Structural Changes to the Group

[Pathfinder Society Online Collective]

So there are a few technical things we can do within the Google Groups to address the general frustration going around right now.

1) For the moment I have changed the reply function.  Replies to a thread will be emailed only to the author.  This is temporary solution to cut down on people feeling that they are being spammed.  This change means that everyone who choses to access the group as an email list gets the first post of every new topic.  If you are interested in that topic, then you will want to follow the discussion by accessing the forum page so that you can see all of the posts.  This is a temporary measure- and I'm sure some of you will hate it, but it gives you notice when a new game is on offer and removes nearly all other traffic to your inbox.

2) In the next day or two I will divide the group into categories and add the ability for you to include tags in your topic headers.  

For example- 

One category will only be actively recruiting tables with a GM, day, time, and scenario selected.  Essentially, the way this group originally ran.

Another category will be LFG.  Here people can gather into the dozens and plead for last minute GMs.

A third might be general discussion.

I am looking into this at the moment, but I believe it will allow the individual users a little more control over what content from the group is emailed to them.  In the meantime please be civil and understand that we will be removing posting privileges if you are not.  That has never been necessary before, but the recent shift in tone is not acceptable and not welcoming to new players (and GMs) who are looking to join our group.  With the addition of the Society Online forum on Paizo you can expect many more people to filter and this situation is not representative of the history of this group or where we want it to be headed in the future.  

-Ithuriel

[Cronge]

Thank you so very much!

[Robert BUnn]

Which means I leave...  I don't want this stuff going to my email...

Which is the point I've been making the entire time...

I only read the forum.. I don't have the email option on and they

could end that issue by turning it off and skimming the forums for

topics they want to interact with instead of moaning and  bitching

about all the email...

I'll still offer up games but through our Warhorn only...

No more I'm bored lets offer a table for the masses...

You guys just lost a GM... and a few others will likely

go with me...  I can think of 3 others that will respond

the same way right now..

Rob

[Alexander Nudd]

If you have emails turned off you still won't get any emails Rob.

[Alexander Nudd]

This change doesn't effect people reading the google group at all, only the people that are complaining that their inbox was getting flooded. The change means that replies will be visible here, but won't send a seperate email to everyone that does get emails.

[Carlos Clements]

So let me get this straight. If you make a post on a thread it will email you any updates that are done on that thread only and not the other threads you haven't made any posts on? Does the filter system still work for turning off emails from threads so you don't get any updates or will it still send you updates to threads you have posted filter or no filter?

[Alexander Nudd]

This Filter system does NOTHING for the people that don't recieve emails from this group. If you have it set up to receive emails from postings, you will get an e-mail every time someone creates a new topic. That is it. If YOU create a topic, you will get an email with every reply to the topic. That is my understanding at least.

[Alexander Nudd]

So if I made a thread called "X" Carlos, and you posted in it second, and Rob posted third. Everyone would get an email that I made a thread called "X". Then I would get an email from your post in my thread "X", and then I would get an email from Rob's post in my thread "X". The only email you will get Carlos is that I made thread "X", you will have to manually check the thread to see if any other posters said anything.

[Carlos Clements]

So is there a way for me to set it up so I only get email from threads I post in and not get email from all threads created as well? This would make it so I only got email from threads I'm interested in and not every tom, dick, and harry's thread that creates a new topic too.

[IronHelixx]

Indeed - When you post a reply to a thread make sure and check the box at the top that is titled "Email Updates to Me" and then any posts to that thread will be emailed to you.

It is basically an email "Opt-In" for that thread.

- Jesse

[Carlos Clements]

And that option will email me the update from just that thread I posted on only?

[IronHelixx]

That is correct

[Patrick Kilroy]

People have only been getting e-mails if they have subscribed to specific threads, or if they've subscribed to the entirety of the messageboard, which is a prompt when you first sign up.

[Robert BUnn]

All to appease a sprinkling of people who have too much say over this group.

