I think the only thing Barbie did that could have been a little better
was to give her definition of "deadbeat dad" to make things a little
clearer. If I understand correctly by her terms I could have been
considered one after I left my first wife. In other (most?) people's
definition of the term, I have never been one, ensuring my support was
and is always paid.
Dawn seems to be getting flamed for being correct. That doesn't make
sense. If I made a serious pass at Michelle, and Harry cracked me over
the head with a pool cue, you guys would be cheering and buying Harry
whiskey until he passed out. Frankly, I admire Dawn and Michelle (and
anyone else) who haven't tried to shoot the bird. I (like this is a
shocker) would have been doing everything in my power to expose someone
blantently trying (maybe succeeding?) to move into my "territory",
including newsgroup flamage. I wouldn't resort to physical violence,
with my luck, I'd get sued and lose...
Territory: I am in an established relationship, and still participating
in the group.
It's not considered such if a breakup occurs (although the grey area is
when the breakup is caused (directly or indirectly) by another)...
(Wondering who hasn't killfiled me yet) <---- fishing
Huh, you say something? :)
> ... would have been doing everything in my power to expose someone
> blantently trying (maybe succeeding?) to move into my "territory" ...
Back in April, Dawn requested everyone kill this subject. And, here it is
again, brought up once more by her herself. I just knew it would be.
I had nothing to do with her breakup. You people should be sure of your facts
before passing judgment and spreading rumors. I think it's pretty insecure of
her to try to blame a failed relationship on someone else other than herself!
Being someone's friend does not automatically make them competition for their
friend's partner (except in Dawn's insecure eyes).
As for your accusations that I made up lies about members of the group, I'm
*still* waiting to learn what those lies are. No one seems to know, not even my
accusers. At least no one's telling me what they are. Could all this be some
vindictive attack to try to soothe your own insecure, ailing ego, Dawn?
As for my "trailing after" a list of men in the group, that list arrived in my
e-mail just this evening by the way! Along with my being pretty surprised, I
was also quite amused at some of the names which appear on it. One person I had
never even *MET*. This sure shows me that my accusers don't have their facts
straight. If you're going to accuse someone of something this nasty, especially
publicly, make sure you have your facts right. Tell me, do these men even know
there on this list? I bet most of them would be quite surprised their names are
being used too!!
As for why your private e-mail requests to me didn't solve your problem, Dawn...
I can not solve *your* problems for you. I was not interfering with your
relationship. You'll have to take credit for its demise yourself. I will not
accept that cop-out. It just must have been your mild, even temperament and
pleasant, cheerful personality.
Let's hear a little of the pleasant-to-be-around, ray of sunshine javagirl ...
On June 10, Dawn wrote:
> ... "if Madeline starts up again with that Lord this and Prince that
> and "you're my brothers" and "let's do events!! ...
Well, Dawn, the guy who calls *himself* "Prince" in this group, at one time,
told me I'd be his sister. What's it to you? Are we all supposed to bow to
"Let's do events"? I have received many requests in the past to host events
(just none from you, is all -- big deal!) And I've also received many
compliments on the events I've hosted. I notice there haven't been many events
since I stopped hosting. Have *you* hosted anything lately?
Jim Branch wrote:
> It's not considered such if a breakup occurs (although the grey area is
> when the breakup is caused (directly or indirectly) by another)...
In whose eyes?
Now, is it a *real* grey area, a *real* breakup, if one of the people in the
breakup *imagines* someone else is involved? Tells herself that? Whines about
it trying to get support from her peer group to soothe her wounded self and
pride? When is a breakup a breakup? And, for that matter, when are we free to
just be someone's friend without being accused of these things and being
If I stopped coming to the group events, if I ran away to hide my face, that
would be admitting I am guilty of these accusations. I am not, and I won't
become a victim. I will continue to attend any event I chose (Harry, take
notice! If my time in Coventry has come, it is not entirely of my *own* doing,
sir! It takes TWO. I was not alone in it, so don't try to make it appear as
such.) Anyone is welcome to ignore me or speak with me, whichever you chose. I
also have that right. Harry, I don't want to be pounced on by your again!!
>It seems like the major threads now are a big bashfest.
>I think the only thing Barbie did that could have been a little better
>was to give her definition of "deadbeat dad" to make things a little
>clearer. If I understand correctly by her terms I could have been
>considered one after I left my first wife. In other (most?) people's
>definition of the term, I have never been one, ensuring my support was
>and is always paid.
>Dawn seems to be getting flamed for being correct. That doesn't make
>sense. If I made a serious pass at Michelle, and Harry cracked me over
>the head with a pool cue, you guys would be cheering and buying Harry
>whiskey until he passed out. Frankly, I admire Dawn and Michelle (and
>anyone else) who haven't tried to shoot the bird. I (like this is a
>shocker) would have been doing everything in my power to expose someone
>blantently trying (maybe succeeding?) to move into my "territory",
>including newsgroup flamage. I wouldn't resort to physical violence,
>with my luck, I'd get sued and lose...
