A True American Hero
b g
Paul Harris
Sunday December 29, 2002
The Observer
A convoy of anti-war activists, likely to include dozens of British
volunteers, will leave London next month to act as human shields protecting
strategic sites in Iraq.
The convoy to Baghdad is being organised by former US marine Kenneth
Nichols, who served in the first Gulf war and won a combat medal but has now
become a vociferous opponent of another Gulf conflict.
British protesters are also heading for the country in advance of any
Anglo-American bombing.
Nichols, 33, aims to gather scores of volunteers together in London and lead
the convoy on 10 January. It will drive across Europe, holding rallies in
various capital cities and collecting other human-shield demonstrators along
the way. It plans to travel via Amsterdam, Brussels, Paris, Zurich, Milan,
Sarajevo, Istanbul and Syria to Baghdad.
He is hoping that the convoy will arrive in the Iraqi capital around 24
January, three days before President George W Bush is to make his decision
on whether Iraq has complied with the UN weapons inspections, potentially
triggering a US-led invasion.
Nichols is willing to put his own life on the line to stop a war. 'In going
to Iraq I understand that I will likely not survive a US invasion,' he said.
Once in Iraq, members of the convoy will identify infrastructure targets for
bombing, such as power stations, key bridges and roads, and deploy
themselves as human shields in the glare of the international media.
'I don't think anyone will be happy about bombing somewhere they see being
protected by North Americans or Europeans,' he said.
In the 1991 conflict, Nichols was serving in the 2nd Battalion of the Marine
Corps. He was an infantryman on the road to Basra, where heavy Allied
bombing killed hundreds of retreating Iraqi soldiers. He left the Marine
Corps a year later.
His experience of war left him disillusioned with American foreign policy,
and he is now a vociferous opponent of US foreign interventions. 'Part of
the reason I want to go back is to apologise to the Iraqi people for what I
was doing there the first time I was in their country,' he said.
Part-time law student Jo Wilding, 28, is one Briton who is heading for the
region. She expects to fly to Baghdad on 10 January and then go to the
southern city of Basra. 'There is something I can do there just by being a
foreigner,' she said. 'If something does start when we are there, we will be
able to document it.'
Guardian Unlimited © Guardian Newspapers Limited 2002
gatt
"b g" <thegra...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3e1e6cb8$2...@news.1usenet.com...
> 'I don't think anyone will be happy about bombing somewhere they see being
> protected by North Americans or Europeans,' he said.
They won't be as unhappy as his mama when he's a dead ex-Marine.
What a dumbass. The US will engage in a war KNOWING that there will be US
Marines killed in action. They KNOW civilians will be killed. This guy will
be lucky if the Marines don't kill him themselves.
He's probably a spy. "Yeah...um...I was a Marine but I'm against war and
all, so we're just going to drive down there and hang out by their power
stations and supply depots and whatnot. Hopefully I'll get a chance to get
RIGHT NEXT to Saddam so I can, you know...protect him."
-c
x...@nospam.org
wrote:
He is a hero for sure. And also very naive. Army will follow orders
and bomb no matter who is down there, just like he did himself in the
first Gulf War.
But it does show that people who were in real combat (unlike the
chicken-hawks administration and some gung-ho posters on this board),
understand that War is an abomination and crime against humanity.
My hat off to this guy.
Johnny Lee
news:O3wT9.39283$xb.1...@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
Probably wasn't a good marine. No Semper Fi or nothing...
>
> -c
>
>
Johnny Lee
news:3e1e8ec4....@news.bctonline.com...
> On Thu, 9 Jan 2003 23:03:45 -0800, "b g" <thegra...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> He is a hero for sure. And also very naive. Army will follow orders
> and bomb no matter who is down there, just like he did himself in the
> first Gulf War.
> But it does show that people who were in real combat (unlike the
> chicken-hawks administration and some gung-ho posters on this board),
> understand that War is an abomination and crime against humanity.
Of course you're discounting thousands of other soldier in the war who
simply said "Bomb Iraq" again.
Don't let this marine nutjob disillusion you into thinking that those who
fought in wars have gained some greater insight. Most of them agree bombing
Iraq is the way to go.
Tom
"Johnny Lee" <johnl...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:m4xT9.631672$WL3.196561@rwcrnsc54...
> <x...@nospam.org> wrote in message
> news:3e1e8ec4....@news.bctonline.com...
> > On Thu, 9 Jan 2003 23:03:45 -0800, "b g" <thegra...@hotmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > He is a hero for sure. And also very naive. Army will follow orders
> > and bomb no matter who is down there, just like he did himself in the
> > first Gulf War.
> > But it does show that people who were in real combat (unlike the
> > chicken-hawks administration and some gung-ho posters on this board),
> > understand that War is an abomination and crime against humanity.
>
> Of course you're discounting thousands of other soldier in the war who
> simply said "Bomb Iraq" again.
>
> Don't let this marine nutjob disillusion you into thinking that those who
> fought in wars have gained some greater insight. Most of them agree
bombing
> Iraq is the way to go.
Well yes, the world has become comfortable with killing innocent people for
the most part.
As long as it isn't anyone they know, they don't seem to care.
The percentage of sick fucks in the world increases exponentially.
dpr
peace.
"gatt" <ga...@juggFUerbot.com> wrote in message
news:O3wT9.39283$xb.1...@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
>
Johnny Lee
>
> "Johnny Lee" <johnl...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:m4xT9.631672$WL3.196561@rwcrnsc54...
> > <x...@nospam.org> wrote in message
> > news:3e1e8ec4....@news.bctonline.com...
> > > On Thu, 9 Jan 2003 23:03:45 -0800, "b g" <thegra...@hotmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > He is a hero for sure. And also very naive. Army will follow orders
> > > and bomb no matter who is down there, just like he did himself in the
> > > first Gulf War.
> > > But it does show that people who were in real combat (unlike the
> > > chicken-hawks administration and some gung-ho posters on this board),
> > > understand that War is an abomination and crime against humanity.
