Slashing Grace Question

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DavidC

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Aug 18, 2014, 3:33:56 PM8/18/14
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From ACG:

Slashing Grace (Combat)
You can stab your enemies with your sword or another
slashing weapon.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus
with chosen weapon.
Benefit: Choose one kind of one-handed slashing
weapon (such as the longsword). When wielding your
chosen weapon one-handed, you can treat it as a
one-handed piercing melee weapon for all feats and
class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a
swashbuckler’s or a duelist’s precise strike) and you can
add your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength
modifier to that weapon’s damage. The weapon must be
one appropriate for your size.

How does this interact with Two-Weapon fighting? Do you only add 1/2 your Dex bonus to your off-handed weapon or the entire bonus? If only half is added, would the Double Slice feat allow you to add your full Dex?

Joe Jungers

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Aug 18, 2014, 3:39:32 PM8/18/14
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My thought is that you'd treat your Dex-based damage just like you'd treat damage derived from Str.
Off-hand => 1/2 [stat mod], unless you have Double Slice.


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Terry

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Aug 18, 2014, 4:11:59 PM8/18/14
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No idea - best to raise this question on the forums and maybe get it FAQ'd

DavidC

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Aug 18, 2014, 4:13:36 PM8/18/14
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Yeah, because things on the forums get FAQed all the time :)


On Monday, 18 August 2014 16:11:59 UTC-4, Terry T wrote:
No idea - best to raise this question on the forums and maybe get it FAQ'd
On 18 August 2014 20:39, Joe Jungers <joe.j...@gmail.com> wrote:
My thought is that you'd treat your Dex-based damage just like you'd treat damage derived from Str.
Off-hand => 1/2 [stat mod], unless you have Double Slice.
On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 3:33 PM, DavidC <lucian...@gmail.com> wrote:
From ACG:

Slashing Grace (Combat)
You can stab your enemies with your sword or another
slashing weapon.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus
with chosen weapon.
Benefit: Choose one kind of one-handed slashing
weapon (such as the longsword). When wielding your
chosen weapon one-handed, you can treat it as a
one-handed piercing melee weapon for all feats and
class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a
swashbuckler’s or a duelist’s precise strike) and you can
add your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength
modifier to that weapon’s damage. The weapon must be
one appropriate for your size.

How does this interact with Two-Weapon fighting? Do you only add 1/2 your Dex bonus to your off-handed weapon or the entire bonus? If only half is added, would the Double Slice feat allow you to add your full Dex?

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Brandon Cecil

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Aug 18, 2014, 4:43:56 PM8/18/14
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It's clear the intent is to replace one with the other, as it uses the verbiage "Dexterity modifier instead of strength" then all the same rules would apply, including power attack/offhand/double slice/etc.  That being said it does need FAQ/Errata.


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Matt Haddix

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Aug 18, 2014, 9:55:59 PM8/18/14
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So a swashbuckler can get his Dex to damage with a dwarven waraxe, bastard sword, or falcata, but not with a rapier or a dagger?  I don't think they thought this feat out.

David Silver

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Aug 18, 2014, 10:11:14 PM8/18/14
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Wait, what? You can apply strength to a rapier or dagger, just not power attack.

TriOmegaZero

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Aug 19, 2014, 12:59:39 AM8/19/14
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DavidC

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Aug 19, 2014, 1:42:11 PM8/19/14
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Technically, a dagger is S/P so it would work with a dagger.

Joe Jungers

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Aug 19, 2014, 1:46:37 PM8/19/14
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Well, technically a dagger is a light weapon, so it doesn't meet the "1-handed slashing weapon" requirement for SG.



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John Tomblin

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Aug 30, 2014, 1:25:33 AM8/30/14
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I looked into this and since you need a weapon that can be finessed but also has to be one-handed (not light, not two-handed) and of your size the only weapon it works with is the dueling sword. http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/sword-dueling

Sucks but an agile weapon works basically the same so I guess it's not a huge deal with regard to the dex bonus.

hayate shi

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Aug 30, 2014, 8:37:54 AM8/30/14
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Did they change it?  I don't remember it adding dex to dmg in the play test version.

Joe Jungers

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Aug 30, 2014, 9:36:23 AM8/30/14
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It did get changed in the final version.

