Passport 40 rudder quadrant query
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Paddy Lawrance
Jul 28, 2024, 1:04:43 PM7/28/24
to Passport Owners
Hi all. Just about to head off on a long anticipated three-month cruise and we’ve come to a lumpy and grinding halt. We have a 1984 Passport 40, previously known as Tara, then Tara Dawn, now Mana Wai. Hull #71. We have problems with our steering. I’ve attached a couple of photos showing the quadrant and the area of interest, which is just below the emergency tiller access plate behind the wheel. The plate is very stuck so we are unable to see what’s down there at the moment. The engineer will be pulling that out in a couple of days, and pulling out what is below it, which is where we think the problem lies. Can anyone please let us know what we are likely to find within the area with the grub-screw securing attachments above the quadrant highlighted in the pic.? Is that a housing for the top bearing for the rudder?
Paddy Lawrance
Jul 28, 2024, 1:04:43 PM7/28/24
to Passport Owners
Hi all. Just about to head off on a long anticipated three-month cruise and we’ve come to a lumpy and grinding halt. We have a 1984 Passport 40, previously known as Tara, then Tara Dawn, now Mana Wai. Hull #71. We have problems with our steering. I’ve attached a couple of photos showing the quadrant and the area of interest, which is just below the emergency tiller access plate behind the wheel. The plate is very stuck so we are unable to see what’s down there at the moment. The engineer will be pulling that out in a couple of days, and pulling out what is below it, which is where we think the problem lies. Can anyone please let us know what we are likely to find within the area with the grub-screw securing attachments above the quadrant highlighted in the pic.?
psherwood
Jul 28, 2024, 2:46:20 PM7/28/24
to Paddy Lawrance, Passport Owners
Suggestion for getting the access plate off, and apologies if I belabor
the obvious: Run a generous bead of penetrating oil around where the
threads meet. Use a true penetrating oil (not WD-40) -- I like Kroil; PB
Blaster is also good; others reportedly are pretty good as well. Wait a
while, like 15 minutes or a half hour or maybe all afternoon or longer,
reapplying the oil as needed to keep the thread area wet. Tap firmly
(but not so hard as to damage anything) with a hammer around the access
plate close to the thread area.
If you're feeling bold and have one of those little butane torches (or a
bigger torch) handy, you could apply some heat to the thread area -- but
be VERY careful and remember the old surgeon's joke ("The operation was
a success but the patient died"). I'd consider applying heat as a
last-resort move. Usually Kroil, time, knocking with a hammer, and
patience will do the trick.
When the universe whispers to you that the time is right, try to remove
the access plate. It might help to have someone hold the business end of
the winch handle in place while you apply more force to the handle end.
Sudden sharp blows, as with the heel of your hand, can be effective.
Once you can get the plate to budge just the tiniest bit, you're home
free -- work the plate back and forth and it'll come out directly.
When reinstalling the plate, thoroughly clean the threads on both the
plate and the opening and smear some grease all around the threads. I
like Corrosion Block; CorrosionX is also good. But plain old axle grease
will work fine. Then remove and regrease the access plate annually or
semi-annually, about a 10-minute chore, as part of your regular safety
inspection.
HTH,
Phil
ex-Cynosure
On Sun 7/28/24 04:26, 'Paddy Lawrance' via Passport Owners wrote:
> emergency tiller access plate behind
> the wheel. The plate is very stuck ...
the obvious: Run a generous bead of penetrating oil around where the
threads meet. Use a true penetrating oil (not WD-40) -- I like Kroil; PB
Blaster is also good; others reportedly are pretty good as well. Wait a
while, like 15 minutes or a half hour or maybe all afternoon or longer,
reapplying the oil as needed to keep the thread area wet. Tap firmly
(but not so hard as to damage anything) with a hammer around the access
plate close to the thread area.
If you're feeling bold and have one of those little butane torches (or a
bigger torch) handy, you could apply some heat to the thread area -- but
be VERY careful and remember the old surgeon's joke ("The operation was
a success but the patient died"). I'd consider applying heat as a
last-resort move. Usually Kroil, time, knocking with a hammer, and
patience will do the trick.
