Tuesday deadline to say NO to MORE TAXES
sinistersteve
"Vic" <heh...@stupidspammer.net> wrote in message
news:aa0ecvkbnksfihjbm...@4ax.com...
> If you haven't sent in your ballot yet, vote NO on measure 26-48.
> Otherwise you'll be seeing a NEW DEDUCTION on your paycheck
> for the next three years.
***If you think it will only be 3 years, then you're crazy.
> Right next to "Federal Tax" and "State Tax" and "FICA"
> you'll see "County Tax."
*** Actually, you won't. Most businesses will not pull the tax for you so
you will need to write a check for $200 or $300 or $500 or whatrever the
county will rob from you at the end of the year.
Baxter
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"Vic" <heh...@stupidspammer.net> wrote in message
news:aa0ecvkbnksfihjbm...@4ax.com...
>
> You're already having about a third of you income taken from you.
> There's no "please" or "thank you." It's just taken from you.
>
> If you live in Multnomah County, they want to stick you for ANOTHER
> 1.25% of your gross income.
>
> If you haven't sent in your ballot yet, vote NO on measure 26-48.
> Otherwise you'll be seeing a NEW DEDUCTION on your paycheck
> for the next three years.
>
> Right next to "Federal Tax" and "State Tax" and "FICA"
> you'll see "County Tax."
>
> While a $450 million baseball stadium goes up....
Not paid for by any funds that would be available to go to schools.
> while a $6 million ice skating rink goes up in Pioneer Square....
That' private money, not government money.
> while the city spends $54 million per year on "consultants".....
What do these consultants do? Why are they not worth what they're paid?
> while tavern owners make $250,000 per year from video poker
commissions....
Do you think those tavern owners would allow the video poker machines on
their premises without a commission?
>
> Don't submit to high pressure scare tactics.
Just kill the schools, throw old folks out of nursing homes, deny
medications for those who can't afford them, and let lose the criminals.
>
> The new tax is an EASY WAY OUT for lazy politicians.
> Make them WORK. Just say NO to more tax deductions.
You're the one who's lazy here.
Baxter
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"sinistersteve" <sinist...@nospammeattbi.com> wrote in message
news:JMExa.625946$OV.584600@rwcrnsc54...
>
> "Vic" <heh...@stupidspammer.net> wrote in message
> news:aa0ecvkbnksfihjbm...@4ax.com...
> > If you haven't sent in your ballot yet, vote NO on measure 26-48.
> > Otherwise you'll be seeing a NEW DEDUCTION on your paycheck
> > for the next three years.
>
>
> ***If you think it will only be 3 years, then you're crazy.
The only way to extend it beyond 3 years would be with another vote.
sta...@agora.rdrop.com
> --
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Free software - Baxter Codeworks www.baxcode.com
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> "Vic" <heh...@stupidspammer.net> wrote in message
> news:aa0ecvkbnksfihjbm...@4ax.com...
> >
> > You're already having about a third of you income taken from you.
> > There's no "please" or "thank you." It's just taken from you.
> >
> > If you live in Multnomah County, they want to stick you for ANOTHER
> > 1.25% of your gross income.
> >
> > If you haven't sent in your ballot yet, vote NO on measure 26-48.
> > Otherwise you'll be seeing a NEW DEDUCTION on your paycheck
> > for the next three years.
> >
> > Right next to "Federal Tax" and "State Tax" and "FICA"
> > you'll see "County Tax."
> >
> > While a $450 million baseball stadium goes up....
>
> Not paid for by any funds that would be available to go to schools.
>
> > while a $6 million ice skating rink goes up in Pioneer Square....
>
> That' private money, not government money.
>
> > while the city spends $54 million per year on "consultants".....
>
> What do these consultants do? Why are they not worth what they're paid?
Well, couple of things... They tell the city not to buy Water Billing
software, and
they the city ignored them and did, and they told the city that reserve water
wells along the river were a bad place for them, and the city put them there
anyway. And the problems with the DMV computer systems (ok, that's the
state,
but the idea is the same), the state went against the consultants for that
also.
Why pay consultants if you are going to ignore them?
--
-TTFN
-Steven
sinistersteve
same "Give me this or I'll shoot the bunny" in two years when the tax may
come up for a renewal? What if they say we need to raise it an additional
.25%? I say you don't let the county even get their foot in the door. People
spend money more wisely when there is less of it to go around than when
there is an abundance of it.
"Baxter" <lbax01.s...@baxcode.com> wrote in message
news:vcfkv1n...@corp.supernews.com...
Baxter
enough to meet necessities. It's like you saying to a poor person that if
they 'spent their money wisely' they'd be able to make that $10 buy food for
the entire month.
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"sinistersteve" <sinist...@nospammeattbi.com> wrote in message
news:q1Wxa.634021$OV.596283@rwcrnsc54...
><snip>. People
Jim McLaughlin
New PPS admin positions, not in prior budgets, at $ 100 K per pop, are not
necessities.
"Baxter" <lbax01.s...@baxcode.com> wrote in message
news:vcfksoi...@corp.supernews.com...
sinistersteve
"Baxter" <lbax01.s...@baxcode.com> wrote in message
news:vcgi8m3...@corp.supernews.com...
Dale
McLaughlin" <jimmcl...@attbi.com> wrote with the prose of a poet
laureate:
> "Outdoor School" is not a necessity.
Neither is art, music, drama, computer programming, PE. However, take a look
at your high school yearbook. See those classes (maybe not the computer
programming)? They were there for me and for your parents as well. Look at
20 yearbooks from the 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's, and 90's, they were in all
those yearbooks as well. All of those classes, outdoor school included, make
children well-rounded individuals. You want well-rounded individuals, don't
you? Oregon puts out some of the best students in the nation. Take a look at
http://www.act.org/news/data/02/states.html and you'll see that in core
subjects, Oregon students averaged in 2002 a 23.5 versus a national average
of 21.8. In SAT's, Oregon scored an average of 1052 with over 55% of all
students taking it. The national average for 2001 was 506 verbal (Oregon
526) and 514 math (Oregon 526). The ACT score in Oregon averaged a 22.6
versus a national average of 21, again ahead of the national average. This
state shouldn't wish to educate robots, but human beings. Source URL-
http://www.publicagenda.org/issues/factfiles_detail.cfm?issue_type=education
&list=8
>
> New PPS admin positions, not in prior budgets, at $ 100 K per pop, are not
> necessities.
Can't speak to those, don't know what positions in particular you're
speaking of, not to say your objection doesn't have merit.
Vic
<lbax01.s...@baxcode.com> shuddered violently and said:
>> While a $450 million baseball stadium goes up....
>
>Not paid for by any funds that would be available to go to schools.
Funds that COULD go to schools.
They want to make an initial outlay of $150 million to build a fourth
sports stadium in Portland, and make up the other $300 million through tax
on baseball players' salaries. If they want baseball so badly, it's
conceivable to put a baseball team in PGE Park, the Rose Garden or Coliseum
and use the $450 million for better things than buiding another stadium.
>> while a $6 million ice skating rink goes up in Pioneer Square....
>
>That' private money, not government money.
Private money which could be donated to schools instead of skating.
There is already an ice skating rink in Lloyd Center and the MAX ride
from Pioneer Square is free.
>> while the city spends $54 million per year on "consultants".....
>What do these consultants do? Why are they not worth what they're paid?
They investigate the feasibility of and recommend implementations of
projects like new light rail lines and covering water reservoirs. Spending
over $1 million per week on consultants seems extreme and wasteful.
>> while tavern owners make $250,000 per year from video poker
>commissions....
>
>Do you think those tavern owners would allow the video poker machines on
>their premises without a commission?
Probably, since they draw customers.
Here's an article from 1998:
http://www.wvgazette.com/static/series/video/gambling4.html
"In Oregon, 9,000 legal video poker and slot machines made $407 million
during the fiscal year ending June 30. That means each machine made $870 a
week, or $124 a day.
The state of Oregon kept $265 million of those proceeds. About 1,800 Oregon
retailers received the other $142 million, said Lou Torres, a
representative of the Oregon Lottery Commission."
Assuming video poker revenue is about the same as it was 5 years ago,
the amount of money being paid to tavern owners as commission each year is
equal to the amount Measure 26-48 would raise each year.
I think it's a more reasonable proposition to cut video poker commissions
by 50% for 6 years than to stick wage earners with a new tax for 3 years.
Video poker commissions are gravy for tavern owners. Taking a new tax
from workers will hurt a lot of them.
>> Don't submit to high pressure scare tactics.
>Just kill the schools, throw old folks out of nursing homes, deny
>medications for those who can't afford them, and let lose the criminals.
The high pressure scare tactics have worked on you! Nobody has
been able to demonstrate that these things will happen. In fact, just the
opposite. There was a large ad in the Sunday (May 18) Oregonian metro
section which presented a budget that will allow schools to operate without
any new taxes. The salaries are fat too. $100,000 to principals, $60,000 to
teachers (who don't even work a full 12 months).
>> The new tax is an EASY WAY OUT for lazy politicians.
>> Make them WORK. Just say NO to more tax deductions.
>
>You're the one who's lazy here.
I have an opinion and I'm presenting it with facts to back it up.
In what way is that lazy?
Jim McLaughlin
"Dale" blathered without any prior thought:
> Neither is art, music, drama, computer programming, PE.
Fallacy of the false symmetry.
PS>
Basic keyboarding and programming are necessities.
Neither drama, nor music nor art were a part of my high school
curriculum. It was one of the more expensive private prep schools on the
east coast when I attended in the late 50s - early 60s.
> However, take a look
> at your high school yearbook. See those classes (maybe not the computer
> programming)? They were there for me and for your parents as well. Look at
> 20 yearbooks from the 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's, and 90's, they were in all
> those yearbooks as well.
Despite your presumptions, those classes were simply not there.
So sorry to burst your bubble.
