Mast Wiring

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sendtorandy

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Dec 3, 2021, 11:07:40 AM12/3/21
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Hi all,

I'm looking at installing a new wind transducer on the mast of my 1980 Pearson 30. Anyone have advice on getting the wires from the mast into the cabin? 

Thanks,
Randy

Jeff Griglack

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Dec 3, 2021, 1:40:14 PM12/3/21
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When you say "new," it makes me think that you had an old one there.  If so, I would expect you to pull wires the same as the old one. 

If not, the P30's original wires were designed to go through a pipe that runs up from the mast step into the middle of the mast for about a foot. At the top of this pipe would be a wire connector so you can step and unstep the mast.  After several years of unstepping the mast and having the yard workers rip the wires out (forgetting about the connectors) I decided to have the wires come out the side of the mast on the port side, a little forward of middle so it wouldn't interfere with any lines coming down the mast.  The wires would connect to a connector on deck, sealing the deck with epoxy where they would come through.  That way, I could break or make the connection before the mast was unstepped.

I rewired the mast, bought the deck connector, and then sold the boat because I bought a P365 (which has a keel stepped mast and connections in the cabin).  So, I never actually completed this project.

You could follow a similar path for the wires for your wind sensor.  You could bring them out a hole in the side of the mast and through the deck.  The wind sensor should have 3 wires (ground, direction, speed) that are fairly thin (20 gage or so) that can be brought to a wire bar inside a small, industrial, waterproof box (IP68) mounted just forward of the mast.  If you want, immediately or over time, you can move additional connections to this box.

I like the idea of bringing the wires up through the mast step, but it turned out to be impractical over the long term if you depend on yard workers to remove the mast (and, once, when I did it myself with a gin pole :) ).

I hope this helps,
Jeff
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| Jeff Griglack             "Jabberwocky" P-365 #269
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| "Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent"
|                   - Walt Kelly
| 'Years ago my mother used to say to me, she'd say, "In this
| world, Elwood, you must be" – she always called me Elwood –
| "In this world, Elwood, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant."
| Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. You may quote me.'
|               —James Stewart as Elwood P. Dowd
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Guy Johnson

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Dec 3, 2021, 2:12:54 PM12/3/21
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There is a commonly available style of automotive connector that could be used. 


Guy
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Subject: Re: [pearson ] Mast Wiring
 

Justin Henderson

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Dec 3, 2021, 2:22:46 PM12/3/21
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Hi Randy, 

Some unsolicited advice on this: I purchased the wired version of the B&G Wind Sensor, I wish I installed the wireless version. WS320. This is what id recommend and save you the hassle of drilling holes, running wires, buying clamshells, etc. 


On Fri, Dec 3, 2021 at 11:07 AM 'sendtorandy' via pearson-boats <pearso...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
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Last Resort

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Dec 4, 2021, 8:56:01 AM12/4/21
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If you're starting from scratch and haven't bought one yet, I'd go wireless is my suggestion. Garmin has one, as others I'm sure. 

Jeff Griglack

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Dec 4, 2021, 1:59:57 PM12/4/21
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B&G has one as well.

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Andrew Milkovits

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Dec 5, 2021, 9:41:39 AM12/5/21
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My old raymarine windvane transducer is in tough shape and didn't appear to be very accurate, so I'm in a similar spot.  Checking Garmin's site, there's only a $100 difference between the wired and wireless option.  Seems like a no brainer to go wireless.  

That said, this is the first boat I've had with a wind instrument more advanced than a Davis windex and I only ever really referenced it as a novelty.  I recently upgraded my chartplotter to a new Garmin unit and could potentially see some value in the autorouting technology when it incorporates wind information.  Others thoughts?  Must have or a nice to have?  

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Last Resort

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Dec 5, 2021, 10:27:47 AM12/5/21
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I have a full Garmin setup (NMEA2000 system with Chartplotter, Reactor Autopilot, 3way transducer and Wind) with the wireless Windvane and aside from the fact they're Garmin, I love it!   My Davis Windex is now ONLY for backup, as the Wireless does tend to disappear on the screen once in a while for a few minutes, but always comes back.  I got caught in a Squall this past summer and had to turn the boat around back into the wind, and I couldn't have imagined trying to accomplish that while looking up at a Windex, but instead it was right in front of me on the screen.  

