Request: Development version of Pat with forms

[Jim Weisgram]

I'd like to try the version of Pat that supports ICS forms.

I have an exercise coming up for our city CERT team where I will hopefully be using pat to send ICS forms.

My alternative would be purchasing a Windows device, which I don't want to do.

>> Jim, KJ7DMV

[dre...@gmail.com]

I am guessing that you have some misunderstanding with how to use Pat.  I have been using pat to send and 

receive attached files for a long time.  Sending an ICS form as a pdf attachment is no different.  In fact, I just sent

one (ics form 206) using pat to my gmail address (see the attached received email).

Are you using the pat web GUI?  If not that you are missing the real beauty of using pat.  You can easily compose out going messages and simple add attached files.   The message with attachment goes to the Outbox.  From there you can use the GUI to connect and send the message via ardop winlink or use pat directly to connect.    I use the web gui to compose the outgoing message and then I use "Pat Auto Connect" from  "Pat-Menu" that Jason KM4ACK developed.   

The real beauty of the pat web gui is the ability to use the web interface on a different computer.  In fact, I just used my work desktop iMac browser to connect to my home (15 miles from work) raspberry pi running pat connected to my FT-891.  I would recommend one first start off using the gui on the local rig computer.  And even start off using the built pat telnet transport mode before using radio transmission. 

Here is how I use pat at home (i.e.  computers on the same wifi net):

My Yaesu FT-891 is connect to a raspberry pi4B.  The ham software was installed using Jason KM4ACK's Build-a-Pi scripts.  

Before starting pat check and/or change the "http_addr" value in the pat config file located at "~/.wl2k/config.jason".   

I have the following set:  "http_addr": "0.0.0.0:5000".    Then run "pat http" to start the pat http interface.  With this setting you 

can connect to pat gui on the computer running pat by opening a browser to the address "localhost:5000". And  Wa-lah you are on your way.

But from another computer on the same wifi network you just open open the pat computers address with 

the pat http port something like  "10.0.0.32:5000".    But to be more secure, I connect to the pat computer using an ssh tunnel so that the port is  connected securely to my other computer and then on the other computer's browser I just connect to "localhost:5000".   For example, on my macbook, I open a terminal and run "ssh -L 5000:localhost:5000  10.0.0.32" and then in Safari I open "localhost:5000".

This works well when both computers are on the same wifi network.   I am able to connect to my RASPPI at home from anywhere by using a dynamical DNS.  This is how I just used pat.   It is a little bit more complicated to set up, but still rather easy to do, and you only need to do it once.   The dynamical DNS service provide a dynamical IP address to my RASPPI on my home network.   Comcast may change the numerical IP of my home network, but dynamical DNS keeps updating the dynamic address pointing to the current home IP address.   For example, when I'm  away from home, on my macbook  make a ssh connection like before but now using my dynamic IP address:  "ssh -L 5000:localhost:5000 m...@dreuge.dynu.net".   This is similar to the way I run JS8Call remotely via vnc.  I create a ssh tunnel "ssh -L 5900:localhost:5900 m...@dreuge.dynu.net" and then in my vnc viewer I connect to "localhost".  The vnc viewer automatically uses the default 5900 port.

I hope some of this is helpful.

[Richard Morrisey]

So actually, sending an ICS form as a PDF attachment is not the same behavior in that Winlink Express users expect. If you use the newly developed features( not yet released) - you should see that there is a cli option --composeform in addition to --compose. What happens is that the field entries create an XML document that gets attached to the message along with the plaintext body. When received by the Winlink express user the XML field values get matched up with the html viewer / style sheet and rendered in a browser window. Moreover, the form should provided a entry field for the recipient to enter a reply in the same form progammatically.

You can probably get by in some venues/exercises by just adding a pdf attachment, but it is not the same thing as a forms exchange.

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[Jim Weisgram]

Thanks for following up, but I have no trouble sending attachments. 

However my sending PDFs over radio during a drill when many other operators are waiting to send their messages through one common gateway isn't really going to work. I really need to be sending small text files.

>> Jim

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[Chris Keller]

Hi Jim,

We're actively working to bring forms into Pat. I'll follow up with you directly to add you to our tester group.

Chris, K0SWE

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[Jim Weisgram]

Thank, I'm trying it out now. I assume I need to access the feature from the command line...

>> Jim Weisgram KJ7DMV

[jack.h...@gmail.com]

Chris,

The new version is on my Christmas list....  Can't wait for the release. I flub it every Winlink Wednesday when I have to send an ICS-213 form with my check-in. Luckily, that's only once a month. I can flub while waiting for your good work....