Yes, Dawn is being flamed for being correct. I wrote a poema couple
of years ago about a bird. Ready? Don't run!!
The trust that built thought years of faithful love
Lie shattered now upon the kitchen floor.
An eider duck fell from the sky above
As my love proved his reason worked no more
The broken bird lies by his door
It's shattered wings without the strength to fly.
Now maybe we should let the damned thing DIE.
-by Heather :)
I wrote it aftera woman tried to steal my love away from me. It never
fails to amaze me that people don't respect other's relationships. If
you have a love how would you feel when someone made a move for them?
And knowing how shitty that would feel how could someone go do that to
another? In my book this is about the biggest crime someone can
commit. I was angry with Adrian in regards to the above problem. But
I was ENRAGED at the woman. Enraged, nauseated, repulsed, horrified.
I wanted to tear her little fingers off and shove them down her pretty
little throat. I called her house and hung up on her for ages until I
was finished being angry--I was beyond words--I just wanted her to
know that I was *still* hurting!!
>Territory: I am in an established relationship, and still participating
>in the group.
I mised the meaning of that one. I may be dense ;).
>It's not considered such if a breakup occurs (although the grey area is
>when the breakup is caused (directly or indirectly) by another)...
>(Wondering who hasn't killfiled me yet) <---- fishing
>I had nothing to do with her breakup.
I never said you did. The fact that Jim intimated that is unfortunate.
No, you had nothing to do with my breakup.
>You people should be sure of your facts
>before passing judgment and spreading rumors. I think it's pretty insecure of
>her to try to blame a failed relationship on someone else other than herself!
>Being someone's friend does not automatically make them competition for their
>friend's partner (except in Dawn's insecure eyes).
Madeline, I am not blaming my failed relationship on you and you were
never my friend. You were someone I knew socially. There is a *huge*
>As for why your private e-mail requests to me didn't solve your problem, Dawn...
>I can not solve *your* problems for you. I was not interfering with your
Okay - one last time and then I'll save everyone the misery.
You came on to my boyfriend, whom you knew full well to be involved,
via Email. I told you it was inappropriate and unappreciated and flat
out said to knock it off. You said you were sorry, you didn't mean
anything by it and that you would stop. You did not.
When he and I were having troubles and bad communication problems many
months ago you took advantage of his need to confide in someone and
told him, via Email, that he should not believe what I had to say,
that he should not trust me and you encouraged him to believe that the
only reason I found your behavior towards him inappropriate was
because I was jealous of you. All the while flirting with him and
flattering his ego.
Not long after that you kissed him, apparently quite passionately, at
a party you both attended while I was out of town.
Now tell everyone again that you did not interfere in my relationship.
It's not my place to share here the stories that other women have told
me about your behavior with their SOs. But there have been several. It
is also not appropriate for me to share details of your more recent
private behavior - because it did, indeed, have nothing to do with my
breakup. You are still, however, oblivious to the boundaries and
proprieties of other people's relationships and have no respect for
other people. None whatsoever.
>If I stopped coming to the group events, if I ran away to hide my face, that
>would be admitting I am guilty of these accusations. I am not, and I won't
>become a victim. I will continue to attend any event I chose (Harry, take
>notice! If my time in Coventry has come, it is not entirely of my *own* doing,
>sir! It takes TWO. I was not alone in it, so don't try to make it appear as
>such.) Anyone is welcome to ignore me or speak with me, whichever you chose. I
>also have that right. Harry, I don't want to be pounced on by your again!!
I apologize for sticking my nose in this since all I really want is
for all this to dissapear. I want her to shut up. I'm tired of her
manipulations, I'm tired of her lies and more than a little angry that
she has lied to me personally. This woman has no class, no taste, and
no understanding what it means to be a friend...or even a human being.
Is there any way I could talk people into kill filing her. I am
personally going to figure out hoe to do it TODAY!!
She is the most loathsome creature I've ever met. Anyone pathetic
enough to still want to come to events where she is not wanted just
grosses me out. Kilfile her....in droves. If she shows up to
anything...I say we turn it into a private party at once and move to
Hows that for bitchy. I *really* can't stand this woman. And I
really hate it when she talks about Harry. I love Harry to pieces and
don't even feel she has a right to type his name. She has treated him
badly and done everything on the books that you shouldn't do to
another human being. I want her stop typing his name before I start
acting like a true Oklahoman. Fuck off Mad. Harry is a brother and
you are a fucker, a loser, a pathetic worm.
