My Rudder Experiences - was: Rudder Removal

[PQU...@aol.com]

The Pearson 35 is very similar to the Pearson Wanderer, a 30' keel/centerboarder. We owned a 1968 Wanderer for nine seasons. She had a wooden rudder which was in good condition when we sold the boat three years ago.

 

We did put sister plates on part of the rudder after a crack developed. These "plates" consisted of quarter-inch plywood that I encapsulated in epoxy resin before installing them on opposite sides of the rudder with through bolts. That system was still in good condition after five years, which was when we sold the boat. Most Wanderers were built with wooden rudders.

 

Our Wanderer was in salt water for the first 30 years of her life before coming to Lake Ontario in 1998.

 

I also installed a Delrin bearing that was about four inches long, just inside the hull where the rudderstock entered from below. I machined that bearing from solid Delrin rod stock.

 

The bottom of the rudderstock rests in a bronze shoe that was through-bolted onto the aft end of the keel. When we bought the boat the bottom of the rudderstock was a loose in that shoe. We removed the shoe, finding four flat-headed bolts that were threaded, two from each side of the shoe, into the opposite side of the shoe, so there were no nuts involved.

 

I drilled out the hole at the aft end of the shoe where the rudderstock rested. I then pressed a plain bronze bearing into the resulting hole. Upon launching we found the rudder assembly to be tight and it functioned smoothly thereafter.

 

After restoration and upgrading, we sold her, as my wife was no longer interested in cruising. See:

http://www.sailblogs.com/member/newp-wanderer/ for more information about our Wanderer.

 

PeterO
Presently Pearsonless
Irondequoit Bay
Rochester, New York

In a message dated 7/21/2010 5:09:48 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, use...@rcn.com writes:

The Tritons had wood rudders I think. Lots of early fiberglass boats did.

 

Dick Usen

-----Original Message-----
From: pearso...@googlegroups.com [mailto:pearso...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Sharpie
Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2010 4:30 PM
To: pearso...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [pearson ] Rudder Removal

I was well aware of the problem with the rudder before purchasing the boat.  This boat was purchased as a project and came at a project boat price.  There was no survey for severial reasons.  I knew what I was getting into, cost of survey would have been more then the boat, and I did not need to pay someone to tell me nothing on the boat worked.

 

Is the rudder wood? Thats a good question.  Did they make them out of wood?

On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 1:54 PM, richard usen <use...@rcn.com> wrote:

That's the lower bearing. Those are typically attached to the hull from the outside. The hardware is typically faired in so you can't see it. Its usually easily removable. The hardest part may be removing the quadrant for the steering cables, assuming you have a wheel and not a tiller. The rudder is usually hung from the top. Is your rudder made of wood by chance? And, where's the boat? You may want to talk to your surveyor who should've picked this up on the survey.

 

Dick Usen

-----Original Message-----
From: pearso...@googlegroups.com [mailto:pearso...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Sharpie

Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2010 10:56 AM
To: pearso...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [pearson ] Rudder Removal

Also the looseness I am referring to is between the rudder blade and the post, not the post in the bearings.

 

Also as many of you know the 35 has a block at the bottom of the rudder attaching it back to the keel.  I don't know if the P30 has the same arrangement or not.  I don't see any way to remove this from the outside.  It must be bolted on from the inside.  Does anyone know for sure?

On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 10:47 AM, Sharpie <sharp...@gmail.com> wrote:

My mistake I should have mentioned that it is a P35 hull #29

On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 10:08 AM, JR Maxwell <jrmax...@gmail.com> wrote:

My response was specific to a Pearson 30.  If another model, may or may not be right.

 

Bob

Shenanigan #940

On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 10:07 AM, richard usen <use...@rcn.com> wrote:

Bring me up to speed. Which Pearson? The rudders are hung from the top somehow, depending on which model. Remove the wrong bolt and the rudder could fall out the bottom. Proceed very carefully.

 

Dick Usen

-----Original Message-----
From: pearso...@googlegroups.com [mailto:pearso...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Sharpie
Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2010 9:55 AM
To: pearso...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [pearson ] Rudder Removal

I just bought the boat and have only had is sense Saturday so I have not totally explored the depths of the hull under the cockpit.  But the rudder is loose on the post.  There is also a crack on the top that runs the center line of the rudder.  So my plan was to remove the rudder and rework it off the boat.  But how do you remove it?

[Peter Ogilvie]

I've got a 1969 P35 that I will possibly be building a new rudder for.  I've hauled the boat once since I've owned it.  The rudder had been removed and some glass work done on it by the previous owner.  The bolts for the shoe were visible on the outside of the shoe probably because of  the earlier rudder work.  The rudder appeared to be glass though I didn't look all that close or grind into it to verify. 

 

It looks like it would be relatively easy to fabricate the rudder out of foam.  An 1 1/2" bronze rudder shaft would probably be the biggest expense.  I priced bronze shaft material a while back and the stuff is more expensive than gold.  My thoughts on building the rudder was to do it in foam.  I'd get a new shaft and bend the section inside the rudder blade.  Kind of make an 'S' around the prop cut out.  That would keep the blade from twisting on the shaft.  Since it's not spade rudder, getting a perfect Aero designed shape is not critical.  It just should be tapered from front to back.  Shape the foam to the desired shape and lay on a few layers of FabMat with epoxy resin, might even throw in a layer or two of Carbon cloth for bragging rights, and Bobs your Uncle.

 

I'm trying to leave for Hawaii so will be off the list for a while.  Plan on rebuilding the aft end of the boat and oyther mods to the interior as well as a total paint job and conversion to a tiller from the wheel.

 

Are any of you P35 owners having control problems?  My boat is almost uncontrollable at near hull speeds.  I'm practically standing on the wheel with full rudder cranked in to maintain a heading.  The boat often will round up despite full rudder and I'll have to dump the main to maintain control.  In the strong, gusty, often changing winds of SF Bay, it's bit unnerving going under a bridge near one of the support Islands not sure whether you'll be able to keep from ramming it.  It would be relatively easy to station someone on the mainsheet and to ease it when needed but since I Single Hand that is not an option.  Despite new brake pads, the wheel brake won't hold the wheel full over while I handle the main sheet.  Makes for some interesting times in close quarters.  Because of this, thinking of adding a few inches to the rudders width to try and get more control.

 

Anyway, keep in touch.  Will be interested in the progress of your refit.  My address is roverhiatyahoodotcom.  I'm sure you are aware of the P35 sight at pearson35.com.  You aren't the owner of hull #29 by any chance.  It's a great site but the participation in the discussion area is very disappointing.  Sometimes think I'm the only that reads it and I'm a relative green horn when it comes to the P35.

 

Aloha
Peter Ogilvie
Pa'akai O'o, Pearson 35 #108
Too many Landrovers, some even run.

