Bloatmage Prestige Class at 2nd Level?

[DavidC]

Tell me if I'm right on this.

If you take the typical Aasimar workaround for casting 3rd level arcane spells,
Take a wizard and thus get Spell Focus at level 1
Then take Bloatmage Initiate as your level one feat

Can you start taking Bloatmage at level 2? I can't see any reason why not...

Note Pathfinder OGC website lists these under Bloodmage, not Bloatmage.

[Todd S]

I think so...

http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qow

Spell-Like Abilities, Casting, and Prerequisites: Does a creature with a spell-like ability count as being able to cast that spell for the purpose of prerequisites or requirements?

Yes.
For example, the Dimensional Agility feat (Ultimate Combat) has "ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door" as a prerequisite; a barghest has dimension door as a spell-like ability, so the barghest meets the "able to cast dimension door prerequisite for that feat.

Edit 7/12/13: The design team is aware that the above answer means that certain races can gain access to some spellcaster prestige classes earlier than the default minimum (character level 6). Given that prestige classes are usually a sub-optimal character choice (especially for spellcasters), the design team is allowing this FAQ ruling for prestige classes. If there is in-play evidence that this ruling is creating characters that are too powerful, the design team may revisit whether or not to allow spell-like abilities to count for prestige class requirements.

—Pathfinder Design Team, 06/06/13

[Alexander Nudd]

Yeah I've seen people do this.

[Wolfspirit]

I was actually *just* looking at this combination.  I don't see a reason why not.

This is one of the few Prestige Classes I've seen that doesn't have a skill ranks requirements.

[Informed Opinion]

The more we do it, the faster they take it away.

[Jonathan Choy]

Ruled as 'by design'. One of the few ways to see a PrC capstone in PFS....

On Thu, Feb 13, 2014 at 8:54 AM, Informed Opinion <opinion...@gmail.com> wrote:

The more we do it, the faster they take it away.

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[Patrick Harris]

Yeah, but if we don't use it, it won't matter if they take it away. :)

On Thu, Feb 13, 2014 at 8:54 AM, Informed Opinion
<opinion...@gmail.com> wrote:

> The more we do it, the faster they take it away.
>

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[Informed Opinion]

Agreed.  I just see a day on the horizon when they see the interpretation of S-LAs fulfilling prerequisites in that manner as problematic, something they explicitly admit might become an issue, and they decide that it would be easier to remove Aasimars entirely — with or without Tielfings — than only tweak this particular ruling.  An **unbelievable** number of people will be upset by that change were it to come to pass!

[Brandon]

As much as I hate to say it, Aasimar and Tieflings probably should have been boon only races.  Especially Aasimar, as there's not many options an Aasimar can't do better.

[Ben Finger]

Perhaps the alternate class options for aasimars as a boon would of been best.  That way ppl can still get the celestial flavor but not the 101 benefits of mixed heritage classes.  It does feel like aasimar's and tiefling's dominate the scene now.

[DavidC]

I don't think this combo would work with any of the alternate racial heritages. When I looked them over it seemed none of them had a 3rd level spell as an innate ability.

[Joe Lai]

Yes, you have to be the original aasimar, since it's the only one that actually have a 3rd lvl spell.
Fun fact,
Bloodmage is the only class that's not banned that can forcebaly PVP.
Lvl 2, start the mod:  I blood, and I blood again.  oh.. oops I go in a homicide rage, PVP ! yeah~


DavidC於 2014年2月13日星期四UTC-5下午2時47分24秒寫道：

[Mike Pristave]

this is legit, you can actually use this method to get eldrich knight and mystic theurge etc early as well. 

[Jeremy Meredith]

Sorry if this is considered "hijacking" but I've been wondering what to use my Ifrit boon on.  A sorcerer/BloodMage looks kinda cool.  Has anyone done one?  How did it work out?