Michelle and Harry have been my friends for a few years now and they
feel like family. Get out of my family. Get a spine, learn how to
treat people, and leave me alone!!! By that I mean leave Harry alone,
leave Dawn alone, Leave Michelle alone, Leave Jeff alone, Leave me
alone AND GET THE FRIG OUT OF DODGE!!
Okay, sorry about all that folks. I can't even tell you how much I
despise this woman. I think she's SATAN.
I'm going to kilfile her right now....you won't here from me again on
the subject. *that* I promise. Hope I didn't offend anyone but
I'd like to end this post on five words
"Satan, get thee behind me!!"
(did it work?)
Nice of you to use my defense of Dawn as a personal forum to attack her.
The more you rant and rave about being innocent, the more guilty you
Just my $0.02
> Hows that for bitchy. ...
> ...Fuck off Mad. ..
How's that for childish?
> "Satan, get thee behind me!!"
> (did it work?)
Gee, I don't know since I'm not Satan. We'll just have to wait and see if this
*subject* dies in the group. If it doesn't, I won't. I am being accused of
some pretty nasty things which I did NOT do. I will not stop denying them.
Because *two* people share a kiss, does not mean either of those people are
automatically screwing half the group. Isn't that going overboard? Calm down.
Think about it. So, you don't believe me anymore because I omitted telling you
of the more personal parts of my story. I just met you; didn't really know you
at all. Ask the other parties involved, that long list of unsuspecting men I am
supposed to have taken advantage of -- or will you and your little band just
continue to believe what you *want to* instead of looking into the truth.
Think about it. It's an awful lot easier to prove what was done rather than
what was NOT done. How am *I* supposed to prove what I did NOT do? Either you
take my word or you don't. That simple. I can't dictate what people *want* to
believe. I know the truth. Those *directly* involved (you weren't) know the
REAL truth. That's good enough for me. Wanna let it drop now? All this ended
in 1997. You weren't even around then to witness any of it *in person*. It is
now July of 1998. Let it die.
Oh, hell. It's not appropriate for me, either. But I'm on my period and
it's a full moon, and I've alienated everyone in the group anyway, so I'll
share. (Thank you.)
Madeline, you have made goo-goo eyes at and trailed after every man in
this group, whether they know it or not. Some men are pretty oblivious to
that kind of thing, but women can spot it without much trouble.
You've gone after Harry, Jeff, Randal, Brock, Scott, Andrew, Talos, Paul,
Brian, Tim, Tim, Steve, Steve, Steve, Alvin, Simon, Theodore, Fred,
Barney, Mole, Ratty, Flipper, Lassie, Freeman Dyson, Rudy Rucker, Holden
Caufield, Johnny Quest, Larry Flint, Benjamin Franklin, Zaphod Beeblebrox,
Mr. Potato Head, the Smothers Brothers, the Thompson Twins, the man on the
flying trapeze, and the one-eyed one-horned flying purple people eater.
The only reason you're pissed at me and Dawn is because we had the good
sense to brush you off and tell you we weren't interested. We haven't
wanted to say anything because we didn't want Harry and Jeff to feel like
second fiddle, but I guess there's no point in keeping the secret any
And if you think the above claims are wild, you just don't know Madeline.
Harry CAME ON TO YOU????? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! Harry pursued you??????
Harry explores the tonsils of women when my back is turned? Harry didn't
tell you he was married, snuck out to see you, led you on, felt you up,
and kept you on a string?????
My list looks like a notarized pleading compared to some of your stories.
> You've gone after Harry, Jeff, Randal, Brock, Scott, Andrew, Talos, Paul,
> Brian, Tim, Tim, Steve, Steve, Steve, Alvin, Simon, Theodore, Fred,
> Barney, Mole, Ratty, Flipper, Lassie, Freeman Dyson, Rudy Rucker, Holden
> Caufield, Johnny Quest, Larry Flint, Benjamin Franklin, Zaphod Beeblebrox,
> Mr. Potato Head, the Smothers Brothers, the Thompson Twins, the man on the
> flying trapeze, and the one-eyed one-horned flying purple people eater.
Sorry, Michelle, Barney is definitely not my style. But now, that man on the
flying trapeze!!! Wow!! What a set of legs on that guy!! :P
Come on now, surely you can find more fun guys than that!
How about ... Mel Gibson. Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!!! Sam Elliott, yummy!!
Oh, let's see, who else? I just can't think of them all.
My, my!! So many men! So little time!!
> ... we didn't want Harry and Jeff to feel like second fiddle ...
I do believe the men can take care of themselves.
> And if you think the above claims are wild, you just don't know Madeline.
> Harry CAME ON TO YOU????? Harry pursued you??????
> Harry explores the tonsils of women when my back is turned?
I doubt I am the only person in this group who has witnessed it.
Although I may be the only one who said anything about it.
> Harry didn't tell you he was married ...
Not until the night of the Chieftains concert.
> ... snuck out to see you ...