---

From: "PQU...@aol.com" <PQU...@aol.com>
To: pearso...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thu, July 22, 2010 2:18:30 AM
Subject: [pearson ] My Rudder Experiences - was: Rudder Removal

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[Guy Johnson]

problems with excessive weather helm are often a symptom of an unbalanced sail plan.
You could try ...
flattening the main, tighten the backstay, tighten the halyard and outhaul
reefing the main
a new mainsail if the main is old and has too much draft
 
Guy
 

---

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 08:43:32 -0700
From: rov...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [pearson ] My Rudder Experiences - was: Rudder Removal
To: pearso...@googlegroups.com

[dugout]

Peter;

 

The bottom of the rudderstock rests in a bronze shoe that was through-bolted onto the aft end of the keel. When we bought the boat the bottom of the rudderstock was a loose in that shoe. We removed the shoe, finding four flat-headed bolts that were threaded, two from each side of the shoe, into the opposite side of the shoe, so there were no nuts involved.

 

This sounds like the same set-up the P33-1 has. Do you remember how you got those bolts loose? I have tried everything I know short of destructive meassures. The P33-1 wheel and shaft are captured behind the rudder center-line post. I would deperatly like to condition the wheel, replace the shaft, and replace the stuffing box with a drip-less shaft seal and to do this its pull the rudder or pull the Yanmar.

 

Ed
P33-1, S/V "Moriah"
Maryland's Famous Eastern Shore

----- Original Message -----

From: PQU...@aol.com

To: pearso...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2010 8:18 AM

Subject: [pearson ] My Rudder Experiences - was: Rudder Removal

--

[richard usen]

Yes. I had exactly the same problem in a new Catalina 38 w/ in-mast furling. Depending o how the main was unfurled and outhauled, the boat was either  a pussycat or an impossible or dangerous boat. It was an interesting sail. Obviously there was a lot that I had to learn to sail it properly.   

[Peter Ogilvie]

One thing that's worked for me in getting frozen bolts unfrozen is a little electrickery.  Take a pair of jumper cables and hook one end to a battery as you normally would.  Clamp a 1/4" or larger bolt in the positive and negative leads on the other end.  Touch these to either end of the bolt or, if that is not possible, touch the negative end to something that is grounded to the bolt like the mast near the bolt.  You set up a dead short, like a DC welder, through the fastener an it gets real hot, real fast.  A few applications of this trick has loosened every fastener I've tried.  The beauty of this technique is you are directly heating the fastener not the whole general area as you would with a torch.  It also doesn't burn the finish around fastener like heating with a torch would.  That's a big plus for getting fasteners out of a painted mast.
 

Aloha
Peter Ogilvie
Pa'akai O'o, Pearson 35 #108
Too many Landrovers, some even run.

---

From: dugout <dug...@earthlink.net>
To: pearso...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thu, July 22, 2010 8:18:59 AM
Subject: Re: [pearson ] My Rudder Experiences - was: Rudder Removal

[Peter Ogilvie]

I'm well aware of the cause and cures of excessive weather helm.  It's just sailing into SF Bay last night I went from a reach with 15k winds which the boat handled with no problems other than a lot of force required on the wheel to 0 wind to 15k to 0 and then a blast of 20k+ winds that sped us up to more than 7 knots which is a theoretically impossible speed.  That last blast had me fighting the wheel to keep from rounding up into a too close shore and eventually had to dump the main to maintain control.  As I'm fighting the extreme pressure required on the wheel trying to maintain course and losing it, know I need to dump the main but can't let go of the wheel to loose the mainsheet 'cause the boat will round up instantly and there is no room for that.  To me it's a bit of poor handling characteristics which are down right scarry when you regularly have to go close to hard or large moving objects in very gusty winds.  If you trim for the gusts, you are under powered for the majority of the wind conditions.  Fortunately it's not as bad as rudder stall as happens on a spade rudder but poor control that I wasn't expecting.  The only other full keel boat I've sailed had an equal or greater weather helm when pushed but control was just having enough muscle to haul on the tiller.  With the P35, you just run out rudder plus needing the muscle on the wheel.
 

Aloha
Peter Ogilvie
Pa'akai O'o, Pearson 35 #108
Too many Landrovers, some even run.

---

From: Guy Johnson <guy...@hotmail.com>
To: "pearso...@googlegroups.com" <pearso...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thu, July 22, 2010 7:49:13 AM
Subject: RE: [pearson ] My Rudder Experiences - was: Rudder Removal

[Sharpie]

yes I am the proud new owner of Hull #29. 

 

Pete

[PQU...@aol.com]

Ed asked: "Do you remember how you got those bolts loose?"

 

Hi Ed,

 

Yes, I do recall. I asked the shop to have at it. They were able to remove it without destroying it. I would assume liberal dosing with penetrating oil, then possibly using an impact driver (and maybe some heat?) to persuade the machine screws out of the shoe. They probably used a liberal dose of patience. IIRC the "bottom" of the screws were through to the side of the shoe. I know that I used the original screws to reassemble the unit.

 

Yes (again), the configuration of P-33-1 is very similar to that of the Wanderer.

 

Peter

 

In a message dated 7/22/2010 2:19:27 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, dug...@earthlink.net writes:

Peter;

 

The bottom of the rudderstock rests in a bronze shoe that was through-bolted onto the aft end of the keel. When we bought the boat the bottom of the rudderstock was a loose in that shoe. We removed the shoe, finding four flat-headed bolts that were threaded, two from each side of the shoe, into the opposite side of the shoe, so there were no nuts involved.

 

This sounds like the same set-up the P33-1 has. I have tried everything I know short of destructive meassures. The P33-1 wheel and shaft are captured behind the rudder center-line post. I would deperatly like to condition the wheel, replace the shaft, and replace the stuffing box with a drip-less shaft seal and to do this its pull the rudder or pull the Yanmar.

 

Ed
P33-1, S/V "Moriah"
Maryland's Famous Eastern Shore

----- Original Message -----

From: PQU...@aol.com

To: pearso...@googlegroups.com

[Sharpie]

Ok I just went out and scrapped the paint off the sides of the shoe.  What I found was three slotted flat head screws on each side (6 total) passing thru and threadding into the other side as described above.  you can see pics here.

 

http://i683.photobucket.com/albums/vv200/pmerritt134/rudderbolts.jpg

 

I colored them with a pink marker to make them easer to see.

[dugout]

Hey Peter;

 

I think I will probably follow your lead and have the yard do it. I'm on the hill doing annual stuff until this heat breaks so it's a good time to have them do it. Those are some Big A-- screws and yes, they just protrude the oposite side of the shoe. Some are SS and some are Bronze so the shoe has been off but...

 

I use the battery heat trick on other stuff but big, like 1/2", machine screws in fiberglass scare me.

 

Thanks!

[Dan Pfeiffer]

With regard to adding width to the rudder,  the way you describe the problem it sounds like there is plenty of force coming back to the wheel from the rudder.  Would adding area just make that worse and make it harder to control? 