>All of those classes, outdoor school included, make
> children well-rounded individuals.
Not one of those classes at taxpayer expense has ever been shown to be
required for children to become "well rounded (is that obese?) individuals.
Never has it been demonstrated that in the absence of those classes children
cannot become "well rounded" individuals.
> You want well-rounded individuals, don't
> you?
If I knew what you meant by well rounded, I might; then again, I
might not. Other than "well rounded" as a BOMFOG fuzzy concept, can you
actually explain it?
>Oregon puts out some of the best students in the nation.
>Take a look at
> http://www.act.org/news/data/02/states.html and you'll see that in core
> subjects, Oregon students averaged in 2002 a 23.5 versus a national
average
> of 21.8. In SAT's, Oregon scored an average of 1052 with over 55% of all
> students taking it. The national average for 2001 was 506 verbal (Oregon
> 526) and 514 math (Oregon 526). The ACT score in Oregon averaged a 22.6
> versus a national average of 21, again ahead of the national average. This
> state shouldn't wish to educate robots, but human beings. Source URL-
>
http://www.publicagenda.org/issues/factfiles_detail.cfm?issue_type=education
> &list=8
>
Horse shit. Oregon puts out the third whitest students in the nation,
behind only Montana and Wyoming. Your vaunted SAT scores are a reflection
of vanilla Oregon.
The most recent frace coming out of the Ed bureaucracy in Salem about
standardized test scores and "de norming" predominately minority schools so
those schools scores don't bring down lillywhite Oregin's scores is a
graphic demonstration of the failure of the current schools system
Ever wonder why its the minority communities who on a far higher
percentage basis rush to get their kids out of public schools and into
charter or private schools everytime there is a program offered which
allows them to do so without extreme financial penalty. Thats what happens
with every school voucher program.
The Portland School system in particular has for years treated black and
hispanic kids as expendible.
Dale
6k_xa.374817$Si4.3...@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net, "Jim McLaughlin"
<jimmcl...@attbi.com> wrote without regard to facts:
>
> "Dale" blathered without any prior thought:
>
>
>> Neither is art, music, drama, computer programming, PE.
>
> Fallacy of the false symmetry.
>
> PS>
>
> Basic keyboarding and programming are necessities.
>
> Neither drama, nor music nor art were a part of my high school
> curriculum. It was one of the more expensive private prep schools on the
> east coast when I attended in the late 50s - early 60s.
>
>> However, take a look
>> at your high school yearbook. See those classes (maybe not the computer
>> programming)? They were there for me and for your parents as well. Look at
>> 20 yearbooks from the 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's, and 90's, they were in all
>> those yearbooks as well.
>
>
> Despite your presumptions, those classes were simply not there.
> So sorry to burst your bubble.
>
>
>> All of those classes, outdoor school included, make
>> children well-rounded individuals.
>
> Not one of those classes at taxpayer expense has ever been shown to be
> required for children to become "well rounded (is that obese?) individuals.
> Never has it been demonstrated that in the absence of those classes children
> cannot become "well rounded" individuals.
According to NATIONWIDE statistics, students taking arts classes score
higher in SAT tests
(http://www.nestucca.k12.or.us/graphicdesign/2002/school.html). Of course,
I'm sure that you'll see some sort of fallacy in that as well.
>
>> You want well-rounded individuals, don't
>> you?
>
>
> If I knew what you meant by well rounded, I might; then again, I
> might not. Other than "well rounded" as a BOMFOG fuzzy concept, can you
> actually explain it?
Do I really need to define "well rounded" for you? For someone who wrote
"fallacy of false symmetry", "well rounded" is a little difficult for you?
>
>> Oregon puts out some of the best students in the nation.
>
>> Take a look at
>> http://www.act.org/news/data/02/states.html and you'll see that in core
>> subjects, Oregon students averaged in 2002 a 23.5 versus a national
> average
>> of 21.8. In SAT's, Oregon scored an average of 1052 with over 55% of all
>> students taking it. The national average for 2001 was 506 verbal (Oregon
>> 526) and 514 math (Oregon 526). The ACT score in Oregon averaged a 22.6
>> versus a national average of 21, again ahead of the national average. This
>> state shouldn't wish to educate robots, but human beings. Source URL-
>>
> http://www.publicagenda.org/issues/factfiles_detail.cfm?issue_type=education
>> &list=8
>>
>
> Horse shit. Oregon puts out the third whitest students in the nation,
> behind only Montana and Wyoming. Your vaunted SAT scores are a reflection
> of vanilla Oregon.
I see. So what you're really saying is that education in Oregon is crap,
will always be crap, and you're not going to spend one cent on it. That's
really what it is.
>
> The most recent frace coming out of the Ed bureaucracy in Salem about
> standardized test scores and "de norming" predominately minority schools so
> those schools scores don't bring down lillywhite Oregin's scores is a
> graphic demonstration of the failure of the current schools system
>
> Ever wonder why its the minority communities who on a far higher
> percentage basis rush to get their kids out of public schools and into
> charter or private schools everytime there is a program offered which
> allows them to do so without extreme financial penalty. Thats what happens
> with every school voucher program.
Thing is, with your beloved charter schools, your tax money would go to them
as well, but you don't want to pay for students to go to charter schools
either.
>
> The Portland School system in particular has for years treated black and
> hispanic kids as expendible.
Bottom line is, without saying it, is that you're voting "NO" on this
measure, right? You'll vote "No" in five, ten, twenty years, never mind
about anything. You'll have your extra $200 in your pocket to spend in a
state with a crumbling infrastructure. If you think it's pro-business to
think this way, think again. We won't get quality businesses to come here if
our schools are gutted. You think Intel came to Oregon because we're cutting
days in the school year? You're short-sighted.
Baxter
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"Jim McLaughlin" <jimmcl...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:80Yxa.634638$OV.598334@rwcrnsc54...
> "Outdoor School" is not a necessity.
Yes, it is.
>
> New PPS admin positions, not in prior budgets, at $ 100 K per pop, are not
> necessities.
They are when enrollment increases - which it has.
Baxter
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"sinistersteve" <sinist...@nospammeattbi.com> wrote in message
news:ZGYxa.178355$pa5.1...@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net...
> So you're saying YES to more bureaucracy and NO to more accountability?
>
> "Baxter" <lbax01.s...@baxcode.com> wrote in message
> news:vcgi8m3...@corp.supernews.com...
> > Oh, baloney! Before you can "spend money wisely", you first must have
> > enough to meet necessities. It's like you saying to a poor person that
if
> > they 'spent their money wisely' they'd be able to make that $10 buy food
> for
> > the entire month.
> >
> >
> >
Baxter
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"Vic" <heh...@stupidspammer.net> wrote in message
news:v8mgcvobqkh60nnqo...@4ax.com...
> Awaking from a dream about violent penguins, "Baxter"
> <lbax01.s...@baxcode.com> shuddered violently and said:
>
> >> While a $450 million baseball stadium goes up....
> >
> >Not paid for by any funds that would be available to go to schools.
>
> Funds that COULD go to schools.
As in funds that YOU are spending on a car could also go to schools? Sorry,
but your argument doesn't fly. The funds for the baseball stadium will come
from the stadium itself - if the stadium is not built, those funds will not
come to the state in any form, nor for any purpose.
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
snip
>I see. So what you're really saying is that education in Oregon is crap,
>will always be crap, and you're not going to spend one cent on it. That's
>really what it is.
Yep. That plus he's one of those elite private school grads who just
doesn't buy into public education, I'm willing to bet.
Hmm. Wonder if there's a strong correlation between the flight from
public schools in the 70s and 80s and the number of adults unwilling
to contribute to society today?
snip
>Bottom line is, without saying it, is that you're voting "NO" on this
>measure, right? You'll vote "No" in five, ten, twenty years, never mind
>about anything. You'll have your extra $200 in your pocket to spend in a
>state with a crumbling infrastructure. If you think it's pro-business to
>think this way, think again. We won't get quality businesses to come here if
>our schools are gutted. You think Intel came to Oregon because we're cutting
>days in the school year? You're short-sighted.
At this point I think it's a waste of time to argue with people like
this. They *want* a stratified society with rich and poor and no
serious middle class which will result from this trashing of
government services, including public schools. Don't be fooled by the
"poor minority" rhetoric.
Dale, folks like this really don't care. They're too short-sighted
and they'll grab at any straw to justify their BS. They have little
to no regard for community involvement and don't understand the
concepts of rights meaning that you have equivalent responsibilities.
Hell, if these people really gave a shit they'd have elected some
responsible people to the Lege instead of someone who gave them the
best "no new taxes" partisan BS line.
jrw
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
wrote:
snip
>Funds that COULD go to schools.
Yeah. Right. I guess you don't comprehend the difference between the
city of Portland and Portland Public Schools, do you, fella? We're
talking about two seperate government entities, and City of Portland
is not obligated to give any money to Portland Public Schools.
snip
>>> while a $6 million ice skating rink goes up in Pioneer Square....
>>
>>That' private money, not government money.
>
>Private money which could be donated to schools instead of skating.
>There is already an ice skating rink in Lloyd Center and the MAX ride
>from Pioneer Square is free.
Oh, now *this* is a laugh.
For someone who is so concerned about money being taken from *his*
pocket to pay for schools, you're pretty damn cavalier about someone
else's money being targeted for schools.
Foot. Mouth. Insert. This is a hilarious contradiction.
snip
>They investigate the feasibility of and recommend implementations of
>projects like new light rail lines and covering water reservoirs. Spending
>over $1 million per week on consultants seems extreme and wasteful.
City stuff. Not Portland Public Schools, and has no relationship to
Portland Public Schools.
Read my lips, slowly.
