Questions of OS's and, more importantly, does going live make music more valid?

[Nevyn Nowhere]

Dual question here, let's go one way with the subject, and another with the body.

1) Does making music in a live atmosphere make your music more relevant?

I argue yes...because certainly music is about what you are putting out first and foremost.  It's a recognition of your soul/talent/expression/what you want to call it.  But ultimately, when you see how/what/why affects other folks... you can not only ride in your perspective, but in those of others.  When you play out, you get response. When you play from you bedroom, via recorded, you only hear yourself.  What is your argument, and why?

2) You make electronic music.  So, do you do it hardware or software, or both?  If you use software, are you a mac man or windows man... and why?  What software is your flavor?  And yes, why?

Nevyn Nowhere
http://www.happyhumans.org
Sad Music for Happy Humans

PS: BURNOUT Burning Man Decompression happens on Nov 15th... SMHH, Ryze + Fall, Endokryn, and Mystic Spatula will all be playing (ie people who have affiliation with this list).

[Eric Haugen]

1)       I’ve never made music in a live atmosphere.  There is something to be said for being able to do a live PA set though.  If done right, a live PA set can be way more exciting than any dj or turntablist could hope to be.  Sadly, it’s why I don’t enjoy laptop sets though, they are boring to watch.

 

2)       I use software.  Currently I’m running Windoze XP and FL 7 w/ a bunch of effects and            softsynths.  I can’t afford hardware right now and my PC is too darn slow to be able to record and manipulate MIDI in realtime, so I heavily use FL’s automation features to get the effect I’m looking for.   I’ve been eyeballing that Linux distribution that’s customized for music production.  That does look pretty sweet!

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1772 - Release Date: 11/6/2008 8:23 PM

[danielquasar]

1. Well as far as I'm concerned. I used to believe that going live was
the only way to express myself musically. Yes it makes for a more real
show but what about us musicians who can't afford anything really to
be able to pull it off? My music sounds great as a track and I want to
convey that perfection on stage too. Don't get me wrong, I am teaching
myself to sing and play keyboard at the same time for the purpose of
at least being "semi-live". So, I believe that music done period is
relevant. Regardless of how it is conveyed to a live audience. It
would be wrong of me to think my own music wasn't relevant just
because I can't play it "live".

2. I run Windows XP and, software, Reason 3 (now with a 4 octave
keyboard through MIDI). I can't afford hardware nor would I even
really know what to do with it. I like my setup though I do wish I had
a stronger computer so it could handle the more complex songs. I mix
most of my stuff in Reason but sometimes, when I want to go for
vocals, I move each track into Sonar 4 Producer Edition and record and
mix there. As far as Windows, I've always been a PC man so I'm just
used to it. I use Reason because it is what was given to me by a
friend and what started this mess I call my music career. Sonar 4 was
a recommendation as well.

Yup them there's my answers. ;)

On Nov 7, 1:07 am, "Nevyn Nowhere" <nevynnowh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Dual question here, let's go one way with the subject, and another with the
> body.
>
> 1) Does making music in a live atmosphere make your music more relevant?
>
> I argue yes...because certainly music is about what you are putting out
> first and foremost.  It's a recognition of your soul/talent/expression/what
> you want to call it.  But ultimately, when you see how/what/why affects
> other folks... you can not only ride in your perspective, but in those of
> others.  When you play out, you get response. When you play from you
> bedroom, via recorded, you only hear yourself.  What is your argument, and
> why?
>
> 2) You make electronic music.  So, do you do it hardware or software, or
> both?  If you use software, are you a mac man or windows man... and why?
> What software is your flavor?  And yes, why?
>

> Nevyn Nowherehttp://www.happyhumans.org

[Nevyn Nowhere]

My music sounds great as a track and I want to
convey that perfection on stage too.

I suppose we must define relevant.  Certainly the perfect sound you bring from your internal to convey to others is quite relevant in that context.  I suppose I was more speaking of the relevancy of music as a method of communicating, and how playing live lets you listen to those who are listening to you, albeit in a different sense.