[Joe Lai]

Paizo really dropped ball on Ifrit being a sorcerer, more specifically fire themed sorcerer; not just Ifrit but any other elemental races also sucks at casting their race's elements.
Besides, that, I don't think you can fast qualify for bloodmage with ifrit in the first place, Ifrit's give either burning hands or enlarge person as their SLA,  bloodmage requires you to be able to cast 3rd lvl arcane spells.


Jeremy Meredith於 2014年2月14日星期五UTC-5上午12時04分35秒寫道：

[Under A Bleeding Sun]

I do wish they would give the "core" races early entry options.  It seems like more and more cool builds are forced to rely on an outsider race.

[Michael Riter]

I do want to test this though, so I'll make a request of the people I might use this character with in the future. That you somehow tolerate the cheese and provide feedback to see whether or not this is even worth doing. I'll say upfront that I will create an Aasimar Cleric 2/Sorc 1/MT 1 using only PFS allowed rules so that the results could be brought seen after a few levels. (Aasimar daylight SLA and the Fate Inquisition's Augury will be used to qualify) Will the loss of class features and slightly slower spell progression make up for the HEAVILY increased spell casting?

On Feb 14, 2014 12:10 PM, "Under A Bleeding Sun" <underabl...@gmail.com> wrote:

I do wish they would give the "core" races early entry options.  It seems like more and more cool builds are forced to rely on an outsider race.

--

[Patrick Harris]

I've actually got an oracle/sorcerer MT who uses the early access
rules; I put him together with some GM credit right after the ruling
went live. I haven't really seen him action, yet, but it seems like a
pretty solid idea on paper--it's spells all day and nothing else, but
I'm pretty good with that.

[David Bross]

I've got a level 10 mystic theurge wizard/cleric, which is pretty much a level 9 conjuration wizard with a bunch of utility cleric (level 8) stuff. I rather enjoy playing him because he has the right tool for just about anything.. Can't use any cleric spells with a save DC, but thats ok, there are plenty of good ones that don't have them. Theoretically If I ran out of wizard summons I could use cleric ones, but that hasn't come up past level 6 or so.

On Friday, February 14, 2014 1:05:43 PM UTC-8, Patrick Harris wrote:

I've actually got an oracle/sorcerer MT who uses the early access
rules; I put him together with some GM credit right after the ruling
went live.  I haven't really seen him action, yet, but it seems like a
pretty solid idea on paper--it's spells all day and nothing else, but
I'm pretty good with that.

On Fri, Feb 14, 2014 at 3:59 PM, Michael Riter <real...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I do want to test this though, so I'll make a request of the people I might
> use this character with in the future. That you somehow tolerate the cheese
> and provide feedback to see whether or not this is even worth doing. I'll
> say upfront that I will create an Aasimar Cleric 2/Sorc 1/MT 1 using only
> PFS allowed rules so that the results could be brought seen after a few
> levels. (Aasimar daylight SLA and the Fate Inquisition's Augury will be used
> to qualify) Will the loss of class features and slightly slower spell
> progression make up for the HEAVILY increased spell casting?
>
> On Feb 14, 2014 12:10 PM, "Under A Bleeding Sun"
> <underabl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I do wish they would give the "core" races early entry options.  It seems
>> like more and more cool builds are forced to rely on an outsider race.
>>
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[Under A Bleeding Sun]

I stated out an Oracle (Nature)/Sorcerer that used early entry on both classes(Oracles of nature get some kind of class feature that grants them divine, wood shape or something).  It seemed like it would work pretty cool.

But I ended up making a Sohei Monk 1/Sorcerer (Empyreal) 1/Eldritch Knight.  He's only played one real game the rest is GM credit but he seems pretty solid so far.  Needed enough PA for an amulet of mighty fist before I could play him, LOL!  I was considering taking Mystery Cultist at level 8, as it really fits flavor wise, but its a pretty decent hit in effectiveness too.

[Carlos Clements]

Hey Mike don't you mean inquistor 2/sorceror 1, mt 1? Isn't Fate Inquisition's Augury only for inquistors?

[Michael Eshleman]

Isn't Fate Inquisition's Augury only for inquistors?

