How to reef my main sail

[Peter Baughman]

Hey, sorry - this is kind of a silly question.  I'm pretty sure I know how to reef my main sail, but there's a bunch of extra hardware on my boom and I'm not sure if I've got something rigged incorrectly.

Right now, the reefing line is tied fast on the underside of the boom with a bowline (marked 1 in pics), goes through the sail (marked 2 in pics) then through a pully (marked 3) past a second unused pully (maybe for a different sail with a second reef?) through a little metal loop (marked 4) to keep the reefing line out of the way, then to a winch on the boom (marked 5) and is finally cleated near the front of the boom (marked 6)

My questions - 

  1 - Anybody know what the extra pullies are for - there are two near where the reefing line is tied off on the port side of the boom, and one extra on the right.  I suspect the extra one on the right is for a second reef, but my sail doesn't have holes for a second reef

  2 - Up near the tack of the sail, the Cunningham normally hooks to some straps that are tied on both sides of the sail and form a loop that sticks through the sail.  When I reef, there's no such strap (labeled "how to attach??").  Do I stick a loop of webbing through it and tie the other end around the boom?  Do I just hook the Cunningham through the sail?

Thanks!

[Jeff Griglack]

Does the boom have an internal outhaul for the main?  If not, I suspect the small block near the end of the boom (next to #1) is meant as an outhaul.  I suspect that your first reef block is #1.  I suspect that block #3 is your second reef point, and the unnumbered one next to it is for a third reef point.  At the gooseneck, I would expect to see a ss hook on each side of the boom.  The first reef tack would be hooked onto the hook on one side, and the second reef tack to the second hook, but you could use a line to tie the tacks down.  I suspect the "how to attach" in you picture is your first reef point, and that should be attached to the horn, if you have one; I can't tell because there are no pictures of the gooseneck.

The cunningham is there to depower the sail when the whole sail is up, and is ineffective when you are reefed (because the attachment point is below the first reef point).  It works by flattening the main by tightening the luff of the sail.  I have one on my P30, and it works well.

------------------------------------------------------------------
| Jeff Griglack                  "Blithe Spirit" P-30 #182

|                                   "Jabberwocky" P-365 #269
------------------------------------------------------------------
| "Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent"
|                   - Walt Kelly
| 'Years ago my mother used to say to me, she'd say, "In this
| world, Elwood, you must be" – she always called me Elwood –
| "In this world, Elwood, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant."
| Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. You may quote me.'
|               —James Stewart as Elwood P. Dowd
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[Peter Baughman]

Jeff,

The outhaul is internal.  There are no hooks at the gooseneck - I have attached two pictures (port and starboard) from when the sail was removed.

I do not know what the cleat and winch on the port side of the boom near the gooseneck have been used for.  The starboard side of the boom has nothing near the gooseneck.

Thanks,

Pete

[Jeff Griglack]

Then I suspect you want to simply tie the tacks down.  However, the cunningham is not part of the reefing system.  I suppose, when you want to reef, you could move the cunningham hook up to the tack point and use it to pull down the tack of the sail for the first reef point.  Since you don't have a second reef point, you could just stop there.  However, I suspect you could also do a "jiffy reefing" setup by attaching a line from the boom on one side of the tack, through the reefing point, and down to something on the other side.  Then you just tighten down on that line (possibly on the cleat) to shorten the luff.

------------------------------------------------------------------
| Jeff Griglack                  "Blithe Spirit" P-30 #182

|                                   "Jabberwocky" P-365 #269
------------------------------------------------------------------
| "Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent"
|                   - Walt Kelly
| 'Years ago my mother used to say to me, she'd say, "In this
| world, Elwood, you must be" – she always called me Elwood –
| "In this world, Elwood, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant."
| Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. You may quote me.'
|               —James Stewart as Elwood P. Dowd
------------------------------------------------------------------

--

[Richard Usen]

First of all, I’ll be very surprised if you ever reef the main unless you’re racing. That’s why you have two masts. I assume you have Lazyjacks. Thursday night we can chat. My dementia makes complicated typing slower than I’d like. It’s hard for me to shift gears.

