Leaking holding tank after an "over fullness event"

[Alptraveler]

Our Scad unit indicated 3 out of 8 dots, we high fived each other thinking we were making progress to a successful reading of filling our holding tank. Our '88 Pearson 31-2 boat has the holding tank ENCLOSED in the vberth so installing the scad sensor made sense. HOWEVER, come to find out, the Scad when it was at 3 out of the 8 dots (we were thinking, wow,not even half full yet) we were actually over full. The pressure caused some seepage,dripping, which puzzled us, and grossed us out. At 1st we blamed the dog but even my Yorkie can't produce a smell of urine that bad (only urine in the tank,no poo or paper-tho it is obvious to us now that there are poo lines on the tank). This caused me to have to dismantle the entire vberth cabinetry so I could get a good look at the tank (mind u, we are on a 3-4 wk trip and now needing to deal with a leaking tank and finding places to put 3 wks of stuff anywhere but the vberth area,including the cushions for the vberth, makes it challenging).

So....

1. NO, there is no leaking at the ports or hoses....bone dry

2. Once we pumped out and flushed the inside of the tank and the outside of the tank all seepage stopped...dah, it better have

3. Once we got to a port we bought some toilet tablets that turn the water blue so we could see the levels better. We marked the front of the tank in 1" vertical increments from the bottom of the tank to the bottom of the fitting that pumps the waste into the tank(14"). After that we added blue water at 1" increments-waited awhile-read the Scad dots-repeated the process in 1" increments. Fortunately,  I was smart enough when we had the urine leak to mark the tank to see if we were having actually loss down from my mark on the tank. Again, NOTHING from hoses or fittings. We got to the 8" mark and thought we were in luck. Nope, at the 9" mark, which coincided with the last known urine mark line started to ooze the blue dye water. Somewhere between 8-9" vertical mark where the water(or urine in normal situations...aka holding tank) sits in the tank causes a leak. It is not running down the sides, I can see and feel the sides,they are dry. I am surmising that when the water reaches the 9" vertical mark on the front of the tank it is also starting to fill the v of the tank that sits closest to the bow. This tells me that I THINK the leak is somewhere in the general area near the bow but at the bottom. This might also explain why the water seeps down along the slant of the tank, does not not show up as leaking on sides-fittings-hoses- below the 8" mark.

I will attach a pdf I found once upon a time of the tank that fits the measurements & shape of the tank that is installed. The only difference, my manual says the tank is 20 gal and this pic says 24 gal. Whaaaat?

I took measurements of my door space to remove the tank if needed. I might need a Rubics Cube expert to finagle it thru those spaces.

 So, here are my questions so I can move forward:

1. If the tank can be lifted and turned over(after pump out I would let the boatyard worry about removing any leftover fluid hanging out below the pump out fitting) is it possible to just repair a minor crack or pinhole in a hdpe tank? I have read about plastic repair kits, many options it appears. 

2. If above can be done how do you find the leak once the tank is empty and rotated belly side up? Light? Once my present blue water seepage comes to a homeostasis of not seeping I was planning on marking the demarcation line around the sides of the tank so we would know to look from that line and above.

3. Has anyone replaced their holding tank and what did you replace it with? Krakor has not returned my calls and there is no way to email them. Size,brand, company?? Exact would be great since I am guessing to remove my existing tank might need to be cut in half(gross, thank you boatyard techs)

4. Has anyone had success with flexible holding tank bags. By success I mean reliability, are pump outs normal like a plastic tank, do they smell, how do they hold up in choppy water situations, what chemical are used differently than a plastic tank. Miss Peggy seemed to frown upon them so there must be some truth to the negativity.

Info would be appreciated. I have spent much time researching and making phone calls and feel like I am no further ahead. I would like to weigh my options so I am informed with the proper info before I discuss a plan with my boatyard. I am in the Great Lakes, Traverse City, Mi area.

The attached pics came from a Google search, they are not mine but they do reflect what I have, pic #1(the pic with the tank specs) and the 2nd pic looks like an option I might be able to use (don't have a way to contact that image owner to know what was installed).

Please, no suggestions re a compost, we are not interested. The Great Lakes forbids dumping and I am not interested in going to a marina and search where I can dispose of my by-product. Many of our marinas are now "clean marina certified", I have never seen anything but pump outs available.

I hope someone has already experienced this dilemma on a very old Pearson. BTW....why in the world did Pearson put their pump out port inside the anchor locker? Why do they have a vertical lift from the head to the poo tank that has an air break but not an over spill valve that would require the deposits to flow up stream for about a 3' rise? Why didn't they ask me my thoughts before they did such a thing back in 1988. Heck, at that time I was post college and knew I knew everything, rt? Even my 1983 O'Day had a safety valve.

