claw foot tub drain plumbing question

[chale4]

Hello, just joined this excellent group.

I have a small older (1926) rental house with a rough but functional
basement. The basement floor is concrete. There is a circular drain
in the floor in the existing 1/2 bathroom, located about 2' away from
the basement wall, and from the main vertical waste line for the whole
house which is located up against that wall. I'm pretty certain that
this floor drain is connected to the main waste line under the
concrete via a sanitary tee or similar fitting (there are no issues at
all with odor or anything, at any rate).

We want to install a claw foot tub in this bathroom; fits nicely in
the available space, no tile work to hassle with, etc., so seems like
a pretty good way to go in this old basement.

My question is this: is it sensible, legal, practical to basically
modify this floor drain's hardware and plumb the tub's drain pipe to
this floor drain? It's entirely possible to position the tub such
that its drain pipe is perfectly centered on the existing floor drain,
no problem. I had one guy come by to have a look at it, and he had
some fuzzy but concerning comments about how he thought some concrete
jack-hammering and cutting and such would be necessary...oh man! I
don't understand why it would necessarily need to be that heavily
modified...

I'd note that there is at least one other floor drain in the basement
(maybe a couple), so I'm not necessarily all that averse to "losing"
this one floor drain in the bathroom. Or, I could envision a "custom"
piece of hardware that both permitted tub draining, and floor
draining, simultaneously. I've got a home machine shop and can make
such things, if they're functional and sensible...

Thanks much for your time thinking about this deal!
Charley Hale
Lafayette CO

[ds...@webtv.net]

you could let the tub drain into the floor drain .if you tie in to
floor drain pipes youll need a trap to keep gass's out of the room.

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http://www.minibite.com/america/malone.htm

[ironmike]

Here's the scoop,

The easiest thing to do isn't a very good idea. That is to just
run the tub waste & overflow towards the floor drain, and then just
let it run indirectly into the top of the drain. The reason it's not
good is that if it's to be actually used as a bathtub, then hair,
soap, and scum will be spilling onto the floor. It'll be a stinky,
dirty mess after a while.
The right way to do it is to break up the floor (this really isn't
as hard as it seems), cut out the old floor drain and run new piping
and trap to the tub. At the same time, you'll have to provide some
sort of venting. There might be a vent pipe to tie into, assuming
there's a laundry tub in the basement. You could also sneak in a vent
check, but install it above the flood level rim of the highest fixture
in the basement.
You also should realize the diameter of those old tubs are 1 3/8"
instead of 1 1/2".
I've probably said just enough to confuse you, but it's not as
hard as it sounds.

[ken...@adelphia.net]

If its a floor drain it's already trapped and it should already be
legally vented, make a solid connection to it and be done with it. I
would consider some type of arrangement for future cleaning of the
line.

kenny b

[ironmike]

I know some don't, but most codes have different rules for floor drain
vents than other fixtures. How is it in your area?

[ken...@adelphia.net]

You say most codes have different rules, I don't agree with "most".
Some may be different under the newer codes which would be less
stringent as plumbing becomes dumbed down in our country mostly by a
new generation of idiots. But following the older codes that are the
foundation of modern plumbing as we know it will never steer you
wrong. Lets not forget codes are only mininum standards that we are
required to meet, nothing says you can't exceed them.

Could you give us an example of the different rules your talking
about.

kenny b

[ironmike]

>
> Could you give us an example of the different rules your talking
> about.
>
> kenny b

The UPC in Indiana (and the BOCA in MIchigan) back in the '70's simply
said that floor drains need not be vented. The justification, though
I think they were rationalizing, was to protect the trap from
evaporation.

How long can a trap arm be for a 2" drain? Doesn't the vent normally
have to extend vertically to six inches above the flood level rim of
the fixture that it serves? This is impossible for many floor drains
in basements and large garages. Aren't there allowances made for this
in your code?

[ironmike]

On May 15, 10:42 pm, ironmike <m...@comenserv.org> wrote:
> > Could you give us an example of the different rules your talking
> > about.
>
> > kenny b
>

I Googled "UPC floor drain venting, and got several hits. This one
explains the special considerations given for floor drains as opposed
to other plumbing fixtures "http://www.psdmagazine.com/ASPE_memberpdf/
Jul_Aug_03/70-71.pdf". The point is that while this is acceptable for
a floor drain, it'd be unacceptable for a bathtub.

I really do wish I had a copy of the UPC from 1974. I am totally
serious when it said "floor drains need not be vented."

[ken...@adelphia.net]

Mike the golden rule in all of plumbing is "trap seals shall be
protected". The DWV system is based on this concept. The design of a
DWV system is not only based on the plumbing code (although you could
but you would be limited in your design), the code only governs that
the min. standard is achieved.
Wouldn't life suck if everyone, everyday strived to just do the
minimum required to get by.

Well that’s where the plumbing field is headed, correction, it's
there already. At least here in Arizona and the South West, trust me
it's not Purdy, really sad. Lack of education, work ethic,
workmanship, nada.

Funny how this is all sponsored and accepted by the same people who
now write the plumbing codes. The contractors insist on quick fixes,
cheap labor and cheap material.

Hell nothing needs a vent anymore just slap one of these gismo's here
and there and you’re done. Anyone can do it, you don't even have to
speak English, and it comes with pictures.

The real plumber/ True Master is becoming a thing of the past, his
role has changed, he is no longer the guy who designs/ or has final
say over the young engineers who now know everything because it's been
dumb down to an easier level.
He now spends his time trying to explain to the young talented
engineer why his design will only work on paper and not in real life.
This will be valuable information the young engineer can use when it
becomes his turn to write the new codes.

I'm not bitter, just disgusted. I actually relocated down here a few
years ago to teach plumbing in the construction trades under a federal
grant. Turned out to be as popular as a Tim Horton's at a desert rest
stop.

kenny b

Oh by the way, 2" trap arm is 8' IPC, 5’.NPC

[ironmike]

On May 17, 3:16 am, kenn...@adelphia.net wrote:

>
> Mike the golden rule in all of plumbing is "trap seals shall be
> protected". The DWV system is based on this concept. The design of a
> DWV system is not only based on the plumbing code (although you could
> but you would be limited in your design), the code only governs that
> the min. standard is achieved.
> Wouldn't life suck if everyone, everyday strived to just do the
> minimum required to get by.

We are in agreement. I always understood that floor drains often fell
into a special category, since they're often located in the middle of
basements and garages where there are no walls close enough to vent
them in a normal way. Now that this fellow is going to make it a
bathtub drain, there will be a wall very close by. That's why the
original advice was to but a conventional vent in.