> >
> > Of course you're discounting thousands of other soldier in the war who
> > simply said "Bomb Iraq" again.
> >
> > Don't let this marine nutjob disillusion you into thinking that those
who
> > fought in wars have gained some greater insight. Most of them agree
> bombing
> > Iraq is the way to go.
>
> Well yes, the world has become comfortable with killing innocent people
for
> the most part.
> As long as it isn't anyone they know, they don't seem to care.
> The percentage of sick fucks in the world increases exponentially.
Correct except for one point. The world as always been for the kill of
innocents that you do not know. Since the days of the Alexdander to Mr.
Kahn, nations cheer the conqueor, not the slain.
Your ingornance in history and the mere attempt in even trying to prove your
point is really what is sickening.
Tom
Furthermore, I do know my history, but engineering is my career, not
history.
Regardless, I never said anything about history, but what I did say about
NOW is true.
Sickening that you didn't get it...
Johnny Lee
No, your complete ignorance of it, as pointed out by other posters, is proof
enough.
> Furthermore, I do know my history, but engineering is my career, not
> history.
I hope you are a much better engineer than your claimed "know my history".
Be a better man an own up to the fact that you spoke out of your ass.
> Regardless, I never said anything about history, but what I did say about
> NOW is true.
What you said is mired in half truth and misconceptions. Take a few more
steps further and you have your common KKK. I know you're not the KKK.
Don't be like them.
> Sickening that you didn't get it...
No, it's a good thing there are eningeers like you out there working hard at
your work - your devotion is appearant to the complete lack of knowledge of
everything else, including humor.
Tom
and what was that?
and where is that in this thread?
>
> > Furthermore, I do know my history, but engineering is my career, not
> > history.
>
> I hope you are a much better engineer than your claimed "know my history".
> Be a better man an own up to the fact that you spoke out of your ass.
??? about what?
>
> > Regardless, I never said anything about history, but what I did say
about
> > NOW is true.
>
> What you said is mired in half truth and misconceptions. Take a few more
> steps further and you have your common KKK. I know you're not the KKK.
> Don't be like them.
you are wacked.
>
> > Sickening that you didn't get it...
>
> No, it's a good thing there are eningeers like you out there working hard
at
> your work - your devotion is appearant to the complete lack of knowledge
of
> everything else, including humor.
too fn funny
gatt
"Tom" <t...@nosleep.net> wrote in message news:3e1efa37$1...@nntp0.pdx.net...
> Well yes, the world has become comfortable with killing innocent people
for
> the most part.
> As long as it isn't anyone they know, they don't seem to care.
> The percentage of sick fucks in the world increases exponentially.
Which is technically impossible and, therefore, hyperbole.
I find it odd that people who think they know so much about modern warfare
and how "sick" America is probably couldn't even identify the incendiary
ingredient in napalm and don't understand the difference between precision
bombing and, say, Dresden or Tokyo.
As the percentage of sick fuck in the world increased exponentially, one
looks back to peaceful days of old...hmm...the Romans. The Vikings, the
Ottomans, orthe Crusades, or the inquisition, or the extermination of the
Incas, Aztecs, the American indians. Slavery. Mustard gas, nerve gas.
A "sick fuck" would have carpet bombed Baghdad into a giant sandpile ten
years ago and wouldn't have to look at Hussein on TV again.
-c
gatt
"Tom" <t...@nosleep.net> wrote in message
> > > Well yes, the world has become comfortable with killing innocent
people
> > > The percentage of sick fucks in the world increases exponentially.
> > Your ingornance in history and the mere attempt in even trying to prove
>> your point is really what is sickening.
> >
> Excuse the fuck out of me, but nowhere did I say anything about history.
How can one comment on the world, and its trends, and the alleged
exponential increase of "sick fucks" in the world--presumably over
time--without acknowledging history? On -what- do you base your world
knowledge? Engineering?
> Furthermore, I do know my history, but engineering is my career, not
> history. Regardless, I never said anything about history, but what I did
say about
> NOW is true.
Technically, a percentage cannot continue to increase without a time delta,
so your perception of "NOW" cannot possibly make sense. But don't let that
hinder your thought process. After all, you're an engineer.
Tom
"gatt" <ga...@juggFUerbot.com> wrote in message
>
> "Tom" <t...@nosleep.net> wrote in message
>
> > > > Well yes, the world has become comfortable with killing innocent
> people
> > > > The percentage of sick fucks in the world increases exponentially.
>
> > > Your ingornance in history and the mere attempt in even trying to
prove
> >> your point is really what is sickening.
> > >
> > Excuse the fuck out of me, but nowhere did I say anything about history.
>
> How can one comment on the world, and its trends, and the alleged
> exponential increase of "sick fucks" in the world--presumably over
> time--without acknowledging history? On -what- do you base your world
> knowledge? Engineering?
No, experience... troll, or should I say Johnny Lee...
I was talking about this therad anyway.
>
> > Furthermore, I do know my history, but engineering is my career, not
> > history. Regardless, I never said anything about history, but what I did
> say about
> > NOW is true.
>
> Technically, a percentage cannot continue to increase without a time
delta,
> so your perception of "NOW" cannot possibly make sense. But don't let
that
> hinder your thought process. After all, you're an engineer.
>
WTF ever.
Tom
"gatt" <ga...@juggFUerbot.com> wrote in message
>
> "Tom" <t...@nosleep.net> wrote in message news:3e1efa37$1...@nntp0.pdx.net...
>
> > Well yes, the world has become comfortable with killing innocent people
> for
> > the most part.
> > As long as it isn't anyone they know, they don't seem to care.
>
> > The percentage of sick fucks in the world increases exponentially.
>
> Which is technically impossible and, therefore, hyperbole.
Bullshit. Anything is possible, especuially that.