Vikki

[Last Resort]

I'm not sure what I'm missing, or you are, but the tank in the pdf is the one I have in my 1990 31-2, but your's in the picture looks NOTHING like it.  Yours seems to be rectancular and only about 1' wide. Your bow area in front is empty compared to mine (would've been great for my other post on my windlass install!).  Also, my V-berth is covered by only 2 big solid pieces of wood, much different to yours.  And then I have a T shaped removable piece that goes across the front of the tank from port to starboard. Also, my fill hose goes in from the stern side at the top and the pump out from the stern side at the bottom.  Only my 2 air vents (I installed a 2nd one) and the see through removable access port (same as the ones in the water tanks) are on top .So if I'm seeing your tank in the picture correctly, it probably is only 20 gallons, whereas mine and the one in the pdf is 24 gallons.  So I'm not sure if yours is an original install or someone went to the trouble of redoing the whole V-berth that way with hinges and such?   My 90 also has storage shelves on each side within the V of the Vberth which are quite handy. Perhaps another 88 owner will chime in and confirm your design as well from the 90 one? 

There is a post on here somewhere about ordering the tank, but here is the basic info. 

email:in...@kracor.com (sent one, but never got a response either)

contact then:  George Edwards

model and price then: model tank number 2-6790 is $482 plus $90 shipping

good luck!

Glen, s/v Last Resort

[darin doherty]

Good afternoon.  We have a Pearson 10 m where the tank was moved out of the v berth and under the sink in the head.  It is old and not in good condition.  We are seriously looking at changing out to a composting toilet instead.  

Where you are looking at replacing the tank, have you considered this option?  No tank, Hoses, saltwater or pump toilet to leak maintain or pump out.  

The benefits, to us, seem to out weight the negatives.  Especially no chance of raw sewage ever spilling into unseen areas of the boat.

Just a thought.

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts, or any one else who has made the switch.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

Darin

P 10m #108

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[Alptraveler]

To clarify, and I think I made that info clear in my post....

Pic #1 is a spec'd pic of the model #5159 which happens to be stamped on my tank but the sticker is completely washed out. ** My tank meets all the specs except front to back is 24.25" vs the 24.75" as noted on the spec sheet.

Pic #2 is a pic I made note of in my post that someone used when they rebuilt/ reconfigured their vberth area and used that tank as a replacement, I think. That is NOT my boat. I would consider that option if.....I can no longer get a #5159 but it came from a blog and I don't know how to get to that person.

I was hopeful that I could either plastic fix the leak or a simple replacement. All I know is that about 1/2 way up the front of the tank it starts to leak. Since my fill mark last nt of blue water to the last known urine leak mark we have lost 3/8" of blue dye water. We are waiting for it to quit leaking so we know the approx area. Not sure I really care where the leak is if I can get a replacement. Can't consider a replacement til I actually get a company to return a call. I need to consider options if I can't do a direct replacement. Not trying to put the cart in front of the horse but sometimes finding parts for an '88 era boat becomes difficult and I need to consider other options(besides compost,not an option for us).

I will include a pic of my actual existing holding tank, and area. I had to remove approx 3 boards and 20+ screws to get full access. Getting the tank to actually get moved out once empty seems simple...2 holding straps, 3 hoses and scad sensor.

I will look into your forwarded info on Monday to see if I can get headway on someone answering the phone and not just leave a message.

--

[Alptraveler]

Darin,

We sail in the Great Lakes, no dumping,period! Our source to rid of anything is getting a pump out. I have never noticed a marina offering compost dumping. For us, a direct tank replacement in our vberth would be ideal. I know other places allow you to open your thru hulls to dump as long as you are 3+ miles out. When the Coast Guard boards our boat for a safety check the first thing they have always done is to go directly to the head to make sure the thru hull is wired shut from the head. Composting is just not a desire for us but I appreciate that it is for some.

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[darin doherty]

In trying to research what we wanted to do, there are a few plastic tank companies that will make custom tanks.  You could send in your drawing and get a quote for one of those.  I have not contacted this company, but they might be worth a call to see what they can do.  https://www.millerplastics.com/tanks/marine-tanks/.  There are probably others you can find on Google, but this is one I was looking at.

As far as the composting toilet, there is no overboard discharge, unless you dump the "pee" bottle over.  Most folks just dump the liquid down a toilet, and dispose of the solids in the trash or compost bin.

