Waterlock Muffler
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Chris - Pelican
Oct 30, 2009, 10:58:00 AM10/30/09
to Passport Owners
Sorry to keep bouncing around here, but the more we look at things the
more we keep coming back to water in the system. We ran the engine
for a bit last night. Then, this morning, we pulled the mixing elbow
apart and water came rushing out of every section, including the part
that hooks into the exhaust manifold. In the process of doing this,
we noticed that when we removed the anti-siphon device, air was
rushing in, so obviously the whole system isn't able to cope with the
amount of water going on, and something is broken. We *think* the
anti-siphon probably WANTS to work, but just can't deal with something
else that's broken in the system.
That leaves us the muffler and the gooseneck/silencer.
So... I've been looking at Vetus waterlock mufflers and wonder how I
can fit one of those things into Pelican. The current unit is glassed
in just forward of the stuffing box - there's a hose going in, and a
hose going out. Has anyone broken into this area to use it to install
a new waterlock? Any pictures? Dimensions of what's available upon
removal? Thoughts on how to install a new muffler without removing
the shaft? ANY thoughts here would be greatly appreciated. I read a
few messages on the old Passport list and one described the muffler as
being fiberglass, but there really wasn't much other information.
I'm not ready to install the new muffler yet, but it's high on our
list.
Chris
s/v/ Pelican
Passport 40 #76
www.svpelican.com
more we keep coming back to water in the system. We ran the engine
for a bit last night. Then, this morning, we pulled the mixing elbow
apart and water came rushing out of every section, including the part
that hooks into the exhaust manifold. In the process of doing this,
we noticed that when we removed the anti-siphon device, air was
rushing in, so obviously the whole system isn't able to cope with the
amount of water going on, and something is broken. We *think* the
anti-siphon probably WANTS to work, but just can't deal with something
else that's broken in the system.
That leaves us the muffler and the gooseneck/silencer.
So... I've been looking at Vetus waterlock mufflers and wonder how I
can fit one of those things into Pelican. The current unit is glassed
in just forward of the stuffing box - there's a hose going in, and a
hose going out. Has anyone broken into this area to use it to install
a new waterlock? Any pictures? Dimensions of what's available upon
removal? Thoughts on how to install a new muffler without removing
the shaft? ANY thoughts here would be greatly appreciated. I read a
few messages on the old Passport list and one described the muffler as
being fiberglass, but there really wasn't much other information.
I'm not ready to install the new muffler yet, but it's high on our
list.
Chris
s/v/ Pelican
Passport 40 #76
www.svpelican.com
Donal Botkin
Oct 30, 2009, 11:46:39 AM10/30/09
to Chris - Pelican, Passport Owners
Chris,
Unless you fix the anti-siphon, a new muffler won't help. There is a
problem in that the "anti-siphon" should NOT hold a vacuum overnight.
I don't know what yours looks like, but in principle it is just a loop
above the waterline with a one-way air valve at the top. Mine is just
a rubber flap. Air should go in if you blow on it from the outside.
They sometimes leak, so clever owners put a hose on the air inlet and
lead it to the bilge. Not-so-clever owners make the hose too long
(below the waterline) and it siphons water into the bilge. The worst
case is if the hose is below bilge water as that creates a closed
system and renders the anti-siphon ineffective. BTW, there is another
anti-siphon on the thing you call a gooseneck, often with the same
issues. Check it out.
View[+]Finder
p.s. Are the hose connections on the water muffler the same as when
you had the Nanni? They are not interchangeable--there is an "in" and
an "out".
--
Passport Owners Association http://passportyachts.org
To post to the group, use "reply all" or send email to Passpor...@googlegroups.com
To reply to just the author, just use "reply:
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Unless you fix the anti-siphon, a new muffler won't help. There is a
problem in that the "anti-siphon" should NOT hold a vacuum overnight.
I don't know what yours looks like, but in principle it is just a loop
above the waterline with a one-way air valve at the top. Mine is just
a rubber flap. Air should go in if you blow on it from the outside.
They sometimes leak, so clever owners put a hose on the air inlet and
lead it to the bilge. Not-so-clever owners make the hose too long
(below the waterline) and it siphons water into the bilge. The worst
case is if the hose is below bilge water as that creates a closed
system and renders the anti-siphon ineffective. BTW, there is another
anti-siphon on the thing you call a gooseneck, often with the same
issues. Check it out.