Any class that gains a domain may take an available inquisition in place of their domain.

--
Michael Eshleman

[Michael Riter]

As Michael E. said, it just tends to be less effective. Then again I think the Empyreal Bloodline from the Sorc. level more than makes up for it.

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[Michael Riter]

As a matter Of fact... I hereby dub this character Minmaximus!

[Carlos Clements]

Ah ok I see what you mean:

 

 

While a cleric or

other domain-using class can select an inquisition in

place of a domain (if appropriate to the character’s deity),

inquisitions do not grant domain spell slots or domain

spells, and therefore are much weaker choices for those

classes.

So then you only get one Domain.

[Michael Eshleman]

Common wisdom is that it would only apply to your cleric spells, but I can't give you a quote which says so.

--
Michael Eshleman

[Carlos Clements]

You cant do the Aasimar combo way Michael Riter. The flaw is trying to use the SLA daylight for one of the qualifications.

Daylight is a 3rd level spell not a 2nd. You need to be able to cast a second level arcane and

second level divine spell.

There is a way to do this combo if you replace the SLA and take the Incorruptible alternate trait which lets you cast corruption resistance which is a level 2 spell and means losing the daylight spell once per day instead.(not much has changed)

 

I heard from someone I know these combos are being talked about at paizo.and they have been thinking about removing the spell like abilities to being used for qualifications to getting prestige clases early. When they do this those people with those characters would have to pay for retraining since they will be illegal but thats down the road and we don't know when this will happen.

[Carlos Clements]

Spell-Like Abilities, Casting, and Prerequisites: Does a creature with a spell-like ability count as being able to cast that spell for the purpose of prerequisites or requirements?

Yes.
For example, the Dimensional Agility feat (Ultimate Combat) has "ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door" as a prerequisite; a barghest has dimension door as a spell-like ability, so the barghest meets the "able to cast dimension door prerequisite for that feat.

Edit 7/12/13: The design team is aware that the above answer means that certain races can gain access to some spellcaster prestige classes earlier than the default minimum (character level 6). Given that prestige classes are usually a sub-optimal character choice (especially for spellcasters), the design team is allowing this FAQ ruling for prestige classes. If there is in-play evidence that this ruling is creating characters that are too powerful, the design team may revisit whether or not to allow spell-like abilities to count for prestige class requirements.

—Pathfinder Design Team, 06/06/13 Back to Top

I'm still going to make one because I've never played a prestige class and the Aasimar cleric 2/sorceror 1/mystic theurge 1 looks like it could be fun. lol add magical linage(magic missle)/toppling metamagic feat and you have a tripping spellcaster who can also heal.I see the losses balancing with the gains so I don't see this making people too op. I can think of other straight classes that are much more op then this combo. This combo looks like a cleric who can cast better offensive spells then normal but with the loss of losing his increases in channeling, spells from domain level progression and spells from bloodline level progression. Some people are saying the magus/eldritch knight combo is like having an arcane paladin. It's all about making characters that make the game fun to play and not just thinking about how you can make that character super over powered.

[Under A Bleeding Sun]

I hope they don't retcon it.  I thought this was terrible errata at first, but then when I examined which classes it actually affected, I realized it was good, as all of them (besides probably the bloatmage) are nearly unplayable without it, and many have been replaced by other classes.  If I loose my one Early Entry Eldritch Knight, I have 14 other PC's, so loosing one wouldn't be that bad, but I actually like this after looking into it.

[Michael Riter]

If I lose progress here, I will only have one playable character so it is a bit of a bigger deal for me. But even so, you are right. The Eldritch Knight vs the Magus, or the Mystic Theurge vs the oracle or witch... the optimized choice would nine times it of ten to be the pure class.

On Feb 18, 2014 2:22 PM, "Under A Bleeding Sun" <underabl...@gmail.com> wrote:

I hope they don't retcon it.  I thought this was terrible errata at first, but then when I examined which classes it actually affected, I realized it was good, as all of them (besides probably the bloatmage) are nearly unplayable without it, and many have been replaced by other classes.  If I loose my one Early Entry Eldritch Knight, I have 14 other PC's, so loosing one wouldn't be that bad, but I actually like this after looking into it.