Guy Johnson

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Dec 5, 2021, 10:53:53 AM12/5/21
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Randy;
Is this a new system, or are you replacing an existing transducer?
What other instruments do you have?
Is your system NMEA 2K?

Guy
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Subject: Re: [pearson ] Re: Mast Wiring
 

Dan Pfeiffer

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Dec 5, 2021, 11:45:26 AM12/5/21
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I prefer a wired unit.  Seems more reliable.  And if the wireless sometimes has dropouts that's all the more reason.

I would look for a plug that pulls apart easily enough that when the mast is lifted it will simply separate without damage but will hold well enough to otherwise stay put.  I had that on my deck stepped P26. 

As far as utility, I have a pretty full instrument package (Nexus Classic) and for me the most valuable data is true wind speed, true wind direction, boat speed through water, course over ground and VMG.  To get those you need wind, log (boat speed), compass, and GPS.  If you have GPS it can supply the compass data if you are moving.  My system is all old school NMEA 0183.   With the newer NMEA 2000 you should be able to mix/match mfg transducers and displays though there may be some limitations.   Maretron has a wind unit that has no moving parts.  That's very interesting.  Does air temp and barometer too. 

I also have a very nice conventional compass and a windex and the hair on the back of my neck and I use them all.  Instruments can enhance your situational awareness or detract from it.  When we're going up wind sometimes I try to sail to optimize the readings on the instruments (like steer for best VMG).  If I instead focus my attention on the headsail (watch the ticks and other visual cues) I get better results and better readings on the instruments.   So if I steer to best sail trim I get better VMG than if I steer trying to max out the VMG display. 

If you have an auto pilot steering to a wind course is quite useful too. 

Dan Pfeiffer

Last Resort

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Dec 5, 2021, 11:50:34 AM12/5/21
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If you have an auto pilot steering to a wind course is quite useful too. 

I LOVE that part of my system!!!!

Dave Cole

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Dec 5, 2021, 12:35:02 PM12/5/21
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Is this a wind speed and direction unit?  
It shouldn't be hard to store enough power from a wind speed device to charge a battery to run the device.  
Wireless can be quite reliable.  I have a really cheap remote temp monitor that I bought 20 years ago.  It takes two AA batteries, I change the batteries about every two years and it is still operating!  And that's 20 year old technology.  If the device has a good reputation, you should be safe with wireless.    I mess with electronic devices both for work and play and there are some really inexpensive wireless devices out there now that are being put inside smart light bulbs etc.  The device cost is extremely low, less than $2 each in low volumes.   I just bought some development boards (lots of features)  and they were 3 for $15.  These run on wifi frequencies but there are other bands that these types of devices can run on to avoid interference issues. 

Dave

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Dan Pfeiffer

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Dec 5, 2021, 1:23:18 PM12/5/21
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I don't know about other makers but the Nexus/Garmin wind transducer does not detect wind speed by a voltage generated by the little propeller.  It  is an optical device.  The propeller turns a small black and white ball and an optical detector reads it and interprets wind speed and direction.  Here is what the ball looks like:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJbHsCWaHAY
This ball rotates on the horizontal axis of the propeller and the assembly rotates horizontally on a vertical axis through the center of the ball.  This is more sensitive especially at low wind speed.    I am pretty sure the current Garmin unit is the same. 

I have had my wired Nexus wind unit for 20 years without issues.   I am not saying wireless is not reliable, just less reliable and we have one report here of intermittent behavior.  In addition to the basic wind sensing device you add a transmitter (and a receiver), a battery, and some electric generation device (photovoltaic for Garmin) and a lot of connectors vulnerable to corrosion.   So you have increased the number of parts and connections and therefore decreases the reliability.  R=1/P.  It may be reasonably reliable but it cannot be as reliable as a wired unit.