 

I have somewhat simmilar problems when flying my 150 on my 10M and I attribute it to the sail being too old and stretched that it gets too baggy and over-powered in puffs.  It is basically unusable in wind over 10 knots.  I don't even fly it anymore.  The boat behaves much better with the 95 though I loose some speed off the wind.  But it's worth the trade to me.  So could you have an issue with the sails?

 

Dan Pfeiffer

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Peter Ogilvie

To: pearso...@googlegroups.com

[richard usen]

Be very careful at this point that you not damage the bolts or you'll end up drilling them out which'll add a whole to chapter to the project.  I have a screwdriver bit that fits in a bit brace that'll transmit a lot of torque and not just damage the slots. You may still be able to buy one or make one up out of a screwdriver.  If you're concerned about your ability, get a good mechanic w/ the right tools to do it for you. The last time these were out, they might have been greased and might come right out. Then again......

 

 

Dick Usen

-----Original Message-----
From: pearso...@googlegroups.com [mailto:pearso...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Sharpie

Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2010 5:27 PM
To: pearso...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [pearson ] My Rudder Experiences - was: Rudder Removal

Ok I just went out and scrapped the paint off the sides of the shoe.  What I found was three slotted flat head screws on each side (6 total) passing thru and threadding into the other side as described above.  you can see pics here.

 

http://i683.photobucket.com/albums/vv200/pmerritt134/rudderbolts.jpg

 

I colored them with a pink marker to make them easer to see.

--

[Peter Ogilvie]

The sails are new and the main is cut flatter than I would have liked.  I did specify a large roach to enhance light air performance so may have to live with the rudder issue.  It's just been tight jaws a number of times near the many bridge pylons in the Bay.  Had the problem with the old main as well and it had less roach.  Since I'm off to Hawaii in a day or two, won't have to worry about the bridges for quite awhile.

One of the reasons that I hate a wheel is I find them very tiring to steer especially when you are pushing the boat.  I find myself leaning down on one of the wheel spokes to add body weight to the strictly arm muscle.  Find a tiller much less taxing to use because you use many more muscle groups with a tiller. That's just one of the reasons that I'm thinking of deep sixing the wheel. I'm sure I could handle a larger rudder with more bearable strain with a tiller.

 

Aloha
Peter Ogilvie
Pa'akai O'o, Pearson 35 #108
Too many Landrovers, some even run.

---

From: Dan Pfeiffer <d...@pfeiffer.net>
To: pearso...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thu, July 22, 2010 3:52:52 PM

Subject: Re: [pearson ] My Rudder Experiences - was: Rudder Removal

With regard to adding width to the rudder,  the way you describe the problem it sounds like there is plenty of force coming back to the wheel from the rudder.  Would adding area just make that worse and make it harder to control? 

 

I have somewhat simmilar problems when flying my 150 on my 10M and I attribute it to the sail being too old and stretched that it gets too baggy and over-powered in puffs.  It is basically unusable in wind over 10 knots.  I don't even fly it anymore.  The boat behaves much better with the 95 though I loose some speed off the wind.  But it's worth the trade to me.  So could you have an issue with the sails?

 

Dan Pfeiffer

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Peter Ogilvie

To: pearso...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2010 11:43 AM

Subject: Re: [pearson ] My Rudder Experiences - was: Rudder Removal

I've got a 1969 P35 that I will possibly be building a new rudder for.  I've hauled the boat once since I've owned it.  The rudder had been removed and some glass work done on it by the previous owner.  The bolts for the shoe were visible on the outside of the shoe probably because of  the earlier rudder work.  The rudder appeared to be glass though I didn't look all that close or grind into it to verify. 

 

It looks like it would be relatively easy to fabricate the rudder out of foam.  An 1 1/2" bronze rudder shaft would probably be the biggest expense.  I priced bronze shaft material a while back and the stuff is more expensive than gold.  My thoughts on building the rudder was to do it in foam.  I'd get a new shaft and bend the section inside the rudder blade.  Kind of make an 'S' around the prop cut out.  That would keep the blade from twisting on the shaft.  Since it's not spade rudder, getting a perfect Aero designed shape is not critical.  It just should be tapered from front to back.  Shape the foam to the desired shape and lay on a few layers of FabMat with epoxy resin, might even throw in a layer or two of Carbon cloth for bragging rights, and Bobs your Uncle.

 

I'm trying to leave for Hawaii so will be off the list for a while.  Plan on rebuilding the aft end of the boat and oyther mods to the interior as well as a total paint job and conversion to a tiller from the wheel.

 

Are any of you P35 owners having control problems?  My boat is almost uncontrollable at near hull speeds.  I'm practically standing on the wheel with full rudder cranked in to maintain a heading.  The boat often will round up despite full rudder and I'll have to dump the main to maintain control.  In the strong, gusty, often changing winds of SF Bay, it's bit unnerving going under a bridge near one of the support Islands not sure whether you'll be able to keep from ramming it.  It would be relatively easy to station someone on the mainsheet and to ease it when needed but since I Single Hand that is not an option.  Despite new brake pads, the wheel brake won't hold the wheel full over while I handle the main sheet.  Makes for some interesting times in close quarters.  Because of this, thinking of adding a few inches to the rudders width to try and get more control.

 

Anyway, keep in touch.  Will be interested in the progress of your refit.  My address is roverhiatyahoodotcom.  I'm sure you are aware of the P35 sight at pearson35.com.  You aren't the owner of hull #29 by any chance.  It's a great site but the participation in the discussion area is very disappointing.  Sometimes think I'm the only that reads it and I'm a relative green horn when it comes to the P35.

 

Aloha
Peter Ogilvie
Pa'akai O'o, Pearson 35 #108
Too many Landrovers, some even run.

 

--

[Dan Pfeiffer]

How is your mast rake?  Can you reduce it?  And what is the headstay sag like? 

 

Agree about the tiller.   But as you know, making the helm balance problem more managable that way doesn't make it go away.  And if you're having to use that much rudder correction you're inducing a lot of extra drag.  How much heel are you carrying through all this sort of stuff? 

 

I would think you should be able to trim for basically fingertip control in that boat in 20 knots with the right sails up (probably a working jib and 1 reef?). 

 

This is a bit silly though.  You know more than I do about all this. 

 

Dan Pfeiffer

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Peter Ogilvie

To: pearso...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2010 10:25 PM

Subject: Re: [pearson ] My Rudder Experiences - was: Rudder Removal

[Peter Ogilvie]

I raked the mast as far forward as a slightly shorter than original headstay would allow but it didn't seem to make much difference.  In 20 knots, I'm down to a double reefed main and about a 100% furled genoa going to weather.  The other night I wasn't heeled all that much, just going real fast.  I saw 7.5 knots on what I thought was a well calibrated knotmeter.   The GPS said 9 knots over the bottom on flat water, no following sea.  If I don't know better would say I had the old girl on a plane.  The weather helm is speed/hull induced which seems to be the case with the older full keeled designs.  With that barn door, unbalanced rudder, there is no way you are going to see finger tip control nearing hull speed.
 