Definitely *NOT*!!! I **never** said that either!!
He and I have *NEVER* seen each other outside of the group events.
Hey, I've already said I was naive and gullible, but I won't accuse
him of things he hasn't done. (Unlike you two are doing to me.)
Harry was pretty honorable until he started accusing me of "trailing"
around the above men. With that, he lost my respect!! He knew me
better than that!
> ... led you on, felt you up, and kept you on a string?????
> My list looks like a notarized pleading compared to some of your stories.
Really? Believe what you will.
To me it looks like a pretty funny fairytale.
Any of you guys in the list above wish to come forward (here *or* in e-mail) and
refresh my memory? If I'm having this much fun, I'd sure like to recall it.
>On Sat, 11 Jul 1998, Dawn O' The Dead wrote:
>> is also not appropriate for me to share details of your more recent
>> private behavior - because it did, indeed, have nothing to do with my
>Oh, hell. It's not appropriate for me, either. But I'm on my period and
>it's a full moon, and I've alienated everyone in the group anyway, so I'll
>share. (Thank you.)
Well. Since everyone is sharing...I guess I should too. by now
people are wondering why I'm so hostile towards Madeline. I mean what
problems could anyone have with a woman with a silly putty face?
There was Ahab. I met him in physical therapy....he had had one hell
of a run in with a fish. We fell in love and he had even offered to
adopt my son, Quequeg. He was great...he had a warm laugh, loved Ben
and Jerry's and could do things with that peg leg no one could
He had one problem: he walked in his sleep. One evening I woke to
find him pacing the room quoting repeatedly "by the pricling of my
thumbs something wicked this way comes!!" Ligtening struck and
Madeline was at the door. She had a stupid grin on her face and a
blue smoking bottle in her left hand. I could swear I saw demons
swirling under her skin as she called to my
sweetheart....."Ahab.....Ahab......" He left in stupor droning on and
on about free peaches. I was struck dumb by the sheer horror of her
prescence. Evil. Pure evil.
From outside I heard a scream "THE WHITE WHALE!! THE WHITE WHALE!!!"
and there was Madeline's naked night bleached body lying in the
moonlight. Free peaches drove my lover insane. All he could talk
about was the death of the great white whale and he has gone off to
sea taking my precious Quequeg with him.
I fear for his life. His need to see her harpooned may be the end of
I am ashamed to write my real name.
call me Ishmeal.
On Sat, 11 Jul 1998 20:13:06 -0700, M Howard
>On Sat, 11 Jul 1998, Dawn O' The Dead wrote:
>> is also not appropriate for me to share details of your more recent
>> private behavior - because it did, indeed, have nothing to do with my
>Oh, hell. It's not appropriate for me, either. But I'm on my period and
>it's a full moon, and I've alienated everyone in the group anyway, so I'll
>share. (Thank you.)
Well, you haven't alienated me. You're really gonna have to work
harder on that. In the mean time, I'll reply and I won't even mention
hormones and such, I'll go for straight Spockian logic and see how far
Hang in there folks - I'll do my best to make this interesting.
("Mommy, look! That man's shoving his head up his ass! He's funny!")
>Madeline, you have made goo-goo eyes at and trailed after every man in
>this group, whether they know it or not. Some men are pretty oblivious to
>that kind of thing, but women can spot it without much trouble.
No offense, but that's not gonna play with the guys here - WE LIKE IT!
Now that I've stated the obvious, let me try something not so obvious
- this is a singles group! Single women are permitted here to chase
after single men. In fact, over the 3 years I've been here, we've had
precisely that discussion several times and you are one of the most
vehement defenders of women's rights to do exactly that.
But wait! Chasing should only be after single men, right? Right. Read
>You've gone after Harry, Jeff, Randal, Brock, Scott, Andrew, Talos, Paul,
>Brian, Tim, Tim, Steve, Steve, Steve, Alvin, Simon, Theodore, Fred,
>Barney, Mole, Ratty, Flipper, Lassie, Freeman Dyson, Rudy Rucker, Holden
>Caufield, Johnny Quest, Larry Flint, Benjamin Franklin, Zaphod Beeblebrox,
>Mr. Potato Head, the Smothers Brothers, the Thompson Twins, the man on the
>flying trapeze, and the one-eyed one-horned flying purple people eater.
Freeman Dyson??!?!?!?! Lassie I'd buy, but Freeman Dyson?!?!
But, really, it doesn't matter. We're a singles group. We don't
exclude the married or the committed, that's true. And few of us would
actually say "I'm here to meet a potential SO". In fact, we _don't_
say that. We're here looking for friends and largely succeeding, one
of the reasons we enjoy this "place" is that it ain't a meat market.
