Secondary Success Conditions

[Iammars]

John Compton posted a blog on the Paizo site today about how Secondary Success Conditions will work. You know that second prestige point you've been getting for free for pre-Season 5 scenarios? That's coming to an end. Check out the details at this blog post: http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lfcy?Secondary-Success-Conditions

[Brandon]

I want to play and fail the secondary success condition for 5-513 please.

On Mon, Sep 30, 2013 at 9:45 PM, Iammars <iamm...@gmail.com> wrote:

John Compton posted a blog on the Paizo site today about how Secondary Success Conditions will work. You know that second prestige point you've been getting for free for pre-Season 5 scenarios? That's coming to an end. Check out the details at this blog post: http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lfcy?Secondary-Success-Conditions

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[Cronge]

Sweet! Just in time for my session this Friday...

[Sior]

Just in time for my session TOMORROW! Haha.

[Informed Opinion]

Your game starts at 9AM MDT?  The doc isn't available as of a few seconds ago, and I suspect it won't be until 9am PDT, at the earliest.

So, do you need it out before you start, or is it sufficient for it to be available when you finish? :P

[Iammars]

I would assume that it needs to be out before the game starts in order for it to be relevant.

On Tue, Oct 1, 2013 at 10:41 AM, Informed Opinion <opinion...@gmail.com> wrote:

Your game starts at 9AM MDT?  The doc isn't available as of a few seconds ago, and I suspect it won't be until 9am PDT, at the earliest.

So, do you need it out before you start, or is it sufficient for it to be available when you finish? :P

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[Shane Murphy]

Now available for download

[Mort Swishytail]

Are these secondary conditions supposed to be made known to the players at the start of the scenario or not?

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[Steven Sior]

I don't believe so. Otherwise Compton wouldn't have said something about not going through and reading it as it would spoil some scenarios. Better to just be a good Pathfinder and do the job well. If we start thinking like Pathfinders and not murder hobos, it shouldn't be too hard. 

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[Robert Gogloza]

No, they are things you do "above and beyond" the primary goal, without being aware you "had" to do it. So read at your own peril.

On Wednesday, October 2, 2013 4:26:58 AM UTC+2, Mort wrote:

Are these secondary conditions supposed to be made known to the players at the start of the scenario or not?

On Oct 2, 2013 8:38 AM, "Shane Murphy" <e.shane...@gmail.com> wrote:

Now available for download

On Monday, September 30, 2013 6:45:18 PM UTC-7, Iammars wrote:

John Compton posted a blog on the Paizo site today about how Secondary Success Conditions will work. You know that second prestige point you've been getting for free for pre-Season 5 scenarios? That's coming to an end. Check out the details at this blog post: http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lfcy?Secondary-Success-Conditions

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[Ben Finger]

Reading over the list fort he majority that I have played or gm'ed, they seem to be fairly simple to achieve as long as:

1.  Seek knowledge and//or protect knowledge
2.  Do not commit evil acts.
3.  Be merciful when possible
4.  Do good good deeds. 

It seems if you follow those 4 principles, you will almost always meet the criteria they have set forth for most of the contents.   Been then who are we?  We are Pathfinders not the Aspis Consortium.   We should be the good guys.  We should be the ones trying to preserve and gather information.   We are not some murdering hobos.  

[Mort Swishytail]

Most of my characters are in pfs for money and phat lewt. This really isn't going to go well.

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[Brandon]

Actually the document says the secondary conditions are supposed to be secret.

 the secondary success condition is not explicitly told to the players or PCs; each of the latter is intended to be realistically achievable by an attentive group despite being a “secret” objective

[Wolf]

They can still be loot focused.  However, they have to play the "game" of going along with what the PF Society seems to value, which apparently is the four criteria listed above, in order to get cred with the Society.  They don't have to like it, they just have to do it.  They can roll their eyes while rescuing orphans, etc.  "Blah blah yes, we are Society members, tell your friends."

 

On Tuesday, October 1, 2013 10:44:24 PM UTC-4, Mort wrote:

Most of my characters are in pfs for money and phat lewt. This really isn't going to go well.

On Oct 2, 2013 10:39 AM, "Ben Finger" <benjami...@gmail.com> wrote:

Reading over the list fort he majority that I have played or gm'ed, they seem to be fairly simple to achieve as long as:

1.  Seek knowledge and//or protect knowledge
2.  Do not commit evil acts.
3.  Be merciful when possible
4.  Do good good deeds. 