View[+]Finder
p.s. Are the hose connections on the water muffler the same as when
you had the Nanni? They are not interchangeable--there is an "in" and
an "out".
Passport Owners Association http://passportyachts.org
To post to the group, use "reply all" or send email to Passpor...@googlegroups.com
To reply to just the author, just use "reply:
For more options, go to
http://groups.google.com/group/PassportOwners?hl=en
Chris - Pelican
Oct 30, 2009, 1:04:50 PM10/30/09
to Passport Owners
Did you post a picture? I saw "View Finder" in your message but no
pic.
We are starting with moving the antisiphon that is between the heat
exchanger and the mixing elbow to the port side cabinet with the
silencer/gooseneck. This is the only place we can think to put it
that's not out in the open cabin, but I'm not in love with the idea of
ADDING another 15 feet of hose to an already large circuit. We have
the spring type of anti-siphon valve, no external hose. In its old
spot, the loop was sitting 9.5" above the water. The new spot will
probably be 2 to 2.5 feet above the waterline. We've also noticed
that the water level in the hose leading from the mixing elbow to the
waterlock (after it was flooded) is approximately 4.5" ABOVE the top
of the exhaust manifold. We need to drain the system to see if this
is the "natural" level.
> Passport Owners Associationhttp://passportyachts.org
pic.
We are starting with moving the antisiphon that is between the heat
exchanger and the mixing elbow to the port side cabinet with the
silencer/gooseneck. This is the only place we can think to put it
that's not out in the open cabin, but I'm not in love with the idea of
ADDING another 15 feet of hose to an already large circuit. We have
the spring type of anti-siphon valve, no external hose. In its old
spot, the loop was sitting 9.5" above the water. The new spot will
probably be 2 to 2.5 feet above the waterline. We've also noticed
that the water level in the hose leading from the mixing elbow to the
waterlock (after it was flooded) is approximately 4.5" ABOVE the top
of the exhaust manifold. We need to drain the system to see if this
is the "natural" level.
Chris - Pelican
Oct 30, 2009, 1:50:25 PM10/30/09
to Passport Owners
Also... we don't see an anti-siphon on the silencer/gooseneck (what
would you call it?) in the port cabinet. Also, I'm not sure if the
hose connections on the waterlock are the same, but it worked for the
first couple of years we had the boat (as far as we can tell). The
company that did the repower has a good reputation, but it was done by
the prior owners, so we don't have intimate knowledge.
While working on the silencer/gooseneck, we've noticed it's quite
corroded and there is moist rust on the bottom of it. Any
recommendations for replacement, since it looks like we need to
regardless of the other problems...? I was looking at the Vetus
WLOCKLT50 to replace it with. Any other suggestions? It looks like
the Vetus unit has a similar volume to the original, but it will JUST
fit, and you know what that means...
would you call it?) in the port cabinet. Also, I'm not sure if the
hose connections on the waterlock are the same, but it worked for the
first couple of years we had the boat (as far as we can tell). The
company that did the repower has a good reputation, but it was done by
the prior owners, so we don't have intimate knowledge.
While working on the silencer/gooseneck, we've noticed it's quite
corroded and there is moist rust on the bottom of it. Any
recommendations for replacement, since it looks like we need to
regardless of the other problems...? I was looking at the Vetus
WLOCKLT50 to replace it with. Any other suggestions? It looks like
the Vetus unit has a similar volume to the original, but it will JUST
fit, and you know what that means...
Donal Botkin
Oct 30, 2009, 2:13:47 PM10/30/09
to Chris - Pelican, Passport Owners
Hi Chris,
This is scary--your Yanmar engine may be mounted lower than my Nanni
and your description indicates that the exhaust manifold is below the
waterline. The anti-siphon we are discussing is in the water-injection
circuit, right? That's connected to salt water on the input side via
the heat exchanger, pump and through-hull fitting. The anti-siphon
does two things: it allows water in the injector to drain into the
water muffler; and, it prevents water from the through-hull from
filling the muffler should the salt-water intake pump strip off
impeller blades (it happens). Water standing in the exhaust pipe is
not good--but you know that--as it can get into the engine through the
exhaust valves.