>
> I find it odd that people who think they know so much about modern warfare
> and how "sick" America is probably couldn't even identify the incendiary
> ingredient in napalm and don't understand the difference between precision
> bombing and, say, Dresden or Tokyo.
and who the fuck cares.
>
> As the percentage of sick fuck in the world increased exponentially, one
> looks back to peaceful days of old...hmm...the Romans. The Vikings, the
> Ottomans, orthe Crusades, or the inquisition, or the extermination of the
> Incas, Aztecs, the American indians. Slavery. Mustard gas, nerve gas.
>
> A "sick fuck" would have carpet bombed Baghdad into a giant sandpile ten
> years ago and wouldn't have to look at Hussein on TV again.
then you go right on ever there and take care of the problem...
>
> -c
>
>
lein
> wrote:
>
> He is a hero for sure. And also very naive. Army will follow orders
> and bomb no matter who is down there, just like he did himself in the
> first Gulf War.
> But it does show that people who were in real combat (unlike the
> chicken-hawks administration and some gung-ho posters on this board),
> understand that War is an abomination and crime against humanity.
> My hat off to this guy.
War is a bad thing, but certainly it's preferable to having
a world full of these
Graham Payne
gatt wrote:
> "Tom" <t...@nosleep.net> wrote in message news:3e1efa37$1...@nntp0.pdx.net...
>
> > Well yes, the world has become comfortable with killing innocent people
> for
> > the most part.
> > As long as it isn't anyone they know, they don't seem to care.
Don't confuse Americans with "The World", there are other countries you
know...Right now, only Tony "Lap Dog" Blair and Ariel "The Butcher" Sharon are
the only ones still in for Shrubbies war to impress Daddy. Maybe if King
George the first spent more time with his kids and less time overthrowing
democratically elected heads of state in other countries we wouldn't
initiating an unnecessary and brutal war on a poverty stricken nation. Face it
this "war" isn't about right or wrong, it's not about "weapons of mass
deflubbulation", it's about money, Shrubbies money.
>
>
> > The percentage of sick fucks in the world increases exponentially.
>
> Which is technically impossible and, therefore, hyperbole.
Opinion is the term your looking for....
>
>
> I find it odd that people who think they know so much about modern warfare
> and how "sick" America is probably couldn't even identify the incendiary
> ingredient in napalm
Phosphrous + Petro Jelly = Napalm, phosphrous ignites and burns in the
presence of oxygen, petro jelly sticks and frys the skin off. Another
technological advance for peace no doubt! Works great on children too.
> and don't understand the difference between precision
> bombing and, say, Dresden or Tokyo.
The term "Precision bombing" is an oxymoron, kind of like "Military
Intelligence" or "Marijuana Initiative". I think we figured this out after
wiping out the Chinese embassy in Yugoslavia, but they deserved it right?? How
could they have the sheer nerve to be Chinese??
>
>
> As the percentage of sick fuck in the world increased exponentially, one
> looks back to peaceful days of old...hmm...the Romans. The Vikings, the
> Ottomans, orthe Crusades, or the inquisition, or the extermination of the
> Incas, Aztecs, the American indians. Slavery. Mustard gas, nerve gas.
Yes, the human race has a lousy record, but doesn't it occur to anyone that
maybe we could learn something from the past, and try to improve ourselves
rather than wallowing in base neanderthal behavior. One would think that after
6,000 years we could have seen that wars don't decide anything, all they do is
destroy economies, kill innocent people (yes, even Iraqis could be considered
innocent). Who do think is going to take over from Saddam? Does anyone believe
that the Iraqi people would accept VonRumsfeld, or Asscruft for their leader
or any other Oil Executive for that matter?? The American Empire will spend
itself into bankruptcy trying to control the Iraqi population, they will never
establish order. Then 10 years from now, another Shrubbie or Reagan will
decide to do it all over again when they elect a new leader that they decide
they don't like.
>
>
> A "sick fuck" would have carpet bombed Baghdad into a giant sandpile ten
> years ago and wouldn't have to look at Hussein on TV again.
As I remember a 'sick fuck' brutally murdered thousands of Iraqi civilians,
but they deserved it right? How could they have the sheer impertinence to be
Iraqi?? and standing in their own homes, what a nerve of these people eh?
>
>
> -c
There are no winners in war, only losers...
-gp
Tom
We'll, you can bet I was wrong. NK is next on the list, right after Iraq.
Course, since they were on the Axis of evil list, it was just a matter of
time.
Bottom line is, the government starts leaking all this nes crap and
spreading propoganda like this the year before they go to war with anyone.
Happened the last several.
As far as the propoganda being true or not, I wouldn't trust what they say
or do for anything.
If it is true, then yes someone should help stop it, but the other issue is,
why do they keep hush all that shit until just before they want to wage war?
Propoganda either way.
"lein" <boomer_...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:885ec7ed.03011...@posting.google.com...
lein
> Oh great, here comes the NK propoganda.
> We'll, you can bet I was wrong. NK is next on the list, right after
> Iraq. Course, since they were on the Axis of evil list, it was just a
> matter of time.
> Bottom line is, the government starts leaking all this nes crap and
> spreading propoganda like this the year before they go to war with
> anyone. Happened the last several.
>
> As far as the propoganda being true or not, I wouldn't trust what they
> say or do for anything.
> If it is true, then yes someone should help stop it, but the other
> issue is, why do they keep hush all that shit until just before they
> want to wage war? Propoganda either way.
So the people in N.Korea are living fat, dumb, and happy. Thanks for
playing.
gatt
"Tom" <t...@nosleep.net> wrote in message news:3e264755$1...@nntp0.pdx.net...
> > > The percentage of sick fucks in the world increases exponentially.
> >
> > Which is technically impossible and, therefore, hyperbole.
>
> Bullshit. Anything is possible, especuially that.
I refuse to believe a competent engineer would say that.
> > I find it odd that people who think they know so much about modern
warfare
> > and how "sick" America is probably couldn't even identify the incendiary
> > ingredient in napalm and don't understand the difference between
precision
> > bombing and, say, Dresden or Tokyo.