The City of Portland funds have NOTHING to do with Portland Public
Schools. They are two seperate government entities. The municipality
does not run the schools. Period. City government waste and abuse
has nothing to do with this election and it has nothing to do with how
the public schools are managed and run.
jrw
Jim McLaughlin
"Dale" yet again blathered:
MAJOR SNIPS
> Do I really need to define "well rounded" for you? For someone who wrote
> "fallacy of false symmetry", "well rounded" is a little difficult for you?
Yes, you do. You used a phrase without any commonly understood or
universally accepted meaning. You used it in what is in effect a
political debate. Its not too much to ask to expect you to define thge
phrase before asking someone to slavishly agree with you as to the
desireability of achieving the phrase as a goal to be desired by all.
You delight in cheap rehtorical games. You won't discuss merits.
Sad. Typical.
MORE SNIPS
> I see. So what you're really saying is that education in Oregon is crap,
> will always be crap, and you're not going to spend one cent on it. That's
> really what it is.
> >
Actually what I am saying is that you are incapable of reading and
comprehending simple dec;larative sentences. Instead of doing so, you
presume to change my thought and intents to represent some "straw man"
which you knock down. Again, a silly failure to come to grips with the
actual issues.
As for spending "...one cent..." on education, try not to let your
rhetoric and emotion totally overpower you.
Portland specifically has the per student spending in the West.
Peeriod. Portland, specifically has been throwing more and more money
every year at its education system for the last 25 years that I've followed
the issues. The product at the end is worse than it was 25 years ago.
The costs per student have increased far far more than the rate of
inflation, AND THE STUDENT CENSUS IN PORTLAND HAS DECLINED precipitiously in
that time frame,.
More money per student, fewer students, worse results.
Sounds a little like the picture for the Acme Buggy Whip and Saddle
Company.
But again rather than address issues like failure of the public system,
you want to indulge in rhetorical flourishes.
To you, my being reluctant to pour an _additional_ 15% in income taxes
into schools equates to spending zero.
Fallicy of the false dichotomy or false alternative. Are you really so
ill educated that you don't see that?
Ahhhh.... what happenned to the first $350 million PPS is getting next
year without the tax increase/ In your view is that "nothing" Apparently
so.
What a strange world you live in where $350 million is nothing.
I suspect that you feed at the education trough. You area teacher or
an administratior like Joycie, right?
>
> Thing is, with your beloved charter schools, your tax money would go to
them
> as well, but you don't want to pay for students to go to charter schools
> either.
> >
You don't get it at all. I like paying taxes for schools. I like
schools that effectively and efficiently educate.
And after the farce of the City / County mugging of the Portland school
board in contract negotiations, where there was zero attempt to get control
of benefits and costs, I have no confidence that any of the increase will
have any classroom impact. The vast bulk of the money to be raised by the
15% income tax increase goes to teacher fringe benefits, and the Portland
School system has effectively passed into the control of the county
executive.
I don't see paying an additional 15% for more of the same.
SNIPS
> Bottom line is, without saying it, is that you're voting "NO" on this
> measure, right?
Absolutely I have already voted "NO."
> You'll vote "No" in five, ten, twenty years, never mind
> about anything.
Really? You can predict the future that well? Wow!
Hey, I'll give you the "$ 200.00" and you can invest it for the
Portland Schools Foundation and pump all the profits into the schools.
With your knowledge of the future, you will be at least as effective as
hillary Clinton in the commodities market.
> You'll have your extra $200 in your pocket to spend in a
> state with a crumbling infrastructure. If you think it's pro-business to
> think this way, think again.
Crumbling infrastructure? So what part of the Multnomah County 15 % tax
raise goes to roads and bridges? Yeah, thought so. Too much emotion, no
logic and no facts bub.
Pro business schmoe business. There isn't any meaningless PR phrase
you won't grab for, is there? How about "pro taxpayer"?
> We won't get quality businesses to come here if
> our schools are gutted.
But we can get the ones we have to leave by constantly increasing taxes.
And the net outflow of jobs from PDX and Mult County to the outer 'burbs and
to Clark county is staggering.
You of course will fix that by spending more money on "economic
development" luring baseball teams, or widget makers, from California, and
compete with other states to give away future tax revenue if they will on;ly
move their business here.
>You think Intel came to Oregon because we're cutting
> days in the school year? You're short-sighted.
> >
I know that Intel came to Oregon because the State and Washington County
and Hillsboro gave away more in tax rebates and tax breaks to Intel than any
other state was willing to do. Plain and simple.
Intel didn't come to Oregon because of the length of the elementary
school, middle school or high school academic year.
Jim McLaughlin
disagrees with you.
And I thought that folks or your educational training were totally
aghast at, opposed to and really pissed at stereotyping.
I do hope that both Dick Devlin and Greg Macpherson, for whom I
campaigned and voted, are aware that you have classified them as proponents
of a "'no ne taxes' partisan line."
The problem in Oregon Joyce, is clowns like you on the left match with
your Stalinist tactics the "Know Nothing" tactics of the Lars Larsons on the
right, resulting in no solutions, but instead only a self satisfied venting
of your spleens.
I'd send you a nickel so that you could buy a clue, but even if I did
so, you wouldn't know what to do with a clue if you had it.
Here's the clue, for free:
Its okay to question liberal orthodoxy, just as its okay to question
conservative orthodoxy. Unless those two sets of "conventional wisdom"
orthodoxies are constantly questioned and challenged -- and forced to
rigorously prove their effectiveness, we are all doomed to more of the crap
taht passes for education in Portland.
Twenty five years of throwing more dollars per student each year at the
problem has not worked. Why do you think twenty five more years of the
same will work?
Insanity has accurately been described as continual repetition of the
same behaviors while expecting different outcomes.
Education policy in Oregon, and especially in Portland, has been insane
for the past 25 years.
But I don't expect you to "get" it: you are in the education
bureaucracy, and are advocating more taxes to put more money in your
pocket, right wannabe teacher?
"Joyce Reynolds-Ward" <j...@aracnet.com> wrote in message
news:3ec8ee8d...@news.aracnet.com...
gatt
> > New PPS admin positions, not in prior budgets, at $ 100 K per pop, are
not
> > necessities.
>
> They are when enrollment increases - which it has.
So stop giving people tax breaks for injecting burdens in the public school
system.
How come nobody's mentioned that? 'Cause irresponsible parent types would
rather have everybody pay for their tax writeoffs than pay for it
themselves.
-gatt
Jim McLaughlin
What are you smokin'?
Oh, wait, its Baxter --- never mind, just another lie.
With these enrollment increases you seem to find I'd expect that PPS would
be reopening Washington; Monroe and Jackson?
Probably wouldn't be talking about closing several grade schools?
"Baxter" <lbax01.s...@baxcode.com> wrote in message
news:vchp791...@corp.supernews.com...
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
<jimmcl...@attbi.com> wrote:
> Now, there you go again.<g> Stereotyping anyone and everyone who
>disagrees with you.
Pot. Kettle. Black.
Or weren't you the one I had to complain to the ISP for posting
obscenities?
> And I thought that folks or your educational training were totally
>aghast at, opposed to and really pissed at stereotyping.
Pot. Kettle. Black. There you go.
> I do hope that both Dick Devlin and Greg Macpherson, for whom I
>campaigned and voted, are aware that you have classified them as proponents
>of a "'no ne taxes' partisan line."
You sound as if you think I should know these people, bub.
> The problem in Oregon Joyce, is clowns like you on the left match with
>your Stalinist tactics the "Know Nothing" tactics of the Lars Larsons on the
>right, resulting in no solutions, but instead only a self satisfied venting
>of your spleens.
Funny, it's okay when you engage in stereotyping but not so when you
perceive others as doing so?
> I'd send you a nickel so that you could buy a clue, but even if I did
>so, you wouldn't know what to do with a clue if you had it.
Pfft. I doubt you could find a clue, fella.
> Here's the clue, for free:
>
> Its okay to question liberal orthodoxy, just as its okay to question
>conservative orthodoxy. Unless those two sets of "conventional wisdom"
>orthodoxies are constantly questioned and challenged -- and forced to
>rigorously prove their effectiveness, we are all doomed to more of the crap
>taht passes for education in Portland.
Oh, please. Clearly you know very little about what is actually
happening in the schools in Portland. While there are problems with
specific schools--no two ways about it, but that's a criticism you can
make of any system no matter how good it is, my impression of what is
taught at many Portland schools is reasonably favorable. I see kids
studying math at levels at least two years earlier than was the norm
either for me or for friends who went through schools ten years
earlier, during the heat of Sputnik. I see decent science being
taught in spite of budget limitations.
Where I *do* see problems are issues not isolated to Portland but in
specific methodologies and curricula which are, unfortunately, the
norm these days. Composition is not as rigorously taught as it used
to be. Social studies has not improved, and may have even gone
downhill (of course, to the activist sorts, English composition is
hardly a priority while Social Studies is a major obsession). There
are fewer art and music courses, and despite the rhetoric you put
forth, there *are* studies suggesting that music, at least, is a
contributor to math performance. Art and music were also means of
communicating culture in addition to social studies and history
courses which we just plain don't have now. Even in my blue-collar
public schools as a kid we had twice-a-week music in grade school and
music classes in junior high and high school. Part of those music
classes included history, and were means of imparting knowledge about
that European cultural heritage which everyone now bemoans our kids
don't know anything about.
Gee, I wonder why? Maybe because those so-called "useless" arts and
music classes were doing more to contribute to education than most
folks thought?
Vocational ed is pathetic, except for places like Benson (and you'll
be happy to hear that your no vote will kill the vocational programs
at Benson). Home ec? Don't make me laugh.
> Twenty five years of throwing more dollars per student each year at the
>problem has not worked. Why do you think twenty five more years of the
>same will work?
Entertaining to hear that education is the one thing which shouldn't
keep up with inflation by the arguments of you and others. Or that
education is considered to be throwing money away. The attitude is a
dead giveaway...kids are a problem, they should take whatever scraps
are left over after the adults are done and if there's nothing for the
kids...well, too bad.