Sorry, but I don't have pictures handy, but there is no need to have
hoses running everywhere. The cooling water anti-siphon on my boat is
in the cabinet behind the engine as high as it can be just under the
counter top. That's about a foot above waterline, maybe a bit more
when heeled. There is a short hose from the "valve" to the bilge just
long enough to keep water leaks out of the cabinet. It works and is
easy to clean if necessary.
The anti-siphon on the "silencer" (it's inside a secret compartment
accessible from one of the port cabinets) may be the cause of your
problems. It is possible for the exhaust port to suck water back into
the water-muffler and that could cause the symptoms you describe.
There is a small chance that your water muffler may be contributing if
something has gone bad inside. The gas from the exhaust is supposed to
empty the muffler by a clever arrangement of the pipes inside it.
There should be no standing water in the exhaust hose--ever! One more
thing: the exhaust is on the starboard side of you engine, right?
Hope this helps,
View[+]Finder
This is scary--your Yanmar engine may be mounted lower than my Nanni
and your description indicates that the exhaust manifold is below the
waterline. The anti-siphon we are discussing is in the water-injection
circuit, right? That's connected to salt water on the input side via
the heat exchanger, pump and through-hull fitting. The anti-siphon
does two things: it allows water in the injector to drain into the
water muffler; and, it prevents water from the through-hull from
filling the muffler should the salt-water intake pump strip off
impeller blades (it happens). Water standing in the exhaust pipe is
not good--but you know that--as it can get into the engine through the
exhaust valves.
Sorry, but I don't have pictures handy, but there is no need to have
hoses running everywhere. The cooling water anti-siphon on my boat is
in the cabinet behind the engine as high as it can be just under the
counter top. That's about a foot above waterline, maybe a bit more
when heeled. There is a short hose from the "valve" to the bilge just
long enough to keep water leaks out of the cabinet. It works and is
easy to clean if necessary.
The anti-siphon on the "silencer" (it's inside a secret compartment
accessible from one of the port cabinets) may be the cause of your
problems. It is possible for the exhaust port to suck water back into
the water-muffler and that could cause the symptoms you describe.
There is a small chance that your water muffler may be contributing if
something has gone bad inside. The gas from the exhaust is supposed to
empty the muffler by a clever arrangement of the pipes inside it.
There should be no standing water in the exhaust hose--ever! One more
thing: the exhaust is on the starboard side of you engine, right?
Hope this helps,
View[+]Finder
Chris - Pelican
Oct 30, 2009, 2:28:44 PM10/30/09
to Passport Owners
The exhaust manifold IS below the waterline, but from what I
understand that's why the antisiphon exists. We are indeed discussing
the anti-siphon for the water injection circuit. As you stated, water
standing in the exhaust pipe is not good, and the back pressure
created from it MAY BE what is causing our starting issues (I'm
cautious in saying that it IS the problem since we've tried so many
things already). Our anti-siphon was installed in the same spot as
yours, but since our waterline is down 3 inches+ from being a weekend
boat to becoming a live aboard, we thought it might be a good idea to
raise it some more. The silencer is what I was describing before that
has the damp rust on the bottom. You can see where it has been
leaking some, so I'm ordering a new Vetus "Gooseneck" to replace it
(http://www.go2marine.com/product.do?no=84952F). It appears to
provide a function to prevent seawater from entering the exhaust
circuit when heeled over. I don't know if it provides silencing
functions or not. Does anyone know if the unit that's there right now
actually functions as a silencer too?
understand that's why the antisiphon exists. We are indeed discussing
the anti-siphon for the water injection circuit. As you stated, water
standing in the exhaust pipe is not good, and the back pressure
created from it MAY BE what is causing our starting issues (I'm
cautious in saying that it IS the problem since we've tried so many
things already). Our anti-siphon was installed in the same spot as
yours, but since our waterline is down 3 inches+ from being a weekend
boat to becoming a live aboard, we thought it might be a good idea to
raise it some more. The silencer is what I was describing before that
has the damp rust on the bottom. You can see where it has been
leaking some, so I'm ordering a new Vetus "Gooseneck" to replace it
(http://www.go2marine.com/product.do?no=84952F). It appears to
provide a function to prevent seawater from entering the exhaust
circuit when heeled over. I don't know if it provides silencing
functions or not. Does anyone know if the unit that's there right now
actually functions as a silencer too?