Let’s start w/ the main. Your reef starts at the mast, goes aft to one of the cheek blocks  at the end of the boom, up to the reef cringle, down to a pad eye or bowline around the boom. The luff end requires some thought. If you have a big winch like a 43, the luff end goes to it directly or after it comes up through a pad eye on the front of the boom, up through a luff cringle and down to the big winch. When your boat was built, the winch was small and located on the boom. It likely was too small for a handle. Reefing wa s simple. Drop the halyard a few feet and drag the reefing slack to the winch and to a jam cleat. I like that. The main is small and you’re strong enough to remove all the slack w/o a winch handle. This is much faster than winching. On a bigger boat, I’d want the winch back in the cockpit w/ clutches  for reefing and halyarding. You may find that your boat has several generations of tweaking has been done. My Tartan had several options. If I didn’t want to spend the time to winch, I’d use the armstrong system. But, I had a big main and I needed the 43. W/ my yawl, I did a lot of sailing Jib and Jigger w/ the main furled, never reefed. I also had a staysail that was self-tending. Thursday we’ll explore all the surplus hardware. This summer, forget about reefing the main. If you’re single handing, you definitely won’t bother  reefing. 

I had single line reefing on the Tartan and liked it but the original owner was a petite 60" woman who single handed most of the time. I had the benefit of all her special hardware and carefully  thought out deck-rigging.  

Does this make sense?  Give me a call.

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[Richard Usen]

Help. Am I writing to Peter Baughman in SF or Jeff Griglack in Boston? Pls advise.

On Apr 27, 2019, at 8:51 PM, Peter Baughman <peter.c....@gmail.com> wrote:

[Bill Robart]

Peter,

I agree with the comment that there is more than one generation of hardware on your boom. Unless you race you should forget about the cunningham as it's purpose is to keep the main sail within the measurement lines on the mast (a racing rule). The cunningham doesn't do anything for a cruiser that a halyard winch doesn't do in a simpler fashion.

The cheek block forward of the one for the first reef is indeed for a second reef. The cheek block on the opposite side of the boom may have been for a set of lazy jacks. I have no idea what the little cheek block below and aft was used for. 

As for the luff end of the sail there should be a line from either the forward most end of the boom up and thru the reef cringle and then back down to the boom. Alternatively that line could be secured to both sides of the mast. On my boat there were reefing hooks on either side of the boom to secure the cringles. I removed the hooks as they didn't allow the sail to shape properly when reefed. I attached an SS eye strap on one side of the mast and a cleat on the other. I spliced a line to the eye and when I reefed the sail I'd simply pass the line thru the cringle and then pass the eye splice on the other end of the line over the cleat and proceed to haul in aft reef line with the boom mounted winch.  I only had one reefing winch on the boom so both reefs were handled with that one winch.

Here's a link to some diagrams of different ways to set up jiffy reefing.  https://www.bing.com/search?q=mainsail+reefing+diagram&FORM=R5FD

Bill 

 

As for the 

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[Jeff Griglack]

Dick,

I was just replying to Peter. I haven't thought about feeding the main (or the mizzen) on my new boat. I'll look at that after i get it in the water and get the sails on it.

Sorry for the confusion.

Jeff

[Peter Ogilvie]

The bitter end of the reefing line probably should go to that long strap eye forward of the cheek block on the stbd side of the boom.  

The extra cheek block on port side is for the 2nd reef point.

The outhaul looks like it’s set up for a 2-1 purchase with the line running through what looks to be a sheave on the outhaul car and secured to a pad eye on the boom end but was never installed.  The spliced eye in the current set up hides what looks to be a standard 2-1 purchase outhaul set up.  

If the Cunningham does not pull the sail into the mast it is not a good idea to use it for the tack reefing point.  All the force applied aft on the clew reefing points to flatten the sail will load the tack slides and could pull them off the sail and/or the track off the mast.  You want the tack clew hooked onto a pigtail attached to the goose neck if you’re reefing at the mast.  