But for all of the singles - no, sorry, I'll just speak for myself
from back in the time that I was single - out of the friends that I
meet here, it wouldn't bother me at all if one of them turned out to
be the relationship of my dreams. Hell, it _did_ turn out that way for
me, at least for a long while. Many (most?) of us have secret dreams,
and if they come true here that's just fine. If they come true
somewhere else, that's also fine with us - it's the dream that counts.
Going after someone here isn't a crime. I did it. Even though it was
before my time, I feel pretty safe saying you and Harry did it. Susan
and Chiwito did it. Let's face it, most of us would like to meet that
"special someone" (oh, yak, I can't believe I just wrote that!) and if
it happens here, that'll be just fine with just about any of us. It's
not a crime.
>And if you think the above claims are wild, you just don't know Madeline.
>Harry CAME ON TO YOU????? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! Harry pursued you??????
>Harry explores the tonsils of women when my back is turned? Harry didn't
>tell you he was married, snuck out to see you, led you on, felt you up,
>and kept you on a string?????
For all that we're brothers, I have no idea what you're talking about
with Harry & Madeline. I'm completely clueless as to what went on. (I
do know I don't even wanna think about Harry's tonsils!) For all I
know, it's unforgivable. Fine. I have no intention of asking you, or
anyone else, to forgive anyone. That's a complete waste of time.
But she has apologized for whatever it is she did, several times in
public and (presumably) a few times privately. Isn't that enough? It
certainly seems that she wronged you, she's even said it herself. And
she apologized. What more is required? Self immolation?
It seems to me like time to forgive and forget.
Of course, I don't believe in that pious bullshit any more than you
do, so howzabout we just all shut up about it and move on with our
Dawn has already said here that Madeline didn't have anything to do
with Dawn & I breaking up. That's true, Dawn & I did that all by
ourselves. Although I own easily 50% plus of the reasons for our
breakup, Madeline owns 0%. So howzabout we all just drop that subject
too while we're at it, since neither Dawn nor I think it was a
There was a recent ass-kicking I was subject to, when I was running a
contest to see when Jim would come back. You shamed me then, Michelle,
I let the meanest and smallest part of me get control - and you called
me on it. You tagged me good, and you were right - it was so far
beneath me that on most days I can't even see that low. I'm not saying
this is the same as that, but maybe there are corollaries?
Sigh. And speaking of corollaries -
Jim, I apologize. You pissed me off, and I went off rather than
thinking about, rather than empathizing and trying to see your side of
it. I was wrong, and I'm sorry. I'll try not to be such an asshole in
Zoltan Who Has No Spiffy Tag Line This Time
Thanks. This means a lot to me. Granted, my behaviour has not been the
most impeccable both in and out of the group. Maybe in time I can make
my way off the killfile lists.
It's funny, when you think you have justification for inappropriate
behaviour, those correcting you (even as friends) seem to be out to get
Looking back on it, the contest was rather funny, and for a while I was
wondering who to purposely give the drink to. I did the old "I'm taking
my toys (PC in this case) and playing somewhere else" departure, and
quite frankly (or earnestly) deserved some razzing over it.
> Zoltan Who Has No Spiffy Tag Line This Time
But what would *you* to with a spiffy tag lione if you had one?
>[posted & emailed]
>On Sat, 11 Jul 1998 20:13:06 -0700, M Howard
>Going after someone here isn't a crime. I did it. Even though it was
>before my time, I feel pretty safe saying you and Harry did it. Susan
>and Chiwito did it. Let's face it, most of us would like to meet that
>"special someone" (oh, yak, I can't believe I just wrote that!) and if
>it happens here, that'll be just fine with just about any of us. It's
>not a crime.
Hi Zoltan! :)
Okay love...I just have to say this, put your guns away. Going after
someone is no crime. Going after someone that is taken is....although
not literally. The women that go after Adrian hurt me. They may not
know it, Adrian may not know it. But if they know we are together and
they still go after him it means several things to me 1) they don't
respect our relationship-which means the world to me.
2) That they somehow think they *can* take him away. and (3) they are
doing things in his prescence that it is my exclusive right to
do--they are stealing something precious from me just by standing in
It is a triangle. I am the unwilling partner.
The kicker is that, since I'm dissabled, these women *do* attract him
sometimes. This I can understand. I don't want to....but I
understand. They walk well, they have necks that move, and two arms
to wrap around him, and their back hasn't been carved into a new
creation by a curvy spine (it's not that bad). They unknowingly throw
all my faults in my face when they flirt with my guy. And I'm sure it
is the same with others.....we all have our scars. If he touches one
of them....as he did a few years ago it absolutely crushes me.
You may say....shouldn't I be just as mad at him? Maybe I *should*.
However, reality strikes. While he slept on the floor for weeks, I
was more angry with the woman. If she would have respected my
relationship none of it would have happened. It's so easy to turn
someone's head before they know *your* scars. And as for the
rest...well I hate to admit it but I've always been of the opinion
that at a certain point of attraction men's dicks really do do their
thinking for them. They think "peaches, yum" and forget about the
cream at home.