It seems if you follow those 4 principles, you will almost always meet the criteria they have set forth for most of the contents.   Been then who are we?  We are Pathfinders not the Aspis Consortium.   We should be the good guys.  We should be the ones trying to preserve and gather information.   We are not some murdering hobos.  

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[Rerednaw]

LOL we *FAILED* the secondary mission because we avoided combat and didn't slay everyone.  

My good-aligned character learned his lesson with his first season 5.  Now he won't give that kind of advice anymore and he plans to join the "real" murdering hob...er Pathfinder Society. 

:)

[Brian Curtis]

Why, that's crazy talk! (LOL)

 

I agree overall, but from what I've read so far some of them are a bit trickier. "Don't set off more than X traps" was one that jumped out at me--given how few rogues I see in groups, that's likely to tick off more than a few players, even those who AREN'T murderhobos.

[Sior]

This was posted by our local Venture Captain of the Rocky Mountain Lodge, and I thought it might be beneficial to post here as well:

I just want to reiterate from the past day what the Secondary Success Conditions mean for you all.

 

1) You will still have a faction and will need to choose a faction when you make a new character.  There are still 8 factions in Pathfinder Society and it's important that your character has a faction.  You may not get a slip of paper during the mission briefing stating that you have to find a whosit or whatsit but there are still faction missions written in the scenarios.

 

2) In Season 5 scenarios not all factions will have a faction mission.  It is important that you know what your faction's goal is for the season.  If you know what your faction's goal is, you will probably be able to figure out if you have a faction mission in the scenario or not.  Faction mission will not always be stated.

 

3) Secondary success conditions are not always implicitly stated.  As Jeff said in a previous post, a secondary mission might entail a choice - should you destroy the whatsit or should you bring it back to the Society - what would bring you more fame within the Society?  Or what would the Society prefer?  Sometimes, the secondary mission might also be something as easy as don't be a dick to an NPC.

 

4) With the lack of stated secondary missions and faction missions, it is more important than ever to pay attention at the table!  Don't be surprised if, because you didn't pay attention, you lose out on a prestige point or faction mission boon.   And please, please, please don't argue with the GM if he or she does not give you a prestige point or faction boon.  Remember, you are not supposed to get every prestige point or faction mission.

 

I think that Secondary Success Conditions and the new faction mission system will make things easier for everyone involved, certainly the GMs.  Please embrace the change, I know it's difficult right now, but in the long run I think it will make for a better game. 

Very much want to emphasize the "And please, please, please don't argue with the GM if he or she does not give you a prestige point or faction boon." Quite usually, we have a reason for that, though it may not seem obvious at the time.

Sior

[Mike Ma]

Oh I agree on the trickiness.  Since you don't know what you are supposed to do or not it gets pretty tough.  What you do to get the faction in one, fails in the next.  

In our case since our primary mission was rapid S&R, once we fulfilled that, it just didn't make sense for us to explore the entire rest of the dungeon especially as we our mission goal emphasized speed, stealth, and urgency.  

That combined with a single social check fail meant the only option was to slay everyone else, meaning take no prisoners and that included the innocent bystanders.  

Yeah I know, in Pathfinder no one is innocent.  :)

I envy the players with perfect prestige.  None of characters have that.  Up until now, I was getting 2 out of 3.  With Season 5, the best one is scoring one in 3. Fortunately I GM quite a bit so I'm getting about half overall.  

So totally used to not getting full fame. 

It's the price of being good after all. :)

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[Steven Sior]

I only have perfect prestige on one character. All the other 7 are either GM babies or have failed somewhere along the way. How that one got perfect is beyond me. Lvl 8, Character 1, never died (did lose an animal companion once), only played up 4 times in the career and GM credit 6 times, so I guess that's 2 levels worth right there... Maybe that's it? *shrug*

To be fair, though, a LOT of those faction missions would have been missed if others at the table weren't so ready to aid me in their completion. Same goes for a lot of my characters. So really for me the overall goals aren't going to change my prestige ratio any. It's now win or lose as a group rather than on an individual basis. I kinda like that.