Failing that a line that pulls both down and aft.  We’ve done it two different ways on three different boats using line.  One was a pad eye on one side and a cleat on the other positioned so the line pulled at a 45 degree angle down and forward from the tack reef cringle.  The other was/is a double line reefing system with the cleat replaced with a block to turn the line down to a block at the mast base and aft to the cockpit.

The cheek block all the way aft could have been used with a topping lift but that’s not a usual way of rigging one.  The other blocks are a mystery.

On Apr 27, 2019, at 8:51 PM, Peter Baughman <peter.c....@gmail.com> wrote:

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Better to tie the bitter end around the boom and go through the padeye.   I tied right to the padeye and it broke while reefed.  Bit of a pain to deal with beating to windward in 25 knots.  And that's when it will break. 
 

Dan Pfeiffer

[Peter Ogilvie]

Looks like the sail foot is a bolt rope threaded into the boom.  If so, you cannot tie around the boom unless there is a cringle in the sail to allow the line to pass through.  Definitely better to secure reefing line around boom with a bowline but bolt rope don't allow that.

Aloha
Peter Ogilvie
'Ae'a, Pearson 35 #108

Ms American Pie, Sabre 28 Mk II

--

[Peter Baughman]

Thanks for your replies everyone!  I think I've got this figured out now.  Dan, Peter O, I've added a green line to the pictures where I think you're telling me to run the fore and aft reefing line.  The bottom of the sail is not captive in the boom, so I can tie the bitter end around the boom.  Did I understand you correctly?

I have lazy jacks on the boom but they don't utilize any hardware out at the end of the boom.  A cleat on the port side of the boom is labeled "boom lift" but I have a spring loaded vang that keeps it up and no topping lift.  Some of the old hardware at the end of the boom may be for a long gone topping lift.

Thanks for all your help,

Pete B

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Not quite.  The loop should go through the padeye the line is tied to in the picture, not that dinky strap-eye. That strap-eye on the boom isn't even close to strong enough to handle the reefing loads.    That might be something to do with the lazy jacks. 

 

Dan Pfeiffer

[peter.c....@gmail.com]

Like the blue or the green line in this?

Sorry, I’m just having trouble understanding how to tie the line around the boom and not interfere with the outhaul or the block on the port side.

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[Dan Pfeiffer]

Blue.  But I think that padeye is too  far aft.   It should be a bit forward, between the clew and the reef clew.

Also, you need a way to take the tack reef cringle load (forward end) at the front of the sail and keep the reefing tension from pulling on the sail slides.  This is the hook arrangement described already by others (Bill Robart?).    Photos attached of what I have on my 10M.  The reefing lines pull agaisnt this, not the slides.  The tack reef cringle hooks onto the horn of the reef hook.  Mine is a Schaefer unit. 

Dan Pfeiffer

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[Peter Baughman]

I think at the team of the sail I can run a short line from the hook on my cunningham through the reef cringle to a cleat near the bottom of my mast on the port side.  That should pull sufficiently forward

I like the look of those hooks though.  If I see them for sail somewhere I may impulse-buy then.

---

From: pearso...@googlegroups.com <pearso...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Dan Pfeiffer <d...@pfeiffer.net>
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 7:04:52 PM

[Peter Baughman]

Ugh, "team" should be "tack." That's what I get for replying on a cell phone

---

From: Peter Baughman <peter.c....@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, April 29, 2019 11:46:19 AM

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I don't know the geometry of your cunningham but I don't think it would work to take the reefing tension off the sail slides.  You really need to get the tack cringle properly secured at the gooseneck so you can get enough tension on the reefing lines to properly flatten the sail.  And flat is where it's at for a reefed main.  The set-back (and height) of the reefing hook is something the sailmaker takes into account when building a main.  Look at the attached diagram.  It is from page 29 of this document: 
http://www.seldenmast.com/files/595-542-E.pdf
Also shows the leads of the reefing lines at the aft and.   This is for a boom with internal reefing lines that lead down and back to the cockpit but the basic layout is the same. 