--

[Under A Bleeding Sun]

Well, I'll keep my fingers crossed for your sake that they don't!

[Informed Opinion]

On Tuesday, February 18, 2014 6:04:25 AM UTC-5, Carlos Clements wrote:

I heard from someone I know these combos are being talked about at paizo.and they have been thinking about removing the spell like abilities to being used for qualifications to getting prestige classes early.  When they do this those people with those characters would have to pay for retraining since they will be illegal but that's down the road and we don't know when this will happen.

(Quote above includes snipping, typo editing and emphasis added by me.)

Assuming that this second-hand knowledge - to - rumor is actually based in fact and not an invention of someone's imagination, poor memory or an attempt to ruffle feathers (or worse)...

Given that these character builds weren't a problem until Paizo issued their own FAQ ruling on the matter, why on Earth are TPTB considering making any rollback, review or "retcon" an "at your own expense" nightmare?

This wasn't people intentionally going outside the lines of their own accord and contrary to RAW, FAQ or errata.  This was, at best, a flood of opportunism resulting from Paizo's liberal ruling.  So, if this issue does become something that needs to be addressed, why is it (allegedly) going to be handled in a punitive manner instead of a "our bad, we led you astray" manner?  Is this going to be the new normal, one that seems to scream "the customer is always wrong"?

I'm concerned about this trend, and I don't have a PFS character that would be affected by any such change.  (I *have* been investigating the potential and considering my future options.  I have a severe lack of low level PCs and need to build several soon!)

[Brian Lickey]

Carlos - I have no Doubt that this Option is being talked about and will very likely be made illegal in the future ... however assuming that PC would have to pay for Rebuilds is ridiculous 

on page 27 of the organized play guide 

If a feat or trait changes or is removed from the 

Additional Resources list: You have two options. First, 

you may either switch the old feat for an updated feat 

of the same name in another legal source (if available), 

ignoring any prerequisites of the new feat you do not 

meet. Alternatively, you may replace the feat entirely with 

another feat for which you meet all the prerequisites.

If a class, prestige class, or a class feature-dependent 

ability score is altered: You may rebuild your character to 

its current XP, maintaining the same equipment.

If a class or prestige class changes in such a way that 

you no longer have proficiency with a given weapon or 

armor type: You may sell back the affected equipment and 

only the affected equipment at full market value

If a class, prestige class, or a class feature-dependent 

ability score is altered: You may rebuild your character to 

its current XP, maintaining the same equipment.

If a class or prestige class changes in such a way that 

you no longer have proficiency with a given weapon or 

armor type: You may sell back the affected equipment and 

only the affected equipment at full market value

so no ... we most certainly will not have to pay for retraining if / when this comes to be 

--

[Mort Swishytail]

If they were to retcon slas qualifying for prcs to do it in a fair manner they should allow the complete rebuild of a character from lvl 1, including starting stats for free. Even so, a lot of flavor would be lost, and lots of people would be unhappy. I don't really approve of their current ruling, but rules being as they are atm, its legally correct to build your pc that way. I've had the opportunity to play with 1 such character(wiz/clr mt) and found him extremely versatile and effective. Even more so when you can never find a wizard or cleric locally...

[Jonathan Choy]

In all seriousness, why would they be looking at this, other than paying attention to it? 

What problem is it exposing?

[Brian Lickey]

same question goes for  FCB thing 

that one didn't become an issue untill the Hybridization of human + X came up 

and by the loks of it that one is gonna get messy

[Matt Haddix]

Inquisitions aren't legal, according to the additional resources list.

[Michael Eshleman]

Everything from Ultimate Magic is allowed except what is listed.  Inquisitions aren't listed, so they are legal.

-- 

Michael Eshleman

[Michael Riter]

Besides, a Cleric of Calistria gets the trickery domain which has mirror image as a SLA... and who doesn't love Calistria?

--