When the universe whispers to you that the time is right, try to remove
the access plate. It might help to have someone hold the business end of
the winch handle in place while you apply more force to the handle end.
Sudden sharp blows, as with the heel of your hand, can be effective.
Once you can get the plate to budge just the tiniest bit, you're home
free -- work the plate back and forth and it'll come out directly.
When reinstalling the plate, thoroughly clean the threads on both the
plate and the opening and smear some grease all around the threads. I
like Corrosion Block; CorrosionX is also good. But plain old axle grease
will work fine. Then remove and regrease the access plate annually or
semi-annually, about a 10-minute chore, as part of your regular safety
inspection.
HTH,
Phil
ex-Cynosure
On Sun 7/28/24 04:26, 'Paddy Lawrance' via Passport Owners wrote:
> emergency tiller access plate behind
Jeff Beller
Jul 28, 2024, 11:27:16 PM7/28/24
to Paddy Lawrance, Passport Owners
Paddy,
Your's doesn't look like the standard factory installation for Passport 40's. The original had a cage mounted to the hull underneath the quadrant and the top of that cage contained the rudder bearing. Lots of owners have had problems with that cage as it was constructed of mild steel and usually became very rusted and corroded. It looks like your setup has that cage removed and replaced (possibly) by a bearing above the quadrant and under the cockpit floor.
Jeff
S/V Journey
On Sun, Jul 28, 2024 at 10:04 AM 'Paddy Lawrance' via Passport Owners <Passpor...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
Hi all. Just about to head off on a long anticipated three-month cruise and we’ve come to a lumpy and grinding halt. We have a 1984 Passport 40, previously known as Tara, then Tara Dawn, now Mana Wai. Hull #71. We have problems with our steering. I’ve attached a couple of photos showing the quadrant and the area of interest, which is just below the emergency tiller access plate behind the wheel. The plate is very stuck so we are unable to see what’s down there at the moment. The engineer will be pulling that out in a couple of days, and pulling out what is below it, which is where we think the problem lies. Can anyone please let us know what we are likely to find within the area with the grub-screw securing attachments above the quadrant highlighted in the pic.? Is that a housing for the top bearing for the rudder?
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Patrick Jury
Jul 28, 2024, 11:34:45 PM7/28/24
to Jeff Beller, Passport Owners
Excellent Jeff. Brings together all of the threads about the infamous ‘cage’ and its purpose. I thought there had to be a bearing up there somewhere. So looks like cleaning that rusted thing of ours out will be insufficient; we’ll have to fashion a bearing/bushing arrangement above as seems to be there atm, or reinstate a durable version of the original cage. We’ll know more when we pull it all apart. Thanks again.
~pl
On 29 Jul 2024, at 1:27 PM, Jeff Beller <jeffdor...@gmail.com> wrote:
Paddy,Your's doesn't look like the standard factory installation for Passport 40's. The original had a cage mounted to the hull underneath the quadrant and the top of that cage contained the rudder bearing. Lots of owners have had problems with that cage as it was constructed of mild steel and usually became very rusted and corroded. It looks like your setup has that cage removed and replaced (possibly) by a bearing above the quadrant and under the cockpit floor.JeffS/V Journey
On Sun, Jul 28, 2024 at 10:04 AM 'Paddy Lawrance' via Passport Owners <Passpor...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
<Quadrant area of interest.jpg>Hi all. Just about to head off on a long anticipated three-month cruise and we’ve come to a lumpy and grinding halt. We have a 1984 Passport 40, previously known as Tara, then Tara Dawn, now Mana Wai. Hull #71. We have problems with our steering. I’ve attached a couple of photos showing the quadrant and the area of interest, which is just below the emergency tiller access plate behind the wheel. The plate is very stuck so we are unable to see what’s down there at the moment. The engineer will be pulling that out in a couple of days, and pulling out what is below it, which is where we think the problem lies. Can anyone please let us know what we are likely to find within the area with the grub-screw securing attachments above the quadrant highlighted in the pic.? Is that a housing for the top bearing for the rudder?