I can see my logic here is incredibly flawed. However, it is more a
feeling than an argument and the first time I tried to put it in
It is wrong WRONG WRONG WRONG!!
There are women out there that have no problem with it. I think there
may be a division amoung women into the two groups because absolutely
all of my friends are of the same opinion. People of the other
opinion have other traits that keep us from hanging out and becoming
friends. Leaches suck man.
This is a weird post.
>>[Madeline] made goo-goo eyes at and trailed after every man in
>>this group, whether they know it or not. Some men are pretty oblivious to
>>that kind of thing, but women can spot it without much trouble.
>No offense, but that's not gonna play with the guys here - WE LIKE IT!
Not so in every case Jeff.
I absolutely *do* *not* appreciate being toyed with.
<gray area warning> Sure, a woman's attention is flattering, assuming it
seems sincere. Harmless flirtation can be kinda fun, and certainly i'm
guilty of flirting, on more than one occasion, with women i had no
intention of "going after" in any meaningful way. Clearly labelled,
there's no harm in that (not an invitation to resurrect that old
thread). But that's a whole different thing than what Madeline is being
Having been named as one of the targets myself, i can certainly testify
that some men are pretty oblivious; if it happened, i sure as hell
But, speaking only for myself, i wouldn't have liked it.
>Now that I've stated the obvious, let me try something not so obvious
>- this is a singles group! Single women are permitted here to chase
>after single men.
But chasing *single* men isn't the issue here, is it? Madeline is being
accused of, among other things, close exploration of tonsils which, one
presumes, had other comittments. And of showering *unwanted* attention
on men who are not single.
>But she has apologized for whatever it is she did, several times in
>public and (presumably) a few times privately. Isn't that enough?
Not if she keeps doing it Jeff. Apologies are just empty words
unless accompanied by appropriate changes in behavior. And they sound
pretty damn hollow the second or third time around...
Again, i have no real opinion on this, having only seen the repeated
apologies, but i've heard this particular accusation made explicitly by
more than one person, on more than one occasion.
>... so howzabout we just all shut up about it and move on with our
That would be nice, but...
Jeff and Madeline, i haven't brought up these accusations to throw them
in your face. I'm not a party to this dispute, and would just as soon
keep it that way. I mention this stuff because i wanted to point out
that Jeff hasn't really addressed the issues that are actually on the
table, instead requesting that they be swept under the rug.
I don't think that'll work. There's too much resentment and ill will
already, it's already dividing the group, and will soon destroy it.
Regardless of who's right or wrong, i can't help but wonder why someone
would *want* to hang out with a group where they are obviously
unwelcome, why they would persist in forcing themselves on people who've
made it abundantly clear that their presence is *not* wanted.
Once again, i have no idea whether the accusations against Madeline are
true or not. What i *do* know is that her "defense" of herself has been
so full of spite and venom that it, in itself, is distasteful enough
that the substance of the accusations no longer matters. In the old
saying, When you find yourself in a hole, stop digging.
: Having been named as one of the targets myself, i can certainly testify
: that some men are pretty oblivious; if it happened, i sure as hell
: missed it.
Yeah...how do you think Flipper feels? He was named too. :-)
(Or is Flipper a "she"?)
: But chasing *single* men isn't the issue here, is it? Madeline is being
: accused of, among other things, close exploration of tonsils which, one
: presumes, had other comittments. And of showering *unwanted* attention
: on men who are not single.
This is not making comment on any of the parties involved here, but
genericly speaking - if someone "showers" on you "unwanted attention",
it is pretty easy to:
1) Not respond. You can be polite, but if some flirts with you and it
is "unwanted", don't flirt back.
2) Ask the person to stop if it is "unwanted". Tell the person you
are flattered but not interested because you are in a
relationship, married, physically repulsed by him/her, whatever.
3) Avoid the person if they will not stop - but most people will stop
and get the hint if you do #1 and #2.
This is not to say I think it OK to approach agressively men and women
who are obviously taken, but - that's another story.
Visit Andrew's Portland, Oregon Web Site: http://www.bizave.com
Someone came up to me with that very same appeal at the last Tillicum
gathering, in May. Bury the hatchet, Michelle. Mad is truly sorry and
wants to be your friend. Time to forgive and forget.
Immediately following this conversation, I walked back inside the Tillicum
to see Madeline reaching up to stroke my husband's face over by the pool
tables. When a bystander -- a Harry lookalike by the name of Steve -- saw
the expression on my face and whooped, "Whoa! Somebody's jealous!" she
pulled her hand back and moved away from Harry. Oh, yeah. She's really
sincere in her apologies. She's really changed her behavior.