-nn

[mystical spatula]

On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 1:07 AM, Nevyn Nowhere <nevynn...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dual question here, let's go one way with the subject, and another with the body.

1) Does making music in a live atmosphere make your music more relevant?

Not necessarily... Recording is its own art. There's something magical about a well crafted album. Like a Sgt Pepper or a Dark Side. You can go back to a good album over and over and discover something new. Most albums are boring though....

Live music is about the moment... something special that is shared with the audience... When an act and audience are both creating that moment, it can be magical in its own right. Most bands tend to be aloof... not acknowledging or even relating to the audience.... playing the same arrangements they recorded in the studio... of course, the audience can suck too... either not paying any attention or bringing in certain expectations rather than an openness to the moment.

 

2) You make electronic music.  So, do you do it hardware or software, or both?  If you use software, are you a mac man or windows man... and why?  What software is your flavor?  And yes, why?

I haven;t gone the software route... yet. I want to be open to the moment and not force anything canned on an audience.... not saying that the software can't get there for some... just not me... yet.

 

[Daniel Thompson]

Understood. I wish I could do more stuff live but that requires more than I have or can afford. I try and use myself more as my communication with the audience rather than doing that with my music.

--
Daniel Thompson - Quasar - Sailorqsr

[Nevyn Nowhere]

Not necessarily... Recording is its own art. There's something magical about a well crafted album. Like a Sgt Pepper or a Dark Side. You can go back to a good album over and over and discover something new. Most albums are boring though....

Again, I think relevancy should be defined.  For I agree with you, those albums are relevant.  For their time.  But what about now?  in this day and age where everyone has an album or million, to where fans are outnumbered by musicians (in certain subgenres/subscenes/et al).  When I see folks hitting people not because of media hype, scene shite, etc... it's because they communicate with, and utilize their music communicatively, their audience.

There will not be another Dark Side. There are too many options nowadays.  So, while I also like to put out what I feel (and do that)... I also realize that while I don't need to sacrifice my passion I wish to put out... I can look at all the sides/aspects of what I wish to put out, and find which of those ways (and how) affect people.

And that does change the music I make.  But does it make me sacrifice what I wish to make?  not at all.  It's about looking within the bounds of what you want to do... AND within the bounds of what people what to hear, and finding the happiest medium.  To me at least.

-nn
happyhumans.org

PS: I'm totally doing some badass Yma Sumac mix/remix (take samples, write lines, mix/remix, reform) tracks.  To be debuted at the burning man decompression nov 15th.

btw, endokryn, ryze + fall, mystic spatula, specops and I think another one or two from this list will be playing at this event.  Goes from 3pm to 3am and beyond.  Do hope to see you all there (solovox, Nico Luminous, march forth and more will also be there).

[bubbles]

Hi folks,

As to

>> [EM bands]not acknowledging or even relating to the audience

I think that we're somewhat missing the point here. This is
Electronic music we are talking about here. The so called Live
expeirance is very different for folks who listen to EM as opposed to
all other types of music, except maybe aspects of punk, because of
the fact that the music tends to be secondary to the social context.
Let's think Burning man. You go for the people and the interaction
with people, rather than to admire and be awed by a single or band of
musicians. Most people don't pay the several hundred dollars for a
ticket to burning man just to go see a "Band". In my expierence
those music listeners seeking electronic music out are not inclined
to have the typical rockstar/audience relationship.

As to Darkside and its relevancy

Lets think for example about the method of delivery of electronic
music. I'm sure that we can agree that most listeners of EM are not
using cassettes and are most likely purchasing, listening, and
interacting with EM through a computer. And while first world
societies will be 80% connected in about 10 years, right now there is
no wide spread accesses to wireless internet. Therefor EM listeners
are most likely having a much more solitary expeirance with their
music. That expierence is similar in scope and history to that of
Darkside, both at its release and now,
making Darkside of the Moon still completely relevant.