>
> and who the fuck cares.
Right. You CHOOSE to remain ignorant and, therefore, clueless.
> > A "sick fuck" would have carpet bombed Baghdad into a giant sandpile ten
> > years ago and wouldn't have to look at Hussein on TV again.
>
> then you go right on ever there and take care of the problem...
I did my time in the Marines. You a Peace Corps vet?
-c
gatt
"Graham Payne" <gpa...@eli.net> wrote in message
news:3E27523F...@eli.net...
> > I find it odd that people who think they know so much about modern
warfare
> > and how "sick" America is probably couldn't even identify the incendiary
> > ingredient in napalm
>
> Phosphrous + Petro Jelly = Napalm, phosphrous ignites and burns in the
> presence of oxygen, petro jelly sticks and frys the skin off. Another
> technological advance for peace no doubt! Works great on children too.
America has become such exponentially sick fucks, according to Tom, that we
no longer use napalm or our chemical weapons. Thanks for making my point.
> > and don't understand the difference between precision
> > bombing and, say, Dresden or Tokyo.
>
> The term "Precision bombing" is an oxymoron, kind of like "Military
> Intelligence" or "Marijuana Initiative".
Those make great and totally useless bumper stickers, but that's about it.
If precision bombing is an oxymoron then perhaps you would prefer the
Hiroshima style of delivery rather than the precision Tomahawks and air
strikes of the Gulf War.
If "military intellegence" doesn't exist, then let's compare it to Electric
Lightwave, Inc. How's the stock doing lately, Graham? I can't seem to find
it on NASDAQ these days. Let me tell you as a former military intellectual
AND former ELI employee that, well, it would be more appropriate for the
Marines to sit around making smug jokes about how utterly and hideously
stupid ELI's decision makers have been.
Compare the SR-71 Blackbird to RSVP, Graham. Which suggests intelligence?
What about the Trident SSBN? A weapon so vastly complex and perfect that it
NEVER HAD TO BE USED. What has your company done of late that has been so
brilliant? Lay off a few hundred more people to save money?
Yeah...the US military lacks intelligence and should look elsewhere for
solid decision making. Like, um, the Telecom industry.
I mean, come on. You people need to think about what you're saying for a
minute. If "precision bombing" is an oxymoron, then what the hell? Let's
just revert to carpet bombing. Shit, the military "intelligence" you claim
is an oxymoron is still flying the same heavy bombers it flew in Vietnam.
It figured out how to break the speed of sound. It figured how split an
atom, how to keep thousands of people at sea on a single vessel for months
at a time.
The oxymoron "military intelligence", like the Enigma code breakers, stopped
people like Adolf Hitler from taking over the world and it defeated a
hostile superpower without every having to kill anyone.
What the hell did YOU do to end the cold war? You think the reason the
Soviet Union backed out of Cuba and never once attacked the United States is
because America is full of hippies? Are you for real?
This "military intelligence is an oxymoron" crap is tired and juvenile. I
was in the military. I saw what intelligence was, and in fact the lact
thereof. Then I worked in the corporate sector, worked as a musician and a
magazine editor. I tell you what, of all the people I've met between my
former employeer, the self-righteous "military intelligence is an oxymoron"
art culture in Oregon that I've been awash in for five years now, and the
intelligence that I saw displayed in the Marines, the civilian world is at
the bottom rung. Now as a musician I'm surrounded by all these high school
and college dropouts who try to eke by on minimum wage trying to hawk music
that nobody wants to hear to people who would rather sit home and watch
Buffy the Vampire Slayer. All of whom claim that the military lacks
intelligence.
Not many of them can identify Jefferson Davis but they know all about the
history of US oppression. 'Course if you challenge them and say "Well, I
was in the military and some of the brightest people I ever met. were there,
and you're totally full of crap", you're a war monger.
>I think we figured this out after wiping out the Chinese embassy in
Yugoslavia, but they deserved it >right?? How could they have the sheer
nerve to be Chinese??
Just imagine what a few dozen B-52s could have done to Yugoslavia instead.
It's a matter of perspective. Americans can watch one of its missiles fly
through a bunker door on television. And you say precision bombing is an
oxymoron. Well, hell, let's just flatten the whole city like what happened
to Tokyo and Berlin and dispense with all this laser guidance bullshit.
It's a waste of taxpayer money if we can just huck in a few hundred tons of
TNT hour after hour.
> Yes, the human race has a lousy record, but doesn't it occur to anyone
that
> maybe we could learn something from the past, and try to improve ourselves
> rather than wallowing in base neanderthal behavior.
You mean like not carpet bombing civilian cities until the firestorm sucks
the air out of the shelters as we did in WWII? Or are you suggesting that
we still rape and plunder and torture and exterminate?
Come on.
>One would think that after 6,000 years we could have seen that wars don't
decide anything,
War saved the jews and most of the world from an unimaginable doom. War won
our independence from England. War, according to liberal historians, ended
slavery in America.
Just stupid.
> Who do think is going to take over from Saddam?
Yeah 'cause ALL those diaperheads are evil, right? I mean you just KNOW
the next guy will be just as bad because ALL those Arabs are terrorists and
tyrants. Huh? Those stupid Iraqis clearly can't find a single benevolent
leader in all of their nation, can they? Duh? We all know they're all
crazy and evil, right?
> Does anyone believe that the Iraqi people would accept VonRumsfeld, or
Asscruft for their leader
> or any other Oil Executive for that matter?
A clueless minority of freaks, who have had not a single correct prediction
since before 1990, are the only people "believing" that oil executives are
going to be sent to Iraq to rule. I love hearing the left make its
holy-shit-we're-all-gonna-die-now assertions of what is fact when, since the
Reagan administration, they haven't gotten a damned thing right yet.
Meanwhile, ask a Ranger what he think of Clinton after Mogadishu.