Best,

Jack

NG2E

[C. Matthew Curtin]

On Fri, Dec 4, 2020 at 12:52 PM dre...@gmail.com <dre...@gmail.com> wrote:

Sending an ICS form as a pdf attachment is no different. 

This seems a good time to observe that sending a form as a PDF is probably not ideal, and why efforts to implement "forms" are important. Population of a "form" is really a matter of software interpreting FORMATTED text and putting things in the right place. This is true of both Winlink and NBEMS (FLMSG).

Of course, people can do this also but automated efforts tend to make it easier for more people to do the job to an acceptable standard.

The reason it's a bad idea to transmit a PDF is because it has a huge amount of information for the rendering of the page. This is great for when you are working completely free-form and you need to be sure that the recipient sees what you meant to send. The whole point of using standard "forms" is that the transmission can be wildly abbreviated and still have the recipient see what the sender intended. The difference in time can be extraordinary, especially if you're working with slow transmission as is likely the case with HF.

I did a video on this topic after someone sent me a PDF form detailing the issue. https://youtu.be/vP0B_pDHjXY

--

C Matthew Curtin  Columbus Ohio USA

[Chris Keller]

Matthew, agreed. PDF is useful in some contexts, but transmitting them over radio is not as efficient as the XML format of native Winlink forms. If you need a PDF, it's better to generate that on the receiving end with "Print to file" or similar.

The work that Rainer, Martin and I are doing uses the standard Winlink XML forms and will be indistinguishable from RMS Express when we're done.

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[dre...@gmail.com]

I do see that value of transmitting the compresses xml data and having the rendering performed at the end station.   I just don't understand the need to implement this in Pat.  Rather than creating program bloat by building this into pat (same for Winlink Express), I would think it would be much better to have this capability externally.  Doing so allows for rapid development, innovation, and better productivity.  I would think that one program (or a suite)  that generates and view form form xml data and creates a file for attachment to any transmission program via Pat, Winlink Express, Airmail, telnet, or for any digital mode is a more logical path.  

I am really surprised that that these external utility does not yet exist.

[Chris Keller]

I see what you mean. Yeah, it makes sense architecturally to cordon off forms rendering and perhaps even have it done as a separate process. That would certainly fit the Unix philosophy of "doing one small thing really well" and composing small components together. It will take some additional thought and work, though.

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[Richard Morrisey]

As usual, here I come in to muddy the waters. I can definitely see both sides of the coin. 1) forms more efficient (especially since HF propagation can come and go). 2. In agreeing with dre ... attachments are more flexible and accessible, at least as it stands now.

Sending a form is really a means of compression, were all of the relevant data is extracted and transmitted. The "decoding" involves transmitting the appropriate "form code/version". This kind of process should be built into the protocol itself so that it can be implemented in any platform instead of being feature of a particular software implementation.

Off topic - but likewise for VARA.

But you know - it's just like the original email. SMTP was only for plaintext. Then came mime and people were stuffing everything down the pipes rather than simply forwarding a link referencing the source for later download. So IMO forms are the way to go, but there needs to be a uniform standard, and that speaks to the latest comment.

Rich

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[Chris Keller]

There's at least the beginnings of a uniform standard for the forms with the templates ZIP file. I think what dre is pointing out is that it's inefficient for every Winlink program (RMS Express, Pat, etc) to re-implement the form template integration, and it would be ideal to have a separate program for that. This would be similar to the way that the ARDOP modem is a separate program which gets invoked by RMS Express, Pat, et al. If Winlink form rendering was a separate program, then it could even be used by non-Winlink email programs.

Agreed that in principle it's a great idea, but it's got to be put off as a long-term ambition. We're so close to having forms integrated in Pat that it would be a shame to put on the brakes in the name of perfect architecture.

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[Richard Morrisey]

Sure - but just so you know, I pointed the pat effort out much earlier in the thread - so I'm 100 percent behind that. Yet - all these ideas are relevant and this is a great discussion.

[Chris Keller]

Afirm!

[Jim (KJ7DMV)]

Chris, I have been delayed in trying the rpi version of the beta pat, just have it up and running now after some false starts.

Here is the version I am running ...

Pat v0.10.0 (4265c4c) linux/arm - go1.11.6

I note in the command line usage info there is a composeform mode to operate. When I access via the browser interface, I compose a message but I do not see an option to select a form. I recall seeing some screenshots as to how it should appear but I can't find those now.