Dan Pfeiffer

 

On 2019-04-29 11:46, Peter Baughman wrote:

I think at the tack of the sail I can run a short line from the hook on my cunningham through the reef cringle to a cleat near the bottom of my mast on the port side.  That should pull sufficiently forward

I like the look of those hooks though.  If I see them for sail somewhere I may impulse-buy then.

---

From: pearso...@googlegroups.com <pearso...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Dan Pfeiffer <d...@pfeiffer.net>
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 7:04:52 PM
To: pearso...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [pearson ] Re: How to reef my main sail

 

Blue.  But I think that padeye is too  far aft.   It should be a bit forward, between the clew and the reef clew.

Also, you need a way to take the tack reef cringle load (forward end) at the front of the sail and keep the reefing tension from pulling on the sail slides.  This is the hook arrangement described already by others (Bill Robart?).    Photos attached of what I have on my 10M.  The reefing lines pull agaisnt this, not the slides.  The tack reef cringle hooks onto the horn of the reef hook.  Mine is a Schaefer unit. 

Dan Pfeiffer

 

 

On 2019-04-28 18:44, peter.c....@gmail.com wrote:

Like the blue or the green line in this?

Sorry, I'm just having trouble understanding how to tie the line around the boom and not interfere with the outhaul or the block on the port side.

 

From: Dan Pfeiffer
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 6:33 PM
To: pearso...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [pearson ] Re: How to reef my main sail

 

Not quite.  The loop should go through the padeye the line is tied to in the picture, not that dinky strap-eye. That strap-eye on the boom isn't even close to strong enough to handle the reefing loads.    That might be something to do with the lazy jacks. 

 

Dan Pfeiffer

On 2019-04-28 18:16, Peter Baughman wrote:

Thanks for your replies everyone!  I think I've got this figured out now.  Dan, Peter O, I've added a green line to the pictures where I think you're telling me to run the fore and aft reefing line.  The bottom of the sail is not captive in the boom, so I can tie the bitter end around the boom.  Did I understand you correctly?

 

I have lazy jacks on the boom but they don't utilize any hardware out at the end of the boom.  A cleat on the port side of the boom is labeled "boom lift" but I have a spring loaded vang that keeps it up and no topping lift.  Some of the old hardware at the end of the boom may be for a long gone topping lift.

 

Thanks for all your help,

 

Pete B.

[Peter Ogilvie]

The tack has to be pulled down and forward to take the strain off the sail slides and track.  A tack pig tail will lock the tack in position so works fine.  if you go with a line, it has to pull down and forward.  The set up you indicated does pull down put does not pull forward so the aft pull of the reefed clew will put all that force on the sail slugs and/or sail track.  

The bowline on the clew should be free floating tied roughly where the reefed clew will be.  There shouldn’t be anything that restricts it sliding aft under the tension of the reefing line.  The illustration with the line passing through the cringe as it would be rigged with a bolt rope in track also applies to a loosed footed or sail with slugs.

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<reefing_lines_diagram.png>

[Peter Baughman]

Sorry guys, I'm just not understanding at all.  The mast is forward of the sail.  If I tie it to a cleat on the mast, how is it not being pulled forward?

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Sent: Monday, April 29, 2019 6:34:08 PM
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[Peter Ogilvie]

The picture I thought was yours showed the cleat on the boom aft of the sails tack.  A pad eye on one side of the mast and a cleat on the other side of the mast is what I was envisioning.

Aloha
Peter Ogilvie
'Ae'a, Pearson 35 #108

Ms American Pie, Sabre 28 Mk II

[Dan Pfeiffer]

If you're tied to a cleat on the mast the tension on the reef will change when the boom position changes (tack or bring boom in/out).   I think that will be a problem. 