Jason Buhlman mentioned that they felt that SG was just a bit too weak as it was.

Now requires Weapon Focus in addition to Weapon Finesse & Dex 13 & allows you to add you Dexterity mod to the damage in place of your Strength mod.





On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 8:37 AM, hayate shi <haya...@gmail.com> wrote:
Did they change it?  I don't remember it adding dex to dmg in the play test version.

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Josh Wilson

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Aug 30, 2014, 9:44:39 AM8/30/14
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For a fun trick to get dex to damage with weapons you're not supposed to, be a human and take the Martial Versatility feat along with Slashing Grace

DavidC

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Aug 30, 2014, 12:12:28 PM8/30/14
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John, where in the feat does it say you have to be able to use weapon finesse with the weapon you are using Slashing Grace with?

Terry

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Aug 30, 2014, 12:39:55 PM8/30/14
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Pre-requisites for Slashing Grace from the ACG : Dex 13, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus with
selected weapon


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Cyd

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Aug 30, 2014, 1:09:36 PM8/30/14
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Slashing Grace doesn't let you Finesse a weapon that you couldn't before, it's Slashing Grace + Swashbuckler's Finesse, that lets you Attack with your Dex.
If you took Slashing Grace with a bastard sword, but just have normal weapon finesse you would just get Dex to damage and still attack with Str.
A 1st level Swashbuckler takes Slashing Grace with a bastard sword, now he gets Dex to both Attack & Damage

Nathan S.

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Aug 30, 2014, 1:12:55 PM8/30/14
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The feat is made almost exclusively for Swashbucklers who get the Swashbuckler Finesse class feature that counts as Weapon Finesse for feat qualifying. Since it makes slashing weapons have piercing damage, a Swashbuckler can then use any 1 handed slashing weapon (whether or not it would normally qualify for Weapon Finesse) with their dexterity to attack and damage. This does not include a weapon such as the rapier, which is a piercing weapon, thus a separate feat is coming out in Advanced Class Origins, specifically for the rapier that does the same thing.


On Saturday, August 30, 2014 12:39:55 PM UTC-4, Terry T wrote:
Pre-requisites for Slashing Grace from the ACG : Dex 13, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus with
selected weapon
On 30 August 2014 17:12, DavidC <lucian...@gmail.com> wrote:
John, where in the feat does it say you have to be able to use weapon finesse with the weapon you are using Slashing Grace with?

On Saturday, 30 August 2014 01:25:33 UTC-4, John Tomblin wrote:
I looked into this and since you need a weapon that can be finessed but also has to be one-handed (not light, not two-handed) and of your size the only weapon it works with is the dueling sword. http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/sword-dueling

Sucks but an agile weapon works basically the same so I guess it's not a huge deal with regard to the dex bonus.

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Jason Buch

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Aug 30, 2014, 2:21:12 PM8/30/14
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Based strictly on the text of the feat, you only have to have Weapon Finesse for the prereq. You don't need to actually use Weapon Finesse with the one-handed slashing weapon that you are using Slashing Grace with. It's weird, and it doesn't make sense, and it's unlikely someone would create a build that used STR to hit and DEX for damage, but the feat makes it possible. It's a feat with a lot of problems that were the result of the designers tacking DEX to damage on so late in the process.

Personally, the feat will help make my Kapenia Dancer Magus work, since previously I couldn't get DEX to Damage with the Bladed Scarf and she was a bit of a lightweight when it comes to damage (it's a trip/disarm build). The Bladed Scarf doesn't even qualify for the Agile weapon enhancement, which requires a light weapon. But, Kapenia Dancer treats the Bladed Scarf as a one-handed weapon, it does slashing damage, and it's Finesseable, so Slashing Grace is the perfect fit for her, no levels of Swashbuckler needed.


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Josh Wilson

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Aug 31, 2014, 7:38:30 AM8/31/14
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It takes some feats to get into (probably not worth it) but it is also possible to get dex to damage with a lance as a Cavalier. Taking Weapon Focus (Sibat) and Slashing Grace (Sibat) and then taking the human feat Martial Versatility will open up the entire Spear weapon group to be used with Slashing Grace. The only specification that applies at that point is that you wield the weapon 1-handed to achieve the benefits, which a Cavalier can do with a lance while mounted.