[Brian Curtis]

Well, that's enough to be costing a lot of players prestige points right there! LOL. I foresee a lot of 1/2 awards and many angry arguments on the forum over how unreasonable it is to ask Pathfinder agents to be heroes.

On Wednesday, October 2, 2013 1:04:38 PM UTC-4, Sior wrote:

Sometimes, the secondary mission might also be something as easy as 'don't be a dick to an NPC.'

[Jonathan Choy]

Well, for 4 seasons, Pathfinder agents weren't described as being particularly heroic. Good by accident is VERY MUCH the theme present through seasons 0 through 3. 

That's not the vision that Creative had for the in-game Society, and it's not the vision that Mike wants for OrgPlay, so we're changing that. It's going to be an adjustment and there will be a LOT of problems for people who had embraced the un-hero aspects of earlier seasons.

But knowing that they want us to be heroes and are hotpatching the earlier seasons to get rid of the anti-heroic faction missions and (hopefully, haven't had a chance to read through the secondaries document yet) put the secondary prestige on missions more-often-good approaches will go a long, long way toward adjusting that aspect of the OrgPlay Society. 

Pure mercenary greed as motivator isn't going to play as well with that, and not-really-a-fit-for-the-in-world-Society is going to fare even more poorly.... and both of those strike me as good things in the long run.

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[Akeela Valerian]

+1

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[Steven Sior]

+1 +1

[Jonathan Choy]

(Note: I have no special insight into what Mike John and Mark are up to or are discussing with VO's. I just know what I see when I look at what Josh Frost crafted versus what I see from James Jacobs in the Tuesday night chats when we've talked about the in-world Society's presentation and how the OrgPlay program has poisoned it so far...)

I do find it interesting and rather cool that the EFFECT of the Secondary Success Conditions effort is to let Compton hotpatch the campaign into a more heroic mold. I'll be curious to see to what extent that is the practical effect of the SSC 'hotpatch'. 

[Cronge]

Gee, Pathfinders being Pathfinders?!? What a concept! I love it!

[Mike Ma]

I do like the party model as opposed to the 'you're on your own.' Granted in the past I helped finish far more other faction missions simply by having skills all over the place. Which was a warm fuzzy :)

GMing is a good way to bring your balance up.  I am happy when my total makes 50%. 

My only grouse really was being gimped for playing good and following the mission briefing.  

Plus envy reading about the PFS player with perfect prestige...at near or at retirement.  Wow.  

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[Ben Finger]

I am really really hoping this will help curve some the wanton evil acts we encounter in gameplay.  Very often we have people repeatedly wanting to murder those who have done nothing or are utterly helpless.  If people are actually encouraged to do good behavior, hopefully this will curve the arguments I have been encountering as of late as to why they want to kill maybe a helpless boy in some certain season five scenario or likewise.  I know we have rules about doing alignment change, but the steps seem to be a pain .   So I will do hope by encouraging people to act like proper pathfinders this will discourage some of this behavior. 

On Wed, Oct 2, 2013 at 3:43 PM, Cronge <fres...@juno.com> wrote:

Gee, Pathfinders being Pathfinders?!? What a concept! I love it!

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[Jonathan Choy]

The problem with the statement "act like proper pathfinders" is that there are four seasons of accomplishing faction missions as Good Pathfinder Agents that hasn't involved being characters with alignments anywhere near good - the so-called "muder hobo" model of morality has been more generally successful at what they've been asked to do... And 'succeeding at 100% of my faction missions' is the measure of how good our characters are at being Pathfinder Agents, right?

A proper pathfinder who is good aligned will in fact be comparatively or substantially handicapped in accomplishing things which the Society asks them to do, notably as recently as 4-00 Race for the Runecarved Key. This has been part of the problem James and the campaign staff have been dealing with the past couple of years, and the past year specifically. 

But by changing the focus to having the Society act not just as the lore wardens of Golarion, but also acting such that "Tomb Robbers" is the exception, rather than the rule, of the public perception of the Society, it goes a long way toward addressing the behaviors you're properly decrying.

Also, the number of times the "little girl must be the bad guy because the quantum mechanics book isn't her reading and she's in this neighborhood at night" trope gets played needs to be adjusted relative to the "the little girl needs rescuing because we're not evil" being played straight.... But there's apparently a threats-to-children bright line rule in the Paizo writing guidelines in the way of that.

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