I have had many of those remote temp monitors (like Oregon Scientific) and when used outside I get only 3 to 5 years of service.  However they are not as robust as similar devices for marine applications. 

Dan Pfeiffer

Dave Cole

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Dec 5, 2021, 2:47:03 PM12/5/21
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Although the R= 1/P concept  ignores build quality.   Which is probably more important than everything else.
Poorly made electronics won't last long on the top of a mast in the ocean. 

 In that speed sensor;
They must be using an optical sensor to detect light vs dark to determine rpm.
They should be able to seal up the led/photodetector pretty well to prevent moisture entry.  

Dave

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Dan Pfeiffer

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Dec 5, 2021, 3:17:25 PM12/5/21
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That's true about build quality in the R=1/P evaluation but In this case I think we can assume build quality of the wired Vs wireless options from the same manufacturer are equivalent.  The Nexus unit is pretty well sealed and as robust as such a delicate wind sensor can be I think. 

My buddy Paul wrote up this description of the Nexus sensors for a Hackaday article:

"The ball has a one-period sine wave mapped onto its surface,
oriented with the sine wave's peak and trough located near the
poles where the shaft meets the ball. The ball's surface is painted
white on one side of the sine wave and black on the other. Two
IR transceivers are mounted on the fixed (to the boat) part of the
instrument just below the plane of the shaft and 90 degrees apart
to provide quadrature signals. "

Lots more detail in the article:
https://hackaday.io/project/179262-logging-sailboat-instrument-data/details

We built a device (arduino based) to log data from the system via NMEA.   He designed and programmed it, I built it.  Paul has been working to get the data directly from the sensor outputs to eliminate the need for the Nexus server.


Here's what Practical Sailor said about wireless vs wired a few years ago (certainly things have developed since then):

"Despite the advantages of a wireless mast indicator, we are not
sold on this arrangement. Yes, it makes installation easier, but it
also introduces a battery, an independent charging system, and
a radio transmitter/receiver, all possible failure points. The only
failure point it eliminates is the wired connections, fairly easy
items to troubleshoot. If we had an average size boat that
presented no great challenges to a wired system, wed opt for a
wired arrangement. "

https://www.practical-sailor.com/boat-maintenance/testers-take-tacktick-and-nexus-wind-instruments-for-a-spin


Unless it was supremely difficult to install I would go with a wired unit as I expect the reliability to be better.   And if the mast is down the installation of the data wire is pretty easy.  I am slightly biased as I take the mast down every winter so these sorts of issues are relatively easily dealt with. 


Dan Pfeiffer
20191005_024616-1.jpg

Randy Anderson

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Dec 5, 2021, 4:03:15 PM12/5/21
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It would be a new transducer going to a NMEA 2000 network with chart plotter, depth and speed. There are no existing wires in the mast for a wind transducer.

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Dave Cole

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Dec 5, 2021, 9:15:48 PM12/5/21
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That's a very thorough Hackaday article!   Thanks for the link.

I'm surprised that they used a quadrature signal since that is usually used for shafts that can go both forwards and reverse.   I'm pretty sure that wind speed device won't be changing rotational direction much!   I suspect the engineer got carried away just a bit! 

If you drop your mast every year the wireless doesn't have much advantage.  

If you are riding a rope to the top to install one, then wireless has a lot of advantages! 

I suspect that in our lifetime, wired instruments in boats will become obsolete.   The wireless communication technology is getting really good and very cheap.  
Think wired phones vs cell phones.   Many people don't have any wired phones in their houses any longer.  
  
Get 12 volts to each device, assign an address to the device, link it to whatever else you want to use and go.   You could use your cell phone to configure it via the WIFI interface!   Just like I did with my recent smart house thermostat installation.  
The NMEA standard served a purpose at the time but the 2000 standard is really clunky.
It's a CAN based network that was common in industrial controls years ago but is now considered obsolete in industry.
No one is installing CAN based networks in Industrial settings any longer.    It was always considered to be a very limited network.    
I thought that NMEA would try and push a new standard, but they seem stationary.  I suspect that standard WIFI will take over simply because it is so common.