The Album isn't dead, its just sleeping.
bubbles

P.S. Listen to my concept albums "Commuter" and "Fruits" at
www.bubblesmusic.net/music.html

[mystical spatula]

I don't know... there is an interaction with EM between audience and performer. It might be a shared enjoyment of the moment (..especially in the case of Burning Man) rather than song delivery like in the case of a rock band. Still, the performer still can drive or betray the experience of the audience.... bring them up and gently back down at the right time... throw in surprises... etc. I find I am either completely bored by EM or really enjoy it. Most of that has to do with how much the experience feels "live" rather than canned.

[bubbles]

> ...a shared enjoyment of the moment...
> ...rather than song delivery like in the case of a rock

> band. Still, the performer still can drive or betray the experience of
> the audience....

I agree, let's explore this further,

I have not seen in concert the founders of much of the Electronic
Music I listen to and that influences my music. In particular,
Squarepusher and Aphex Twin(or incarnation of). I have, though, seen
Autechre which on record is a major shaping figure in the ambient
parts of my music. I have also seen Coldcut, who have also greatly
influenced me.

Autechre was greatly disappointing , Coldcut was phenomenal. I think
that much of that had to do with the relationship of listening to my
Autechre records at home and being able to both ignore and intently
listen to it at the same time. Something difficult when I'm out with
friends at a show. Coldcut being the opposite. I preferred their
Live experience to their records because of the greater manipulation
of their material to interact with the crowd.

Bring it back to the beginning,

As a listener of Electronic music who have you seen and how did it affect
how your view EM. What aspects were good; what was bad? What was their
set up like? What was the social aspect like?

Luvin' the thinking!
bubbles
www.bubblesmusic.net

[Nevyn Nowhere]

    I think that we're somewhat missing the point here.  This is

Electronic music we are talking about here.  

Which is so many different things to so many different people.  Saying that is like saying "this is guitar music people" and then realizing that can mean blues/jazz/experimental/folk/flamenco/psychedelic/grunge/etc and sososo many other.  ie "Electronic Music" just means we're using instruments that might be virtual, that might be electronic boxes, etc... .instruments which need electricity to be heard.  Within that realm we have so many different genres/subgenres and, more importantly, approaches as to even how to make whatever type of music it is.
 

The so called Live
expeirance is very different for folks who listen to EM as opposed to
all other types of music,

I think that people who listen to DJ music, or anything techno derivative, have different motivations for what they get from shows than folks who came to EM a different method, via songs (aphex twin, boards of canada, orb, orbital, bjork, et al).  As well, how they got into EM, via listening at home/on recorded medium.... or from live shows/raves whatever... affects.  I'd be interested in hearing your take on not just EM experience vs "other types", but also the differences between different types of EM (as this list is hopefully working towards finding a way to help such different ways work together).

 

except maybe aspects of punk, because of
the fact that the music tends to be secondary to the social context.

Why that delineation? I find punks who only listen to punk music do so because they go out to scenes for the social context, and if they wish to have the things in common with those folks, will find a point of commonality, ie listen to the hell out of punk so that they can talk about those things with others who go to the show.  Sure, when they go, they like the energy of the music, and the people... but punk is no more or less focused on the individual than any other form of modern guitar based music.  People like to obsess over personality and life of the performer (imho, lyrics are what cause this phenomena), but they obsess to a moreso degree on the genre because that is a big part of what gets them socially accepted (mental look, but then also physical look; diff degrees in diff scenes/amongst diff people).

Let's think Burning man.  You go for the people and the interaction
with people, rather than to admire and be awed by a single or band of
musicians.  

I haven't been in years, but I've been a few odd years.  And BM is a lot different from a show, so let's recognize that.  BM in itself is an experience.  One of music, art, debauchery, testing human stamina, community et al.  But it's a festival.  What about Coachella?  Something which is WAY smaller, in scope and duration, but still is a "festival" more than a show.  Do you think people aren't going there for community?  Sure, they love some of the acts, but they're going to hang out arounda  bunch of people like them, who like the stuff they do.  Same with any festival.  If you had a big EM festival with the big names that have been around for years, fans of EM would be doing the same thing.  When you talk about the smaller scale stuff that we do, ie shows that only last a night, without "big names" (what makes a name big is a different question) that "everyone" knows... it's more about the social AND music ie how it sounds... and less the focus on obsessing over an individual personality (that idea, to me, more embraces the difference of EM vs non EM... EM might sometimes use samples or a vocalist even, but the focus is more on the sonics, more on the frequencies hitting the eardrum along with words that evoke said frequency... than a lyrical story obviously and directly spelled out.  erego less human external connection.  the connection lies in what the self finds with what is around them).