The composting head "solid" side is basically dry waste mixed with coconut coir or pete moss.  I know it sounds off putting, and not something a lot of folks want to mess with, but supposedly there is less smell.  And a lot of our time in Florida is currently in the ICW.  Not depending on having to find pump-out stations is  a big plus for us.  But just to re-iterate, there is no overboard discharge from a composting head.

Darin

[Last Resort]

Sorry, I did miss that it wasn't your boat.  Your tank looks alot newer than mine, so a split in the tank seems strange, but who knows.  Maybe it's been rubbing on an edge or something.  I would think fixing it shouldn't really be that difficult if it's small enough.  Otherwise, hopefully you can get a hold of someone at Kracor.  If interested and you want to get to the end of the season, the product Flexseal is a GREAT product, and Flexseal paste is a newer version that does wonders and if you can find the leak, it should get you to the fall if not more!

[Alptraveler]

Thanx, yes, I LOVE Flexseal and have used it on various things. Not sure of the paste, actually, didn't realize they had it. I did read via Miss Peggy+ that hdpe is difficult to repair but farmers repair their holding tanks all of the time vs replace. As you said, how to "find" the crack or...pinhole from my demarcation line up once the tank is out and belly up. We live 5 hrs from where the boat sleeps for the winter so a direct tank replacement MIGHT be an equal exchange of $ compared to boatyard fees per hr.

Our season has until September end and we split out boat time with home time. For the rest of the season we have a plan. The final step is a winter project re the tank, calling the boatyard tomorrow and Kraco, again. Presently, we are approx 9" high on the tank and the oozing seems to be slowing the blue dye,lost 3/8" since last nt. That leave approx 1/2 the tank to figure out the drip/crack. Maybe the boatyard has a trick and a replacement is not needed but a fix. A call to them tomorrow may answer that question. TBC....I will let e'one know. What a gross experience, especially after removing boards and seeing all the dried s***,u*** in there. No wonder why the p.o. said he never used the head and as far as he knows " it works". 

Thank u for your input, really appreciated!

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[Dave Cole]

Polyethylene tanks are commonly welded during fabrication.  There are many video how to videos on youtube.  Likewise they can be repaired the same way.  Remove the tank, find the location of the leak and weld the crack.

No need to replace the entire tank.  Plastic fabricators can repair it for you if desired.

Dave

10M #26

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[Last Resort]

ours has always smelled since we got the boat in 2011.  Around 2016 we finally rebed all the connection threads using a method of putting a thread like wind into the threads with a nice thread sealant , and made sure they were tight.  We found out the hard way like you that they leaked when we had overfilled ours after a "non pump out" that we thought was...the machine wasn't working right and no one noticed :(.  Since the rebedding and new hoses, things have been much better.  I believe the tank is still actually perminating some smell, but compared to before, it's MUCH better!   I know I have no leaks now, so my tank didn't create a leak in the tank as yours has.  BTW speaking of leaks,  if diesel ever starts appearing in the bilge like mine did for weeks, look for it at the bottom of the port/bow corner of the tank...there's rubber there, but mine wore through and caused a hole in the tank that fnally just let go after the weeks of small leaks.  There's a post on here should anyone be interested in the fix!

[Alptraveler]

Thank u, yes, I have watched many videos in the last 4 days to choke a horse. Now, to figure out "where the exact leak is" as I have figured out the approx while installed I  the boat, anywhere from 8" up the vertical. Below that, no leaking. JB Weld has stuff as well as other brands. Tha  there us the plastic welding kit. Call to the boatyard tomorrow is on my list. Thank u for the reply.

Fyi....I did already try to search for plastic tank repair for Traverse City,MI, I didn't come up with anything. Phone calls in order....

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[Dave Cole]

Google "plastic fabrication traverse city".

Three places popped up for me.

If they do tanks, they likely have a low pressure air test setup to check their tanks.  

They should be able to find the leak quickly with a pressure test setup.  

If you wash out the tank well, they will be much more likely to repair it.   

Tell them that you cleaned it out when you call them.  

Dave

10M #26

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[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yout Pic #2 is my boat.  Not an OEM tank and not a P31-2.  Its in my 10M.   Welded polypropylene tank made by Tipple M Plastics in ME.  Apr 32 gallons.  All fittings on top with dip tubes for pump out.   All in/out/vent fittings are at center so hoses wont back flow as easily when heeled (unless tank is really full).  There are three ports for back flushing through a garden hose hookup.  They have valves to keep them from back flowing too.

More on v-berth rebuild
http://dan.pfeiffer.net/10m/v-berth_rebuild.htm

Dan Pfeiffer

On 2022-08-07 4:39 pm, Last Resort wrote:

Sorry, I did miss that it wasn't your boat.  ....
...