Dan Pfeiffer

[Bob Maxwell]

My old P30 had the forward reefing line attached to either side of the mast a foot or so below the boom.  When reefed, the tack was pulled tight to the boom to the tension on the luff didn't change as the boom swung out.  The tension on the reef line did, but the line provided enough stretch to easily accommodate the swing.  If it had been Dyneema or similar, it might have been a problem, but with basic Stayset, it was fine.

Bob

[Guy Johnson]

it's so easy to mount a reefing hook to the casting at the forward end of the boom. Inexpensive too. 

Guy

Puffin 10M #6

Sent from Outlook

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From: pearso...@googlegroups.com <pearso...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Bob Maxwell <jrmax...@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2019 10:10 AM
To: pearson-boats

[Peter Ogilvie]

Pad eye on one side of the mast, line through the tack reefing cringle to   a cleat on the other side works fine no matter the position of the boom.  Sailed more than 10,000 miles, about half of it reefed, with that set up.

Aloha
Peter Ogilvie
'Ae'a, Pearson 35 #108

Ms American Pie, Sabre 28 Mk II

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Works because it's running from one side of mast, through tack cringle, to other side of mast.  So tension equalizes as boom position changes. However, if a cunningham rig is cleated on one side of the mast and hooked to the tack cringle (which is what I thought we were talking about) the tension will change with boom position. 

 

Dan Pfeiffer

[Bob Maxwell]

A reefing hook is easy if the halyard cleats at the mast.  My current boat has reefing hooks, but the halyard is led back to the cockpit.  It's a PITA.  If reefing alone (typical for me), I have to ease the halyard to exactly the right spot.  Loose enough I can engage the sail on the hook, but tight enough it doesn't bounce off while trying to get back to tension the halyard. I put a mark on the halyard to help, but the toal range between success and failure is probably 1/2".  As often as not, it takes more than one trip to get it right.  With 2 people, it would be easy.  With 1, it isn't.

Bob

[Guy Johnson]

Bob, good point. 

And another reason i'm glad my halyard terminates at the mast. 

Guy

Sent from Outlook

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From: pearso...@googlegroups.com <pearso...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Bob Maxwell <jrmax...@gmail.com>

Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2019 10:31 AM

[Guy Johnson]

I also want to add my concern with a rope through the tack cringle led to  the boom, chafe. With every movement of the boom that cringle reefing line with also move through the cringle and potentially across the boom, goose neck, sail and mast, it won't be a big range of movement, but in conditions where a reef is needed it could be a large number of repeated movements. 

This I think would still be preferable to a tack cringle reef attachment that doesn't hold the tack forward. 

Guy

Sent from Outlook

---

From: pearso...@googlegroups.com <pearso...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Guy Johnson <guy...@hotmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2019 10:34 AM

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Got this question today from a 10M owner.  Anyone know the answer?  Is there a second location?   I have not come across this on my own boat though I can't say I have been looking. 

Dan Pfeiffer

On 2019-04-30 09:34, John Foster wrote:

Hi Dan

I own 1976 10M, hull number 150.  A prior owner covered up the HIN on the transom, so I am looking for the other, internal place on the boat that has the duplicate HIN.  Do you know where Pearson located that?

John Foster

[Scott Quigley]

Yea I saw this posted on a facebook pearson group. Only know of the place on the transom and then on previous owners bill of sale.

--

[Dave Cole]

Unless the hin was ground out of the fiberglass on the transom, it should reveal itself by sanding off the paint.  The filler should contrast with the fiberglass as the area is sanded.

Dave

10M #26

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I don't know that it was covered by paint in this case.  Could be hardware mounting, or glass work, or something else.  Regardless, what I am wondering is if anyone knows if there is a second place that the HIN is stamped on the hull.  And that would not be the oval ID plate with the hull number.  That is not the HIN. 

Dan Pfeiffer

[Bill Robart]

After the line from one side of the mast thru the reef cringle and the looped to the clear the halyard is tensioned which will pull the bolt rope snug against the mast groove. When the boat tacks the bolt rope doesn’t even move and the line thru the cringle doesn’t move enough to even groan. I used that system from 1985 until 2012 (hurricane Sandy). The Dacron around the bolt rope didn’t show any wear. The 3/8” cringle line also showed no wear. 