Marty Weil

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Aug 31, 2014, 7:41:18 AM8/31/14
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Isn't the requirement "one-handed slashing weapon" not wielded one-handed? In that case, the lance, at least of the correct size, can never qualify, since it is always considered a two-handed weapon, even when wielded one-handed with a shield while mounted.


On Sun, Aug 31, 2014 at 4:38 AM, Josh Wilson <ramblingp...@gmail.com> wrote:
It takes some feats to get into (probably not worth it) but it is also possible to get dex to damage with a lance as a Cavalier. Taking Weapon Focus (Sibat) and Slashing Grace (Sibat) and then taking the human feat Martial Versatility will open up the entire Spear weapon group to be used with Slashing Grace. The only specification that applies at that point is that you wield the weapon 1-handed to achieve the benefits, which a Cavalier can do with a lance while mounted.

Chad Rechkemmer

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Aug 31, 2014, 8:55:10 AM8/31/14
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Plus it is only for slashing weapons.

Josh Wilson

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Aug 31, 2014, 9:05:45 AM8/31/14
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That is true for which weapon you can SELECT the feat for, however Martial Versatility bypasses that selection, allowing you to use any weapon within that weapon group. Read the feat carefully.

Josh Wilson

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Aug 31, 2014, 9:09:28 AM8/31/14
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Slashing Grace

"Benefit: Choose one kind of one-handed slashing weapon (such as the longsword)."

Martial Versatility
"Choose one combat feat you know that applies to a specific weapon (e.g., Weapon Focus). You can use that feat with any weapon within the same weapon group."

Josh Wilson

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Aug 31, 2014, 9:12:20 AM8/31/14
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After SELECTION with the feat, the only specification is:

"When wielding your chosen weapon one-handed, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing melee weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon"

And since you can apply it with any weapon in that group, it applies.

Marty Weil

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Aug 31, 2014, 10:12:54 AM8/31/14
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Any weapon in that group with which you have Weapon Focus.

So, two times to take Martial Versatility, once for Weapon Focus, which you would have to take before you could hope to get any use out of taking it for Slashing Grace, then again for Slashing Grace.

So, longsword, your weapon of choice, is in the Heavy Blades group:
Bastard sword, chakram, double chicken saber, double walking stick katana, elven curve blade, falcata, falchion, great terbutje, greatsword, katana, khopesh, longsword, nine-ring broadsword, nodachi, rhoka sword, sawtooth sabre, scimitar, scythe, seven-branched sword, shotel, temple sword, terbutje, and two-bladed sword

In the cases below where EWP is listed, that would also be required to allow Weapon Focus to apply to that weapon, even with Martial Versatility.
Any cases for using a small two-handed weapon to make it one-handed run into the part of Slashing Grace that says, "The weapon must be one appropriate for your size." That means a Medium sized weapon for a Medium sized wielder.

Bastard sword would require yet another feat, EWP, since Slashing Grace requires it be wielded one-handed.
Chakram looks to be no advantage over the longsword, other than allowing you to throw it away...
Double chicken saber lowers base damage, adds the keyword disarm. Meh.
Double walking stick katana is a double weapon, which means the options are to wield it in two hands for an attack from each end, or wield it as a two-handed weapon. Neither method would work with Slashing Grace. Other than the feat/class ability for the quarterstaff, I don't know of any way to wield a double weapon in one hand.
Elven curve blade is a two-handed weapon.
Falcata requires EWP to use.
Falchion is a two-handed weapon.
Great terbutje requires EWP to use.
Greatsword is a two-handed weapon.
Katana requires EWP to use.
Khopesh requires EWP to use.
Longsword is where we started...
Nine-ring broadsword is actually workable, if you want to give up 19-20 for x3.
Nodachi is a two-handed weapon.
Rhoka sword requires EWP to use.
Sawtooth sabre requires EWP to use.
Scimitar works, but it would work as the original chosen weapon, too.
Scythe is a two-handed weapon.
Seven-branched sword is a two-handed weapon that requires EWP to use.
Shotel requires EWP to use.
Temple sword requires EWP to use.
Terbutje would also qualify, but it is fragile, and could be chosen at the start, without all the hoopla.
Two-bladed sword is a double weapon, and listed as a two-handed weapon.