Most people don't pay the several hundred dollars for a
ticket to burning man just to go see a "Band".  In my expierence
those music listeners seeking electronic music out are not inclined
to have the typical rockstar/audience relationship.

And yet such happens... there just isn't as wide an audience.  EM outfits like Aphex, Boards, Portishead, Squarepusher, DJ Shadow, DJ Spooky, Diplo, etc all have those treat said EM artists as rock/etc fans treat their folks.  I do think when talking about EM music and audience interaction, one must recognize that DJ vs live EM/PA whatevs is different, generally speaking, and with their various anamolies).

  Therefor EM listeners
are most likely having a much more solitary expeirance with their
music.  

When was the last time you were into music that wasn't EM?  So as to develop a point of understanding where you're coming from... Because I know I actually listen to "song structured" music (EM or not) in a solitary sort of listening experience far more than I listen to less "song structured" EM music socially.  ie if it's DJ, or breakcore or... something that doesn't have traditionally considered song structure, but is more layer/frequency... 98% of the time I'm listening to it in a club.  The things I listen to in a solitary manner are EM that is more about making a song, or non EM that is that.

Now define song and structure. ;)

-nn
happyhumans.org

[Nevyn Nowhere]

On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 12:37 PM, mystical spatula <mystica...@gmail.com> wrote:

I don't know... there is an interaction with EM between audience and performer.

I'm completely with you.  It's music.  If it's just a "dance night with electronic music" less so.... but there are many different kinds of electronic music.  If it's a "dance night" or "scene night" people go less for the specific music and more because of the social aspect.  If it's music that isn't traditionally (4 on the floor or some derivative... hell, even jungle/dnb runs by formula... maybe that's it, if it is music that doesn't run by formula, but feeling) "dance", or doesn't have a scene... the people that show up there show up for the music in itself on the forefront... and for the social "might meet people of my mentality/that I like" more secondarily.  Evinced by the folks at said shows who talk to no one or few, which is much more prevalent than if a night is an "electronic music dance night".
 

Most of that has to do with how much the experience feels "live" rather than canned.

That's exactly what I'm saying.  How is it different from if you just listened to it at home?  What is happening that makes this live experience more than just hearing the music live?  Where are the mistakes that sometimes become the most beautiful aspect of what is there (the beautiful mistake is a concept long known in live non EM music, but seems more lacking in EM, by and large).  Where is the need to breathe (analogy reference to EM music compared to say, a vocalist), cough, voice crack, etc.  The organic randomness that a lot of EM fails to find.  The humanity?

-nn
happyhumans.org

[bubbles]

>>except maybe aspects of punk, because of
>>the fact that the music tends to be secondary to the social context.

>>>Why that delineation? I find punks who only listen to punk music do so

because they go out to scenes for the social context...

My apologies for the inappropriate use of the coma. I agree with what
your saying and was trying to say that punk was more like EM in that very
sense. You're there for scene, music less so.

There are some very interesting ideas floating around here. I'm going to
wait to hear more people chime in before continuing to analyze my
position. In the mean time if anyone want to have a beer and talk EM I
would be glad to!

Peace,
bubbles
www.bubblesmusic.net

PS. One thing that does kind of bug me I feel that some may think that I
only listen to DJ music and 4 on the floor type stuff. Actually quite the
opposite. Much of what I listen to is straight ahead Jazz, Latin Jazz,
Funk/Rn'B/Soul, classical and 80's. And as far as EM you'ld be hard
pressed to find candy in there, though some guilty pleasers might exist.
You will find Aphex, Autechre, The Orb, Nobukazu Takemura, Amon Tobin,
Stereolab, and on and on.

[Daniel Thompson]

Wow strong discussion. ;) lol  I'm starting to feel that humanity and mistake part in my music. Now that I have a keyboard to use to play part of my synths on my own while the others play from a track makes for lots of error. Well since I am still learning to play parts myself. It is fun but a bit disappointing, because I don't have it down yet.