Aloha
Peter Ogilvie
Pa'akai O'o, Pearson 35 #108
Too many Landrovers, some even run.

---

From: Dan Pfeiffer <d...@pfeiffer.net>
To: pearso...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Thu, July 22, 2010 4:44:23 PM

Subject: Re: [pearson ] My Rudder Experiences - was: Rudder Removal

How is your mast rake?  Can you reduce it?  And what is the headstay sag like? 

 

Agree about the tiller.   But as you know, making the helm balance problem more managable that way doesn't make it go away.  And if you're having to use that much rudder correction you're inducing a lot of extra drag.  How much heel are you carrying through all this sort of stuff? 

 

I would think you should be able to trim for basically fingertip control in that boat in 20 knots with the right sails up (probably a working jib and 1 reef?). 

 

This is a bit silly though.  You know more than I do about all this. 

 

Dan Pfeiffer

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Peter Ogilvie

To: pearso...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2010 10:25 PM

Subject: Re: [pearson ] My Rudder Experiences - was: Rudder Removal

The sails are new and the main is cut flatter than I would have liked.  I did specify a large roach to enhance light air performance so may have to live with the rudder issue.  It's just been tight jaws a number of times near the many bridge pylons in the Bay.  Had the problem with the old main as well and it had less roach.  Since I'm off to Hawaii in a day or two, won't have to worry about the bridges for quite awhile.

One of the reasons that I hate a wheel is I find them very tiring to steer especially when you are pushing the boat.  I find myself leaning down on one of the wheel spokes to add body weight to the strictly arm muscle.  Find a tiller much less taxing to use because you use many more muscle groups with a tiller. That's just one of the reasons that I'm thinking of deep sixing the wheel. I'm sure I could handle a larger rudder with more bearable strain with a tiller.

 

Aloha
Peter Ogilvie
Pa'akai O'o, Pearson 35 #108
Too many Landrovers, some even run.

 

--

[richard usen]

I can't say about full keeled Pearsons, but I once owned a full keeled 42' Alden yawl by Carl Alberg designed in the late 30's and it was a pussycat at speed. I once had it out in 75 knots and it felt like a dinghy. I wasn't too happy to be there, but I remember it as a fun sail.

 

 

Dick Usen

[PQU...@aol.com]

Dick,

 

Yeah, when I was a lot younger I used to enjoy many things that now surprise me. Hey, I thought I was having fun.

 

PeterO

[Robert Franklin]

Peter:

 

From this and prior posts, I believe you have a lot more knowledge of the weather helm issue than I do, but I thought this problem is also primarily by rig tuning and sail adjusting.  As the mast is raked forward doesn't that bring the center of effort forward and reduce weather helm?  What about a reefed main?  What about a significantly reefed main and a larger jib? I always appreciate on my Pearson, how much better it handles with the main reduced.  For the strong winds of Vineyard Sound, my main is reefed more often than not.

 

Also, if there is a traveler, doesn't dropping the mainsheet car to leward, eases wheather helm? There are also sail shaping techniques to reduce weather helm, but I will have to go back to my trim books to recall what those are. 

 

Bob Franklin

[pqu...@aol.com]

Bob,

 

All the things you mention are correct and will help ease the issue of weather helm. If I had much farther to go on that voyage I would certainly reefed or even dropped the main.

PeterO

[richard usen]

My point was that there didn't seem to be any bad habits to that hull. It did have a worm gear steerer which made it much easier to control. And, when the wind came up, I had four sails to choose from, and the first furled was the Genny, followed by some or all of the main. On the big wind day, I was beating 7 1/2 to 9 1/2 knots under just stays'l and mizzen. It didn't occur to any of us to get out the life jackets. I suspect your boat may have been an Alberg, and if so, is probably a similar hull design.

[Guy Johnson]

Bob;
The changes you describe match my experience with the 10M.
As the 10M heels it develops a strong weather helm until it eventualy overpowers the rudder and heads up.
The 10M sails much better if I keep her relatively flat.
 
To eliminate this undesirable trait I
adjust mast rake
flatten the main with outhaul, halyard and backstay
ease the sheet to let the top twist off
ease the traveler to spill more wind
reef the main
reef the headsail
 
I currently have 2 headsails a 135 and a 150; I use the 135 when the wind is stronger typicaly spring and fall and the 150 in the summer. Both have padded luffs which allow be to 'reef' them by 10-20%.

Ideal rudder angle is around 5 degrees, just enough to create some lift.
 
Guy
 

---

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 08:10:41 -0400

Subject: Re: [pearson ] My Rudder Experiences - was: Rudder Removal

From: robertm...@gmail.com
To: pearso...@googlegroups.com

[dugout]

Peter:

 

Adding roach can certainly have a negative affect on balance, with increased weather helm. The rig was designed with CCA sails in mind, right? It was also designed to carry a spinnaker down wind. There is no free lunch. What you trade for the possible added light air performance from an extended roach off the wind might demand you reef earlier and more often to windward. Adding additional canvas aft of the mast does have a price.

 

I'm going the other way with a new roachless, battenless, headboardless, mainsail, based upon the way the P33-1 sails and the fact that E is 6% greater than J. I expect greater performance based upon reduced helm pressure, (drag), and better sail plan balance.

The full hoist genoas are also cut higher, clew pendants added, with resulting reduced area. But the drifter or spinnaker are used off the wind in light air. I is 40 feet so this is a marginally "low aspect ratio" sail plan.

 

Ed
P33-1, S/V "Moriah"
Maryland's Famous Eastern Shore

[Peter Ogilvie]

Yes there are many ways to ameliorate the weather helm.  I've tried them all short of recutting the mainsail possibly shortening the foot and doing away with the roach.  Yes, a reef would have been good but I knew the wind would die when I rounded the next point, a 1/4 mile away.  It was the first time that I'd followed the shoreline that closely and the wind had been slowly dieing as I approached the GG Bridge and turned left for Sausalito.  If I had crew to dump the main, it wouldn't be such an issue.  Also, with the wheel forward and the mainsheet and travellor aft, I can't do both at the same time.  The force on the rudder is so great that the wheel brake won't hold it.  I've taken to running a line to a wheel spoke to hold its position when I'm flying on a reach when the auxillary rudder self steering has the con.

 

I'm just surprized that no one mentioned the steering issues as I experienced the problem as soon as I got the boat to the Bay with its gusty and hugely variable winds.  The sails are new, by the way, and would probably have had different specs on the shape of the main.
 

Aloha
Peter Ogilvie
Pa'akai O'o, Pearson 35 #108
Too many Landrovers, some even run.