Donal Botkin
Oct 30, 2009, 2:58:56 PM10/30/09
to Chris - Pelican, Passport Owners
Vicious circle! The engine, when running, can push the cooling water
out via the muffler and the rest of the system. When cranking, there
is not enough air (just whatever comes in the intake system) to make
the "water lift muffler" do its job. The anti-siphon is not "on duty"
as it is under pressure from the salt water pump. So, if you crank too
long you will fill the muffler and the exhaust hose up to the engine
and the anti-siphon won't be able to help.
If the engine is running and then shut down, the anti-siphon goes to
work and breaks the vacuum on the salt-water injector and prevents the
exhaust hose from filling from the engine side. If your exhaust
through-hull is under water it is possible that the water could come
in from that side, hence the other anti-siphon on my boat.
The P40 have a "North Sea" exhaust--or half of one I should say--and
on starboard tack the exhaust will be submerged and it is possible
that water may come up the pipe under some conditions.
If you have evidence of water in the engine, the source is most likely
the exhaust system, but the problem is caused by the hard starting.
Uhh, does your Yanmar use glow plugs? My Nanni does and there was an
early problem starting because of insufficient voltage (the instrument
panel was moved and the wires for the glow plugs were "extended" with
too small a wire. That's fixed using a relay, but may not be
contributing in your case.
View[+]Finder
out via the muffler and the rest of the system. When cranking, there
is not enough air (just whatever comes in the intake system) to make
the "water lift muffler" do its job. The anti-siphon is not "on duty"
as it is under pressure from the salt water pump. So, if you crank too
long you will fill the muffler and the exhaust hose up to the engine
and the anti-siphon won't be able to help.
If the engine is running and then shut down, the anti-siphon goes to
work and breaks the vacuum on the salt-water injector and prevents the
exhaust hose from filling from the engine side. If your exhaust
through-hull is under water it is possible that the water could come
in from that side, hence the other anti-siphon on my boat.
The P40 have a "North Sea" exhaust--or half of one I should say--and
on starboard tack the exhaust will be submerged and it is possible
that water may come up the pipe under some conditions.
If you have evidence of water in the engine, the source is most likely
the exhaust system, but the problem is caused by the hard starting.
Uhh, does your Yanmar use glow plugs? My Nanni does and there was an
early problem starting because of insufficient voltage (the instrument
panel was moved and the wires for the glow plugs were "extended" with
too small a wire. That's fixed using a relay, but may not be
contributing in your case.
View[+]Finder
Don Fife
Oct 30, 2009, 4:52:58 PM10/30/09
to Passport Owners, Chris - Pelican
Chris, not sure if I can help but had a crankcase-water problem with my Pathfinder engine. New to my boat in 2004, I checked the oil and the dipstick started to pee salt water. Rather alarming. My thought was that I did not close the through hull. The following week the same thing happened with the through hull closed. So this means the water could only be coming from the exhaust outlet. The pathfinder exhaust elbow has a water outlet for some water to leave without entering the lift muffler. With our port list this exit of water is under the water line. Following this line lead me to the cabinet silencer or whatever it is and another anti siphon valve. I have a picture of the silencer? and will send it to you however not sure if I can post it on this site. I took this anti siphon valve apart and found an
amazing amount of our black goop used on the device. So much that the top siphon plug was gooped on too, making it inoperable. Replaced it and I have no more water in the crankcase for five years now.
I can only talk about the Pathfinder exhaust elbow with the extra water line out, you may not have that. If you do, John of Pathfinder informed me that I must have an anti-siphon valve from the elbow up to the valve mounted on the engine side of the galley wall. The line then follows the exhaust out line to the exhaust silencer to another anti siphon valve and out. I believe this extra valve is needed due to the low engine level. I did not replace the rusty old silencer or whatever it is. Someone out there know the right name for this device?