On Sunday, August 7, 2022 at 1:47:52 PM UTC-4 alptr...@gmail.com wrote:

...

[Alptraveler]

Ahhh the mystery is solved,thank u. I tried to hit the "go to website" on the pic and it didn't take me anywhere. Now I know, it is not a tank for my boat,thank u again.

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[Alptraveler]

Ok, follow up....

1. When Pearson went out of production so did their tanks. Kracor will only sell to manufacturers and they do NOT have the mounds or means to recreate the tank.

2. I called many plastic manufacturers in the Traverse City area, NONE fabricate or repair, they said they are too busy as outside jobs.

3. I called Plastic-Mart who appeared as if they will duplicate a tank but I got a quick negative on that.

4. We are waiting to get in touch with Titan Tanks,California to see if we can strike gold(3 hrs behind est)

5. I did talk with a guy from a local plastic fab company who confirmed that hdpe is near impossible to repair cuz nothing sticks to it(just as Miss Peggy said). He gave me a new product that seems promising. I watched the video and it specifically says it is for hdpe repairs. The product is called Tech Bond. If we can't find a tank we will be left with fewer options than I had hoped for:

Patch with Tech Bond, composting toilet,bladder tank.

We are not happy campers rt now,frustrated. How is it possible that all the older boats we see on the water has this much difficulty getting replacements for items that seem to be needed? The same guy who told me about Tech Bond told me he hears about it all of the time which is why he sometimes duplicates windows for boats.

*Composting toilet comment is not a dig,just not sure The Great Lakes has caught up with the concept yet. Plus I read articles that a trad head helps resale(not sure tho).

[Dave Cole]

I can give you the name of a shop in Fort Wayne that should be able to repair it.  If they arent too busy.  There is another fab shop about a mile from me that might be able to do it.  But shipping wont be cheap.

Poly tanks are very common in farm country.  They are repaired frequently.

Id probably just repair it myself.

The tools will probably cost as much as shipping.

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[Alptraveler]

We are discussing the self repair rt now. We have another marina who can repair next July,possibly-they are getting back to us, but as they said "At $125/hr + material cost we may as well look for a replacement option". Good point. Also to consider, this can easily be a winter task since we store inside but again, we live 4 hrs south, motel rooms at $100+/nt, fuel,etc adds up to options to consider as to where/how best to spend our $. We are pondering options as we make calls and gather info.

Thank you for the option to ship to your location source.

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[Guy Johnson]

You could use the existing tank as a mold to build a fiberglass tank, if repair options don't pan out. 

Guy

Sent from Outlook

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From: pearso...@googlegroups.com <pearso...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Alptraveler <alptr...@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, August 8, 2022 10:47 AM
To: pearso...@googlegroups.com <pearso...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [pearson ] Re: Leaking holding tank after an "over fullness event"

 

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[Dan Pfeiffer]

Check also with Triple M Plastics who did my tank.  Welded polypropylene.   They are in Maine.  I suspect you will find lead time issues with any fabricator that put this past your fall haul out date? 

http://triplemplastics.us/

I wouldn't expect to have success with any repair that is adhesive based on this stuff.  Welding seems like the only good repair option?  If that particular plastic can be welded? 

On my tank I added a PVC plate to the top that is fastened in place with screws and sealed to the the polypropylene.  It's a wee bit tricky actually with embeded T-nuts so the only place that needs to seal is the edges of the plate.  But if you can get to both sides of the crack area maybe a mechanically held patch can be applied with plastic plates sealed on each side and through-bolted.   Would that get you through the season? 



Dan Pfeiffer

[George DuBose]

https://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=41932&clickid=search

https://www.epoxyworks.com/index.php/gluing-plastic-with-gflex-epoxy/

I would definitely try to patch the tank myself.

George/Skylark

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S/V Skylark
Compagnieshaven
Enkhuizen, NL

[Last Resort]

Same here on the self repair.  Depending on the actual damage/leak, if a small enough hole, I'd just drill a hole, tap it and put a bolt with thread and sealant on it just like we do for the hoses...no more leak.  Now of course if it's a crack that's too big, I like the other idea of 2 plates bolted together with whatever sealant you want inbetween.  My way though won't require access from both sides (yuck, although I"ve done it for my 2nd air vent that uses a thick rubber seal on each side and a molded threaded nut to tighten it all up, which btw could also fix your issue, and just put a closed end on it or like me, add another vent hose...1 takes air in, and the other out). At one point I thought I was going to have to cut out my welded in hose areas as I thought they might be leaking, but they weren't, and I bought 2 very large hose connectors the same as my air vent with the 2 rubber seals and molded nuts.  I still have them should the crack/hole be too large for a bolt, but small enough for about a 2" area to cover the repair. 