From: Robert Franklin <robertm...@gmail.com>
To: pearso...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Fri, July 23, 2010 2:10:41 AM

Subject: Re: [pearson ] My Rudder Experiences - was: Rudder Removal

[Bill Robart]

Ed,

I removed the bronze shoe 25 years ago and don't recall having difficulty removing the screws.  The whole shoe is bedded in some rubber material, perhaps 3M 5400.  If that's the case they may have gotten some in the threads which would make removal a problem.  I don't recall that the bolts go  all the way thru to thread into the far side but 25 years has certainly dulled my memory.  I'd try heat and perhaps and an impact wrench.  Huge screwdriver with vise grips might help too. Pulling the Yanmar would sure make working under the aft cockpit a whole lot easier.  Access there is painful at best and always difficult.

Bill

[Dan Pfeiffer]

>From: Peter Ogilvie

>Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2010 11:14 PM

>...The other night I wasn't heeled all that much, just going real fast.
>...
>...The weather helm is speed/hull induced which seems to

>be the case with the older full keeled designs.  With that
>barn door, unbalanced rudder, there is no way you are going
>to see finger tip control nearing hull speed.

 

What exactly do you mean by "speed/hull induced"?   My understanding is that weatherhelm is the result of the force couple of CE (sail force) and CLR (hull/keel force).  The primary effect is that the CE moves outboard as you heel lengthening the distance between CE and CLR with repect to the z axis (vertical) of the boat.  That creates the larger turning force that we call weather helm.  There are exasperating effects from hull shape resulting in asymmetry when heeled but those require heel and you seem to be saying your problem is not related to heel.  

[Bill Robart]

Peter,

Boat speed is not a factor in the weather helm.  Hull shape is and so is wind speed.  As the boat heels weather helm will increase.  Reefing a genoa more than a few percent will yield a lousy shape which will certainly have more draft than is desirable causing even more heeling assuming you keep if from luffing. In addition your windward performance will be very poor at best. The full keel design isn't great to windward to start with, ruining sail shape by rolling to far further aggravates the situation.  If you plan to sail off-shore you'll want a sails for all sorts of weather.  A 150% genny will not do once it gets rolled.  I'd suggest at minimum that you have a third reef for the main, a working jib, and a storm jib in addition to the 150.  The one head sail roller genny concept is heavily flawed for serious sailing.

Bill

[Guy Johnson]

There are some great pictures of the P 35 showing sails, rudder etc. on this site
http://pearson35.com/designfolder/index.htm
 
Peter were you sailing with the board up or down?
 
Guy
 

---

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 11:45:40 -0400

Subject: Re: [pearson ] My Rudder Experiences - was: Rudder Removal

From: wro...@gmail.com
To: pearso...@googlegroups.com

[Peter Ogilvie]

Not being an engineer don't really understand CE and CLR stuff.  Yes the boat was heeled but weather helm has more than just heel in its cause.  On a beat, I've had the rail underwater but still had some rudder left and wasn't making much forward progress till I got the reef in.  On a reach is where the lack of rudder effectiveness in fighting wx helm is the issue.  The boat easily gets to hull speed with winds over 15 knots on a reach.  In that case, the boat is not heeled all that much, maybe 15 degrees, but the weather helm is tremendous.  Yes, reducing mainsail area would decrease wx helm but, hey, I like going that fast.  The real issue is the lack of control in gusty conditions.  My old Westsail had a really nasty weather helm but never ran out of rudder to control it.

 

Anyhoo, I've got to do my last minute preparations as I'm sailing to Kona today.  Yeah, I know it's Friday but can't have much more go astray than already has.  btw, the problems haven't been caused by the boat except as the vessel that holds the systems.  Will give you whole story when I get to paradise.  Will be off the web for a few weeks.
 

Aloha
Peter Ogilvie
Pa'akai O'o, Pearson 35 #108
Too many Landrovers, some even run.

---

From: Dan Pfeiffer <d...@pfeiffer.net>
To: pearso...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Fri, July 23, 2010 5:00:12 AM

Subject: Re: [pearson ] My Rudder Experiences - was: Rudder Removal

[Peter Ogilvie]

Board up.  Haven't tried using the board to balance out the helm largely because the problem is in reaching conditions where the board is normally up.  What did Bill Shaw say about sailing with partial board deployment??
 

Aloha
Peter Ogilvie
Pa'akai O'o, Pearson 35 #108
Too many Landrovers, some even run.

---

From: Guy Johnson <guy...@hotmail.com>
To: "pearso...@googlegroups.com" <pearso...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Fri, July 23, 2010 5:56:50 AM
Subject: RE: [pearson ] My Rudder Experiences - was: Rudder Removal

[dugout]

Peter;

 

Heel doesn't cause weather helm. Heel is a symtom of too much canvas. Rudder is nothing but a trim tab for a balanced sail plan.

Focus on the sails and the rig.

 

Have safe journey!

 

Ed
P33-1, S/V "Moriah"
Maryland's Famous Eastern Shore

----- Original Message -----

From: Peter Ogilvie

To: pearso...@googlegroups.com

[dugout]

Thanks Bill;

 

If I put more torque on them than I have I will break one. I have a square shafted screw driver that fits the bolt sloted heads and can turn it with a 1/2" wrench. The yard is scared to mess with it, too?

I'll start the process of PB Blast, taping, and heat but I don't see how the PB Blast can get where I need it to go... I'm bull headed and hate having an assembly which isn't serviceable. I' can't get past the idea that I may need to remove it under less than ideal conditions sometime in the future. Worst case is I bust them off, right?

 

Ed
P33-1, S/V "Moriah"
Maryland's Famous Eastern Shore

----- Original Message -----

From: Bill Robart 

To: pearso...@googlegroups.com

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Suggested Reading:

Steve Killing and Douglass Hunter, "Yacht Design Explained"

Highly reccomended.

 

Heel does cause weather helm in as much as it creates a lateral offset beteween CE and CLR with respect to Z axis.  That offset creates the turning force.  The greater the heel angle the greater the offset and the greater the turning force (See Killing ch. 4).  You could say too much canvass causes weather helm and heel but you need the heel to create the force arm that turns the boat.  Hull assymetry when heeled also contributes in a coupe of ways (a point made clearer to me on this list a while back).  The assymetry can create lift and the changed shape can move the CLR. 

 

Peter, when you return I would like to here what effect the centerboard has on the problem.  Seems to me the reason to raise the board is to reduce drag when the lift provided by the board isn't as needed.  But if the result is needing more rudder angle to compensate for the loss of lift from the CB you are right back to a drag sitution.  Perhaps splitting the lift between the board and the rudder would help overall.   You may not need the lift of the keel to maintain course but it may ease the load on the rudder? 

 

Dan Pfeiffer

 

 

----- Original Message -----

[Guy Johnson]

Weather helm while reaching - P35
 
Peter;
Reach does that mean an apparent wing angle of about 60 degrees?
Do you have tell tales on your jib and main, were they all indicating good trim?
What about the top tell tale on the leach of the main, was it flying straight back?
Where is your boom positioned when you're reaching?
Do you have a boom vang, was it tensioned?
 
Guy

 

---

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 09:19:30 -0700
From: rov...@yahoo.com

Subject: Re: [pearson ] My Rudder Experiences - was: Rudder Removal

To: pearso...@googlegroups.com

[Peter Ogilvie]

The boat was on a close to beam reach which is where the handling problems crop up.