Of course, the same attitude also handicaps private schools as well as
public...I've stated here and elsewhere that I don't think any of
them, with the possible exception of Catlin Gabel and Oregon
Episcopal, are adequately funded.
snip
> But I don't expect you to "get" it: you are in the education
>bureaucracy, and are advocating more taxes to put more money in your
>pocket, right wannabe teacher?
Gee, funny how none of these folks "get" the concept that a teacher's
license does not exempt one from paying the same taxes.
Then again, I have a feeling that most folks would be happy to go back
to the good old days when the only people allowed to teach were
single, broke and struggling. Shows what value they place on
education.
jrw
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
<lbax01.s...@baxcode.com> wrote:
snip
>They are when enrollment increases - which it has.
? Enrollment hasn't increased.
jrw
sinistersteve
half as many adminstrators. You cut from the top, not the bottom. Cutting
from the bottom will only cause everything to collapse.
"Baxter" <lbax01.s...@baxcode.com> wrote in message
news:vchp791...@corp.supernews.com...
Baxter
you say is true, nor, if true, why we would have 20 times as many
administrators per student as NYC (and when you enumerate it that way, it
sounds even more unlikely that your claim is true.)
I keep hearing the claim that we've got too many administrators, yet I don't
see that in the budgets presented - nor have I seen any other verifiable
confirmation.
--
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Free software - Baxter Codeworks www.baxcode.com
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"sinistersteve" <sinist...@nospammeattbi.com> wrote in message
news:_fdya.188712$pa5.1...@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net...
Dale
>
> "Dale" yet again blathered:
>
>
> MAJOR SNIPS
>
>> Do I really need to define "well rounded" for you? For someone who wrote
>> "fallacy of false symmetry", "well rounded" is a little difficult for you?
>
> Yes, you do. You used a phrase without any commonly understood or
> universally accepted meaning. You used it in what is in effect a
> political debate. Its not too much to ask to expect you to define thge
> phrase before asking someone to slavishly agree with you as to the
> desireability of achieving the phrase as a goal to be desired by all.
>
> You delight in cheap rehtorical games. You won't discuss merits.
> Sad. Typical.
I take it you will never understand well rounded. Playing dumb doesn't cut
it.
>
> MORE SNIPS
>
>
>> I see. So what you're really saying is that education in Oregon is crap,
>> will always be crap, and you're not going to spend one cent on it. That's
>> really what it is.
>>>
>
> Actually what I am saying is that you are incapable of reading and
> comprehending simple dec;larative sentences. Instead of doing so, you
> presume to change my thought and intents to represent some "straw man"
> which you knock down. Again, a silly failure to come to grips with the
> actual issues.
>
>
> As for spending "...one cent..." on education, try not to let your
> rhetoric and emotion totally overpower you.
>
> Portland specifically has the per student spending in the West.
> Peeriod. Portland, specifically has been throwing more and more money
> every year at its education system for the last 25 years that I've followed
> the issues. The product at the end is worse than it was 25 years ago.
> The costs per student have increased far far more than the rate of
> inflation, AND THE STUDENT CENSUS IN PORTLAND HAS DECLINED precipitiously in
> that time frame,.
>
> More money per student, fewer students, worse results.
Actually, although you won't believe it, Portland Public Schools, have had
less money to work with for years. Perhaps you didn't see where, if
inflation is counted, Portland is actually operating on $100 million a year
LESS.
>
> Sounds a little like the picture for the Acme Buggy Whip and Saddle
> Company.
>
> But again rather than address issues like failure of the public system,
> you want to indulge in rhetorical flourishes.
>
> To you, my being reluctant to pour an _additional_ 15% in income taxes
> into schools equates to spending zero.
>
> Fallicy of the false dichotomy or false alternative. Are you really so
> ill educated that you don't see that?
>
> Ahhhh.... what happenned to the first $350 million PPS is getting next
> year without the tax increase/ In your view is that "nothing" Apparently
> so.
> What a strange world you live in where $350 million is nothing.
$350 million is a lot of money. But, you can't just look at the figure and
say "that's enough". You have little understanding of what that money does.
Yes, lots of it goes to salaries. Look at any entity, most goes to salaries.
>
> I suspect that you feed at the education trough. You area teacher or
> an administratior like Joycie, right?
Damn right, I'm a teacher. Does that make my point less valuable? Remember,
I also pay taxes, both property and personal, as does my wife, who works for
a large employer who SUPPORTS both the Portland and Beaverton measures. Even
put money into the campaign to promote it.
>
>
>>
>> Thing is, with your beloved charter schools, your tax money would go to
> them
>> as well, but you don't want to pay for students to go to charter schools
>> either.
>>>
>
> You don't get it at all. I like paying taxes for schools. I like
> schools that effectively and efficiently educate.
>
> And after the farce of the City / County mugging of the Portland school
> board in contract negotiations, where there was zero attempt to get control
> of benefits and costs, I have no confidence that any of the increase will
> have any classroom impact. The vast bulk of the money to be raised by the
> 15% income tax increase goes to teacher fringe benefits, and the Portland
> School system has effectively passed into the control of the county
> executive.
Then vote for new school board members. Remember, however, the teachers are
also teaching 10 days without pay. Greedy bastards.
>
> I don't see paying an additional 15% for more of the same.
>
> SNIPS
>
>> Bottom line is, without saying it, is that you're voting "NO" on this
>> measure, right?
>
> Absolutely I have already voted "NO."
>
>
>> You'll vote "No" in five, ten, twenty years, never mind
>> about anything.
>
> Really? You can predict the future that well? Wow!
Tell us when you vote for a measure for schools. I'll buy you a beer.
>
> Hey, I'll give you the "$ 200.00" and you can invest it for the
> Portland Schools Foundation and pump all the profits into the schools.
> With your knowledge of the future, you will be at least as effective as
> hillary Clinton in the commodities market.
Or Cheney at Haliburton.
>
>> You'll have your extra $200 in your pocket to spend in a
>> state with a crumbling infrastructure. If you think it's pro-business to
>> think this way, think again.
>
> Crumbling infrastructure? So what part of the Multnomah County 15 % tax
> raise goes to roads and bridges? Yeah, thought so. Too much emotion, no
> logic and no facts bub.
Schools aren't part of our infrastructure? Surely you jest.
>
> Pro business schmoe business. There isn't any meaningless PR phrase
> you won't grab for, is there? How about "pro taxpayer"?
>
>
>> We won't get quality businesses to come here if
>> our schools are gutted.
>
> But we can get the ones we have to leave by constantly increasing taxes.
> And the net outflow of jobs from PDX and Mult County to the outer 'burbs and
> to Clark county is staggering.
>
> You of course will fix that by spending more money on "economic
> development" luring baseball teams, or widget makers, from California, and
> compete with other states to give away future tax revenue if they will on;ly
> move their business here.
>
>> You think Intel came to Oregon because we're cutting
>> days in the school year? You're short-sighted.
>>>
>
> I know that Intel came to Oregon because the State and Washington County
> and Hillsboro gave away more in tax rebates and tax breaks to Intel than any
> other state was willing to do. Plain and simple.
>
> Intel didn't come to Oregon because of the length of the elementary
> school, middle school or high school academic year.
Got it. Those people don't have children. I'll tell that to the 50-75 kids
in our school who have Intel parents.
Jim McLaughlin
"Joyce Reynolds-Ward
though incapable of rational thought decided to share with us:
SNIPS
>
> Entertaining to hear that education is the one thing which shouldn't
> keep up with inflation by the arguments of you and others.
Ahhh... you really don't want to go with that argument babe. PPS
spending has increased at multiples of the inflation rate over the past 20
years. Nice try, dumb argument.
>Or that
> education is considered to be throwing money away.
I don't recall any body here talking about throwing money away. Do you
have a reading comprehension problem?
I mentioned throwing money AT a problem, as if only an application of
unlimited amounts of money solved anything. Thats your approach. Nothing
is too much and all spending requested by the ed bureaucracy is a
"necessity".
Can you comprehend the difference between "needs" and "wants"?
Heat in a school building is a need. Electricity is a need.
Feeding hungry kids breakfast so they can concentrate on llearning is a
"need".
Full payment of unlimited health insurance premiums for staff is a "want".
"Outdoor School" is a "want." I want that. I can't get it though.
A brand new $ 100 k / year admin posiytion is a "want".
15 kids per class is a "want". 30 kids per class is a "need".
Resources are not infinite. Time for the education bureaucracy in PDX
to make real choices.
But then again it has. Repeatedly. 3 years ago, the ubnion insisted
on big raises for top tier long tenured teachers and threw the newbies to
the unemployment line. Structuring that contract to keep new teachers
would have gone a long way to keep class sizes where the ed bureaucracy
claims it should be. Biut when it came to raises for te long termers as
opposed to keeping new taechers, the new teachers ( and class sizes) were
sacrificed to the greed of the ed bureaucracy.
>The attitude is a
> dead giveaway...kids are a problem, they should take whatever scraps
> are left over after the adults are done and if there's nothing for the
> kids...well, too bad.
>
Yep. Its what the teachers and the admisn in PPS have been doing
for years. Glad you recognize it.
sinistersteve
for?
"Baxter" <lbax01.s...@baxcode.com> wrote in message
news:vcippsg...@corp.supernews.com...
Baxter
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Free software - Baxter Codeworks www.baxcode.com
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"Jim McLaughlin" <jimmcl...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:Rheya.189418$pa5.1...@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net...
>
> I mentioned throwing money AT a problem, as if only an application of
> unlimited amounts of money solved anything. Thats your approach.
Nothing
> is too much and all spending requested by the ed bureaucracy is a
> "necessity".
>
> Can you comprehend the difference between "needs" and "wants"?
> Heat in a school building is a need. Electricity is a need.