[Alptraveler]

Thank you....not worried about the rest of the season, for us, September end. We are looking for the long haul,probably a winter task. Ifffff we can get a duplicate tank we will have it shipped to the boatyard to expedite the change out.

I will call your company as well. We have specs sent in to x2 companies,1 out of Florida who claims they fabricate and approx 6-7 wks time frame. Boat won't go in again til near Memorial Day weekend,  we have time.

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[Jeff Griglack]

You might talk to Ocean Link in Rhode Island.

https://www.oceanlinkinc.com/

On Mon, Aug 8, 2022, 10:19 AM Alptraveler <alptr...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Mike Mayer]

I can second Triple-m-plastics.

I had them fabricate a new holding tank for my 1973 p30.  

Triple 'M' Plastics

Triple 'M' Plastics Foremost in Fabrication since 1972

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[Alptraveler]

Eureka Dan! Holy cow, Katrine who answered the phone at Triple M was delightful to speak with and she knew her stuff. She said

 " this is what we do, custom fabricate". She said they fabricate using polypropylene b/c hdpe bellows,edges break down,etc. They guarantee their work so even if it cost us a nichol it is a great perk for boat resale.

I gave you credit for passing on the company name. I also suggested that maybe they make it more known on boating sites. We have soooooo many boats and marinas in The Great Lakes, many that are older, it would be a great resource for them.

Thank you Dan!

On Mon, Aug 8, 2022, 11:25 AM Dan Pfeiffer <d...@pfeiffer.net> wrote:

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[Last Resort]

Great to hear and KNOW!!!  Please share your delivery times and costs with us so we can be informed for the same decision :)  Sounds like a great business to deal with!

[Alptraveler]

Sent them a mess'g, waiting for a return email or phone call.

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[Alptraveler]

Update: I am still receiving quotes, so far Triple M and DuraWeld. I called to Seattle for a company that advertised custom tanks but apparently that is code for " we will bore in the port sizes and location of your desire". Ronco's answer as well as the Seattle company gave me the answer to "look thru their catalog" tho they mention they will assist.Since this is a winter project we are not desperate to place the order now,$1100+ plus ship price to Michigan. We are heading back up to the boat in 2 wks where we will confirm our fitting sizes for head hoses and vent and present tank measurements before we.place an order. We have a Jabsco Twist'N Turn, they are 1-1/2" i.d. standard.

If I had my druthers, I would buy a rotomold tank that I could fit, knowing it will last the length of time I will be in this boat, $390-400 is more appealing than over $1k,tank only. I still need to purchase top of the line Raritan hose, if I replace the tank it would be foolish to not start fresh with all.

So.....is there ANYONE with a 31-2 that does not have a stock o.e.m. tank that you had to replace the tank and that you could share your tank brand and number of the replacement?

I can't possibly be the only one who has a 1988 era 31-2 that has had to replace a holding tank, am I????

[Alptraveler]

Dan,

Did you have Triple M put an inspection port in your new tank? They seem to seal their ports with screws and silicone the ports shut, I think. I was sent a pic but need to call once I actually place my order.

If so, 4" or 6"? 

Did you use their inspection port or purchase the screw in kind with an o-ring?

Is an inspection port needed?

Also, do you know the "needed clearance" for installing all of your ports on the top? Presently my fittings are all mounted on the front of the tank, centered laterally, except the vent. The vent is on the front of the tank just off-center.

I do have a Beckson like inspection port mounted on the top. I have not desired to open that port in 5 yrs and it was 1 of the 2 locations on this last over fill leak (my Scad sensor indicated I was only 3 out of 8 dots, I didn't realize we were actually that full); x1 at the crack and x1 at the inspection port. However, not grasping if I will ever need to enter the tank or future owner. Just wondering if breaking a.silicone seal may be easier than actually drilling a hole when needed? I know I am asking a lot of questions but at $1200 + ship I want to do this right the 1st time. I originally asked for 6", wondering if that is too large....poly-p, not poly-e?

Presently my tank surface to fitting top is 2-3/4" with 1" spare space before boards. I am not sure my top board above the tank provides that luxury which mean I may need to stick with the present front ports. I will know that answer once at the boat.

See my pic

I like the way your tank ended up fitting your v-berth. My floor tapers towards the bow as well as the sides of the bow taper up, there is no way I could get 32 gals to fit like you did.

 

On Sun, Aug 7, 2022, 9:07 PM Dan Pfeiffer <d...@pfeiffer.net> wrote:

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[Dave Cole]

Id avoid an inspection port in a sewage tank. Are you really going to use it?  If not, its a liability and leak waiting to happen. 