 

The tell tales on the leach of the main haven't lasted long at all, all are gone in less than 30 sails.  The travellor was all the way to leeward and the sheet slightly free.  I use a four part tackle vang and it was pulled tight.
 

Aloha
Peter Ogilvie
Pa'akai O'o, Pearson 35 #108
Too many Landrovers, some even run.

---

From: Guy Johnson <guy...@hotmail.com>
To: "pearso...@googlegroups.com" <pearso...@googlegroups.com>

Sent: Fri, July 23, 2010 7:05:17 AM

[Peter Ogilvie]

Will play with the board when I get into the trades.
 

Aloha
Peter Ogilvie
Pa'akai O'o, Pearson 35 #108
Too many Landrovers, some even run.

From: Dan Pfeiffer <d...@pfeiffer.net>
To: pearso...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Fri, July 23, 2010 6:57:25 AM

--

[Guy Johnson]

Peter;
I have 3 suggestions
1. Ease the vang and let the top batten twist off, perhaps even way off. Teltails would be worthwhile at least in the short term while you are figuring this out.
2. Lower the center board.
3. Trim the headsail to keep the telltales flowing, both inner and outer.
 
Guy

 

---

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 10:50:51 -0700

[Robert Franklin]

Guy:

 

You might enjoy this 10M story. 

 

I was moored in Vineyard Haven harbor last weekend and a group of boats were rafted behind me, almost within reach as the space there is very limited, designed years ago when big boats were 35 feet and are now 45. The raft included two Nonesuch 30s with wishbone rig and a tiny power cruiser, a funny looking boat with the name "Temporary Insanity" on the side. Not only are the wishbone rigs a little off putting to traditional sailors, but the litle power boat which had a husband and wife sleeping aboatd made the group look a little ridiculous.

 

When I came on deck about mid-day Monday, addled from the incessant heat, a fit looking 50's guy on one of the sailboats, said you better get your awning down, we are expecting a big blow in 20 minutes.  Turns out he had made this prediction based on nothing more than his I phone Radar ap, showing a big bad front coming up from west of Cuttyhunk.  So I began to be impressed and yet quizzical when his movements indicated he was helping his friend prepare for the front, but he actually inhabited the pocket cruiser.

 

However as we battened down the hatches, he complimented me on my P36-1 and then to my surprise said he previously owned a 10M, recognizing the similarily and mentionable sailing characteristics. 

 

The point?  Don't judge a book by its cover.

 

I admired him.  There he was still on the water, regardless of whatever pressures had caused him to downsize.

 

He had sold the 10M, like the rest of us, when kids, school, weekend activities changed the dynamics of his sporting life and tempted though he is, his wife warns against repurchase.  He won't be able to resist for long.  A 10M was just auctioned off in his boat yard for storage fees.

 

I hear a lot of stories like this but, I no longer think of my boat in financial terms.  Its more like a beautiful painting on the wall, that makes you feel lucky to have it.

 

Bob Franklin

On Fri, Jul 23, 2010 at 10:08 AM, Guy Johnson <guy...@hotmail.com> wrote:

Bob;I her

[Mike Mayer]

Wow, I'm going to use that line on my wife.."I no longer think of OUR boat in financial terms.  Its more like a beautiful painting on the wall, that US feel lucky to have it."

Thanks Bob.

Mike M.
P30 #475
s/v Pharon


From: Robert Franklin <robertm...@gmail.com>

[richard usen]

Well, you can drill them out and save the threads if you're lucky. Try putting the square shank blade in a bit brace. You can really put your shoulder on it along w/ some serious torque. Some heat and PBB might work.

[Guy Johnson]

Thanks Bob;
I reaffirm the real value our 10M everytime I visit a boat show, there are few boats I would trade for and they are all over $250,000.
We place second in class in the Crocker Memorial race in Manchester, MA this past weekend. It's a local race and the only one I participate in. I'm very happy with Puffin's performance. With a skilled crew I'm sure she would do much better :>).
 
Guy
 

---

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 16:04:13 -0400

[Bill Robart]

Ed,

If you do remove the bolts destructively I'd suggest drilling out the threaded ends first and see if that doesn't release the head end.  My guess is that have the shoe thru bolted isn't a necessity for strength and that some long wood screws into the fiberglass stub of the skeg would probably be more than strong enough.  How about hitting the shoe with a heavy mallet to see it that would loosen the bolts?  All the shoe does is offer a bit of lateral support to the bottom of the rudder.  It doesn't hold the rudder up. 

I'm going to have to replace my cutlass bearing sometime in the near future and I'm curious to see what does the trick for the shoe removal.  I have a tiller so servicing the wheel isn't an issue.

Good Luck,

Bill

[Dan Pfeiffer]

What is the fastener size?  And how thick is the fiberglass into which they would be threaded?  You would have to drill new holes through one side of the shoe to keep the new self-tapping fasteners stagered.  And what size would they be?  I would worry about the strength with the lateral loads.  They can get quite high with the rudder.  If the OEM fasteners are 3/8 (they look at least that size on my 10M shoe) then you have about 15,000 lbs of fastener capacity to equal for it to be the same. 

 

Dan Pfeiffer

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Bill Robart

To: pearso...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Saturday, July 24, 2010 8:26 AM

Subject: Re: [pearson ] My Rudder Experiences - was: Rudder Removal

Ed,

[dugout]

This is not going to be easy or fast; there are 5, three from port to starboard, and 2 from starboard to port, and 3/8th is as good a WAG as we can get until I get one out. They go all the way through and are visible through a small hole in the opposite side for each bolt.

Today they got tap and rap treatment from both ends and PB blast, again. I took any rudder weight off the shoe today. I fear what I call, Hell in a tube, (3m 5200), was employed the last time. They make more fiberglass and bolts every day so that's not an issue but the shoe is probably unobtainium and needs to be protected through all this.

 

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Dan Pfeiffer

To: pearso...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Sunday, July 25, 2010 6:04 PM

Subject: Re: [pearson ] My Rudder Experiences - was: Rudder Removal

What is the fastener size?  And how thick is the fiberglass into which they would be threaded?  You would have to drill new holes through one side of the shoe to keep the new self-tapping fasteners stagered.  And what size would they be?  I would worry about the strength with the lateral loads.  They can get quite high with the rudder.  If the OEM fasteners are 3/8 (they look at least that size on my 10M shoe) then you have about 15,000 lbs of fastener capacity to equal for it to be the same. 

 

Dan Pfeiffer

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Bill Robart

To: pearso...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Saturday, July 24, 2010 8:26 AM

Subject: Re: [pearson ] My Rudder Experiences - was: Rudder Removal

Ed,

If you do remove the bolts destructively I'd suggest drilling out the threaded ends first and see if that doesn't release the head end.  My guess is that have the shoe thru bolted isn't a necessity for strength and that some long wood screws into the fiberglass stub of the skeg would probably be more than strong enough.  How about hitting the shoe with a heavy mallet to see it that would loosen the bolts?  All the shoe does is offer a bit of lateral support to the bottom of the rudder.  It doesn't hold the rudder up. 