There are already NMEA 2000 to Wifi device links available, but they aren't cheap.

Those small boards I mentioned before have a full WIFI interface on board including an antenna....  all for $5.  And they aren't hard to buy, I bought three off Amazon.
They can be programmed just like an Arduino using the same software.              

Here is a NMEA 2000 (CAN) to Wifi Device.   $190 !    But it does have "Yacht" in its name, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised!  

Dave

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Dan Pfeiffer

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Dec 6, 2021, 1:10:15 AM12/6/21
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The ball also encodes wind angle in the rotation about the vertical axis.   Actually I think it encodes wind speed and angle simultaneously using the duty cycle of the detected black/white parts of the ball. 


My understanding is that NMEA 2000 is CAN BUS as used in automotive sensors since the 1980's AKA OBDII.  SAme specs for voltages and resistance.  My electric motor, battery management system and charger use CAN buss.  I plan a translator for NMEA 0183 to CAN bus so I can get the instrument data on the same OBDII dongle with transmission to my tablet for data display and logging.  My buddy Paul (article author) already has a data connection from the boat instruments NMEA system through bluetooth to his tablet for data logging that he made with some inexpensive components and the knowledge to interface and program them.   We want to do it as WiFi so we can use multiple devices though I think that is possible with bluetooth in a limited way?   I have an audio mixer that has a wifi based control system.  Any device with wifi can connect and the router in the mixer has a web server that presents the control system as an HTML interface.   Multiple devices can connect and control the mixer.  A similar system could work in the boat to serve data to multiple devices like controllers or data displays.  There is enough bandwidth to serve chart data and radar data and camera feeds.   Instruments have no need for that level of bandwidth but an interface from the NMEA2000 (CAN bus) can bridge the two systems. 

Marine systems seem to be implementing Ethernet now so they can transmit large amounts of data like radar to char plotters. 


Dan Pfeiffer

Jeff Griglack

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Dec 6, 2021, 10:07:53 AM12/6/21
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This is all getting a little far afield of the original subject, but here goes:

There is a Facebook group for using the Raspberry Pi on boats.  There are several people who have built custom marine instruments using combinations of the different flavors of Raspberry Pi boards and Arduino boards.

You can build a chart plotter using the OpenCPN, and there are Linux distributions that pre-install most of the software you need to have your chart plotter interface with other hardware (either custom or bought off the shelf from the various marine manufacturers).

There is a distribution available to help you use a RPi as the controller for either a broken autopilot or by just buying an autopilot drive unit.

There are boards that make it easy to interface to the SeaTalk, NMEA 0183 and NMEA 2000 equipment.  You can get a GPS receiver with a USB interface, a hardware interface for a software defined radio to allow you to receive AIS and show it on the OpenCPN chart plotter.  You can keep this below while you display things in the cockpit using a tablet.  The relatively low cost of the RPi boards means you can build in redundant systems or keep spares and still spend less than you would to buy an off-the-shelf system.  These can then be interfaced with each other using cabled Ethernet or WiFi.

All of these things are being done.  People are successfully crossing oceans on custom made instruments. 
------------------------------------------------------------------
| Jeff Griglack             "Jabberwocky" P-365 #269
------------------------------------------------------------------
| "Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent"
|                   - Walt Kelly
| 'Years ago my mother used to say to me, she'd say, "In this
| world, Elwood, you must be" – she always called me Elwood –
| "In this world, Elwood, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant."
| Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. You may quote me.'
|               —James Stewart as Elwood P. Dowd
------------------------------------------------------------------

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pearson-boats/09a7a3840f94975bc0d39e67902dba35%40pfeiffer.net.

Steve Reevy

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Dec 6, 2021, 10:13:20 AM12/6/21
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I did exactly the same thing as Jeff when I rewired Weatherlight's mast a few years ago. I got a weather-tight electrical outlet box and attached it to the side of the mast where the wires come out. They terminate at a plug connector in that box. When I finish the project there will be wires with the other half of the connector plug coming up through the cabin top via a dorade-type gooseneck tube. The connection can then be made (and unmade for mast unstepping) inside the weather-tight box.