The replacement tank in my 10M was nicely made before i got the boat.  Its translucent so i can see the level with a flashlight.  

Dave

10M #26

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[Alptraveler]

Thnx, the translucent is what we are hoping for. Presently we can not see thru the tank. It wasn't til we added blue dye to the tank after a pumpout to establish where the leak was that we could see through the tank walls by using a flashlight. Unfortunately,  I will never un-see what was inside that tank, a 3-4" horizontal poop line, and to think I slept above that grossness. Your answer re the inspection port is what I have been reading which is why I addressed it to Dan. Since I am starting fresh I may as well do it rt. Doing it really rt would include me to NOT have any entries on the front side, just not sure I get that luxury due to lack of clearance needed on the top.

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[Dan Pfeiffer]

On my holding tank the ports are ALL on top.  there are no fittings on the sides or bottom.  There is no inspection port but I did add a PVC rectangle in the middle to modify the configuration of the ports and put them all closer to centerline to minimize backflow in any of the hoses when heeled.   I put that in with 1/4" machine screws into T-nuts that were sandwiched between the two layers of PVC that were glued together.  So there are no through-fasteners.  That plate could be like an inspection port if I needed it.  But if there wasn't one I wouldn't add it until it was needed.  Then cut a hole. 

Clearance above the tank will be about the same as you have beside the tank with those side fittings.  3 inches?  In fact I would consider re-designing the tank to move those fittings all to the top and extend that side out to fill the space.  Might end up about the same capacity?  All the outlets are dip tubed.  I have two of them.  One is a spare or I can use it for overboard discharge if I every go to the ocean.  So its a spare. 

Dan Pfeiffer

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[Alptraveler]

Thanks Dan, After seeing your pic you sent me of your tank and doing more reading I held off on the tank order til I get to the boat in 2 wks. Once up there I can check my "above clearance" to see if I have room to move the fittings to the top. If not, well, it is what it is. This next trip will be measurements, including my hose i.d. measurements, clean out the anti-siphon to make sure they are clear, sail (of course), than...return home and place my orders.

Just in case.....do you recall what brand dip tubes you used for the take-out?

I will be getting the same tank material as you got if I go through Triple M. Is there anything special you do when you get a pump-out as to inform them to stop the sucking process. I never gave it a thought in the past but once we exposed the leaking tank I was under the vberth during our pump-outs/rinses and I was surprised how much flex the old tank had. It was like a lung, it became concave at the end of the sucking when they were trying to get the last bit of the residual at the bottom of the tank. I can't imagine tearing the vberth apart at each pump-out. Where we sail the marinas do the pump-outs,not us. I also don't want my new tanked sucked inside itself. Like I said, I have always just let the process be the process of pumping out.

What I don't understand....on this overfill situation the extra fluid made its way up the pump-out hose, NOT the vent hose which leads to the outside vent. Our friend's boat accidently overfilled their tank when we did (their Scad sensor also did not provide them the correct level info-but after my warning to them they seemed to have resolved it by reprogramming it again) and their extra "stuff" spilled out the vent, just as it should. When you look at my attachments do you see the vent placement being wrong? Do you have any reasonable guess why it filled the pump-out hose(bottom of the tank at the front and leads to the anchor locker) but did not vent out the vent? My tank was round with air at the top, so obviously the air tube worked.

Thanks,Vikki

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[Alptraveler]

Last Resort...since you asked, the approx quote is $1220 + ship to Michigan. I have not placed the order yet. There is a good company based out of Florida that will make the tank out of poly-p or poly-e, same 3/8" thickness,same wt and same price of each other but less expensive than Triple M. The difference,  Triple M puts their fitting flush to the outside of the tank and does this by adding 3/4" backing plate welded on the inside of the tank. The Florida company makes the tank and heat welds a threaded nipple that sticks outside the tank by 3/4".  If you have clearance issues the 3/4" might eat up the extra needed clearance for the fittings.

Your tank smell....it may not be the tank, it may be the hoses. Flush your tank, maybe let it sit with a mild bleach water or like for 24 hrs, pump-out again. Peggy Hall says to ck your hoses with a VERY HOT rag. Place the hot rag on the hose,maybe rub it, let it cool, do the smell test. If it smells it's time to change your hoses.

We can not unsmell that urine smell in our noses so....we are

 just changing out our hoses to Raritan Sani Flex since we are changing the tank. We have the traditional old fashion white hose in there now(pic shows it) that seems to be standard with marinas. Even if we keep the boat only another 5 yrs at least it will smell decent and not like a men's urinal. 

