, 2024, at 5:53 PM, Dave Cole <dave...@gmail.com> wrote:



Dan

<image0.jpeg>

On May 23, 2024, at 11:30 AM, Daniel Hoffman <rp51...@gmail.com> wrote:



<1000008549.jpg>

<1000008553.jpg>

 

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[Dave Cole]

Right, it has to be pressed out in the aft direction.  Thats what he is trying to do.

Dave

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[Guy Johnson]

Yes, I understand that. The lip prevents any pressure from being put on the brass part of the cutlass bearing. Therefore, the tool pictured could not press out my cutlass bearing. 

Guy

Puffin 10 M number six.

On May 23, 2024, at 6:59 PM, Dave Cole <dave...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Dave Cole]

My strut had/has quite a gap between the shaft and the lip of the strut.   But my shaft is 7/8".   The brass was visible and I could get a socket against the brass shell after the shaft was removed.  If there is no brass shell visible that the split sleeves can contact, then I agree a puller wont work.  Im my situation the sleeve was corroded in place so it wouldnt move anyway.  

In hindsight, I should have removed the lip from the strut when I had it apart.

Dave

10M #26

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[darin doherty]

Greetings all,

So I replaced my cutlass bearing a few months ago on my 10M.  Like Guy said, the actual line boring did not go through the full length of the strut, only the depth of the cutlass bearing.  So, that left a lip on the forward edge of the strut that prevented any kind of puller/ pusher/ or direct tool to bang the cutlass bearing out from the front to the rear.  

I used a reciprocating saw and a metal cutting blade to carefully slice almost all the way through the bearing then a chisel to separate and lift one side of the cut.  I was then able to drive it out fairly easily. It was a frustrating PITA job, but it came out without any more damage to the strut.  I also noticed there was already a groove in the front lip where someone else had done similar.

I was tempted to use a die grinder with a rotary burr to remove the lip, but I didn't.

I wish I had pics to share, but by the time I got to some of the jobs, I just wanted to get stuff done.

Darin

P10M Charis

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[Guy Johnson]

I replaced the prop, prop shaft and cutless bearing this spring. But didn't stop to take pictures. 

I have a new to me flexofold geared folding prop 12x7 with a direct drive Atomic 4. I'm very happy with the prop. 

Guy

Puffin 10M #6

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From: pearso...@googlegroups.com <pearso...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of darin doherty <usf...@gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2024 3:11 PM
To: pearso...@googlegroups.com <pearso...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [pearson ] Cutlass bearing removal

 

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[Dave Cole]

How does it do in reverse?

What did you have previously?

Dave

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[Guy Johnson]

Previously I had a 12x8 fixed 2 blade, a 12x8 Michigan folder (non-geared) and a 12" maxprop.

Ther Flexofold works well in forward and reverse and always opens. Also closes without one blade hanging down :>). 

Didn't think to take any pictures. 

Guy

Sent from Outlook

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Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2024 11:37 AM

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[JimR]

Thanks Guy.  How does the Flexfold compare to the Maxprop?

Jim

[Guy Johnson]

Hmmm Flexofold v. Maxprop. 

I have a direct drive Atomic 4, which means a 1:1 overall gear ratio in forward and a noticeably lower ratio in reverse, maybe 1.3:1. 

That means the prop is rotating quickly for a given through the water speed. 

A pitch in the range of 6-8 is about right for an atomic 4. The Max prop has a relatively large blade area, which I think favors a lower pitch. 

So,  I set my Maxprop up with a pitch of about 7 and it worked fine. Easily feathering under sail and quickly switching between forward and reverse, but when some hard fouling developed I don't think the prop was fully rotating to the desired pitch. Obviously cleaning the prop helped the situation. 

Max prop hub is larger than the hub of a folding prop. Max is tricky to set the pitch on and install on the shaft. 

I think if I had a v drive with it's 2:1 reduction gear and resulting greater pitch on the prop it would have been more resistant to hard fouling in the sense that there would have been more rotation of the blades to crush those young barnacles. 

Flexofold is lighter, easy to install, pitch is not adjustable. 

I've only used it to travel from my mooring to the dock, a very short trip. No fouling to deal with, boats only been in the water since Saturday. 

Good drive in both forward and reverse. Easily got up past 6 kts in forward with a clean bottom. 

Guy

Puffin 10M #6

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From: pearso...@googlegroups.com <pearso...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of JimR <jim.rom...@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2024 2:41 PM
To: pearson-boats <pearso...@googlegroups.com>

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[JimR]

Thanks Guy  (and George).  I need to replace my prop soon.  Currently a Maxprop but am looking at alternatives.  

My apologies to all, this is related but not a direct response to this thread. I should have started another thread to ask for opinions on props.

Best,

Jim

[Daniel Hoffman]

I'm going back to the marina tomorrow and will see if they can press out the bearing with the hydraulic press. If that doesn't work, I'm going to pull the shaft. 