Whose only real complaint is that its "active"...

Oh and Carlos, nice appeasement from you too... since your one of the ones

there complaining about...  Wave that white flag... 

We tried to help them... and its been thankless and pointless to everyone but

our players.

[Patrick Kilroy]

To be fair, I wouldn't want e-mails cluttering my inbox for things I wasn't even subscribed to, Robert.

[Pathfinder Society Online Collective]

To clarify, as Alexander said above absolutely nothing has changed if you choose to use this group like a web forum.  Later, when the categories are active the front page will have sections requiring you to make one more click to open the category you want to read.  There is really no inconvenience to you at all.

Being irritated that any change would be made to make life easier for a group of people who use this group differently than you is not helpful or welcome commentary.  You need to understand that two groups of people have a very different experience of this group based on what they see as its function.  There are nearly 1,200 members at this point.  Every time people create a thread some significant portion of the group receives every single post as an email on their phones, work computers, what have you.  Helping them to filter what goes directly to the inbox is not "appeasing" them.  It is a useful change that will impact far more people than the vocal few you are seeing here. 

 That said- as an email group we can only do so much by providing tools.  If you choose to use this group as an email list, then the burden is on you to take advantage of filtering tools to control the flow of content to your inbox- not on the entire community to only post about what you are interested in.  We will try to make things easier on you with some new options, but in the end it will be up to you to put those options to use.

-Ithuriel

[Carlos Clements]

I'm not appeasing anyone Robert. You misunderstood what was said in the original post. You don't get any email forced down your throat at all unless you go to the top and click the option to request email be sent from the thread you posted on to be sent to you. As for them making categories thats fine maybe we need categories so we can toss stuff out that we don't want to see or care about. By having the categories yuo can go to game postings, rules, etc etc and read what you want in there and not be bothered with having all the threads in a huge list to have to sort thru. As for receiving emails if someone doesn't want emails sent form here they need to go turn that option off. If you want to follow a thread then click get email from that thread only in the options above. As for me waving a white flag, I never do that unless its to hit someone with it.

[Kyle Washburn]

A great fix to a problem that was threatening the group.  Organization is key; all parties ought to be satisfied now.

On Saturday, August 17, 2013 4:24:38 PM UTC-4, Pathfinder Society Online Collective wrote:

[Ithuriel]

Categories and Tags are tentatively set up.  We will continue to work on them for the next few days as we see how they work.  With those active, I reverted the reply function to its original setting so that you get all email as you did before.  

Ideally I would set it up so that everyone gets the first post of each new thread by email (if you are signed up for email) and all the posts once you join a discussion.  I don't have that option on my end.  You can manually do this yourself by clicking the box when you reply, but only through the forum interface as far as I can tell.

This means that the burden is back on those who use this group as an email list to filter out what they don't want.  Explore the category function and let me know if it helps in cutting down the email that you don't want.  

Just to be clear- the categories and tags will do nothing on their own as far as your email.  You need to adjust your settings manually to take advantage of them.

-Ithuriel

[Carlos Clements]

Might want to add the categories on the left side also so we can click them easier then going way back up to the top to change to a different one.

[Matt Whitlow]

Also not listing threads in most recently updated order.

[Ithuriel]

I don't think that is an option.  Google Groups is essentially a very rigid template.  I can't do anything at all about the layout.  

It is time to trim the welcome message down to a paragraph though.  Then the categories will at least be visible at a glance on the front page.  Specific topics can then be stickied in the discussions category regarding VTTs and other things and linked from the welcome message.

I believe the ordering of posts is all jumbled right now because I had to go in and manually sort them to categories.  Certainly they are not all sorted, but I think I went back far enough to cover anything still active and going forward they will sort automatically.

[Robert Gogloza]

I don't hate this, but still don't see the point though.