That same day, Mad told Harry that since he had her killfiled, she had
decided that she wouldn't attend his birthday dinner because it didn't
seem appropriate. Yet one week later, she posted to the group: Say, Liam!
Is dinner still on? How about some details?
Jeff, are you really so analytically challenged, is your bullshitometer so
far out of whack, that you can't see what's wrong with this picture? And
this is TWO MONTHS ago, not the year-ago-ancient-history that Madeline
keeps insisting. Her apologies mean nothing, her promises mean nothing,
and her version of the truth means nothing. She's given me excuses from
"That wasn't your husband I touched -- it was a guy who *looked* like him"
to "It's all Harry's fault -- he came on to me."
And what I've been hearing from most people here is, "We know she's hurt
people in the past, made repeated empty promises and apologies, and will
probably continue her behavior -- and we don't see a problem with that."
Andrew suggested three levels to combat unwanted attention. 1) Lack of
response. Well, Harry unfortunately extended the same warm hand of welcome
to Madeline that he extends to everyone. Maybe even *lips* of welcome --
but I've seen Harry kiss (or *try* to kiss!) Jeff, Brock, and Talos, too.
Anybody who suggests Harry's hugs and kisses are sexually seductive is off
their rocker. Once Harry saw that Madeline was indeed off her rocker and
thought he was coming on to her, he did indeed employ Lack Of Response in
addition to 2) Ask Her to Stop (level 2). When she wouldn't stop emailing
him and sending him Web postcards, he killfiled her. Level 3, Avoidance,
was working pretty well for almost six months, where Madeline, Harry, and
I all attended the same events but gave each other a wide berth. Very
civilized and acceptable, IMNSHO. That all ended at the May Tillicum when
she once again spoke to and put her hands on my husband.
She subsequently told me that she was leaving the group so that I could
enjoy the summer without her around. Fat fucking chance.
Sorry, Jeff... no forgiving, no forgetting, but I'll shut up now so
everyone can get along with their peaceful lives of happy denial.
Any idea why Harry humped me at the pool table that same day?
You conveniently keep forgetting that.
> ... Yet one week later, she posted to the group: Say, Liam!
> Is dinner still on? How about some details?
That's right. I did. He'd told me he canceled it.
I was waiting for a cancellation notice or some details in the
newsgroup becaue a few people asked *me* for info.
If an event is canceled, that hsould be mentioned in the group.
> Anybody who suggests Harry's hugs and kisses are sexually seductive is off
> their rocker.
None so blind as those who *will not* see.
You should stick around your husband more often.
> ... May Tillicum when she once again spoke to and put her hands
> on my husband.
And he did more than that to *me* that day. It was witnessed!!
>M Howard wrote:
>>... She's really changed her behavior.
>Any idea why Harry humped me at the pool table that same day?
>You conveniently keep forgetting that.
Okay people. All of you who have *ever* defended this woman. How can
you fail to see the lack of everything good and wholesome in the above
statement?! EVEN IF it did happen...the mere fact that she thinks it
should be posted under ANY circumstances demonstrates what a
slithering glob of purple jelly she really is!!
You continue to amaze me Mad with the depths you will go to discover
new, unexplored realms of patheticness!!
Can you realize...do you have the sheer intelligence it takes to
comprehend that every time you open your mouth you condemn yourself
Confess. How many shock treatments have they given you at the clinic?
That would clear up just about everything.
She'd fried her brain....the circuits just don't connect....elevator
has plunged straight to hell....if dumb were dirt she'd cover
Texas.....maybe even Oklahama....but don't pollute my hometown with
the dregs of that wastoid.
> nitebird wrote:
> >Any idea why Harry humped me at the pool table that same day?
> >You conveniently keep forgetting that.
> ... How can
> you fail to see the lack of everything good and wholesome in the above
> statement?! EVEN IF it did happen...
It was the *ACTION* which was not good and wholesome, especially in light that
he says he *wants* to be far away from me. Not the fact that I've mentioned
it. You were NOT there to witness it, little one. Some have already stated in
this forum that it *was* seen. Why does this FACT offend you so? It happened,
AFTER he said he wants to stay away from me. It takes TWO to stay away. He
came to the pool tables where I was.
> ... the mere fact that she thinks it
> should be posted under ANY circumstances ...
Oh, but it's fine to post the accusations against me as long as I don't defend
myself. Is that it? Sorry, it doesn't work that way. It's unthinkable in
your little mind that he would do this while saying he's trying to stay *far
away* from me. Poor child! Wake up. This is the real grown up world you're in
now. People will always find a way to do what they want to.
And, to refresh his memory!! This happened *after* I told him I wasn't coming
to his dinner because he told me (only *that day* when I asked him) that he had
kill-filed me. That was the first I heard of his kill-filing me.