<Rudder quadrant 2.jpg>--
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Donald Fife
Jul 29, 2024, 1:40:28 AM7/29/24
to Jeff Beller, Paddy Lawrance, Passport Owners
I have hull 25 and there was nothing on the top, just a rusted out cage. The only bearing was a man made material to slip like a bearing. I rebuilt the cage with SS and used the same man made washer bearing.
My cage only had one foot of four still attached to the hull. It was working well. I have seen at least thirty cages and they are all different. I can only assume the cage is only a backup for the foot of the skeg. I’m definitely not an engineer. It is still working after 20 years of sailing.
Paddy,Your's doesn't look like the standard factory installation for Passport 40's. The original had a cage mounted to the hull underneath the quadrant and the top of that cage contained the rudder bearing. Lots of owners have had problems with that cage as it was constructed of mild steel and usually became very rusted and corroded. It looks like your setup has that cage removed and replaced (possibly) by a bearing above the quadrant and under the cockpit floor.JeffS/V Journey
On Sun, Jul 28, 2024 at 10:04 AM 'Paddy Lawrance' via Passport Owners <Passpor...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
<Quadrant area of interest.jpg>Hi all. Just about to head off on a long anticipated three-month cruise and we’ve come to a lumpy and grinding halt. We have a 1984 Passport 40, previously known as Tara, then Tara Dawn, now Mana Wai. Hull #71. We have problems with our steering. I’ve attached a couple of photos showing the quadrant and the area of interest, which is just below the emergency tiller access plate behind the wheel. The plate is very stuck so we are unable to see what’s down there at the moment. The engineer will be pulling that out in a couple of days, and pulling out what is below it, which is where we think the problem lies. Can anyone please let us know what we are likely to find within the area with the grub-screw securing attachments above the quadrant highlighted in the pic.? Is that a housing for the top bearing for the rudder?
<Rudder quadrant 2.jpg>
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Marty McOmber
Jul 29, 2024, 6:11:31 PM7/29/24
to Donald Fife, Jeff Beller, Paddy Lawrance, Passport Owners
Hi folks,
I hope Matthew weighs in on this. But he and I have worked with the same outstanding boatwright on our rudders and various associated parts. For my boat, a 1984 Passport 40, we removed the cage, the plinth, and then ground out the bronze plate with attached lower portion of the packing gland. We replaced this with a system of Jefe parts. We added a rudder tube with finder bearing, which was glassed in place. We added the Jefe articulating top bearing with access plate in place of the original emergency rudder post access plate. We also built a new rudder and had a new rudder post manufactured. The entire set up is now skookum. And no cage.
Mattew took a slightly different and less expensive tack that I believe is equally as sound.
After working on both of these, the consensus is that the rudder cage exists for one reason, and it's not to provide an upper bearing support as I had supposed. The real purpose seems to be to stop the rudder post from lifting up and out of the skeg shoe in heavy seas. It also provided a convenient place for rudder stops.
Looking at the pics above, the modified installation looks to accomplish the same goal of providing a stop again the rudder post lifting up. Thus, I think, the sleeve and the retaining ring with the cap head bolts just below the access plate.
Not sure if any of that info is helpful, but thought I'd share.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/PassportOwners/C61352FF-CFFA-48B0-8BC5-6C1E90A61E42%40sbcglobal.net.
Patrick Jury
Jul 29, 2024, 6:37:53 PM7/29/24
to Marty McOmber, Donald Fife, Jeff Beller, Passport Owners
Many thanks for your input Marty. I have studied in grateful detail Matthew’s solution and the thought process leading to it. Ours has clearly been modified from the original and there is no cage. Among other things, there is a strong glassed-in bespoke structure behind the quadrant to which the rudder shaft is bolted just below the quadrant. Seems to be a solution to the potential rudder lifting problem to which you refer, in which case we don’t need any of that rusty mess below the cockpit sole.
We are now leaning towards hauling out, dropping the rudder, pulling it all apart and fashioning a useful arrangement when we work out exactly what the last brains trust has done.
~pl
Sent from my iPhone
On 30 Jul 2024, at 08:11, Marty McOmber <mmco...@gmail.com> wrote:
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