A lot of feats for very little gain, IMO.



Josh Wilson

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Aug 31, 2014, 10:25:51 AM8/31/14
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You would not need Weapon Focus with the whole weapon group. Weapon focus is only a prerequisite for obtaining the feat, not for making it function.

As I said, it's not the most practical thing, but the important part is that you /can/.

Marty Weil

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Aug 31, 2014, 10:32:11 AM8/31/14
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Really? Expect table variation, since Slashing Grace requires Weapon Focus to apply to the chosen weapon, expect GMs to require you to actually have Weapon Focus with any weapon you want to try using Slashing Grace with.

Now, you may read the feat differently, and maybe D20PFSRD has the feat incorrectly posted, but it sure looks like Weapon Focus is required for the weapon to be considered chosen,

Slashing Grace (Combat)

You can stab your enemies with your sword or another slashing weapon.

Prerequisite(s)Dex 13, Weapon FinesseWeapon Focus with chosen weapon.

Benefit: Choose one kind of one-handed slashing weapon (such as the longsword). When wielding your chosen weapon one-handed, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing melee weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a swashbuckler's or a duelist's precise strike) and you can add yourDexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to that weapon's damage. The weapon must be one appropriate for your size.



On Sun, Aug 31, 2014 at 7:25 AM, Josh Wilson <ramblingp...@gmail.com> wrote:
You would not need Weapon Focus with the whole weapon group. Weapon focus is only a prerequisite for obtaining the feat, not for making it function.

As I said, it's not the most practical thing, but the important part is that you /can/.

Josh Wilson

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Aug 31, 2014, 10:44:29 AM8/31/14
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Again, that is a prerequisite for obtaining Slashing Grace. You can't take WF (Longsword) and use it to fulfill the prerequisite of Slashing Grace (Whip). The "chosen weapon" is defined by what you choose with Slashing Grace, not with Weapon Focus. Weapon Focus only limits you as far as you need it as a prerequisite.

Let's shift to an example. Let's say a hypothetical class granted you Slashing Grace as a bonus feat without needing to meet the prerequisites. Can you not use it because you never took or needed Weapon Focus? Of course you can use it! This is because the weapon is chosen by Slashing Grace, not Weapon Focus, which is ONLY a prerequisite for /obtaining/ the feat.

Marty Weil

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Aug 31, 2014, 10:50:08 AM8/31/14
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No, because it is a bonus feat, which the class grants, just like an archer ranger can use Precise Shot without having Point Blank Shot.

Now, if the feat as posted by D20PFSRD is wrong, then I would have to see the real feat, but the feat, as I copied it previously, says "When wielding your chosen weapon one-handed," And it uses the Weapon Focus feat to determine your chosen weapon: " Choose one kind of one-handed slashing weapon (such as the longsword)." and "Weapon Focus with chosen weapon."

No weapon focus with a weapon? It CANNOT be the chosen weapon. Unless you can somehow say that the rules text isn't the rules text.



On Sun, Aug 31, 2014 at 7:44 AM, Josh Wilson <ramblingp...@gmail.com> wrote:
Again, that is a prerequisite for obtaining Slashing Grace. You can't take WF (Longsword) and use it to fulfill the prerequisite of Slashing Grace (Whip). The "chosen weapon" is defined by what you choose with Slashing Grace, not with Weapon Focus. Weapon Focus only limits you as far as you need it as a prerequisite.

Let's shift to an example. Let's say a hypothetical class granted you Slashing Grace as a bonus feat without needing to meet the prerequisites. Can you not use it because you never took or needed Weapon Focus? Of course you can use it! This is because the weapon is chosen by Slashing Grace, not Weapon Focus, which is ONLY a prerequisite for /obtaining/ the feat.

Josh Wilson

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Aug 31, 2014, 10:57:09 AM8/31/14
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Again, that is a prerequisite for obtaining the feat. You're trying to tie in prerequisites to the functionality, which prerequisites do not do. "Weapon Focus with the chosen weapon" means the weapon chosen by Slashing Grace, not the weapon chosen by Weapon Focus. It is only a prerequisite. If the rules text stated that you need to have Weapon Focus with the weapon, you would be correct, however they do not.