The geometry of the reefing lines is important as you mention. The best way to assure the geometry always stay proper, in my opinion, is by avoiding bowlines around the boom. Two problems with the bowline system are the difficulty of getting the loop to slide aft as the aft reef line is tensioned.   If the loop is small enough to prevent the knot from preventing the cringle going all the way down to the boom the loop will not slide without help from the crew. For those reasons I prefer a pad eye opposite the cheek block.

Any boat I have ever sailed with the bowline system required crew help to slide the loop aft so the foot of the sail tensioned properly. Catalina 27, 36, 42,

Pearson 33-1(mine, before I added pad eyes), 36, Beneteau

40?, O’Day 34.  The Beneteau has internal reef lines which were self destructing due to chafe at their exit points. I “liked” that system almost as much as I “like” in mast roller furling.

Bill

On Tue, Apr 30, 2019 at 9:53 AM Dan Pfeiffer <d...@pfeiffer.net> wrote:

[George DuBose]

I have been in every space from stem to stern in the past 10 years
since I owned Skylark, I have never seen a second HIN number anywhere.
Skylark has her USCG documentation number painted on the inside of the
hull on the starboard side at the bottom of the cockpit locker.

If the HIN is where it is supposed to be, I would start sanding the
upper starboard corner of the transom and once a few layers of paint
and fairing compound or whatever was used to fill in the HIN, the
outlines of the numbers should gradually appear.

I would uncover the HIN as having it covered looks like one is "up to
something". Like illegal...

I had a run-in with the French Immigration/Customs last summer and when
I showed them my bill of sale, the sale tax receipt that I paid to the
Dutch, the French officer said that I paid to little for Skylark. I
just told him that Skylark wasn't so nice looking when I bought her 12
years before. Those French have some nerve...

George

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George DuBose
Wiedstrasse 16
D-50859 Köln
Germany
Mobile: +49.160.481.1234
Skype: georgedubose or call +1.347.284.6443

Video interview on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcOxW65Xe10&feature=youtu.be

Personal website:
http://www.george-dubose.com

Galleries:
https://www.rockpaperphoto.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=George+DuBose
http://www.modernrocksgallery.com/george-dubose-photographer
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https://classicrockphotography.jp/?s=George+DuBose

Short video of Skylark's vacation:
https://vimeo.com/133183259
Password: SkylarkNY

S/V Skylark
Compagnieshaven
Enkhuizen, NL

[Jeff Griglack]

George,

Did you buy Skylark in The Netherlands?  I thought you bought it here and brought it there.  I am surprised that you would have to show a tax receipt for a USCG documented vessel that you have owned for 12 years.  Also, I am surprised you would pay taxes to The Netherlands if you didn't buy the boat there.

I bought my P365 in Rhode Island, which does not tax boat sales.  The boat is documented, and we both signed, and notarized, a USCG bill of sale.  If I, someday, move my boat elsewhere, are they going to force me to pay taxes for a boat that I have owned for a period of time?

------------------------------------------------------------------
| Jeff Griglack                  "Blithe Spirit" P-30 #182

|                                   "Jabberwocky" P-365 #269
------------------------------------------------------------------
| "Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent"
|                   - Walt Kelly
| 'Years ago my mother used to say to me, she'd say, "In this
| world, Elwood, you must be" – she always called me Elwood –
| "In this world, Elwood, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant."
| Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. You may quote me.'
|               —James Stewart as Elwood P. Dowd
------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guy Johnson]

Jeff;

If at some time in the distant future, you move your boat one state north to Massachusetts you will be expected to pay the sales/use tax. 

Guy

Sent from Outlook

---

From: pearso...@googlegroups.com <pearso...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Jeff Griglack <grig...@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 1, 2019 8:16 AM
To: pearso...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Taxes (was Re: [pearson ] Hull Identification Number (HIN) 2nd location)

 

[Bob Maxwell]

I think it varies by jurisdiction, but I can only speak to MA.  If you bring a boat into MA within 6 months of purchase, you owe MA a sales/use tax of 6.25% unless you paid that much or more when you acquired the boat.  So, in theory, you wouldn't have to pay them because you owned your boat far longer than 6 months.