[Eryk (shadywolf)]

Hi, somewhat new guy here... I guess I'm confused by the negativity and feel like I missed something in this thread? The only thing I'm seeing is that emails will only be sent if you either 1. check the box to receive them from a thread, or 2. if you are the poster of said thread, sparing my inbox from people talking back and forth... and then finally that three subgroups will make up the interior of this main group "Pathfinder Society Online Collective" making it more organized and I don't have to filter through the masses of pre-mades to find a pickup game that might be running? 

Joining this group with my wife was tough since a SELECT number of people were welcoming and understanding or even took notice of a new player (and you guys have been AWESOME btw, namely Lisa Richardson and Kaz). I don't see anything wrong if you want to keep your player base up by making it a little easier for new members to sort through the elite hardcore RPG geniuses to find some down to earth people that wont jump down my throat if I forget I had a -4 to an attack roll. As I have always felt, RPG communities are EXTREMELY difficult to join comfortably without knowing people who play. And if you want to keep a healthy community you have to incorporate and advertise to attract new players to build up the RPG even further and to enable more content to be created as funding and interest are garnered. And on a final note seeing negative comments also makes new players nervous and put off from future games with the source of the comment, especially when no constructive criticism is given to people who seem to really care about building the group up. 

Anyways just my 2 cents from a guy who just joined about a month or so ago, I have no sway this way or that, just loving the people and time spent doing something that can distract from a hard work day at the end of the day. 

[Sior]

From the mouth of newbies. Those who have been here longer forget how important it is to have, and maintain, a good first impression to bring people in. A sudden surge of emails as topics are added and replied to can be a bit shocking to those who opt to receive them, as can the near hundred new and updated threads that can crop up over the span of a couple days for those who use it sorely as a forum. (I checked the group once before Gen Con and not again till tonight. Imagine my surprise when I have to filter through all those bolded thread titles when used to be there were maybe a dozen recruitment threads updated over the course of a weekend).

Regardless, he has a point. I very nearly didn't start roleplaying at all because of a) the sheer amount of information to take in, and mostly b) the elitist view of those against newbies such as myself at the time. Smeg, even now I don't like asking questions for fear of the response it will garner.

We NEED to clean up our act here. Those who use this as a forum need to lay off those who use this as a mailing list, and those who use it as a mailing list need to back off those who use it as a forum. We're all ONE group, so drop your swords and act like it. Elsewise it may well kill this collective.

[Sior]

Oh, and Eryk. Never underestimate the power of a single voice in a crowd.

[Stephen Atwood]

Agreed.

Thank you, Eryk, for that very prompt crystalized view of these changes and how they can affect the group as a whole. I hope you and all players are able to feel welcomed and comfortable to ask any question that's needed.

BTW, I like the new look, Ithuriel. I loaded up the front page, saw a bunch of topics instead of a lot of text and thought I'd messed with my font size again.

[Carlos Clements]

It use to tell you if topics had been updated if you left the page open but now it doesn't.

[Michael Meunier]

There's only one problem I see as an e-mail user (who often CANT see the group as a forum because Groups is blocked at my job), we won't know when a game is full or not. Hence, by mitigating one problem, you're making it that much harder on the working gamer to get a game

Michael T. Meunier

"“The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams.”"
- Eleanor Roosevelt

On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 9:52 PM, Carlos Clements <poundp...@yahoo.com> wrote:

It use to tell you if topics had been updated if you left the page open but now it doesn't.

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[Carlos Clements]

So you are saying that me not being able to see the page get updated is stopping you from playing in tables and telling if they are full or not? Seriously you are actually blaming me for the table being full or not? You might want to blame all the other players who signed up to play before you did. If I was one of them I'm sorry I signed up before you but to blame me for the whole table being full is a harsh thing to say or to give me full credit for it.

[Ithuriel]

Calm down Carlos.  I'm pretty sure his comment had nothing to do with yours at all. 