Josh Wilson

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Aug 31, 2014, 11:01:55 AM8/31/14
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In shorter, simpler terms:
You have to have Weapon Focus to OBTAIN Slashing Grace, but you do not need it to USE Slashing Grace.

Marty Weil

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Aug 31, 2014, 11:07:40 AM8/31/14
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Actually, they do. Please. reread the feat as I posted it, and let me know if that is not what was printed. If it IS, then consider the following part of the RULES TEXT:
"When wielding your chosen weapon one-handed, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing melee weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon"

Chosen weapon. Chosen weapon, in the feat, is defined in the prerequisites as the weapon in which you have Weapon Focus.

As another counterpoint, just to point out something else you missed:
Suppose you have Weapon Focus with Longsword, then take Martial Versatility on your Weapon Focus, which, nominally, gives you Weapon Focus with all weapons in the Heavy Blades group. With me, so far?

Now, does that allow you to use the benefits of Weapon Focus with the katana, if you are not proficient with the katana?

Remember that Weapon Focus, in order to take the feat, requires you to be proficient with the weapon chosen.

In shorter, simpler terms:
Weapon Focus defines what weapon is chosen; the feat only gives its benefits to the chosen weapon.



On Sun, Aug 31, 2014 at 7:57 AM, Josh Wilson <ramblingp...@gmail.com> wrote:
Again, that is a prerequisite for obtaining the feat. You're trying to tie in prerequisites to the functionality, which prerequisites do not do. "Weapon Focus with the chosen weapon" means the weapon chosen by Slashing Grace, not the weapon chosen by Weapon Focus. It is only a prerequisite. If the rules text stated that you need to have Weapon Focus with the weapon, you would be correct, however they do not.

Josh Wilson

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Aug 31, 2014, 11:17:20 AM8/31/14
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You are wrong.

By your ruling, my bonus feat example would not be able to benefit from Slashing Grace as a bonus feat, because a weapon was never chosen by weapon focus. But considering that the weapon is chosen by Slashing Grace and NOT weapon focus, you are wrong.

And actually, yes, you can have Weapon Focus, and by extension Slashing Grace, without even being proficient with the weapon, thanks to Martial Versatility.

Josh Wilson

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Aug 31, 2014, 11:19:35 AM8/31/14
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"Benefit: Choose one kind of one-handed slashing weapon (such as the longsword)."

This is, right here, the part of the feat that even SAYS you choose the weapon with Slashing Grace.
"Choose one"
"Chosen weapon"

Marty Weil

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Aug 31, 2014, 11:22:51 AM8/31/14
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Actually, as a bonus class feat, it would also specify what weapon it applied to. Something like a deity's preferred weapon, for example.

And, as you have now shown, we cannot reach any sort of fundamental agreement, since you now also insist that you can get Weapon Focus with a weapon you are not proficient in.

Note: To be able to be chosen as the chosen weapon, you must have Weapon Focus in the weapon, as that is a prerequisite for the weapon to be chosen.

As I said, we must disagree, as you are using non-existent rules to change written rules.


Josh Wilson

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Aug 31, 2014, 11:28:11 AM8/31/14
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I feel bad for anyone who plays at your tables with such a poor interpretation of the rules as written.

If you can bypass the prerequisites, then the prerequisites are irrelevant. If you have Weapon Focus (Longsword), then take Martial Versatility, you would gain the benefits of Weapon Focus for all heavy blades, even ones you are not proficient in. Is it dumb and impractical? Absolutely. Can it be done? Yes.

Josh Wilson

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Aug 31, 2014, 11:35:31 AM8/31/14
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Sorry, that comment was in poor taste and uncalled for. I'm just frustrated because you don't seem to understand how prerequisites work, and how Martial Versatility gives not a single care about prerequisites.

Marty Weil

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Aug 31, 2014, 11:45:23 AM8/31/14
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Actually, Martial Versatility doesn't, as you said. But Weapon Focus is, in my example, what is being applied, and, as the feat being applied, its prerequisites would still apply.