--

[richard usen]

I doubt if the bolts have 5200 since there's no need, but even so, that won't prevent removal. I rebedded my stanchions in tapped epoxy and had 5200 on the threads. By mistake, I put a screwdriver on one and was able to back it out w/ only some difficulty. You'll get yours out OK IF you get enough torque on the heads. You'll need to hold the driver tight against the slot so it can't jump out and put about 100 ft/# on it. A bit brace is ideal as you can really get your shoulder into it and have lots of arm for the torque. An impact driver will work if you can get a good blade for it. You can always drill out the threaded end and re-tap the hole, but that's a last resort. If you don't have the experience, find a good professional before you ruin the head. 

 

 

Dick Usen

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Another useful tool for these slotted head fasteners is a drag link sockets.  Like these from sears:

http://www.craftsman.com/shc/s/search_10155_12602?vName=Tools+%26+Equipment&cName=Hand+Tools&keyword=drag+link+socket&sLevel=1&sLevel=0

You can get them individually or in a set of four.  

[Bill Robart]

Dan,

Do not recall the size of the bolts.  My guess is they could be 1/4 or perhaps even the 3/8 you suggest.  The glass the go thru is solid on the P-33 and I'd guess it to be about 2.5 inches thick and the full length of the bottom of the skeg.   While there is indeed lateral force to be handled, the skeg is quite flexible and with the shoe fitting over a substantial solid fiberglass stub my guess is that a similar sized wood screw as the bolts (yes staggered) would do the trick.  Perhaps three screws per side would fit in the space.   The fasteners keep the shoe in place and the stub of the skeg handles the loads.  I'm not seeing the fasteners as a critical load bearing part of the system.  The vertical load is handled in the cockpit.

Bill

--

[Sharpie]

I see there is mention of 5 screws.  My P35 has 6 screws holding the shoe on.  just make sure all your screws are out 5 or 6 before whaling on it with a large hammer.

[dugout]

Dan,

 

Thanks, the slots are 1/2" x 1/16th"

----- Original Message -----

From: Dan Pfeiffer

To: pearso...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Sunday, July 25, 2010 9:20 PM

Subject: Re: [pearson ] My Rudder Experiences - was: Rudder Removal

Another useful tool for these slotted head fasteners is a drag link sockets.  Like these from sears:

http://www.craftsman.com/shc/s/search_10155_12602?vName=Tools+%26+Equipment&cName=Hand+Tools&keyword=drag+link+socket&sLevel=1&sLevel=0

You can get them individually or in a set of four.  

 

Dan Pfeiffere

 

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: richard usen

To: pearso...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Sunday, July 25, 2010 9:10 PM

Subject: RE: [pearson ] My Rudder Experiences - was: Rudder Removal

I doubt if the bolts have 5200 since there's no need, but even so, that won't prevent removal. I rebedded my stanchions in tapped epoxy and had 5200 on the threads. By mistake, I put a screwdriver on one and was able to back it out w/ only some difficulty. You'll get yours out OK IF you get enough torque on the heads. You'll need to hold the driver tight against the slot so it can't jump out and put about 100 ft/# on it. A bit brace is ideal as you can really get your shoulder into it and have lots of arm for the torque. An impact driver will work if you can get a good blade for it. You can always drill out the threaded end and re-tap the hole, but that's a last resort. If you don't have the experience, find a good professional before you ruin the head. 

 

 

Dick Usen

-----Original Message-----
From: pearso...@googlegroups.com [mailto:pearso...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of dugout
Sent: Sunday, July 25, 2010 8:24 PM
To: pearso...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [pearson ] My Rudder Experiences - was: Rudder Removal

This is not going to be easy or fast; there are 5, three from port to starboard, and 2 from starboard to port, and 3/8th is as good a WAG as we can get until I get one out. They go all the way through and are visible through a small hole in the opposite side for each bolt.

Today they got tap and rap treatment from both ends and PB blast, again. I took any rudder weight off the shoe today. I fear what I call, Hell in a tube, (3m 5200), was employed the last time. They make more fiberglass and bolts every day so that's not an issue but the shoe is probably unobtainium and needs to be protected through all this.

--

[richard usen]

Get the small Sears socket and an impact wrench. They'll back right out.

[dugout]

Dick;

 

The screwdriver I have is large enough for me to get good inward pressure and with a large crescent wrench close to the blade I can build some serious torque, all these bolts can handle, without damaging the slots. I'll continue with the foreplay for a while but eventually we will have to get on with the program. If/when I bust a head off one of the bolts I think they are large enough to clear the wreckage, drill, and get an easy out into them. Otherwise I will just drill them out. If I have to fill, drill, and tap the holes after getting the bolts out I'm okay with that. I will look for some square or hex socket head bolts to replace these with, also.

 

The tapping, rapping, and PB Blast continues. Man it was nice out today! That was a buster of a front that rolled through yesterday. It dropped 25 degrees and wind went from light SE to 40-50 NW in a blink. Glad it didn't catch me with a drifter and a shoot out... <LOL>

 

 

Ed

----- Original Message -----

From: richard usen

To: pearso...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Sunday, July 25, 2010 9:10 PM

[dugout]

OkayDick/Dan;

 

I'll try it. I have the Snap-On cordless Impact on the charger and I'm headed to sears after super.

 

I even found my 1/2" drive speed wrench/ brace, but...

 

Ed

[richard usen]

I suspect you'll be surprised how easily they come out after you get the tooling right. The hard part will be how hard you can lean on the driver. The torque is the easy part. Good luck. And, let us know how you make out.

[Jeff Griglack]

I agree with Dick.  I have had better luck with the hand powered (hammered) impact wrench than with the air driven impact wrench I have.  The air driven one tends to just destroy things, powering right through bolt heads.
------------------------------------------------------------------
| Jeff Griglack                  "Blithe Spirit" P-30 #182
------------------------------------------------------------------
| "Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent"
|                   - Walt Kelly
------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guy Johnson]

I have removed many wood screws from the planking of a friends boat using a bit brace.
Like Dick says with the brace you can get lots of pressure against the screw head and more than enough torque.
Probably the biggest advantage of using the bit brace is the feel, you can feel the screw moving and even develop a sense of the entire screw turning vs. the head being twisted off. You just dont' get that sort of feel with the other tools.
Which ever tool you use, it's important that your screwdriver fit the slot and that the edges on the screwdriver (or bit) are square and sharp; rounded edges let the bit walk out of the slot.
 
Guy
 

---

Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2010 09:27:12 -0400

Subject: Re: [pearson ] My Rudder Experiences - was: Rudder Removal

From: grig...@gmail.com
To: pearso...@googlegroups.com

[richard usen]

Gee, now there are two of us that use those things. Are the bits still available? Someone walked off w/ my big one. For that matter, does anyone still use a bit brace? Mine goes back to my childhood.