? The American Empire will spend
> itself into bankruptcy trying to control the Iraqi population, they will
never
> establish order. Then 10 years from now, another Shrubbie or Reagan will
> decide to do it all over again when they elect a new leader that they
decide
> they don't like.
That's what they said in 1990. I still don't buy it.
> > A "sick fuck" would have carpet bombed Baghdad into a giant sandpile ten
> > years ago and wouldn't have to look at Hussein on TV again.
>
> As I remember a 'sick fuck' brutally murdered thousands of Iraqi
civilians,
> but they deserved it right?
You mean the Kurds? Hell no they didn't deserve it. Neither did the
Kuwaitis. I've seen pictures of Kuwaitis being dropped from a building in
Kuwait City by Iraqi soldiers for their amusement and spoken with the
refugee who took those pictures. 'Course, the clueless,
still-haven't-gotten-anything-right-since-the-Gulf-War blathering idiots
don't want to talk about that kind of thing because it flies in the face of
the "Blood for Oil" rhetoric. Do you drink bottled water too?
-c
Graham Payne
gatt wrote:
> "Graham Payne" <gpa...@eli.net> wrote in message
> news:3E27523F...@eli.net...
>
> > > I find it odd that people who think they know so much about modern
> warfare
> > > and how "sick" America is probably couldn't even identify the incendiary
> > > ingredient in napalm
> >
> > Phosphrous + Petro Jelly = Napalm, phosphrous ignites and burns in the
> > presence of oxygen, petro jelly sticks and frys the skin off. Another
> > technological advance for peace no doubt! Works great on children too.
>
> America has become such exponentially sick fucks, according to Tom, that we
> no longer use napalm or our chemical weapons. Thanks for making my point.
No we don't use them anymore, King George the I sold them all to Iraq!
>
>
> > > and don't understand the difference between precision
> > > bombing and, say, Dresden or Tokyo.
> >
> > The term "Precision bombing" is an oxymoron, kind of like "Military
> > Intelligence" or "Marijuana Initiative".
>
> Those make great and totally useless bumper stickers, but that's about it.
> If precision bombing is an oxymoron then perhaps you would prefer the
> Hiroshima style of delivery rather than the precision Tomahawks and air
> strikes of the Gulf War.
Bombing is by nature a wide range of damage, the WORDS are a contradiction in
terms like pin-point splattering
>
>
> If "military intellegence" doesn't exist, then let's compare it to Electric
> Lightwave, Inc. How's the stock doing lately, Graham? I can't seem to find
> it on NASDAQ these days. Let me tell you as a former military intellectual
> AND former ELI employee that, well, it would be more appropriate for the
> Marines to sit around making smug jokes about how utterly and hideously
> stupid ELI's decision makers have been.
WTF does my occupation have to do with it? Personally, I'm glad to have a job,
with a paycheck that doesn't bounce. The reason that ELIX doesn't exist anymore
is that we are now Frontier, and I don't know how the stock is fairing, I don't
care, I wouldn't invest anything in American corporations, they can't be
trusted, especially when Shrubbies buddies are running them.
>
>
> Compare the SR-71 Blackbird to RSVP, Graham. Which suggests intelligence?
> What about the Trident SSBN? A weapon so vastly complex and perfect that it
> NEVER HAD TO BE USED. What has your company done of late that has been so
> brilliant? Lay off a few hundred more people to save money?
Let me see here, how does a moderately profitable communications product compare
with an aircraft?? Better yet lets compare Shrubbies coke addled brain with, oh
I don't know, a rum truffle, okay, both small, often found cowering underground,
leave a bad taste in your mouth and very expensive.
Furthermore, the SR-71 took billions of taxpayer dollars to develop, RSVP was
developed by private venture.
>
>
> Yeah...the US military lacks intelligence and should look elsewhere for
> solid decision making. Like, um, the Telecom industry.
Maybe the military is intelligent, maybe the asshats who make their decisions
are to blame.
>
>
> I mean, come on. You people need to think about what you're saying for a
> minute. If "precision bombing" is an oxymoron, then what the hell? Let's
> just revert to carpet bombing. Shit, the military "intelligence" you claim
> is an oxymoron is still flying the same heavy bombers it flew in Vietnam.
> It figured out how to break the speed of sound. It figured how split an
> atom, how to keep thousands of people at sea on a single vessel for months
> at a time.
Actually, the atom was first discovered by scientists not soldiers, the military
complex just figured out how to kill people with it.
>
>
> The oxymoron "military intelligence", like the Enigma code breakers, stopped
> people like Adolf Hitler from taking over the world and it defeated a
> hostile superpower without every having to kill anyone.
It's been a loooooong time since WWII - maybe the shellshock isn't over yet, but
trust me it's over.
>
>
> What the hell did YOU do to end the cold war? You think the reason the
> Soviet Union backed out of Cuba and never once attacked the United States is
> because America is full of hippies? Are you for real?
I was a child of the cold war, I saw a small group of elitists who felt that
they had the right to destroy all of humanity. I fail to see how this is even
relevent, all I ever saw was a bunch of self-agrandizing sabre rattling. Maybe
if America had more hippies we wouldn't be attempting to ram American hegemony
up the arse of every country who doesn't kiss ass.
>
>
> This "military intelligence is an oxymoron" crap is tired and juvenile. I
> was in the military. I saw what intelligence was, and in fact the lact
> thereof. Then I worked in the corporate sector, worked as a musician and a
> magazine editor. I tell you what, of all the people I've met between my
> former employeer, the self-righteous "military intelligence is an oxymoron"
> art culture in Oregon that I've been awash in for five years now, and the
> intelligence that I saw displayed in the Marines, the civilian world is at
> the bottom rung. Now as a musician I'm surrounded by all these high school
> and college dropouts who try to eke by on minimum wage trying to hawk music
> that nobody wants to hear to people who would rather sit home and watch
> Buffy the Vampire Slayer. All of whom claim that the military lacks
> intelligence.