And, if you look, you will see that the prerequisites for using Slashing Grace with a weapon is that it be defined as chosen. The only definition for chosen in the feat is that it have Weapon Focus.

You can try to use it with a weapon you don't have Weapon Focus in, but then it fails the test for use, that the weapon be chosen.

Weapon Focus (Combat)

Choose one type of weapon. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple (or ray, if you are a spellcaster) as your weapon for the purposes of this feat.

Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected weapon, base attack bonus +1.

Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus on all attack rolls you make using the selected weapon.

Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.


Martial Versatility (Combat)

You further broaden your study of weapons to encompass multiple similar weapons.

Prerequisites: Fighter level 4th, human.

Benefit: Choose one combat feat you know that applies to a specific weapon (e.g., Weapon Focus). You can use that feat with any weapon within the same weapon group.

Special: You may take this feat more than once. Each time it applies to a different feat.


I don't see where MV says you can use it on a weapon you are not proficient with. You are applying Weapon Focus to a group of weapons, but, per Weapon Focus, it can only be applied to weapons with which you are proficient. All it does is change the target from "one type of weapon" to "one weapon group". If the specific weapon type doesn't qualify for Weapon Focus, it wouldn't qualify for the MV version.

Josh Wilson

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Aug 31, 2014, 11:59:15 AM8/31/14
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Incorrect. Again, you are mixing prerequisites into the functionality of the feats which are not what prerequisites are. You have to have proficiency before you can take Weapon Focus as a feat, but you do not need proficiency to actually use Weapon Focus. Prerequisites and Rules Text are two completely different totally separate things. Nowhere in Weapon Focus' Rules Text does it say you have to be proficient. Proficiency is ONLY a prerequisite to OBTAIN the feat.

Jonathan Choy

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Aug 31, 2014, 12:08:37 PM8/31/14
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Are you neglecting the rule which covers all feats that states if you do not satisfy the prereq at the time the feat doesn't work?

Example: str 11. Belt of str +2. Power attack.

Could that combination of bits power attack in an anti magic field?

On Aug 31, 2014 11:59 AM, "Josh Wilson" <ramblingp...@gmail.com> wrote:
Incorrect. Again, you are mixing prerequisites into the functionality of the feats which are not what prerequisites are. You have to have proficiency before you can take Weapon Focus as a feat, but you do not need proficiency to actually use Weapon Focus. Prerequisites and Rules Text are two completely different totally separate things. Nowhere in Weapon Focus' Rules Text does it say you have to be proficient. Proficiency is ONLY a prerequisite to OBTAIN the feat.

Marty Weil

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Aug 31, 2014, 12:19:23 PM8/31/14
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He's also setting up a bunch of very broken bits, like a 5th level Human Fighter with Weapon Focus (longsword), Weapon Specialization (Longsword) and Martial Versatility (Weapon Specialization (Longsword)), giving a +2 bonus on damage with all weapons in the Heavy Blades group, even ones he is not proficient with, nor has Weapon Focus with.

In short, ALL Martial Versatility does is change the feat it is applied to from applying to a single weapon type to, potentially, affecting all weapons in a weapon group. But you still need to meet all the other prerequisites of the modified feat.

Martial Versatility does NOT replace Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, or what-have-you, all it does is change the part of the feat affected which says "one weapon type" to "one weapon group", but the normal prerequisites of the original feat still apply.

Weapon Focus requires you to be proficient with a weapon to gain the benefit.
Weapon Specialization requires you to have Weapon Focus with a weapon to gain the benefit.
Slashing Grace requires you to have Weapon Focus in the chosen weapon for you to gain its benefits with said weapon.

Josh Wilson

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Aug 31, 2014, 12:32:12 PM8/31/14
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Ah, it would appear I've made a fool of myself on the internet. A standard occurrence, no bother. Seems as though I'm the one that needs to brush up, I had misplaced that rule, and was distracted by the wrong application of "chosen weapon".

The weapon is indeed still chosen by Slashing Grace, not Weapon Focus, regardless. But as per that rule, it definitely would not work. I was wrong, wronger than wrong, and I concede. Apologies for wasting your time, and a second apology for the attack on your character.

Regardless, it is still possible, it's just one more feat than I thought.

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