From what I have been reading between you guys here is that I must be a completely different type of electronic musician than what you guys are. I really only listen to more popular styles of music. Some EM some not. I really don't even recognize any of the bands you mention. Doubt I've heard any of their music either. Okay well I do know Bjork. ;) But yea, I guess my stuff falls more into the Pop realm more so than what you guys are talking about. Almost makes me question if I am in the right place, but I'm ignoring that feeling. LOL

[bubbles]

>Almost makes me question if I am in the right place, but I'm ignoring
> that feeling.

You are in the right place! Without many voices then this discussion
becomes closer to an argument. No one needs an argument. We all need to
learn. Thanks for your input.

Peace,
bubbles
www.bubblesmusic.net

[Daniel Thompson]

Heh you're welcome. ;) Anytime. :-D

[Nevyn Nowhere]

re: "the right place".

That is what is being defined in this day and age... and also why, where I understand bubbles is right on in talking about the scene he plays in... EM means a lot more than that.  EM is, in this day and age, not defined in any one way or the other.  There are the nwtekno.org things that are way more ravey based (or at least drum based, if you want to go that way), loop/layer based et al... but then there are the folks getting into EM more recently who are more doing pop structured/at least SONG structured (vs layer) getting into it in the last few years.

ie, the line is grey.

This mailing list is about catching folks who like electronic music, and finding the common ground.  To me.  Doubtless each individual involved in the list will help it to evolve to what it will be (as it always works, listwise or real life wise). 

Myself, I'm a duality, which is why I want to see more connection between these two (very different) approaches to EM music, and all genres/sub that lie between.

There is no wrong place when you are now.

-nn
happyhumans.org

[Nevyn Nowhere]

And one thing is... those names Daniel has been seeing... check them out!  I'm on many nation/worldwide mailing lists, and I have learned of all the new music that strikes me this way.  Because if you care for other than mass produced, you hear from others.

So, daniel... maybe hear the commonality we all have, and how you don't know these bands/artists... and check out something new?

Point of curiosity... what are the seminal bands/artists in your mind, that influence what you do, EM or otherwise?

-nn
happyhumans.org

On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 3:05 PM, bubbles <bub...@bubblesmusic.net> wrote:

[Daniel Thompson]

Well my range of artists is large but I will keep it to the few that I love the most. Well also the ones that influence me the most.

My favorite artist of all time is Utada Hikaru. She is a Japanese Artist who is probably one of the biggest Japan has. She went from an RnB style to now more of a ethereal new wave kind of sound. She's fantastic and I love everything she makes.

Another artist I enjoy and one that influences how I do things is Imogen Heap. Seen her live? She is amazing live. It's kind of the direction I want to go in how I perform live. She is fantastic as well.

Others I enjoy a lot are Bjork, Boa, Ayumi Hamasaki, Britney Spears, Akino Arai, Bana, etc. There are many more but those are just a handful of the current major ones. :) That is the perspective I am coming from. ;)

-Daniel Quasar

[bubbles]

> I'd be interested in hearing your take on not just EM experience vs "other
> types",

I have been thinking about this aspect of EM for sometime now. In my
experience going to many shows of all kinds there seems to be
something different about an EM show. Instantly, apart from maybe
Bjork and limited others, EM lacks a sort of Idol worship that happens
in Rock, Pop, Country, and (said with stadium Reverb) “a big shout out
to Hip-hop, RIP Biggy”.) Therefore, and I agree with you here, that
EM shows tend to focus on the Sonic aspect of the show environment
than that of other genres. But, then I instantly think of Jazz and
orchestral music. .

> When was the last time you were into music that wasn't EM? So as to develop
> a point of understanding where you're coming from...