--- On Fri, 10/30/09, Chris - Pelican <pel...@svpelican.com> wrote: |
|
Matt Sponer
Oct 30, 2009, 5:18:21 PM10/30/09
to Chris - Pelican, Passport Owners
Hi Chris,
Water in the exhaust elbow, is, of course, really bad. But if it's any
consolation, the Yanmar on Mary Frances had several repeated floodings
and worked fine for over a year except for the turbocharger seizing up
(she has the 4JH3-TBE). We eventually replaced the engine under
warranty because it was Yanmar's fault-- their factory technician
connected the engine exhaust to the wrong port on the water lift
muffler, to the pipe that is meant for the overboard exhaust and has
the longer pipe that goes down into the water, so water was spraying
back up into the engine whenever we shut it off. I think the engine
block was in fine shape, mostly because the oil was changed and she
was so quickly babied after every flooding, so the water never sat in
there for long, and if the replacement hadn't been free I would have
been completely confident in keeping the engine with a new
turbocharger.
Six thoughts on making your engine more dry:
The antisiphon can be placed even higher than under the kitchen
counter. There is a 'secret' compartment just forward of the galley
wall in the port cabinet. It's easy to open up-- just remove the
shelves in the aft most double door cabinet behind the settee on the
port side, and undo a couple long wood screws. In Mary Frances we ran
the antisiphon all the way up inside this, so that it was just below
deck level on the port side. The higher the better, since there is
then more suction on the valve when the flow starts. A valve is less
likely to get clogged if there is 3' of suction pulling air into it
than just a few inches of water pressure.
You can switch from an antisiphon valve to a simple hose that is
attached to the top of the antisiphon loop and runs into the top of
the bilge (but not so low that it is ever submerged). This is a little
bad because a small portion of the exhaust water will always be
running into the bilge when you run the engine, but the positive side
of this is that there is no valve to ever clog up. I prefer this
system, especially if you have a bilge alarm to tell you if the bilge
pump gets clogged while you are motoring for a long time. If the hose
is small and the loop is really high (just under the deck), not that
much water comes through.
You can add an exhaust riser. If you have the 'down angle'
transmission, your engine could be quite low in the boat, much lower
than the original Nanni. We had this transmission on Mary Frances, and
the top of the exhaust elbow was about twelve inches below the bottom
of the salon table. An exhaust riser is just a custom welded exhaust
elbow that would go straight up for twelve inches, then loops down and
the water is injected there. This effectively raises your engine
exhaust above the waterline. So even if the antisiphon valve fails you
probably wouldn't flood the engine. Now that I know how to weld, I
would just make one on any boat where there was room. It's not that
big of a deal. I think Yanmar even makes an exhaust elbow in two
pieces that is designed to have a length of pipe welded in the center,
but if not, I'd seriously look at just cutting up your existing
exhaust elbow and retrofitting this.
You can add a 'pisser'. Sorry for the term, there is probably a more
polite way to say that. This diverts some of the water from your heat
exchanger directly overboard, instead of injecting all of it into your
exhaust elbow. The exhaust elbow doesn't need the full flow of cooling
water from your engine, it just needs enough to cool down the exhaust
so it doesn't melt your hoses, so it's common to divert most of it
directly overboard to a thru-hull. This reduces the amount of water
going to your muffler when you are cranking the engine. This is just a
T that is connected after the antisiphon loop and before the exhaust
elbow. One part of the T goes to the exhaust elbow, the other part
goes to a thruhull. You can control the amount of water going to the
thru-hull vs. the exhaust system with the thru-hull valve (though that
is a little bad form to keep the thru-hull partially cracked, though
we just left ours all the way open and ended up with about half the
water going each way). If you are doing a lot of extended cranking
sessions you could even add a valve to the T that shuts off the feed
to the exhaust elbow.
Are you using the stock water lift muffler? The original Nanni had
1.5" exhaust hoses, I think. The 3" exhaust hoses have a lot more
volume. There is a thought that the muffler should be able to hold all
of the volume of the exhaust hose. So the muffler itself may be too
small, though of course a clogged antisiphon would fill any volume of
muffler. I didn't bother doing the math or experiments for this and
the second engine on Mary Frances was completely dry, but it's
possible that your muffler was smaller or they didn't retrofit larger
exhaust pipes to your old muffler and made a new, smaller one for you
that had less volume.
Good luck!
Matt.