Electicity? Depends. I've known some schools that did without. But
speaking of Electricty, how much has the price of Elecricity gone up over
the years you keep harping about?
>
> Feeding hungry kids breakfast so they can concentrate on llearning is
a
> "need".
At least we've got through to you a little bit. Next question: how much has
the cost of those meals gone up?
>
> Full payment of unlimited health insurance premiums for staff is a
"want".
Not if you contracted to pay for them - which you did.
> "Outdoor School" is a "want." I want that. I can't get it though.
Not really. You can claim that any course is a want - doesn't make it so.
Before you denegrate Outdoor School, perhaps you need to talk to some of the
kids who went there.
> A brand new $ 100 k / year admin posiytion is a "want".
Do show where those are being created.
>
> 15 kids per class is a "want". 30 kids per class is a "need".
And many teachers "want" to have only 30 kids - with the current budget,
they'll get a lot more.
>
> Resources are not infinite. Time for the education bureaucracy in
PDX
> to make real choices.
>
You just keep mouthing unproven mantras. They sound good, but when asked to
back them up there's just no support for your claims.
Baxter
mouthing the same old tired canard again and again. You're the one who
claims we have too many administrators (by a factor of 20), now PROVE IT!
--
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Free software - Baxter Codeworks www.baxcode.com
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"sinistersteve" <sinist...@nospammeattbi.com> wrote in message
news:eseya.385089$Si4.3...@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net...
sinistersteve
source and vehemetly deny its legitimacy.
"Baxter" <lbax01.s...@baxcode.com> wrote in message
news:vcj07hr...@corp.supernews.com...
Jim McLaughlin
"Joyce Reynolds-Ward" demonstarting the intelligence of a half brained
amoeba, wrote:
> > I do hope that both Dick Devlin and Greg Macpherson, for whom I
> >campaigned and voted, are aware that you have classified them as
proponents
> >of a "'no new taxes' partisan line."
>
> You sound as if you think I should know these people, bub.
>
Babe, you should. Unless your ignorance is a vast as your arrogance.
Two of the three most expensive legislative races in the state last go
round. Do try to pay attention outside of your immediate personal financial
concerns. Devlin kept Tiernan from coming back.
Your "impression" is a lot lot Jack nance garner's "impression" of the
Vice Presidency. Go look it up, since yout education degree taught you
nothing.
We'll wait for you to catch up.
>I see kids
> studying math at levels at least two years earlier than was the norm
> either for me or for friends who went through schools ten years
> earlier, during the heat of Sputnik. I see decent science being
> taught in spite of budget limitations.
>
> Where I *do* see problems are issues not isolated to Portland but in
> specific methodologies and curricula which are, unfortunately, the
> norm these days.
Hmmm. The current "norm" of ed school driven orthodoxies,
slavishly adopted en masse by the ed bureaucracies in general and PPS in
particular doesn't work?
Amazing!
Welcome, pilgrim. There may be hope for you. Not much, but there may
be hope.
> Composition is not as rigorously taught as it used
> to be. Social studies has not improved, and may have even gone
> downhill (of course, to the activist sorts, English composition is
> hardly a priority while Social Studies is a major obsession). There
> are fewer art and music courses, and despite the rhetoric you put
> forth, there *are* studies suggesting that music, at least, is a
> contributor to math performance. Art and music were also means of
> communicating culture in addition to social studies and history
> courses which we just plain don't have now.
So? Your point is what......spend money on music and art classes to
accomplish communication of culture taht you appear to admit is better done
with rigorous history and social studies classes. Why use the an indirect
method to partially accomplish a goal which you obviously recognize is
important -- cultural communication and acculturation. If its important,
do it directly wirth the history and social study work. Why beat around
the bush with indirect and inefficient methodologies.
Oh, wait. You are a PSU ed school product. Never mind, neither
logixc nor efficiency are values in your world.
Its long past time to blow up the ed schools.
My father's degrees were Univ. Chicago for the masters in Ed. and
Columbia for the Ph. D. I know the ed biz as a consumer, as a kid of an
ed practicioner, and as a partent of 4 of the more recent products of the ed
biz as practiced in PDX.
> Even in my blue-collar
> public schools as a kid we had twice-a-week music in grade school and
> music classes in junior high and high school. Part of those music
> classes included history, and were means of imparting knowledge about
> that European cultural heritage which everyone now bemoans our kids
> don't know anything about.
>
Yeah. So why not do it directly?
> Gee, I wonder why? Maybe because those so-called "useless" arts and
> music classes were doing more to contribute to education than most
> folks thought?
>
Or maybe because those were relatively "flush" times, and the
classes were in addition to, not in place of, rigorous academics.
Cut the fluff and require rigorous academics. But then, 60 % of
the ed school product teachers couldn't pass rigorous high school classe.
Thats why the ed bureaucracy fights teacher credentialing and performance
testing.
> Vocational ed is pathetic, except for places like Benson (and you'll
> be happy to hear that your no vote will kill the vocational programs
> at Benson).
May come as a big surprise to you babe, but two of my four kids went
through the voc path at Benson. One is now an MS in Physics, working on
his PhD. Other is a far too wealthy and far too arrogant softeware type
for a Fortune 100 company.
The other two went through the traditional "liberal arts" program at
safe and oh so politically correct Wilson. One is a telephone bill
collector for a furniture rental place (he was the high school football
star), the other is a used car salesman.
Go figgure.
>Home ec? Don't make me laugh.
>
Yeah. But it makes me laugh. Most folks I know learned how to cook,
clean and budgeta at home before they were 13.
> > Twenty five years of throwing more dollars per student each year at
the
> >problem has not worked. Why do you think twenty five more years of the
> >same will work?
>
> Entertaining to hear that education is the one thing which shouldn't
> keep up with inflation by the arguments of you and others. Or that
> education is considered to be throwing money away. The attitude is a
> dead giveaway...kids are a problem, they should take whatever scraps
> are left over after the adults are done and if there's nothing for the
> kids...well, too bad.
>
SNIPS
> Gee, funny how none of these folks "get" the concept that a teacher's
> license does not exempt one from paying the same taxes.
>
It'd be interesting to compare your anticipated raise under the new
contract with what the tax increase will cost you.
I'm willing to bet you'll collect a lot more than you'll pay.
Right?
The silence is deafening.
Jim McLaughlin
MAJOR SNIPS
> Actually, although you won't believe it, Portland Public Schools, have
had
> less money to work with for years. Perhaps you didn't see where, if
> inflation is counted, Portland is actually operating on $100 million a
year
> LESS.
> >
Wrong. The taxes for PPS scholls and school spending have advanced
far more than the inflation rate. God knows it may shock you, but after
the Carter years inflation a has been quite low.
Corrected for inflation, the PPS spending per student has grown at
almost triple the inflation rate. The school census has declined
precipitiously, and this the dollars artifically look lowere. But the per
student spending has mushroomed almost 300 per cent since 1980.
SNIPS
> $350 million is a lot of money. But, you can't just look at the figure and
> say "that's enough". You have little understanding of what that money
does.
> Yes, lots of it goes to salaries. Look at any entity, most goes to
salaries.
And your point is what........
> >
> > I suspect that you feed at the education trough. You area teacher
or
> > an administratior like Joycie, right?
>
> Damn right, I'm a teacher. Does that make my point less valuable?
Remember,
> I also pay taxes, both property and personal, as does my wife, who works
for
> a large employer who SUPPORTS both the Portland and Beaverton measures.
Even
> put money into the campaign to promote it.
Yep. And there is the truth. You will collect a lot more in
raises and benefits than you'll pay in taxes.
And all the bullshit about "the children" won't alter the reality
that you support to tax increase so you can put your hand in my pocket for
your personmal benefit.
Huuuuh?
What part of commodities fraud and steraling don'yt you understand.
Cheney is a venal and nasty SOB. Nobody has made a case that
he's a crook. Which is more than can be said for Hillary.
i have to admit though taht Hillary should get credit for
substantially raising the moral climate of Arkansas. She and Bill were the
first Arkansas gubernatorial couple to actually declare their bribes as
income and pay taxes on the bribes. Thats a remarkable accomplishmennt in
Arkansas.
Do that. Ask them also to make voluntary contributions from the bucks
they made cashing in Intel stock options in the fat years.
> >>>
Wonder just how much Hillsboro would like a few of those property
tax braeks back right now?
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
<jimmcl...@attbi.com> wrote:
various snips of ranting
> Resources are not infinite. Time for the education bureaucracy in PDX
>to make real choices.
>
> But then again it has. Repeatedly. 3 years ago, the ubnion insisted
>on big raises for top tier long tenured teachers and threw the newbies to
>the unemployment line. Structuring that contract to keep new teachers
>would have gone a long way to keep class sizes where the ed bureaucracy
>claims it should be. Biut when it came to raises for te long termers as
>opposed to keeping new taechers, the new teachers ( and class sizes) were
>sacrificed to the greed of the ed bureaucracy.
Um...Jim?
Either slow down your typing so that it's readable or calm down before
you write. Your typos make it difficult sometimes.
What I'm hearing you bitch about ties back into labor management
issues...which is *not*, when the rubber hits the road, the
responsibility of the bureaucracy. They aren't the ones who have the
final responsibility.
What this all speaks of is shitty leadership and management on the
part of the school board. Let's put the responsiblity where it
belongs. Who did the negotiating with the teachers and who had the
final responsibility in the long run?
For that matter, who's supposed to control the bureaucracy? Yep,
that's right. Those elected officials. So why aren't they? Why
haven't they been doing so? Maybe because they've been busier
fighting over status points with each other? Getting rid of four of
them this go-round was a fine start.
Getting a better group of elected officials this next go-round is
imperative, but I've not been too greatly impressed by any of 'em this
time.
jrw
Jim McLaughlin
managed system is no answer.
Its like giving more booze to an alcoholic.