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Dave Cole

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Dec 6, 2021, 11:54:14 AM12/6/21
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>>Actually I think it encodes wind speed and angle simultaneously using the duty cycle of the detected black/white parts of the ball. 

That's clever.

Well I guess I missed this.
The NMEA has released a new standard that puts the NMEA 2000 protocol on Ethernet.    And it is fully operable with standard Ethernet, which means you can plug it into a wireless router and then you have NMEA 2000 protocol running on Wifi!


More details.  

So I guess NMEA 2000 is truly on its way to being obsolete now, or at least no longer "the way" to do things.  

It appears that they even embraced the POE standards (power over Ethernet) which means that you can power a device (like display or gauge) and send and receive the signal over the same cable.
I have used that for security cameras.   The POE standard ethernet switches are cheap (non marinized) and sell for about $10 per port.   Hopefully the new standard runs on common M12 industrial Ethernet cables or something similar.  

This means that it would not be hard to use the little $5.00 WIFI connected board I mentioned with a standard NMEA Onenet network!   I bet that someone has already done that.    

Regarding Bluetooth;   Bluetooth was designed to be a point to point connection network.  Its goal was to create a wireless RS232 type link and it works well at that.   So it can't be used to create a multi node network. 

Dave
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Rocky Sullivan

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Dec 7, 2021, 12:17:17 AM12/7/21
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Jeff Thank you for this information. 

Jesse Tane

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Dec 7, 2021, 4:41:12 PM12/7/21
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A few miscellaneous thoughts (h/t Mason for reminding me to check out this thread):

Wind instruments: I am also in the market for my P30 and would really like to avoid running a heavy and expensive N2K backbone up the mast. If anyone else pulls the trigger on a wireless option (thanks lastresort for the Garmin review) please do report back. FWIW I already have spare 12VDC copper and CAT5 at the masthead. Side note: enlarging the mast conduit is partially to blame for the collapse of my P30's mast step (since repaired, but a story for another thread).

IMG_1060.jpeg

OneNet: the great thing about N2K is that it makes building the physical network no more complex than plumbing - you just plug a bunch of dumb cables and tees together and provide power. POE is great but with most modern wired ethernet variants you can only have two nodes on a link, so it seems like you're sort of back to NMEA 0183 in terms of having to provide active switching hardware for multinode setups? I love the idea of using IP(v6!) for the network layer, but it would be awesome to retain that plumbing-style physical setup. WiFi uses carrier sense (old wired ethernet does too) to support multiple nodes, is 802.11 over copper a thing?

Yacht Devices: Awesome company, I have used a few of their N2K sensors and they just "get it" from both hardware and software perspectives. There is a US distributor https://yachtdevicesus.com that provides fast shipping and support. Looks like the owner is one of the editors of https://panbo.com, he was very helpful answering questions I had on the phone.

Raspberry Pi: I use a Pi 4 as my ship's computer, it works well.
OS: Arch Linux ARM
Internet: AT&T LTE (using SixFab's shield with Quectel's EC25A radio)
Remote access: WireGuard VPN with static v4 and v6 IPs (see isotope.jessetane.com)
AIS: RX only (using Wegmatt's Daisy receiver and a simple serial <> TCP server)
Fun thing: you can consume the ship's AIS feed over the public internet, give it shot with Navionics via "Paired Devices". I'm on the hook in Wrightsville Beach right now so you should see some targets load within a few miles of there:

IMG_1512.PNG

Jeff Griglack

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Dec 7, 2021, 5:36:08 PM12/7/21
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For what it's worth, I have a Davis anemometer that is made for a land base station, but everything is aluminum and plastic.  This is just the part that goes on top of the mast.  The wind speed is transmitted with a simple pulse, and you read the pulses/second, and the wind direction is an analog input. 

I was going to do this with a RPi, but the RPi doesn't have an a/d converter.  However, the Arduino does, so I might just do it on an Arduino board and then talk to the rest of the network where the RPi board is running OpenCPN.