Well then, pick up your harmonium, tuba, zither and dulcimer and go play the old
folks home, or better yet maybe you could entertain the troops and be a real
"Patriot", hey maybe you could torture someone, you know, just for fun.
>
>
> Not many of them can identify Jefferson Davis but they know all about the
> history of US oppression. 'Course if you challenge them and say "Well, I
> was in the military and some of the brightest people I ever met. were there,
> and you're totally full of crap", you're a war monger.
No doubt there is intelligence in the military, but they exhibit it much.
>
>
> >I think we figured this out after wiping out the Chinese embassy in
> Yugoslavia, but they deserved it >right?? How could they have the sheer
> nerve to be Chinese??
>
> Just imagine what a few dozen B-52s could have done to Yugoslavia instead.
> It's a matter of perspective. Americans can watch one of its missiles fly
> through a bunker door on television. And you say precision bombing is an
> oxymoron. Well, hell, let's just flatten the whole city like what happened
> to Tokyo and Berlin and dispense with all this laser guidance bullshit.
> It's a waste of taxpayer money if we can just huck in a few hundred tons of
> TNT hour after hour.
Suggest that to Shrubbie, he'll be off to the mens room with the latest copy of
"Big Pointy Things that go Bang!" probably the comic book version and big
stiffy.
>
>
> > Yes, the human race has a lousy record, but doesn't it occur to anyone
> that
> > maybe we could learn something from the past, and try to improve ourselves
> > rather than wallowing in base neanderthal behavior.
>
> You mean like not carpet bombing civilian cities until the firestorm sucks
> the air out of the shelters as we did in WWII? Or are you suggesting that
> we still rape and plunder and torture and exterminate?
Here's a novel approach - Mind our own F'ing Business - seemed to work through
the 90's - But thank god that decade of peace and prosperity is over *sarcasm*.
>
>
> Come on.
>
> >One would think that after 6,000 years we could have seen that wars don't
> decide anything,
>
> War saved the jews and most of the world from an unimaginable doom. War won
> our independence from England. War, according to liberal historians, ended
> slavery in America.
Yes, but where is the reason for this one? Jews aren't in danger, England isn't
invading. Okay, so we got attacked, we've been doing it to them since 1949,
turnabout is fairplay after all.
>
>
> Just stupid.
Yes it is isn't it.
>
>
> > Who do think is going to take over from Saddam?
>
> Yeah 'cause ALL those diaperheads are evil, right? I mean you just KNOW
> the next guy will be just as bad because ALL those Arabs are terrorists and
> tyrants. Huh? Those stupid Iraqis clearly can't find a single benevolent
> leader in all of their nation, can they? Duh? We all know they're all
> crazy and evil, right?
Good and Bad are relative, and no not all Arabs are evil, 99% are hard working
people trying to feed their loved ones, just like you and me. But do really
think that Shrubbie and the Gang are going to let the Iraqi people choose their
next leader? Hell no! they're going to install another Shah or Hamid Karzai (Oil
Exec) to make sure that the US is pulling all the strings.
>
>
> > Does anyone believe that the Iraqi people would accept VonRumsfeld, or
> Asscruft for their leader
> > or any other Oil Executive for that matter?
>
> A clueless minority of freaks, who have had not a single correct prediction
> since before 1990, are the only people "believing" that oil executives are
> going to be sent to Iraq to rule.
Like Hamid Karzai in Afganistan - worked for Occidental Petroleum (at about 6.5
Million a year) a google search will bear this out.
> I love hearing the left make its
> holy-shit-we're-all-gonna-die-now assertions of what is fact when, since the
> Reagan administration, they haven't gotten a damned thing right yet.
> Meanwhile, ask a Ranger what he think of Clinton after Mogadishu.
>
> ? The American Empire will spend
> > itself into bankruptcy trying to control the Iraqi population, they will
> never
> > establish order. Then 10 years from now, another Shrubbie or Reagan will
> > decide to do it all over again when they elect a new leader that they
> decide
> > they don't like.
>
> That's what they said in 1990. I still don't buy it.
>
> > > A "sick fuck" would have carpet bombed Baghdad into a giant sandpile ten
> > > years ago and wouldn't have to look at Hussein on TV again.
> >
> > As I remember a 'sick fuck' brutally murdered thousands of Iraqi
> civilians,
> > but they deserved it right?
>
> You mean the Kurds? Hell no they didn't deserve it. Neither did the
> Kuwaitis. I've seen pictures of Kuwaitis being dropped from a building in
> Kuwait City by Iraqi soldiers for their amusement and spoken with the
> refugee who took those pictures. 'Course, the clueless,
> still-haven't-gotten-anything-right-since-the-Gulf-War blathering idiots
> don't want to talk about that kind of thing because it flies in the face of
> the "Blood for Oil" rhetoric. Do you drink bottled water too?
Kurds? No Iraqis killed by those "precision" bombs - nailed that Elementary
School with "precision". Speaking of the Kurds, wann guess who made the weapons
that Saddam killed them with?
And what about American soldiers who machine gunned surrendering Iraqi infantry
"for their amusement"?
Okay, then by that logic, we should have intervened elsewhere where human rights
WERE the issue, like Uganda? like Burundi? Oh but they don't have anything we
want to steal do they?
>
>
> -c
Gatt: Thanks for a stimulating discussion, I don't want you to get the
impression that I'm being disrespectful of your opinions, I appreciate the fact
that were willing to refute my arguements, and I find your discussion
enlightening and intelligent, and I know you don't play the harmonium, tuba,
zither or the dulcimer. Rock on...
-gp
Michael Powe
>> > A "sick fuck" would have carpet bombed Baghdad into a giant
>> sandpile ten > years ago and wouldn't have to look at Hussein
>> on TV again.