If I understood, Michael's issue was with the first change I made where only the original poster would receive all posts to a thread as email.  I mentioned in that original post that it was temporary because I wanted to test and see if it was a useful solution until I had time to look into categories and tags.  I do realize that forcing you to access the forum to keep up with a thread is not useful to a lot of people so I changed it back yesterday.  The ability to get every single post sent to the group as an email is back to the original setting.

Originally I thought we could use both categories and tags, but it seems to be one or the other.  Tags seem more useful because you can mark a thread as multiple things like Recruiting, Tier 3-7, Roll20, etc and they are sortable by those tags.  We are experimenting a little here to find what is going to be the best solution.  Thoughts on the changes are welcome, but please be patient until we sort it out. 

What I could use some input on is how useful the tags are for setting up filters if you use the group as an email list.  Is it an improvement?

[Carlos Clements]

I thought it was meant toward me since my quote is listed at the bottom only in his comment.

[Phillip Rorrer]

A good change was making the tag Pathfinder not related to the Pathfinder group.....can we change this? 

On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 10:34 PM, Carlos Clements <poundp...@yahoo.com> wrote:

I thought it was meant toward me since my quote is listed at the bottom only in his comment.

--

[Ithuriel]

I don't entirely understand.  Could you explain a little more?  Currently the only tag that sort of contains the word Pathfinder is the "Non-PFS" one for games that are not part of the organized play system. Since the entire group is dedicated to Pathfinder I assume we don't need one for that.  We could have another tag for "Other Games" or something like that for use with all other game systems. 

[Steven Sior]

May I recommend a Tag for Roll20? Seems to be one for MapTools, Fantasy Grounds, and D20Pro, but not Roll20. Just a thought.

On Wed, Aug 21, 2013 at 9:06 AM, Ithuriel <devina...@yahoo.com> wrote:

I don't entirely understand.  Could you explain a little more?  Currently the only tag that sort of contains the word Pathfinder is the "Non-PFS" one for games that are not part of the organized play system. Since the entire group is dedicated to Pathfinder I assume we don't need one for that.  We could have another tag for "Other Games" or something like that for use with all other game systems. 

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[Ithuriel]

Done.  Weird, I thought I already had that one included, but I must have forgotten to save it.  Fixed now.

On Wednesday, August 21, 2013 6:08:10 PM UTC+3, Sior wrote:

May I recommend a Tag for Roll20? Seems to be one for MapTools, Fantasy Grounds, and D20Pro, but not Roll20. Just a thought.

On Wed, Aug 21, 2013 at 9:06 AM, Ithuriel <devina...@yahoo.com> wrote:

I don't entirely understand.  Could you explain a little more?  Currently the only tag that sort of contains the word Pathfinder is the "Non-PFS" one for games that are not part of the organized play system. Since the entire group is dedicated to Pathfinder I assume we don't need one for that.  We could have another tag for "Other Games" or something like that for use with all other game systems. 

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[Steven Sior]

Cheers!

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[Marc Ferguson]

Thank you for the adjustments.

On Wednesday, 21 August 2013 11:13:26 UTC-4, Sior wrote:

Cheers!

On Wed, Aug 21, 2013 at 9:12 AM, Ithuriel <devina...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Done.  Weird, I thought I already had that one included, but I must have forgotten to save it.  Fixed now.

On Wednesday, August 21, 2013 6:08:10 PM UTC+3, Sior wrote:

May I recommend a Tag for Roll20? Seems to be one for MapTools, Fantasy Grounds, and D20Pro, but not Roll20. Just a thought.

On Wed, Aug 21, 2013 at 9:06 AM, Ithuriel <devina...@yahoo.com> wrote:

I don't entirely understand.  Could you explain a little more?  Currently the only tag that sort of contains the word Pathfinder is the "Non-PFS" one for games that are not part of the organized play system. Since the entire group is dedicated to Pathfinder I assume we don't need one for that.  We could have another tag for "Other Games" or something like that for use with all other game systems. 