Now I just need more time to actually work on things.
------------------------------------------------------------------
| Jeff Griglack             "Jabberwocky" P-365 #269
------------------------------------------------------------------
| "Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent"
|                   - Walt Kelly
| 'Years ago my mother used to say to me, she'd say, "In this
| world, Elwood, you must be" – she always called me Elwood –
| "In this world, Elwood, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant."
| Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. You may quote me.'
|               —James Stewart as Elwood P. Dowd
------------------------------------------------------------------

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pearson-boats/555f8f01-90ac-4d3c-8afd-a1bff6a7381fn%40googlegroups.com.

Guy Johnson

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Dec 8, 2021, 9:25:23 AM12/8/21
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"a heavy and expensive N2K backbone"
I have a wired B&G wind sensor at the top of the mast. It's an N2K end point and the cable isn't heavy and wasn't hard to run. 
I used a bicycle chain on the end of a long piece of heavy string to pull the wire down the mast. 

Guy
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Subject: Re: [pearson ] Mast Wiring

Peter McGowan

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Dec 8, 2021, 9:36:20 AM12/8/21
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I have the wired Garmin set up. I believe the mast cable had a 0183 connection into the black box at the base of the mast, that box is where the conversion/connection to NMEA2000 happens.

Ted Weeks

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Dec 8, 2021, 10:22:44 PM12/8/21
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not sure why i got this but cheers! i own a 323, she's in ensenada now and needs some work on the spar. good advice on the bicycle chain, i think i will do that to avoid any hang ups when i rewire my mast.

here's to following seas and dollar beers! 

-Ted

On Wed, Dec 8, 2021 at 9:25 AM Guy Johnson <guy...@hotmail.com> wrote:

Tim Smith

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Dec 9, 2021, 7:23:51 PM12/9/21
to pearso...@googlegroups.com
Beast of mast step support. Your design?

Appreciate diacussion of RasPi approach. As taking slow look at instruments and remote monitoring of Oasis. 

Thankful. Stay well. 

Tim Smith
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Jesse Tane

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Dec 14, 2022, 6:09:56 PM12/14/22
to pearson-boats
On Thursday, December 9, 2021 at 7:23:51 PM UTC-5 tbsm...@gmail.com wrote:
Beast of mast step support. Your design?

Yeah, finally got around to posting some pics of the rework, there should be a link to the CAD file at the end:


Experimental grade for sure, but it seems to have held up well and has seen some action (Brooklyn to Key West and back).

Tim Smith

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Dec 16, 2022, 2:28:51 PM12/16/22
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Thank you Jesse.  Great to see what you have fabricated. Happy Holidays to all. 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pearson-boats/8e0a8caf-fa1d-46aa-aba1-dc0c33d8a835n%40googlegroups.com.

Stephen Craft

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Dec 16, 2022, 3:05:04 PM12/16/22
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Jesse Tane, I am interested in how your Raspberry Pi is set up.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pearson-boats/CACXvQDzPdvY2ZEEnjnEWFDaBtRfFDz4Cpe0p4uFd%2Bh3GAVA9sg%40mail.gmail.com.


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Jesse Tane

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Dec 17, 2022, 7:11:35 PM12/17/22
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On Friday, December 16, 2022 at 3:05:04 PM UTC-5 stephen...@gmail.com wrote:
Jesse Tane, I am interested in how your Raspberry Pi is set up.

Hardware setup: dedicated 12V circuit with a 10A breaker, board is screwed through some standoffs along with two radio hats (AIS and LTE) to a wood panel mounted in the quarter berth. Very not fancy. Antennas are mounted on the pushpit rail which keeps the coax runs short. No hard wired display or other human interface devices so I use the Pi's built in WiFi as an access point and interface with whichever phone or laptop is handy.

Software setup is still generally as described earlier in the thread, although I've since added a Yacht Devices NMEA 2000 WiFi gateway (used for hacking this up: https://github.com/jessetane/autopilot-remote).

Anything specific you're interested in? Are you using a Pi on board?
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