Ummm, all the time. I like techno, and trance, and hard trance, and
Drum and Bass, and Cyber drum and bass, and jungle and 2 step (sorry
bad joke).
Actually I listen to a large variety of music. Classical and jazz/
blues are very important to me. I am writing a concerto for my
daughter (using a virtual midi orchestra to work out the
arrangement!).
My first stadium concert was Aerosmith with Skid Row and Wasp. The
last rock concert I went to was Mastodon (ok, I know they’re metal) a
couple months back.
I have fronted or been in a SoCAl Punk band, Ska band, rock band,
noise band, hip-hop group, sound collage EM band. I currently have
DJ’ed all types of music for 10 years, produced EM and Hip-hop for 8
years, and front a New Style Hip-hop group.
That’s the short list…

> Now define song and structure. ;)

Now that is a whole other can of worms. So perhaps we should make
this a new thread. Let people start with fresh ideas.

Peace,
bubbles

[bubbles]

>Britney Spears

I got to give it up to the Britney for her hit a couple years back
called "I'm a Slave 4U" for the use of quarter tones.

-bubbles

On Nov 10, 11:22 pm, "Daniel Thompson" <daniel.qua...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Well my range of artists is large but I will keep it to the few that I love
> the most. Well also the ones that influence me the most.
>
> My favorite artist of all time is Utada Hikaru. She is a Japanese Artist who
> is probably one of the biggest Japan has. She went from an RnB style to now
> more of a ethereal new wave kind of sound. She's fantastic and I love
> everything she makes.
>
> Another artist I enjoy and one that influences how I do things is Imogen
> Heap. Seen her live? She is amazing live. It's kind of the direction I want
> to go in how I perform live. She is fantastic as well.
>
> Others I enjoy a lot are Bjork, Boa, Ayumi Hamasaki, Britney Spears, Akino
> Arai, Bana, etc. There are many more but those are just a handful of the
> current major ones. :) That is the perspective I am coming from. ;)
>
> -Daniel Quasar
>

> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 7:29 PM, Nevyn Nowhere <nevynnowh...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>
>
> > And one thing is... those names Daniel has been seeing... check them out!
> > I'm on many nation/worldwide mailing lists, and I have learned of all the
> > new music that strikes me this way.  Because if you care for other than mass
> > produced, you hear from others.
>
> > So, daniel... maybe hear the commonality we all have, and how you don't
> > know these bands/artists... and check out something new?
>
> > Point of curiosity... what are the seminal bands/artists in your mind, that
> > influence what you do, EM or otherwise?
>
> > -nn
> > happyhumans.org
>

> >> > On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 10:19 PM, bubbles <bubb...@bubblesmusic.net>

> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Chris Govella]

This is a really really great thread with some really great points,
and I think some of the discussion points that have come out should
become their own threads because I would love to discuss them! But to
contribute my $0.02 to the discussion....

1) Does making music in a live atmosphere make your music more
relevant?
I argue yes...because certainly music is about what you are putting
out
first and foremost. It's a recognition of your soul/talent/expression/
what
you want to call it. But ultimately, when you see how/what/why
affects
other folks... you can not only ride in your perspective, but in those
of
others. When you play out, you get response. When you play from you
bedroom, via recorded, you only hear yourself. What is your argument,
and
why?

I think here we are comparing two different situations where music is
being played: (1) a musician playing in front of an audience and (2) a
musician recording their CD in their room, and then later another
person coming along and listening to that music from their CD player,
yes? How do these methods differ, when communicating music from an
artist's inspiration, to an observer's head/heart? And to what ends
are they an effective means?

On Nov 7, 1:07 am, "Nevyn Nowhere" <nevynnowh...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Dual question here, let's go one way with the subject, and another with the
> body.
>
> 1) Does making music in a live atmosphere make your music more relevant?
>
> I argue yes...because certainly music is about what you are putting out
> first and foremost.  It's a recognition of your soul/talent/expression/what
> you want to call it.  But ultimately, when you see how/what/why affects
> other folks... you can not only ride in your perspective, but in those of
> others.  When you play out, you get response. When you play from you
> bedroom, via recorded, you only hear yourself.  What is your argument, and
> why?
>
> 2) You make electronic music.  So, do you do it hardware or software, or
> both?  If you use software, are you a mac man or windows man... and why?
> What software is your flavor?  And yes, why?
>

> Nevyn Nowherehttp://www.happyhumans.org