>> then you go right on ever there and take care of the problem...
gatt> I did my time in the Marines. You a Peace Corps vet?
mr. gatt may be the poster-boy for marine recruitment. but he hardly
makes the case for 'military intelligence.' my ex-father-in-law, who
served with patton in europe, described the war as a 'horrible'
experience and as one he had no desire to repeat. he also opined that
anyone who said otherwise was either a knave or a fool. beyond that,
he would not speak about it. a lifelong conservative republican from
eastern washington, he would probably regard gatt as a little 'pink'
just because he frivols away so much time in newsgroups.
some vets -- typically, 'armchair' marines who occupied camp chairs
behind the lines, or office chairs stateside, and fired off letters &
requisitions, instead of bullets -- glorify their roles as part of
that 'awesome' killing machine, the us armed forces.
people should be aware that this "kill 'em all and let god sort 'em
out" mentality is not reflective of all veterans. many, if not most,
of the veterans i have known who actually were in combat -- that's
right, who actually killed other human beings, while themselves in
mortal danger -- found it neither pleasurable nor praiseworthy. like
my former father-in-law, they did their duty, they came home and they
got on with their lives.
i used to work out with a 'peace corp vet' who taught grade school
math in mali for 2 years, in an impoverished village where he lived in
a dirt-floor hut & tried to help the kids learn enough 'rithmetic to
get a step up the economic ladder. to mr. gatt, he is an object of
contempt. why? because he tried to make the world a better place for
some who needed it most -- not by killing their parents, i.e.,
exercising 'military intelligence,' -- but by giving them tools to
lever themselves up out of the ditch.
frankly, i wonder: does mr. gatt have the requisite balls to go
in-country without his firearms, apc and satellite recon?
mp
--
Michael Powe Waterbury, CT USA
-------------------------------------------------------------------
"The most likely way for the world to be destroyed, most experts
agree, is by accident. That's where we come in. We're computer
professionals. We cause accidents."
-- Nathaniel Borenstein, inventor of MIME
Brian
> Kurds? No Iraqis killed by those "precision" bombs - nailed that
Elementary
> School with "precision". Speaking of the Kurds, wann guess who made the
weapons
> that Saddam killed them with?
Russia and France. Unless MiG's, Hinds, and Mirage's are somehow an American
export.
> And what about American soldiers who machine gunned surrendering Iraqi
infantry
> "for their amusement"?
And when prey tell did this happen?
gatt
"Michael Powe"
> >> then you go right on ever there and take care of the problem...
>
> gatt> I did my time in the Marines. You a Peace Corps vet?
>
> mr. gatt may be the poster-boy for marine recruitment. but he hardly
> makes the case for 'military intelligence.' my ex-father-in-law, who
> served with patton in europe, described the war as a 'horrible'
> experience and as one he had no desire to repeat. he also opined that
> anyone who said otherwise was either a knave or a fool. beyond that,
> he would not speak about it.
I'm not sure anybody here suggested that war was anything other than a
horrible experience.
I know and have felt how war sucks. My grandfather raised me, and he lived
a life of sickening, crippling pain and died from the long term effects of
the war, making my grandmother a two-time war widow. I first learned of
concentration camps, why Grandpa doesn't eat chicken, why we can't talk
about or watch TV shows showing dogs and how a machine gun knocks somebody
around and makes them dance, and what a gas chamber was, before I was ten
and, of course, I still didn't get it.
Who could? Would I want to?
I'm the host of the kriegies@topica .com Ex-POW discussion board and I was
raised by a disabled POW who survived being shot in the head. His wife a
war widow before they met. I've got her first husband's love letters,
telegrams, all the MIA telegrams and letters from teh 15th AF, the group
commander, the war department and all of the letters between the crew wives
when they were all still MIA. Have pictures of her at the funeral and the
flag that her first husband was buried under.
Unfortunately, a lot of those old guys and the guys at
heavyb...@topica.com are dying off. You get to know them and then they
pass on, which is really depressing but if they've gotten onto the internet
and want to shoot their feelings into the wind at somebody willing to
listen, that's what it's there for. A buddy of mine just published his novel
"Wing Ding" about his experience including getting a nut shot off in WWII.
He flew out from Hawaii to meet me one time when I was a volunteer for
Evergreen. We used to tour the vets and their families through the B-17.
Asked them questions, listened to their answers. One of them gave me his
original gunnery manual and a parachute.
But, look, war isn't about being comfortable, is it? We don't have wars
because they're fun. So what does whether or not it's horrible, which it
obviously is, have to do with anything other than being an anemic attempt to
attack my character?
And I'm not recruiting anybody for a war. I merely responded to his
suggested that I was all talk and no action by asking if he himself were the
same. My military days are over. If somebody would hire me, I'd gladly go
along with, say, the next Oregon National Guard unit as a reporter and unit
historian. Any guardsmen here? To whom would I talk? I'll go. (I'm
serious.)
a lifelong conservative republican from
> eastern washington, he would probably regard gatt as a little 'pink'
> just because he frivols away so much time in newsgroups.
-- that's
> right, who actually killed other human beings, while themselves in
> mortal danger -- found it neither pleasurable nor praiseworthy. like
> my former father-in-law, they did their duty,
I don't need to hear about your father in law. I don't accept your
belittlement of my service in the Marines by your suggestion that your
father-in-law was in a war and so you know what you're talking about.
> i used to work out with a 'peace corp vet' ... to mr. gatt, he is an
object of
> contempt. why?
Where did I say a Peace Corps vet is an object of contempt? On the
contrary, you are yet again clearly without understanding. In my opinion, a
global-minded individual who feels strongly about making the world a better
place belongs in the Peace Corps or something like it. The Peace Corps is
people who roll up their sleeves and do their part instead of sitting around
on a given night spweing clueless drivel and sniping people's characters on
the internet.
> frankly, i wonder: does mr. gatt have the requisite balls to go
> in-country without his firearms, apc and satellite recon?
My offer stands. If you can get me a gig with any Oregon National Guard
unit that might ship overseas for the Gulf War, I will go. You? Maybe we
could both go. And, if I went and war broke out, hell yeah I'd be afraid.