Attached is the crack, it is at the bottom ofnthe tank where it v's down and where most of the pressure lies. The v sits in thin air, what a stupid design. Since I am not an engineer I can assume they designed it that way intentionally. Why they just didn't make it the footprint of the flat of the vberth flooring I am not sure. Perhaps so the draining goes towards the pump-out hose????

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[Last Resort]

thanks for the info!  That crack is much worse than I'd imagined, so replacing the tank is the way to go in my opinion now. 

As for the smell, and thanks for the suggestions, I replaced the hoses when I went at all this.  The smell disappeared for the most part, but as mentioned earlier this year, it appeared on hot days. WELL, the day I finally got my chute out from under the v-berth to sail, where I also kept my lines in a big heavy duty plastic bag, and when I grabbed it to use, there was the smell permeated strongly into the bag. I got rid of it immediately and since there's been really no smell at all, unless you want to stick your head under the v-berth :)  And the plastic would explain why it was so bad on hot days as it heated up. 

Good luck with the replacement, and I 2nd trying to get the hoses on top if doable with NO access port.  I've actually used the Flex-seal spray to seal mine completely...I think ;)

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Tripple-M did the dip tubes.    Also, the cost is greater the more facets the tank has.  Simple with less seams to weld is best.   Mine was six sides.  Eight would have been a better fit but but the extra capacity would have added more cost than it was worth.  And 32 gal is plenty big? 

I would check to see if your vent was clogged.  You probably did that?  Or could be collapsed somewhere?  I used the vinyl hose for the vents not the clear PVC or the reinforced PVC.  Also I have two vents, one port and one starboard to encourage some cross flow of air.  Easy to add if you have only one. 


Dan Pfeiffer

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[Last Resort]

BTW on your hose replacement,  since I'm on the Great Lakes like you and in Canada where the Y-Valves are illegal to be in an operation mode (They have to be permanently disabled), I just removed mine completely, including the 3' raise and drop, and sealed up the through hull. I then put in about a 10' piece directly from the head to the holding tank, just like a power boat does.  But to be safe on healing, I found a 2" back-flow adapter (it's about 4" square) and put it as level and close to the holding tank as I could and it works great. 

[Alptraveler]

Interesting....don't recall seeing such a thing as the square backflow preventer. I do have a anti-siphon. My direct discharge is unabled, wired shut. My discharge goes directly into the tank. I don't need a ticket, especially if I cross into the n.channel. 

FYI...I spent my summers at my grandparents in Goderich,Ontario and Ipperwash. My sister just moved from London,Ontario to N.E. Canada, like way n.e.

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[Last Resort]

by anti-siphon, you mean the 3' loop behind the head cabinet right?  and that's what I removed.  To be clear, the back-flow itself is 2" round through the square housing.  Do you ever get to the North Channel.  I'm typing from Amadroz Island right now.  I spend early June till Labour Day, all anchoring...I hate staying at docks and never do it except to pick up groceries.  If you ever get over here, call me on VHF 16!

[Alptraveler]

Just left Hessel last wk, west of Drummond, jome now. My slip mates just left the n channel yesterday after 6 wks. We might get to the n channel nxt yr, not sure. The wind has been so bad on Lake Michigan as we approach North that the last 2 yrs we averaged....travel 1 day, spend 3-4 days in port til the smallcraft subsides. There are no anchorages along the way, other than Beaver Island. This yr we were stuck on BI for 5 days. Just as we were going to brave the weather boats came in and said they had 8-10 ftrs out on the water, along with smallcraft. Gray's Reef and the Straits is not a place I want to challenge. I will keep in touch, maybe beckon you if we get up there next summer. Don't you miss actual "sailing" while in the n channel? It seems like you have to motor EVERYWHERE??? Am I wrong? That's the impression I get.

Attached is my anti-siphon. My task on the nxt trip to the boat is remove the anti-siphon components, clean, replace the hose to the vent and prep for the new tank and hoses.

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[Last Resort]

yep, that's the anti-siphon, and I removed the whole thing and replaced the end on the vent to go directly to the tank.  You could also just cut the yellow hose and put a screw in it :) 

Where did you ever get the idea that you'd have to motor everywhere???????  I hardly ever motor and sail everywhere.  It's the best sailing in the world said by many who have even visited from Sweden and afar!   Once most come, they always come back, and many STAY!  I came in 2007 and haven't gone anywhere else since.  I wouldn't even think of taking it back to Lake Ontario where I live and sailing it there if I can't come up here.  What's the fun in sailing triangles!!!!!  Up here you always have a destination for the day when sailing!!!!  Hope to see you next year!  BTW, what's your slip mates boat name?   We may cross paths.  My friends just headed back to Drummond and it took 2 6hr days with a combo of sailing, motor sailing and motoring.   True the winds have been strong at times this year, but there's always a window.