A boat broker friend told me law and reality differ.  He said if there's any question you acquired and kept a boat out of MA temporarily, simply to avoid the tax, they will hound you to your grave.

Bob

[Guy Johnson]

I've never seen another location for the HIN on Puffin and I've touched pretty much every sq in of the hull. 

Guy

Puffin 10M #6

Sent from Outlook

---

From: pearso...@googlegroups.com <pearso...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Dan Pfeiffer <d...@pfeiffer.net>

Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2019 4:47 PM
To: pearso...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [pearson ] Hull Identification Number (HIN) 2nd location

 

--

[Dave Cole]

Why did you need to show them the bill of sale and tax receipt?   Are you keeping your boat in France?

Dave 

10M #26

[Robert Franklin]

I always thought HIN numbers began after the production year of my P36-1, which was 1972.

Robert M. Franklin, Esq.
145 Lagrange Street
Chestnut Hill, MA 02467-3047
617 277 5900 Cell
617 277 5901 Fax
email:  robertm...@gmail.com

[Jeff Griglack]

I keep my boat in RI because I have a mooring in RI, and I like sailing the waters in RI.  I am not trying to avoid taxes.  That's just a pleasant side effect :).

Seriously, I live in MA, and the boat was in NY, but we signed papers (and the old owners' new address is) in RI.  The boat is now registered in RI, and I plan to keep it there for the next couple of years.  At some point, I may move it south, possibly to Florida, but I'm probably never going to move it north to Massachusetts.  If I were to move it to MA, I don't see a problem paying excise tax, but can't see the point of paying sales tax to MA.

The reason why I ask this is that I have heard that some states require you to pay tax or prove that you paid tax.  I have no proof that I paid tax because RI does not tax boats.

I could sort of see them making a stink if I was somebody famous and was specifically taking delivery of an expensive boat in RI to avoid taxes.  Say, for instance, if my name was John Kerry, and I was taking delivery of a custom made, 76 foot, $7 million boat, I could see somebody making a stink.  That is not the case with me.

So, I am asking if people have been pinged on this in the past?

------------------------------------------------------------------
| Jeff Griglack                  "Blithe Spirit" P-30 #182

|                                   "Jabberwocky" P-365 #269
------------------------------------------------------------------
| "Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent"
|                   - Walt Kelly
| 'Years ago my mother used to say to me, she'd say, "In this
| world, Elwood, you must be" – she always called me Elwood –
| "In this world, Elwood, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant."
| Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. You may quote me.'
|               —James Stewart as Elwood P. Dowd
------------------------------------------------------------------

[George DuBose]

Jeff,

Well, it's a long story that I detailed in my little book, "Renovate a
Sailboat and Cross the Atlantic".

The EU has extensive rulings about "imported" boats. New boats have to
be "CE" marked, meaning the vessel has to meet European standards, some
of which are insane.

I had a "low" receipt from the PO and paid the tax on that amount, then
I had to put Skylark through a Post Construction Assessment survey to
ensure that all the equipment on board met European standards.

One of my favorite "defects" that I had to resolve was that although my
bilge pump has a float switch, the pump was wired direct to the
batteries, not to the batteries, but the only switch was the float
switch. The PCA inspector told me that I have to be able to "turn off"
the bilge pump when I was away from the boat. Why I asked. Because "IF"
the engine leaked oil when I was not aboard, it would flow into the
bilge and then be pumped overboard.

So...I installed a switch for the bilge pump circuit under the galley
sink, where only I know where it is. I leave the pump on all the time
anyway...

I don't know about changing state registrations, but South Carolina
tried to charge me property tax on a boat that has never been in South
Carolina waters, I was using my mom's address for the USCG
documentation.