[Jim (KJ7DMV)]

Chris, I have the install working almost correctly. I don't see the "templates" option when I send a message, but I can compose and send a message via the command line option.

If I could get that last bit figured out, I can do some more extensive testing.

I assume I can use Pat to send test messages to myself and respond if I use the proper subject line with //W2K/ at the start of the subject.

[Chris Keller]

Hey Jim,

If I understand correctly, you're able to compose a form template email from the command-line composeform option, but you're having trouble finding the forms feature from the web GUI composer, is that correct? There should be a button on the bottom of the regular compose dialog. If there's not, it's possible we handed you a testing version that didn't have the web assets updated or something like that.

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[Jim Weisgram]

Correct. Yes, I wonder if I have an old version of the beta.  Here is what pat version returns

Pat v0.10.0 (4265c4c) linux/arm - go1.11.6

>> Jim Weisgram KJ7DMV

[Chris Keller]

Jim, that version is not terribly old, but there is a newer version in the beta Drive folder. The new version includes a GUI option to update Winlink forms. Give it a try!

[Jim Weisgram]

Thanks. the armhf package, I believe. Here we go

>> Jim Weisgram KJ7DMV

[Erlend Grimseid]

Realy exited about this new feature, and im trying to test it.

Refering to this message.

Where in the config should i put this line, and shold there be any },],[ or{ symbols anywhere?

[Erlend Grimseid]

Of course the image I tried til insert in the above message didn't work. But i figured it out and got it working.

Thanks for the effort.

 If anyone is interested this is how I entered the line in the config. First line.

{

  "forms_path": "/home/pi/.wl2k/Standard_Forms",

  "mycall": "LA4TTA",

I notice that some fields are not correctly filled when opening the form.

It seems to have been transmitted correctly when i read an copy of the message in gmail.

[Jack Haefner]

Also thrilled about this as well....

jwh

Jack Haefner, PMP, GPC-F

703-483-5441

https://www.linkedin.com/in/jack-haefner/

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[nick cleveland]

Im hoping this is an easy answer. How do i set up the path in pat to find the forms? i have very limited linux knowledge. I'm using pat on a raspberry pi wit KM4ACKs build-a-pi. 

[Chris Keller]

Yes Nick, easy answer! After running "pat configure", add the "forms_path" key/value at the end:

...

  "telnet": {
    "listen_addr": ":8774",
    "password": ""
  },
  "GPSd": {
    "enable_http": true,
    "use_server_time": false,
    "addr": "localhost:2947"
  },
  "schedule": {},
  "version_reporting_disabled": false,
  "forms_path": "/home/chris/.wl2k/Standard_Forms"
}

Note that Pat is picky about commas in the config file. They must be between lines in an object, but must not come after the last line in an object. If you get an error message about "Unable to load/write config", check your commas.

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[nick cleveland]

Thank you for your help. The comma ended up biting me in the butt. But after I read your message about 15 times I figured out what it did wrong. Thanks again for your help

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

It seems to have been transmitted correctly when i read an copy of the message in gmail.

 

 

 

On Wednesday, December 23, 2020 at 10:26:03 AM UTC+1 Erlend Grimseid wrote:

Realy exited about this new feature, and im trying to test it.

 

Refering to this message.

 

Where in the config should i put this line, and shold there be any },],[ or{ symbols anywhere?

 

On Saturday, December 19, 2020 at 5:25:33 AM UTC+1 Jim (KJ7DMV) wrote:

Thanks. the armhf package, I believe. Here we go

>> Jim Weisgram KJ7DMV

 

 

On Fri, Dec 18, 2020 at 8:21 PM Chris Keller <xyl...@gmail.com> wrote:

Jim, that version is not terribly old, but there is a newer version in the beta Drive folder. The new version includes a GUI option to update Winlink forms. Give it a try!

 

On Fri, Dec 18, 2020 at 9:15 PM Jim Weisgram <jimwe...@gmail.com> wrote:

Correct. Yes, I wonder if I have an old version of the beta.  Here is what pat version returns

 

Pat v0.10.0 (4265c4c) linux/arm - go1.11.6

>> Jim Weisgram KJ7DMV

 

 

On Fri, Dec 18, 2020 at 8:13 PM Chris Keller <xyl...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hey Jim,

 

If I understand correctly, you're able to compose a form template email from the command-line composeform option, but you're having trouble finding the forms feature from the web GUI composer, is that correct? There should be a button on the bottom of the regular compose dialog. If there's not, it's possible we handed you a testing version that didn't have the web assets updated or something like that.

 

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