You weren't there. You were not involved in all this. Your rantings sound like
that of a spoiled little child having a tantrum. Hush up until you know what
you're talking about.
How about let's hear from the man in question!! Why Harry? I want to hear it
from **YOU**, not a *third party*. Why did you do this to me if you're trying
to stay far away from me? Through all of this, since Brock's party, you
haven't looked me straight in the eyes and tried to talked about this to me.
You never told me I was kill-filed or in Coventry until I asked you to your face
in May. I think we should hear from *YOU*, and not have you hiding behind the
skirts and child. Step up, man. I'm waiting to hear **YOUR** voice in this.
>> >M Howard wrote:
>> >>... She's really changed her behavior.
>> nitebird wrote:
Ah, I wrote in response to your further stupidity but I deleted all
but this. I have no doubt you would not have been able to comprehend
the post anyway.
Madeline sellers puddin and pie
Kissed the guys and made them cry.
Cause when their wives came out to play.
Madeline Sellers had her day.
Have you ever thought about the things your actions imply? You are
very caught up in men involved in relationships. And for some reason
get great joy in embellishing and repeting tales of your evil
conquests. Who are you hurting? Yes, you hurt the guys....but your
main goal is the women. Why else would you do these things. Your
feelings towards Dawn and Michelle are clear....and it seems you
sincerely hope for them to say "Yes, Mad, you are queen, my man
desired you over me." Why this hatred towards women Mad? What IS
I had a professor once that taught us (he gave life lessons as well)
that when someone is in a relationship and someone is cheating...or
doing something inappropriate... there are three people involved. He
told us that woman sleeping with our men were not really with the
men...they were WITH us...they were trying to hurt us. I believe it.
"There are silences where there is no sound. And silences where no
sound may be."
I'm not shutting up Mad. And I have you kilfiled from email.
I have not slept with anyone's man.
You silly twit.
I'm jerking you around, and you're not even swift enough to catch on.
> I must say. That made me laugh.
I'm glad. :)
> If you expect me to believe you have the ability to catch anything
> other than a venerial desease you have another think a comin.'
Ah, grasshopper, you still have much to learn.
(never had one of those nasty things)
Hey now! Don't underate him! I got a chubby from his attempt! =)
Actually from that May Tillicum event, I remember Harry being
friendly with Jeff, myself, Madeline, Steve (once he found out
we all had herpes and/or AIDS), and a few others. Maybe I'm
one of those oblivious guys, but I saw her returning the same
actions we were all giving each other.
I've tried to stay out of this and my personal opinion is please
people, let's drop this and move on?
I just have to spell out everything for you don't I. You have the
intelligence of a cucumber. It encompassed all inappropriate
behavior. We all know you didn't sleep with anyone's man...otherwise
they would be dead or clutching their deseased (ehem) in both hands
You kiss a taken man....you are kissing his woman. And you are
hurting HER because she is an unwilling partner. The way you keep
rubbing people's noses in it leaves little doubt that your intentions
where, at least subconsciousy, aimed at hurting the women.
Do you have very many female friends Madeline?
Just a question.
(don't be goofy enough to write not sleeping with any taken men again.
That has to be about the sixth time and we've all assured you that
that is not what we are upset about. 5+2=7)
>> I just have to spell out everything for you don't I. You have the
>> intelligence of a cucumber.
>You silly twit.
>I'm jerking you around, and you're not even swift enough to catch on.
I must say. That made me laugh. If you expect me to believe you have
the ability to catch anything other than a venerial desease you have
another think a comin.' *shaking my head in disbelief*
In article <6o8ras$h...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>,
nitebird <madelin...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> HDE wrote:
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I will climb off my moral chair (don't care for horses) now and go back to
working on who gets what lunch.
Anyone know friends, family, countrymen who are in need of a house? Have
one for sale!
This is going to make a lot of people run out to be *your* friend....
I think you have enough rope madeline
I can't say that it's necessarily wrong to flirt with, and try to win the
affections of, "someone else's" partner. But there are limits. I certainly
did my best to "steal" someone from her boyfriend. But she was also fairly
willing, since she was attracted to me. As a friend of mine told me once,
it doesn't matter if she has a boyfriend unless she loves him. Then you
really shouldn't try to get in the way. But even still, the involved
object of affection should politely decline the advances, in which case
one should stop trying to get between them. Anything else is just fucking
And yes, men's libidos can get in the way of rational thought sometimes,
but the man in question should realise that it's the libido talking, and
should take steps to not do the Wrong Thing(tm). I know I'm way too loyal
to even conceive of cheating on a girl I was involved with. But maybe
that's the estrogen talking... =)
-- Sean, who thinks s/he'll leave work early to play wif hir new camera =)
"Et puis je suis alle au marche aux esclaves
et je t'ai cherchee,
mais je ne t'ai pas trouvee
mon amour." -- Jacques Prevert
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