Cut off the flow of ADDITIONAL money and some rational decisions will
be made out of sheer desperation.
Note the slates in this election. One set of truly ignorant know
nothings. (Leader Capital / Lekas and Co.?) and one set recruited and
selected by the same set of Irvington wannabe' pols ( and utter electoral
failures like Abrams) who have presided over 25 years of declining
performance and increasing costs.
Kafoury and company have zero credibility.
"Joyce Reynolds-Ward" <j...@aracnet.com> wrote in message
news:3ec991e5...@news.aracnet.com...
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
<jimmcl...@attbi.com> wrote:
snip
> Two of the three most expensive legislative races in the state last go
>round. Do try to pay attention outside of your immediate personal financial
>concerns. Devlin kept Tiernan from coming back.
These days I ignore the Lege as much as possible. Most of 'em ain't
worth the cost of a balloon to catch their hot air. When they stop
playing partisan games and start doing some serious solutions, then
I'll pay attention. Otherwise...they're hopeless.
snip
> Your "impression" is a lot lot Jack nance garner's "impression" of the
>Vice Presidency. Go look it up, since yout education degree taught you
>nothing.
How complimentary of you to grant me a degree I've yet to earn.
>We'll wait for you to catch up.
Yawn. As if a retired attorney has the ability to look at anything
rationally--hey, you bash one profession, be prepared to take it for
your own.
snip
> Hmmm. The current "norm" of ed school driven orthodoxies,
>slavishly adopted en masse by the ed bureaucracies in general and PPS in
>particular doesn't work?
Please try to read for comprehension. I said there were problems, not
that they don't work.
Some work, some don't. And in this area, bub, I'm miles ahead of you.
I am the daughter of a teacher who started out in the classic "one
room schoolhouse," pre-World War II. Got her certificate when
Southern Oregon was still Southern Oregon Normal. I grew up reading
her professional journals and talking to her about teaching...and
while she went with some of the orthodoxies of the day, she also
thought some of them stunk and was very specific and vocal to me about
what she did and didn't like. That's the hallmark of a good teacher.
Too bad you've apparently not met one.
I still meet people who get choked up when I tell them she died years
ago, and then tell me stories about how she believed in them and
helped them learn. Lots nicer than the hell I went through as a kid,
when I kept running into kids who hated her because she was strict.
Anyway. Some of the orthodoxies are good, others not so good. I like
the new stuff in math, especially since there appear to be decent
results in kids who have been following a single program consistently.
Others may bitch about how it's changed, but I see kids who *get*
number theory much more solidly than they used to, at earlier ages. I
like the Connected Math program. It appears to work, and the school
that I saw which aggressively implimented it is now teaching Geometry
classes.
snip
> Welcome, pilgrim. There may be hope for you. Not much, but there may
>be hope.
Wake up and smell the coffee. I cut my teeth on this stuff, and am
just coming back to it after years away except as a parent. I also
don't buy the old orthodoxies that rote drilling and learning of the
sort I did as a child really works. Rehearsal can work for some
things, but only if used appropriately.
But then again, I know better than to get a certificate in regular
teaching in English or Social Studies. I'd probably give them all
scary dreams (and, since I maxed my prepro test scores in writing I've
the potential to really scare 'em).
>> Composition is not as rigorously taught as it used
>> to be. Social studies has not improved, and may have even gone
>> downhill (of course, to the activist sorts, English composition is
>> hardly a priority while Social Studies is a major obsession). There
>> are fewer art and music courses, and despite the rhetoric you put
>> forth, there *are* studies suggesting that music, at least, is a
>> contributor to math performance. Art and music were also means of
>> communicating culture in addition to social studies and history
>> courses which we just plain don't have now.
> So? Your point is what......spend money on music and art classes to
>accomplish communication of culture taht you appear to admit is better done
>with rigorous history and social studies classes. Why use the an indirect
>method to partially accomplish a goal which you obviously recognize is
>important -- cultural communication and acculturation. If its important,
>do it directly wirth the history and social study work. Why beat around
>the bush with indirect and inefficient methodologies.
Try reading for comprehension, buddy. Clearly you missed my point
entirely.
What you view as an indirect method may be a more direct method for
students with different ways of learning. I do not admit that culture
communication is better done with rigorous history and social studies
classes--that is your own construct, not mine. I consider them all to
be essentials. Part of understanding the history of Europe is
listening to its music and looking at its art. The same is true of
any other place and culture--especially when one looks at what it
means when a culture does not allow representational art, or when most
of the music is religious rather than secular. I think the study of
art and music is a crucial part of rigorous history and social studies
programs, and omitting their study is a major failing in modern day
education programs.
Art and music are tools to understanding a culture and its history.
Listen to Renaissance music as opposed to Baroque music, or Beethoven
and then John Philip Sousa and tell me you can't hear the cultural
differences.
Additionally, the study of art and the study of music compliment other
areas. There have been studies done which demonstrate that the study
of music facilitates the study of math. That's entirely reasonable
because performed music *has* a mathematical basis, as anyone who
reads music can tell you. Each measure has a certain number of beats,
certain types of music have a certain number of measures, and some
compositions can be generated using mathematical progressions. Anyone
who scoffs at the study of music as unessential and frivolous is an
uneducated lout, in my opinion, and in that opinion I am calling not
upon modern day educators but hearkening back to older traditions,
especially back toward the Renaissance.
(And as for the Renaissance...a Renaissance without art and music to
go along with the gains in philosophy, literature and science?
Unthinkable!)
> Oh, wait. You are a PSU ed school product. Never mind, neither
>logixc nor efficiency are values in your world.
Spoken and spelled like a typical law school graduate. If it can't be
shoehorned into rigorous Socratic logic, it is of no use.
(and ps. I'm not a PSU ed school product, yet).
snip
> Its long past time to blow up the ed schools.
One would hope with better spelling than this.
Yes, I'm stooping to spelling flames. At this point I feel it's
justified. How reliable is the opinion of an education critic who
can't spell?
Heal yourself first.
> My father's degrees were Univ. Chicago for the masters in Ed. and
>Columbia for the Ph. D. I know the ed biz as a consumer, as a kid of an
>ed practicioner, and as a partent of 4 of the more recent products of the ed
>biz as practiced in PDX.
Well, I'll stack my mother's Normal School certificate against your
father's fancy degrees any day. I seriously doubt that as a Dr. he
was in the classroom--at that level most folks are either teaching
college or in administration.
My mother taught in a one room school, pre-World War II. She took
time off to have kids, then went back and taught junior high--while
coping with adult-onset deafness. After she had me, she taught
elementary school for 18 more years, teaching 3rd/4th, 6th, and one
year a mixed 6th and 2nd grade class. That one freaked everyone else
out, because no one could figure how to do it well. She did, and was
doing this in a millworker, working class town.
She may have lacked the big degrees and theories of your father, but
she had a strong practical grasp on what it took to teach kids and
some firm opinions about how classrooms should and shouldn't be run.
I notice that some tricks she used are now being applied in special ed
resource rooms. I regret she's not around now to compare notes
with--years ago when she told me not to go into education, I listened
(at the end of the 70s) because she gave very good reasons with regard
to the unsettled nature of educational reform, school finance, and
what she saw as upcoming major discipline issues.
Now I think she just saw what has more or less become a permanent
condition, and at this point I see teaching as a more viable
profession than what I've been doing.
As for my own experience, I have both Portland Public and parochial
school experience in this town. I'm here to tell you right out that
private does not necessarily equal better quality instruction than
public, and if the administrator is of a poor quality, then the school
is of a poor quality. Plain and simple. I would scream if I ever saw
a Portland Public teacher exhibit the same degree of poor literacy
which I saw in one of my son's English teachers at this parochial
school. There were some good teachers, which kept us there, but after
the early years there were fewer and fewer competent teachers. It was
telling that the good teacher who had school aged kids sent them to
Portland Public.
snip
> Or maybe because those were relatively "flush" times, and the
>classes were in addition to, not in place of, rigorous academics.
Or maybe because people of that era understood that these classes
contributed to a better understanding of the courses being studied.
> Cut the fluff and require rigorous academics. But then, 60 % of
>the ed school product teachers couldn't pass rigorous high school classe.
>Thats why the ed bureaucracy fights teacher credentialing and performance
>testing.
Go right on ahead and make these claims while misspelling words and
not using your apostrophes correctly. While you're at it, please note
that many schools which consider themselves to be rigorous
academically also include music and art in their curriculum. Gee,
wonder why they have time for that fluff, huh?
And bring on the tough credentialling. I know where I'm weak, but I'm
not about to step into teaching high school math or science. Give me
a social studies or English class--best of all a writing class--and
I'll wager I can do better than you could (I repeat, I topped out the
scoring in the language comprehension, usage and writing portions of
my preprofessional exams, and did respectably in the math section,
though nowhere near as well. I would have benefited from today's math
methodologies as a youth; as it were the study of the methods in one
class helped me immensely).
There's a logical fallacy that "rigor" excludes the practice of art or
music. I suspect you have not been around anyone who has studied
either in a serious fashion.
snip
> May come as a big surprise to you babe, but two of my four kids went
>through the voc path at Benson. One is now an MS in Physics, working on
>his PhD. Other is a far too wealthy and far too arrogant softeware type
>for a Fortune 100 company.
Fine. Too bad your vote will help kill the program for my son, now in
his sophomore year at Benson. I hope and pray they find a way to save
the electronic engineering section, but from what they're saying, it's
dead. Then again, what do you care? Your kids are through the
program.
(they claim they will cut 26 teachers at Benson. That's the entire
tech program. I hope they pull it out of their butts to save it...but
dear God, I had hoped I was done with parochial school type
fundraising).
> The other two went through the traditional "liberal arts" program at
>safe and oh so politically correct Wilson. One is a telephone bill
>collector for a furniture rental place (he was the high school football
>star), the other is a used car salesman.