[Alex Alvarez]

Anyone have any insight into what the default behavior should be during an "over fullness" event?

We were always experiencing interesting "off-gasses" when we added things to the holding tank that had a treatment fluid, which should have been an indicator that there was an air coming out of the system.

We further explored this when we noticed liquids seeping down the face of the tank in th V berth and noticed it had leaked out near the top and pooled a bit as well. This is our first overfill event but it looks like their was some previous patchwork repairs attempted to the lid.

Note to self always pump out when you have a gut feeling you should pump out.

Alex

P 31-2

[Alptraveler]

Alex,

As stated this is the EXACT situation that happened to us,hence my post. This was a 1st and only event for us. It hopefully will be the last. Ours seeped down the front side just as you mentioned, from the top inspection port. I am strongly NOT considering an inspection port in my replacement tank.

Do you have a pic of your tank? Is it like mine,stock? 

We use Odorless is our tank as the treatment. It,the tank, almost appeared round'ish, like it was full of gas. Unless there is a block where I can't see, I routinely clean my vent with a straw cleaner and took the parts apart prior to launch.

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[Alex Alvarez]

It appears to be stock. Upon further inspection seems the Y valve was set to macerator and not deck so the first pump out we did may not have done anything unless that valve was moved at some point. I don't believe we are still leaking but we're early on in our journey and still trying to clean out smells. I'll have to try the tablet route as you've mentioned.

I've included an action shot since this just happened and I don't have any other images. Our tank was concave at the top where the pooling occured. I'd personally be hesitant about one without an inspection port only because lord only knows where it would overfill out into, but it seems good discipline or ability to gauge fluid level would prevent this from occurring again.

[Peter McGowan]

Hey there,

Pre-Covid I pulled the drain hose for sink in the head (P36) and now I’m getting around to replacing it.  I don’t recall if it was a simple hose to the bilge sump or whether there was a trap, can someone jog my memory?

Thanks!

Peter

[John Getz]

No trap, straight to the bilge sump in my P36. 

John Getz

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 28, 2022, at 5:52 PM, Peter McGowan <mcgowa...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hey there,

Pre-Covid I pulled the drain hose for sink in the head (P36) and now I’m getting around to replacing it.  I don’t recall if it was a simple hose to the bilge sump or whether there was a trap, can someone jog my memory?

Thanks!

Peter

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[Peter McGowan]

Thanks John

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[Robert Franklin]

Same on my P36

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[Peter McGowan]

Thanks Bob

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[Alptraveler]

Alex,

My tank looks exactly like yours,hoses and all. 

To all who are following:

I am up at the boat, tackling the holding tank and hose replacements. We bought top of the line discharge hoses and...vent hoses. We increased our vent from a 3/8" screened manufacturer fuel vent to a 3/4" mushroom vent(note the attached pic when I had to saw off the 3/8" VENT COMPLETELY CLOGGED). Our new holding tank will be an exact replica of the old except it will be made thicker walled and out of polypropylene vs thin walled polyethylene. Thanks to many on the suggestions, including using Triple M to make my tank, from this site. Katrin at Triple M definitely knows her stuff and is a delight to work with.

Attached are a few pics of the crack as well as the clogged vent. Tho polyethylene is s'pose to be extremely difficult to repair a farming tank company near my boat informed me of a product that sounds very promising for patch repairs. I think we would have used it if our crack was not at the bottom of the tank where the weight would sit of a 1988 plastic tank. The product is called TBBonding, they have a great website with videos.

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[Dave Cole]

I think what they normally do is to route out any badly cracked plastic to get rid of contamination and then melt back in good polyethylene.  

There are videos on Youtube  (The learning channel ) on how to fabricate tanks out of polyethylene sheet.   

I have not done it, but after watching it, I would not hesitate to try it.   Welding aluminum is a lot more difficult than melting together Poly from what I have seen.

So, you too could be a plastic tank fabricator!  ;-)  

Dave

10M #26

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[Alptraveler]

Thnx for the vote of confidence but....I have enuff on my plate and will let the pros do that.My mistakes during the learning curve would be dreadful.

Anyway, too late, $ down on a new fabrication.

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[Dan Pfeiffer]

I looked into this as well and agree with Dave especially for more faceted tank shapes that cost more from fabricators.  But I found the material cost was enough to make the pro fabricated tanks more competitive than it might at first seem.   But I did not dig too far into it at the time.

Dan Pfeiffer