-c
gatt
> WTF does my occupation have to do with it? Personally, I'm glad to have a
job,
> with a paycheck that doesn't bounce. The reason that ELIX doesn't exist
anymore
> is that we are now Frontier, and I don't know how the stock is fairing, I
don't
> care,
FYI, ELIX was delisted. The people who made all the brilliant decisions that
destroyed the company, laying off many of its brightests minds, couldn't
keep business together enough to maintain a NASDAQ listing. That was a
great company. I'm not sure how much Sharkey was involved with its demise,
but you'll notice he left the company and bailed out right before the stock
plummeted.
>I wouldn't invest anything in American corporations, they can't be trusted,
especially when Shrubbies >buddies are running them.
ELIX's collapse happened during the Clinton administration. Stock peaked at
about $26/share in March of 2000 and was liquidated out last September at
about 65 cents a share. I don't blame the Clinton administration, btw.
> Maybe the military is intelligent, maybe the asshats who make their
decisions
> are to blame.
Precisely. Elected civilians. A classic example is the Marines: A recruit
was accidentally killed in a boxing ring at boot camp, Mommy wrote her
Congressman, who wrote the Commandant, and boxing was removed from the
hand-to-hand combat phase of boot camp. Ironically, boxing was one of the
safest elements of the training.
The only person in the administration that anybody respects is Colin Powell.
A retired General.
> > The oxymoron "military intelligence", like the Enigma code breakers,
stopped
> > people like Adolf Hitler from taking over the world and it defeated a
> > hostile superpower without every having to kill anyone.
>
> It's been a loooooong time since WWII - maybe the shellshock isn't over
yet, but
> trust me it's over.
No it's not, really. Not for my family and not for a lot of other families.
> I fail to see how this is even relevent, all I ever saw was a bunch of
self-agrandizing sabre rattling.
And the fall of the Berlin Wall. During the >Reagan< administration. That
still cracks me up.
> > Now as a musician I'm surrounded by all these high school
> > and college dropouts ... All of whom claim that the military lacks
> > intelligence.
>
> Well then, pick up your harmonium, tuba, zither and dulcimer and go play
the old
> folks home, or better yet maybe you could entertain the troops
Heh. I participated in a documentary film about P-38s in the bombing of
Berlin in March of 1944. A veteran of that mission who came out to the
airfield and that I met during the filming took me out for steak and
lobster. I've done quite a bit of hob-nobbing with the old folks.
>and be a real "Patriot", hey maybe you could torture someone, you know,
just for fun.
That's kind of ugly and unnecessary. I'm not advocating war, I'm not
advocating torture, and I'm not claiming that war is in any way fun.
> No doubt there is intelligence in the military, but they exhibit it much.
Exactly. ;>
> Suggest that to Shrubbie, he'll be off to the mens room with the latest
copy of
> "Big Pointy Things that go Bang!" probably the comic book version and big
> stiffy.
Since the woodcut-printed political cartoons penned by Charles Nast (for
whom the term "nasty" refers), characatures and cartoon images of political
opponents has been far easier for people to express their hostility toward
an opponent. A cartoon image requires less of a reader's mind than a
nongeometric and complex understanding of an issue which, unfortunately,
cartoons rarely convey.
Grasshoppa.
In any case, I'd say, try to avoid comic book level complexity of the most
powerful man in the world, especially if you dislike him.
> Here's a novel approach - Mind our own F'ing Business - seemed to work
through
> the 90's - But thank god that decade of peace and prosperity is over
*sarcasm*.
Except in Somalia. And Bosnia. And the tomahawks Clinton chucked at
Afghanistan and Iraq.
And the genocide the world witnessed in Rwanda.
Oh, yeah...that era of peace.
> > Those stupid Iraqis clearly can't find a single benevolent
> > leader in all of their nation, can they? Duh? We all know they're all
> > crazy and evil, right?
>
> Good and Bad are relative, and no not all Arabs are evil, 99% are hard
working
> people trying to feed their loved ones, just like you and me. But do
really
> think that Shrubbie and the Gang are going to let the Iraqi people choose
their
> next leader?
What about the United Nations? It's the UN, not the US, whose will is being
honored right now. "Shrub" wants a war, Hussein refused to allow inspectors
in his country, the UN resolved to inspect, and inspections are underway.
America is not attacking Iraq. Hussein is allowing them to search under
conditions set forth by the United Nations. Should you admit that the UN
is in control of the situation, or should you be pissed off at the whole
world instead of just Shrub?
If it wasn't for Shrubbie, the UN wouldn't be inspecting Iraq right now.
Clinton, you remember, lacked the spine, or brains, or attention, to help
the UN enforce inspections. Of course he threw a few cruise missiles at
them, and retained sanctions against them, didn't he? So it really wasn't
like he got anything done toward maintaining UN inspections or the
disarmament of a tyrant. He just killed a few Iraqis with cruise missiles.
But the Dubya haters don't want to talk about that, do they?
> Kurds? No Iraqis killed by those "precision" bombs - nailed that
Elementary
> School with "precision". Speaking of the Kurds, wann guess who made the
weapons
> that Saddam killed them with?
Gerber makes knives but if I stab you with one, is Gerber guilty?
> And what about American soldiers who machine gunned surrendering Iraqi
infantry
> "for their amusement"?
Where has this been documented? That's a pretty offensive suggestion
unless you can offer proof or at least credible testimony.
> Gatt: Thanks for a stimulating discussion, I don't want you to get the
> impression that I'm being disrespectful of your opinions, I appreciate the
fact
> that were willing to refute my arguements, and I find your discussion
> enlightening and intelligent, and I know you don't play the harmonium,
tuba,
> zither or the dulcimer. Rock on...
Same back. I play a mean zydeco washboard, though.
Peace,
-c
Johnny Lee
"Tom" <t...@nosleep.net> wrote in message news:3e23...@nntp0.pdx.net...