[Steve Reevy]

I'd bet there aren't that many of us that own one. I only seem to use mine for those rare occasions when I want to go real slow - like backing out a reluctant slotted-head screw or making a hole where the position has to be EXACTLY right. And Dick's right: hand-RPM bits aren't that common.   Steve Steve & Dawn Reevy s/v Weatherlight 1974 Pearson30 #531 Falmouth, Maine USA --- On Tue, 7/27/10, richard usen <use...@rcn.com> wrote:

[Guy Johnson]

I think you can still get the Brace at WoodCraft and Jamestown Distributers.
Wow, couldn't find the 'real' driver bits for a brace only the 1/4" socket style at Jamestown.
I guess it all flea markets and antique shops now.
 
I find I'm better with a power tool if I've learned to use the hand tool first.
 
My favorite weed whacker is a scythe with a brush blade.
 
 
http://www.woodcraft.com/Catalog/ProductPage.aspx?prodid=23527
http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/show_product.do?pid=441&familyName=Hex+Auger+Driver+Bits
 
Guy
 

---

From: use...@rcn.com

To: pearso...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [pearson ] My Rudder Experiences - was: Rudder Removal

Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2010 10:54:51 -0400

[Jeff Griglack]

I have a bit brace and a bunch of bits that I picked up at a yard sale about 10 years ago.  It comes in very handy at times.  You can buy a set of bits here:
http://www.tias.com/8600/PictPage/3923656249.html

or, you can get a 1/4" hex socket bit here:
http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?c=&p=32300&cat=1,180,42337&ap=1

Another good resource for these tools is eBay.

Jeff

------------------------------------------------------------------
| Jeff Griglack                  "Blithe Spirit" P-30 #182
------------------------------------------------------------------
| "Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent"
|                   - Walt Kelly
------------------------------------------------------------------

[PQU...@aol.com]

I've actually got two bit braces, as well as my father's set of bits from 1/4" to 1", in a nice wooden case.

 

PeterO

 

In a message dated 7/27/2010 11:38:24 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, svweath...@yahoo.com writes:

I'd bet there aren't that many of us that own one. I only seem to use mine for those rare occasions when I want to go real slow - like backing out a reluctant slotted-head screw or making a hole where the position has to be EXACTLY right. And Dick's right: hand-RPM bits aren't that common.   Steve Steve & Dawn Reevy s/v Weatherlight 1974 Pearson30 #531 Falmouth, Maine USA --- On Tue, 7/27/10, richard usen <use...@rcn.com> wrote:

From: richard usen <use...@rcn.com> Subject: RE: [pearson ] My Rudder Experiences - was: Rudder Removal

To: pearso...@googlegroups.com Date: Tuesday, July 27, 2010, 10:54 AM

[Sharpie]

I just removed all 6 screws from my rudder shoe.  I used a 3/8 x 10 flat blade screwdriver with an adjustable wrench on the shaft.  I had sprayed them with penetrating oil over the past few days.  One screw give me a bit of trouble but with the help of a friend (he applied pressure to the screwdriver while I rotated it the the wrench.)  I was able to get it with minimal damage to the screw head.

 

That done, Now what?

Pete

P35 #29

[dugout]

They are used all the time. They are a little different than a real brace ment for boring bits but the same principal. They call them "speed wrenches" or "speeders" and they have socket drives 1/4, 3/8, 1/2, and 3/4". The blade sockets are common but not as big as 1/2"X1/16".

 

The Craftsman drag link blades need some work to fit the slotted bolts...

 

The Snap-on cordless impact wrenches 3/8 and 1/2 are my favorite power tools with good torque and control. Now if I realy need to break something I have a 3/4" drive 1200ft/lb IR air wrench. It's great for tractor tire lug nuts and anything else until the sockets blow out!

[richard usen]

Its Miller time!

 

 

Dick Usen

-----Original Message-----
From: pearso...@googlegroups.com [mailto:pearso...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Sharpie
Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2010 1:18 PM
To: pearso...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [pearson ] My Rudder Experiences - was: Rudder Removal

--

[richard usen]

Yup, if you can't handle hand work, power tools can get you in trouble.

[richard usen]

Speeders flex and absorb too much of the 'push' force. But, they're better than a straight screwdriver. 

[Ed Davis]

This is a long over due thank you to Richard Usen for the recommendation to try a Brace on some stubborn rudder shoe screws, a while back. OMG, what a great tool! In the age of cordless power the brace has become one of my best go to solutions. It has the unique property of finesse and feel while delivering considerable torque. THANKS Richard!

 

Ed
P33-1, S/V "Moriah"
Maryland's Famous Eastern Shore

----- Original Message -----

From: Sharpie

To: pearso...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2010 5:27 PM

Subject: Re: [pearson ] My Rudder Experiences - was: Rudder Removal

Ok I just went out and scrapped the paint off the sides of the shoe.  What I found was three slotted flat head screws on each side (6 total) passing thru and threadding into the other side as described above.  you can see pics here.

 

http://i683.photobucket.com/albums/vv200/pmerritt134/rudderbolts.jpg

 

I colored them with a pink marker to make them easer to see.

[Richard Usen]

You’re more than welcome. When you need torque and not impact, that’s the way to go. Does anyone know where you can buy bits for them?

[Guy Johnson]

jamestown distributers
 

---

From: use...@rcn.com
To: pearso...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [pearson ] Brace
Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2011 07:46:45 -0400

[Ed Davis]

I have a good assortment picked up on eBay. The general world doesn't seem to value brace bits very high. They are cheap for good quality stuff. Lots of old "Stanley" and "Millers Falls" Brace support.

 

Ed

----- Original Message -----

From: Richard Usen

To: pearso...@googlegroups.com

[Jeff Griglack]

I have several auger bits that I bought at the same yard sale where I bought the brace.   I think I saw a woodworking catalog selling new ones, but don't remember who.

| Jeff Griglack                  P30  # 182

On Jul 23, 2011 7:46 AM, "Richard Usen" <use...@rcn.com> wrote:
> You're more than welcome. When you need torque and not impact, that's the
> way to go. Does anyone know where you can buy bits for them?
>
>
>
> From: pearso...@googlegroups.com [mailto:pearso...@googlegroups.com]
> On Behalf Of Ed Davis
> Sent: Friday, July 22, 2011 12:08 PM
> To: pearso...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: [pearson ] Brace
>
>
>
> This is a long over due thank you to Richard Usen for the recommendation to
> try a Brace on some stubborn rudder shoe screws, a while back. OMG, what a
> great tool! In the age of cordless power the brace has become one of my best
> go to solutions. It has the unique property of finesse and feel while
> delivering considerable torque. THANKS Richard!
>
>
>
> Ed
> P33-1, S/V "Moriah"
> Maryland's Famous Eastern Shore
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>