When I bought Skylark, I "assumed" that the PO would pay the sales tax.
I never registered the boat in NY state when I was preparing for the
crossing to the Netherlands.

As I wrote in my little detail about the French Douane, but I was
planning on sailing in Scandinavia and since Skylark still flies the US
flag, I am regularly checked by various coast guards and there are
hefty fines for not having paid VAT or having the PCA survey.

After I repaired the five "defects" in the PCA survey, Skylark is now
rated RCD category "A" for offshore use. I had to add a second
lifeline, make the hatches in the cockpit more waterproof, be able to
close the dorado vents. Just a few things that were actually good ideas.

This summer I will be on Long Island hanging around my old boatyard
there, but from 2020, Skylark will be heading to the Mediterranean and
spending two years in Italy and Croatia before I take her to the
Caribbean and then up the East Coast to Canada then back to Europe

The Netherlands is a great place for boating. No yearly property taxes,
generally no contact with any authorities and the slip fees and storage
fees are the cheapest in Europe. I pay 1500 euros for a slip in a five
gold anchor marina from April to November and can choose to leave the
boat in the water, on land in a cradle or in a hall. All for quite
reasonable costs. My biggest boat expense is the cost of the fuel for
my car and the three hour drive through The Netherlands to get to the
boat from Cologne.

On another note: I often let other sailors use Skylark without me on
board and plan to have these guys move Skylark from port to port on
occasion and then I go to meet the boat at the new port. I am working
on finding sailors who want to swap boats for 4-6 weeks in the summer
and with that amount of time, one can do a "Whisky Tour" in Scotland,
sail all around Denmark, visit La Rochelle and get back to the
IJsselmeer at the end.

I bought Skylark on eBay against the opinion of the surveyor, but I
knew that all the "problems" like the leaking chainplates, warping hull
liner, etc. could all be repaired and the electronics were all so
outdated that the whole system needed replacing. I put a lot of money
into this Pearson 36-1, but she is one tough boat and has beautiful
lines. I think she is prettier than any Beneteau or Bavaria yachts that
look like floating bleach bottles.

George

[George DuBose]

I was cruising to La Rochelle last summer and on the return trip to The
Netherlands we stopped in Belle Isle. After we grabbed a mooring
outside the harbor, a team of immigration and customs officers saw my
Stars and Stripes and boarded me.

I have all my ship's documentation, bill of sale, insurance papers,
radio operator and station license and so on in a binder.

Skylark is NOT looking like a $12000 boat as stated in the bill of sale
from the PO in Connecticut, that was the question from the Douane. I
had to explain that I had renovated the boat in The Netherlands and
certainly increased the value of the boat, but I used parts and
materials that I had purchased in the EU. Wasn't much they could do
after that explanation.

After sailing from the Chesapeake to Maine over 30 odd years, I am
really enjoying exploring Europe and was delighted to learn that there
are small islands off the Atlantic coast of France that are just
beautiful, no big commercial development, great lobsters, oysters and
mussels and quite reasonable dockage.

Skylark and I are really looking forward to exploring the Mediterranean
in two years.

George

[Dave Cole]

There is a bunch of info on this in cruisers forum I believe.  If you buy a new boat and keep it in Delaware for 6 months or something like that, you can avoid FL boat sales tax...etc.  

So, I think you will be fine unless they change tax laws.

If you sailil to Europe...a different matter.

Dave

10M #26

[Jeff Griglack]

Alright.  I think I'm probably good.  If something comes up in the future, I'll deal with it then.

Thanks for all the info.

------------------------------------------------------------------
| Jeff Griglack                  "Blithe Spirit" P-30 #182

|                                   "Jabberwocky" P-365 #269
------------------------------------------------------------------
| "Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent"
|                   - Walt Kelly
| 'Years ago my mother used to say to me, she'd say, "In this
| world, Elwood, you must be" – she always called me Elwood –
| "In this world, Elwood, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant."
| Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. You may quote me.'
|               —James Stewart as Elwood P. Dowd
------------------------------------------------------------------