Wilson as safe? Not on your life. I've heard too much about rich
kids at Wilson partying down, from swim team kids.
> Go figgure.
Shrug. I know successful corporate leaders who have undergrad liberal
arts degrees before getting their MBA. One of last year's Benson
grads killed his girlfriend. Methinks anecdotal tales aren't exactly
what makes a decent comparison...especially if there is a parent who
doesn't necessarily view the liberal arts, especially arts and music,
as necessities in a rigorous education.
snip
> It'd be interesting to compare your anticipated raise under the new
>contract with what the tax increase will cost you.
Kinda hard to do since I don't have my certificate yet--therefore no
contract--and, to be honest, I'm not about to jump into the quagmire
which is Portland Public if I can find a job in another district
instead. PPS's problems are more than financial and I'd just as soon
not cope with them any longer than I have to. If my son wasn't in
Benson (and facing damn few decent alternatives, plus he really likes
the school, especially those programs which are doomed) we'd be
looking at different alternatives for his education. I won't send him
to Cleveland (my neighborhood school) for various reasons; nor will I
send him to any of the local Catholic high schools (I think the
Archdiocese of Portland has even more screwed up methodologies than
PPS).
> I'm willing to bet you'll collect a lot more than you'll pay.
> Right?
Considering I'm not collecting anything from a teaching job right now,
any contract is more than what I'll pay in taxes.
> The silence is deafening.
Nice little strawman you've set up for yourself here.
jrw
V i c
> The funds for the baseball stadium will come
>from the stadium itself - if the stadium is not built, those funds will not
>come to the state in any form, nor for any purpose.
LOL!!!!
You're becoming less coherent with each progression.
Remember, we already have 3 sports arenas. $300 million in funds for the
new stadium were going to come from taxes on player salaries.
If the stadium is not built, but they get a major league team to play at
the Rose Garden, or Coliseum, or PGE Park.... the players' salaries will
still be taxed.
V i c
said:
>Dale, folks like this really don't care. They're too short-sighted
>and they'll grab at any straw to justify their BS.
Everyone has an opinion.
The FACT is, tax is already my single largest expense.
I don't buy the rhetoric that more tax is justified.
Baxter
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"Jim McLaughlin" <jimmcl...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:%whya.387494$Si4.3...@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net...
> Adding more money to what you have now admitted is a pathetically
> managed system is no answer.
>
> Its like giving more booze to an alcoholic.
>
> Cut off the flow of ADDITIONAL money and some rational decisions will
> be made out of sheer desperation.
>
> Note the slates in this election. One set of truly ignorant know
> nothings. (Leader Capital / Lekas and Co.?) and one set recruited and
> selected by the same set of Irvington wannabe' pols ( and utter electoral
> failures like Abrams) who have presided over 25 years of declining
> performance and increasing costs.
>
> Kafoury and company have zero credibility.
Your stupidity has no bounds. Let's assume that you are right and the
school administration is evil - cutting funds will NOT cut those evil
administrators -- they would protect their jobs at all costs. The only way
cutting school funds would cut administration is if that administration
truly cared -- which would mean that they weren't the problem in the first
place.
Baxter
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"V i c" <heh...@stupidspammer.net> wrote in message
news:ncejcvkmi4cnidafk...@4ax.com...
You haven't been listening, have you? MLB will NOT come to Portland and
play the Rose Garden, or Coliseum, or PGE Park. There will be no player
salaries to tax.
(ps. do you really expect us to believe that baseball can be played at the
Rose Garden or the Coliseum? You're so busy ranting, you can't get your
facts straight.)
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
<jimmcl...@attbi.com> wrote:
snip
> Cut off the flow of ADDITIONAL money and some rational decisions will
>be made out of sheer desperation.
You're a raging optimist. It just means more stupidity arises out of
sheer desperation (seen it in action elsewhere).
> Note the slates in this election. One set of truly ignorant know
>nothings. (Leader Capital / Lekas and Co.?) and one set recruited and
>selected by the same set of Irvington wannabe' pols ( and utter electoral
>failures like Abrams) who have presided over 25 years of declining
>performance and increasing costs.
I did a pick and choose, and deliberately avoided a slate vote. I
voted for one person on a slate, but that was based on his merits, not
any particular slate.
As for Abrams...well, let's just say there's a reason why he doesn't
do well running for office (like a sizeable bad history plus he's
ticked off far too many people in his past, including myself. I can
tell you first hand that he will cut a deal and then turn around and
knife you in the back if he thinks it will further his personal
ambitions. Yeah, this was in party politics, not electoral politics,
but my attitude is that if someone's gonna do stuff like that in party
politics, then they don't belong in electoral politics).
jrw
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
wrote:
snip
>The FACT is, tax is already my single largest expense.
>I don't buy the rhetoric that more tax is justified.
Lucky you, to have tax as your single largest expense.
jrw
Lobby Dosser
@news.aracnet.com:
Actually this is not too surprising. I'm not exactly rolling in dough, and
last year federal and state tax combined was my biggest single expense. Off
the top of my head I think combined taxes have been my biggest single
expense for many years. I don't feel particularly lucky about it, but I
also don't whine much about it except for the weeks leading up to April
15th every year.
LD
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
<lobby.dos...@verizon.net> wrote:
snip
>Actually this is not too surprising. I'm not exactly rolling in dough, and
>last year federal and state tax combined was my biggest single expense. Off
>the top of my head I think combined taxes have been my biggest single
>expense for many years. I don't feel particularly lucky about it, but I
>also don't whine much about it except for the weeks leading up to April
>15th every year.
I guess. Haven't really done the figures on it (it's probably right
up there) but the costs of having the kid is right up there with the
taxes (mainly because we do spend money on additional education stuff
and will probably pay even more should this tax go down today--and
even with health insurance he has expensive illnesses, asthma and
Crohn's). Then again, it'd be a lot more if we didn't have health
insurance, because of his health issues...on the Crohn's alone, if
we'd had to pay full amount (instead of Kaiser co-pays) we'd be
looking at something like $18,000 in medical bills. It is an
expensive disease, but treatment ain't an optional thing. Not when a
16 year old boy drops 40 plus pounds in two months and other ugly
stuff.
But that's life. We take the cards we are dealt.
This year, though, the most expensive thing on our plate is my grad
school. I'm still in sticker shock at the thought of paying for one
term what I used to pay for the entire year of undergrad studies. But
hey, what should I expect after over 22 years?
Scary article in this week's Time magazine--the cover article talks
about something I kinda thought was coming but didn't want to
see--wage freezes and wage cuts for a lot of professions.
jrw
V i c
penguins, "Baxter" <lbax01.s...@baxcode.com> shuddered violently and
said:
>You haven't been listening, have you? MLB will NOT come to Portland and
>play the Rose Garden, or Coliseum, or PGE Park. There will be no player
>salaries to tax.
>
>(ps. do you really expect us to believe that baseball can be played at the
>Rose Garden or the Coliseum? You're so busy ranting, you can't get your
>facts straight.)
Here are facts... the sizes of the stadium's playing surfaces:
Rose Garden arena 278 x 120
Memorial Coliseum 247x120
PGE Park 330 x 210
By removing 45 feet worth of seats (about 15 rows) from each side of the
Rose Garden or Coliseum, the width will equal that of PGE Park. Remove
another 20 or 30 rows from the back and the length will be the same.
Rather than permanently removing this seating, set it up on moveable
platforms.
These would be major projects but would certainly cost a lot less than
$450,000. Rather than tearing up the Rose Garden, the Coliseum would be a
better option for remodeling.
OH, and we already have PGE Park too.
But you said MLB will not play those venues.
Because you say it, it must be true.
sinistersteve
baseball.
"V i c" <heh...@stupidspammer.net> wrote in message
news:vhslcvgoscdiidq90...@4ax.com...
Lobby Dosser
[snip]
> I guess. Haven't really done the figures on it (it's probably right
> up there) but the costs of having the kid is right up there with the
> taxes (mainly because we do spend money on additional education stuff
> and will probably pay even more should this tax go down today--and
> even with health insurance he has expensive illnesses, asthma and
> Crohn's). Then again, it'd be a lot more if we didn't have health
> insurance, because of his health issues...on the Crohn's alone, if
> we'd had to pay full amount (instead of Kaiser co-pays) we'd be
> looking at something like $18,000 in medical bills. It is an
> expensive disease, but treatment ain't an optional thing. Not when a
> 16 year old boy drops 40 plus pounds in two months and other ugly
> stuff.
I think housing is typically the highest expense (is for me) and you'd
probably have to have a mortgage way beyond your means to spend more on
housing than taxes. Though, as you point out, there are exceptions.
I know what you are going through with the health issues. My son was born
with a T cell deficiency and, until he outgrew it at around 12, caught
cold if someone sneezed in the same room - not to mention flu, etc., etc.
He had a tutor at home for a while and, as his immune system gradually
improved, we had him in a private school with very small class sizes.
That was setting us back $10K/yr in the early 80s.
I have a friend in his late forties or early 50s with Crohn's, so I'm
familiar with the associated weight problems and medical expenses. You
have my sympathy and best wishes. I assume you have a support group for
the Crohn's, but if you want another reference point I could ask my
friend to get in touch with you. Just let me know.
>
> But that's life. We take the cards we are dealt.
'You got to know when to hold 'em and know when to fold 'em ..'
>
> This year, though, the most expensive thing on our plate is my grad
> school. I'm still in sticker shock at the thought of paying for one
> term what I used to pay for the entire year of undergrad studies. But
> hey, what should I expect after over 22 years?
Did undergrad and grad school on the GI Bill plus working most of the
time - late 70s. I've looked at some classes lately and had *serious*
sticker shock at the per hour tuition. 'Course a loaf of bread and a
gallon of milk can still give me sticker shock.
>
> Scary article in this week's Time magazine--the cover article talks
> about something I kinda thought was coming but didn't want to
> see--wage freezes and wage cuts for a lot of professions.