I've never done that before. Does anyone have any advice on how to do that without messing it up?

Daniel Hoffman 

Fourth and Goal

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[Dave Cole]

Rule number 1 in prop shaft removal is not to pound on the transmission flange.   Bearing damage and trans failure can result.

The propshaft flange needs to be separated from the transmission shaft, then the flange  needs to be removed from the shaft.

How difficult is is to remove the flange depends on type of flange, corrosion, etc.

There are some tricks to use to remove the propshaft flange.  Some are on youtube.

As I mentioned before, many yards consider the propshaft and flange to be disposable due to high labor costs.  They cut the shaft and toss the flange and shaft and just buy a new one.  At $200/hr that maybe justifiable in many cases.  

Dave

10M #26

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[Guy Johnson]

Most recently, I unbolted the coupler from the engine, pulled the engine and then used a puller to remove the coupler from the shaft. 

Without removing the engine. You can get a couple sets of bolts for the coupler of varied length. Place a socket or other spacer between the coupler and engine flange. Tighten the new bolts which will start to push the shaft out of the coupler. Repeat with longer spacers until the shaft is free. 

DO NOT let the bolts hit the back of the transmission housing, if you do you might damage the output shaft bearing, seal or housing. 

I've used both methods. 

Guy

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[Dave Cole]

I tried to use the trans flange and the shaft flange to get the shaft out but it didn't budge that way.   I ended up rigging a puller (in the very limited space) to get some pressure one the shaft, then I used a propane torch to heat the flange as well, and then I tapped on the flange on top of that to get it to break free.  All sorts of penetrants were used but they didn't end up doing much.    I am sure that the flange was pressed onto the shaft originally, and installed before the engine was set in place. .   Using a torch in a confined area is not fun..  But some sheetmetal and foil shielded the hull sufficiently.  A bucket of water and fire extinguisher was on standby.   Running the bilge blower will remove any gas fumes.    But you likely have a diesel which is safer in situations like this.

When you get the shaft out you will realize that it is likely that your prop shaft seal/stuffing box/ shaft hose is likely in need of service as well.    This is the time to do what you need as removing the prop shaft can be a challenge you won't want to repeat for several years! 

It's a rabbit hole.  

Dave

10M #26

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[darin doherty]

So removing the coupling was a task and a half.  I removed the bolts.  Got a piece of all thread 8 nuts and washers, and 4 jam nuts.

I cut the all thread into four 5 inch pieces.  

Slid the coupler apart.  Put the all thread through the coupling holes. Put a washer, nut and jam nut on the engine side.  A socket with a diameter smaller than the shaft between the two coupler halves.  A washer and nut on each all thread on the side away from the engine.  Tighten the all thread trying to keep the coupling spacing.

Works well for me.

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[Daniel Hoffman]

Thanks Guy.
Thanks Dave.

That's a great hint on how to get the flange off. I'm heading down today and will keep you posted.

Daniel Hoffman
Fourth and Goal

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[Daniel Hoffman]

Update on Cutlass bearing job.

I used Dave's method to get the flange off. Unfortunately, I put the all-thread I had here on the Middle River back in my garage I'm Philadelphia and had to go to Home Depot to buy four long bolts and 12 nuts. I had to use a small socket and then a deep well one to remove the flange. It was a lot effort turning the nuts a third of a turn at a time, but it was otherwise simple.

The shaft was worn badly at the cutlass bearing end and at the stuffing box. I had a local machine shop make me a new shaft and reface the flange and ensure it fit correctly. It cost a bit over 700 dollars. Oh well. We'll have these things.

I used my friend's setup to press the cutlass bearing in. The shaft easily went in first, then the bearing, then I slid the shaft into the boat and pressed the bearing in. The job went so smoothly that I was worried 😛

I've yet to put the safety wire back on the bolts at the flange.

The motor was bouncing around so much when I had them drop it in, that I was worried that something serious was wrong, but it settled down. It needs about 900 RPM to idle without rocking so badly. I was concerned but all is well.

Next step is a sun-shade for the bow, then  cockpit cushions, then a new dodger and bimini .

Thanks again everyone for the solid advice.

Daniel Hoffman
Fourth and Goal

[Dave Cole]

Thanks for the update.  If you have a diesel, they can tend to rock at low speeds.

I launched my boat a week ago.   The travellift guy set it in the water with the straps on so I could check for leaks and start it up.  He walked away.  It started up right up.  Its an Atomic 4 gas engine that runs really well.  I had it running and the travel lift guy came back and I said Im ready to go.  He looked at me funny and said, oh you're the guy with the electric motor, thinking the engine wasnt running.  Nope, its a gas engine and its running.

He couldnt hear it.     😃. Thats one of the benefits of the old gas engines.

Dave

10M #26

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