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[Pacho]

We need a tag that says if it is for Society or NOT society I think.  I am having a hard time finding the games that are for PFS because those are the only games that I play. I don't play the regular games.  At least not yet.

[Steven Sior]

As this is a PFS-centric group, it makes little sense to have a PFS tag. Unless there's a reason I'm not seeing. And I believe there is already a tag for non-PFS games. Just needs to be used more, perhaps?

Sior

On Sep 1, 2013 10:41 PM, "Pacho" <pachn...@gmail.com> wrote:

We need a tag that says if it is for Society or NOT society I think.  I am having a hard time finding the games that are for PFS because those are the only games that I play. I don't play the regular games.  At least not yet.

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[Robert Gogloza]

Once in a blue moon someone uses this group to offer a game that is not PFS, like Tomb of Horrors, for training purposes for example. I don't really think that's a thing, though.

On Monday, September 2, 2013 6:48:38 AM UTC+2, Sior wrote:

As this is a PFS-centric group, it makes little sense to have a PFS tag. Unless there's a reason I'm not seeing. And I believe there is already a tag for non-PFS games. Just needs to be used more, perhaps?

Sior

On Sep 1, 2013 10:41 PM, "Pacho" <pachn...@gmail.com> wrote:

We need a tag that says if it is for Society or NOT society I think.  I am having a hard time finding the games that are for PFS because those are the only games that I play. I don't play the regular games.  At least not yet.

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[craig testerd]

i think ive seen possibly five non pfs games in the last 3 weeks, two star wars, and the gm running tombs to practice gming.
the nonpfs flag should be plenty imho.

[Marty Weil]

There are actually four kinds of game, maybe five, that can be posted.

1) PFS games, including scenarios, older modules, and AP sections.

2) Mixed gaming conventions like VirtuaCon '13, which has both PFS and non-PFS games offered.

3) Home game mode APs and new modules for PFS credit.

4) Non-PFS games, Pathfinder or other system. This could be split into Pathfinder And non-Pathfinder games, if you wanted.

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[Sior]

There are actually four kinds of game, maybe five, that can be posted.
1) PFS games, including scenarios, older modules, and AP sections.

This is a PFS-oriented group. This should likely be a given and not require a tag, imho.

2) Mixed gaming conventions like VirtuaCon '13, which has both PFS and non-PFS games offered.

This is indeed a tricky one to tag. Though I'd think a clear title would eliminate the need for a tag (especially if it is indeed in part PFS)

3) Home game mode APs and new modules for PFS credit.

There are both Module and AP tags.

4) Non-PFS games, Pathfinder or other system. This could be split into Pathfinder And non-Pathfinder games, if you wanted.

And again, there is a tag for Non-PFS, as well as a tag I didn't see before for Other Games.

So again I'd wager that it's not so much that we need more tags, we just need to properly utilize the ones we have. If there is enough of a need that has been overlooked or one which arises, I'm sure more will be implemented.

[Informed Opinion]

Is there a way to filter using more than one tag?  I can't seem to figure out how to do that. Can it handle boolean AND, boolean OR, or a combination of both?

If the only way to filter is UNFILTERED or single-tag-at-a-time, then the system isn't very usable as is.  That in and of itself would be a good reason for a "PFS" tag, overwhelming default or not.

[Cronge]

Looks like this group will now need a Core tag.

[Iammars]

Excellent point. Added.

On Mon, Jan 26, 2015 at 8:00 PM, Cronge <fres...@juno.com> wrote:

Looks like this group will now need a Core tag.

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[Stephen W.]

Might not be bad to have an RPG tag, too, so a person can filter for non-core games.

On Tuesday, January 27, 2015 at 8:47:14 AM UTC-5, Iammars wrote:

Excellent point. Added.

On Mon, Jan 26, 2015 at 8:00 PM, Cronge <fres...@juno.com> wrote:

Looks like this group will now need a Core tag.

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