It's been here. I have a number of friends taking 20% cuts, some working
3 days per week and more than I can count not working at all. What I'd
really like to see is some pay cuts at the top. If you are a CEO and you
lay off half the company, you screwed up big time and need to be fired or
at the very least take a 50% pay cut. Unfortunately even the ones that do
get fired just shuffle on to the next drooling idiot board of directors
and pull a shuck & jive on them. Doesn't seem to matter what these guys
do, even if they drive the company into the ground they always land
buttered side up. <Whew, feel better now!>
LD
>
> jrw
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
<lobby.dos...@verizon.net> wrote:
snip
>I think housing is typically the highest expense (is for me) and you'd
>probably have to have a mortgage way beyond your means to spend more on
>housing than taxes. Though, as you point out, there are exceptions.
Good point, although looking at housing prices today...that, plus the
credit balances some folks carry on their credit cards is scary. We
pay ours off every month but not everyone does that. Add up the pile
of interest on credit some folks pay on a monthly basis (as credit
interest rather than the car interest, the house interest, the credit
card interest) and I think there are people out there paying more in
interest than taxes (pretty certain of it, actually, judging from some
people I talk to). *Not* a good thing...but while some of those folks
are spending recklessly, others are using credit as a lifeline because
of financial reverses.
>I know what you are going through with the health issues. My son was born
>with a T cell deficiency and, until he outgrew it at around 12, caught
>cold if someone sneezed in the same room - not to mention flu, etc., etc.
>He had a tutor at home for a while and, as his immune system gradually
>improved, we had him in a private school with very small class sizes.
>That was setting us back $10K/yr in the early 80s.
Eeek. Stuff from birth is scary. Our kid started with a heart
murmur, but it went away. Having him develop Crohn's at 16 was scary,
but not as scary as it would be seeing your baby really, really sick.
I'm glad to hear he grew out of it.
>I have a friend in his late forties or early 50s with Crohn's, so I'm
>familiar with the associated weight problems and medical expenses. You
>have my sympathy and best wishes. I assume you have a support group for
>the Crohn's, but if you want another reference point I could ask my
>friend to get in touch with you. Just let me know.
I know that there's an adult support group here, but I'd sure like
leads on a teen group for my son.
snip
>Did undergrad and grad school on the GI Bill plus working most of the
>time - late 70s. I've looked at some classes lately and had *serious*
>sticker shock at the per hour tuition. 'Course a loaf of bread and a
>gallon of milk can still give me sticker shock.
Ain't that the truth? I looked at PSU tuition vs Lewis and Clark
tuition and gulped (L&C says right out on its ed school web page that
per hour tuition is $525 per hour. Gulp). PSU is scary enough, price
wise. OTOH, like the legal assistant stuff, it's a profession where
once I get a job, I'll pay myself back the tuition cost.
Speaking of that, the tuition cost which really saddens me is the
community college tuition hike.
snip
>It's been here. I have a number of friends taking 20% cuts, some working
>3 days per week and more than I can count not working at all. What I'd
>really like to see is some pay cuts at the top. If you are a CEO and you
>lay off half the company, you screwed up big time and need to be fired or
>at the very least take a 50% pay cut. Unfortunately even the ones that do
>get fired just shuffle on to the next drooling idiot board of directors
>and pull a shuck & jive on them. Doesn't seem to matter what these guys
>do, even if they drive the company into the ground they always land
>buttered side up. <Whew, feel better now!>
Absofuckinlutely. They were trashing companies in the early 90s and
you'd think the boards of directors would have learned *then*, y'know.
jrw
Baxter
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"V i c" <heh...@stupidspammer.net> wrote in message
news:vhslcvgoscdiidq90...@4ax.com...
> Awakening from a dream about violent, psychotic and poorly groomed killer
> penguins, "Baxter" <lbax01.s...@baxcode.com> shuddered violently
and
> said:
>
> >You haven't been listening, have you? MLB will NOT come to Portland and
> >play the Rose Garden, or Coliseum, or PGE Park. There will be no player
> >salaries to tax.
> >
> >(ps. do you really expect us to believe that baseball can be played at
the
> >Rose Garden or the Coliseum? You're so busy ranting, you can't get your
> >facts straight.)
>
>
> Here are facts... the sizes of the stadium's playing surfaces:
>
> Rose Garden arena 278 x 120
> Memorial Coliseum 247x120
> PGE Park 330 x 210
>
> By removing 45 feet worth of seats (about 15 rows) from each side of the
> Rose Garden or Coliseum, the width will equal that of PGE Park. Remove
> another 20 or 30 rows from the back and the length will be the same.
>
> Rather than permanently removing this seating, set it up on moveable
> platforms.
>
> These would be major projects but would certainly cost a lot less than
> $450,000. Rather than tearing up the Rose Garden, the Coliseum would be a
> better option for remodeling.
>
How risible! Do run your proposal by Mr Allen - he should be more than
happy to make another billion or two. Or would that cost more than it would
bring in? Perhaps you think these people stupid - that they haven't thought
of such a moneymaker -- while you have Revealed Truth by the ass.
Lobby Dosser
[snip]
>
> I know that there's an adult support group here, but I'd sure like
> leads on a teen group for my son.
I've got an e-mail out to my friend. I'll let you know what he comes up
with.
[snip]
> Speaking of that, the tuition cost which really saddens me is the
> community college tuition hike.
Yeah, that is a bummer. I did my first two years at LBCC (28 going in).
Talked to the Linn County Veteran's Service guy about going to OSU. He
told me I'd be better off going to LBCC for the first two years as it was
1. cheaper, 2. had smaller class sizes, 3. taught the same stuff, and 4.
had teachers who were focused on teaching and not on research. Among the
best advice given to me.
>>It's been here. I have a number of friends taking 20% cuts, some
>>working 3 days per week and more than I can count not working at all.
>>What I'd really like to see is some pay cuts at the top. If you are a
>>CEO and you lay off half the company, you screwed up big time and need
>>to be fired or at the very least take a 50% pay cut. Unfortunately
>>even the ones that do get fired just shuffle on to the next drooling
>>idiot board of directors and pull a shuck & jive on them. Doesn't seem
>>to matter what these guys do, even if they drive the company into the
>>ground they always land buttered side up. <Whew, feel better now!>
>
> Absofuckinlutely. They were trashing companies in the early 90s and
> you'd think the boards of directors would have learned *then*, y'know.
Suppose you were a bus driver. Suppose you got a number of speeding
tickets and got fired. Think anyone would hire you to drive? In fact,
there are state and federal regs limiting the number of traffic
violations you can have and still hold a CDL. Similar with pilots, train
engineers, nurses, doctors, hair dressers ...Yet multi-billion dollar
companies will let you drive the whole thing regardless of past
performance.
And it goes deeper than the boards. The boards get 'elected' by the
shareholders who also don't give a rip just so long as the next quarter
looks good. The common mantra is that more than 50% of Americans own
stock. In reality it is indirectly through pension funds, IRAs, 401Ks,
etc. The big shareholders (pension funds, mutual funds, insurance
companies) are electing the boards, but if enough individuals complained
to the funds there just might be some changes. I'm not holding my breath.
LD
>
>
> jrw
>
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
<lobby.dos...@verizon.net> wrote:
snip
>Yeah, that is a bummer. I did my first two years at LBCC (28 going in).
>Talked to the Linn County Veteran's Service guy about going to OSU. He
>told me I'd be better off going to LBCC for the first two years as it was
>1. cheaper, 2. had smaller class sizes, 3. taught the same stuff, and 4.
>had teachers who were focused on teaching and not on research. Among the
>best advice given to me.
Community colleges really do a lot of service and I've gotta agree. I
chose not to go to Lane Community College, but that was because I knew
far too many people who were going there and I wanted OUT of the crowd
I was in.
snip
>Suppose you were a bus driver. Suppose you got a number of speeding
>tickets and got fired. Think anyone would hire you to drive? In fact,
>there are state and federal regs limiting the number of traffic
>violations you can have and still hold a CDL. Similar with pilots, train
>engineers, nurses, doctors, hair dressers ...Yet multi-billion dollar
>companies will let you drive the whole thing regardless of past
>performance.
Absolutely. It's rotten.
>And it goes deeper than the boards. The boards get 'elected' by the
>shareholders who also don't give a rip just so long as the next quarter
>looks good. The common mantra is that more than 50% of Americans own
>stock. In reality it is indirectly through pension funds, IRAs, 401Ks,
>etc. The big shareholders (pension funds, mutual funds, insurance
>companies) are electing the boards, but if enough individuals complained
>to the funds there just might be some changes. I'm not holding my breath.
It would be a worthwhile endeavor, but would take a lot of
organization to pull it off.
jrw
V i c
penguins, "Baxter" <lbax01.s...@baxcode.com> shuddered violently and
said:
>How risible! Do run your proposal by Mr Allen - he should be more than
>happy to make another billion or two. Or would that cost more than it would
>bring in? Perhaps you think these people stupid - that they haven't thought
>of such a moneymaker -- while you have Revealed Truth by the ass.
Remember me when you see this happen.
John Lienhart
Intel just cowed their shareholders into not expensing unexercised stock
options. I can't believe that they have the nerve to offer them if they
don't have some idea of the (potential) expense involved, and if they have
an idea, why not put it up front to the shareholders as soon as reasonably
possible.
Lobby Dosser
news:Ki6za.34$gY1....@news-west.eli.net:
[snip]
>
> Intel just cowed their shareholders into not expensing unexercised
> stock options. I can't believe that they have the nerve to offer them
> if they don't have some idea of the (potential) expense involved, and
> if they have an idea, why not put it up front to the shareholders as
> soon as reasonably possible.
>
How in the hell does a company 'cowe' their shareholders? The shareholders *own* the friggin
company! Got any more details?
LD
>
>