> --
> Passport Owners Association http://passportyachts.org
Water in the exhaust elbow, is, of course, really bad. But if it's any
consolation, the Yanmar on Mary Frances had several repeated floodings
and worked fine for over a year except for the turbocharger seizing up
(she has the 4JH3-TBE). We eventually replaced the engine under
warranty because it was Yanmar's fault-- their factory technician
connected the engine exhaust to the wrong port on the water lift
muffler, to the pipe that is meant for the overboard exhaust and has
the longer pipe that goes down into the water, so water was spraying
back up into the engine whenever we shut it off. I think the engine
block was in fine shape, mostly because the oil was changed and she
was so quickly babied after every flooding, so the water never sat in
there for long, and if the replacement hadn't been free I would have
been completely confident in keeping the engine with a new
turbocharger.
Six thoughts on making your engine more dry:
The antisiphon can be placed even higher than under the kitchen
counter. There is a 'secret' compartment just forward of the galley
wall in the port cabinet. It's easy to open up-- just remove the
shelves in the aft most double door cabinet behind the settee on the
port side, and undo a couple long wood screws. In Mary Frances we ran
the antisiphon all the way up inside this, so that it was just below
deck level on the port side. The higher the better, since there is
then more suction on the valve when the flow starts. A valve is less
likely to get clogged if there is 3' of suction pulling air into it
than just a few inches of water pressure.
You can switch from an antisiphon valve to a simple hose that is
attached to the top of the antisiphon loop and runs into the top of
the bilge (but not so low that it is ever submerged). This is a little
bad because a small portion of the exhaust water will always be
running into the bilge when you run the engine, but the positive side
of this is that there is no valve to ever clog up. I prefer this
system, especially if you have a bilge alarm to tell you if the bilge
pump gets clogged while you are motoring for a long time. If the hose
is small and the loop is really high (just under the deck), not that
much water comes through.
You can add an exhaust riser. If you have the 'down angle'
transmission, your engine could be quite low in the boat, much lower
than the original Nanni. We had this transmission on Mary Frances, and
the top of the exhaust elbow was about twelve inches below the bottom
of the salon table. An exhaust riser is just a custom welded exhaust
elbow that would go straight up for twelve inches, then loops down and
the water is injected there. This effectively raises your engine
exhaust above the waterline. So even if the antisiphon valve fails you
probably wouldn't flood the engine. Now that I know how to weld, I
would just make one on any boat where there was room. It's not that
big of a deal. I think Yanmar even makes an exhaust elbow in two
pieces that is designed to have a length of pipe welded in the center,
but if not, I'd seriously look at just cutting up your existing
exhaust elbow and retrofitting this.
You can add a 'pisser'. Sorry for the term, there is probably a more
polite way to say that. This diverts some of the water from your heat
exchanger directly overboard, instead of injecting all of it into your
exhaust elbow. The exhaust elbow doesn't need the full flow of cooling
water from your engine, it just needs enough to cool down the exhaust
so it doesn't melt your hoses, so it's common to divert most of it
directly overboard to a thru-hull. This reduces the amount of water
going to your muffler when you are cranking the engine. This is just a
T that is connected after the antisiphon loop and before the exhaust
elbow. One part of the T goes to the exhaust elbow, the other part
goes to a thruhull. You can control the amount of water going to the
thru-hull vs. the exhaust system with the thru-hull valve (though that
is a little bad form to keep the thru-hull partially cracked, though
we just left ours all the way open and ended up with about half the
water going each way). If you are doing a lot of extended cranking
sessions you could even add a valve to the T that shuts off the feed
to the exhaust elbow.
Are you using the stock water lift muffler? The original Nanni had
1.5" exhaust hoses, I think. The 3" exhaust hoses have a lot more
volume. There is a thought that the muffler should be able to hold all
of the volume of the exhaust hose. So the muffler itself may be too
small, though of course a clogged antisiphon would fill any volume of
muffler. I didn't bother doing the math or experiments for this and
the second engine on Mary Frances was completely dry, but it's
possible that your muffler was smaller or they didn't retrofit larger
exhaust pipes to your old muffler and made a new, smaller one for you
that had less volume.
Good luck!
Matt.
> Passport Owners Association http://passportyachts.org
Donal Botkin
Oct 30, 2009, 6:50:05 PM10/30/09
to Chris - Pelican, Passport Owners
Ooooh! I went on the Yanmar website, guessed at what engine you might
have and if it looks kinda like the picture below, I'll bet the
exhaust has been piped to the wrong side of the muffler! Check it out.
have and if it looks kinda like the picture below, I'll bet the
exhaust has been piped to the wrong side of the muffler! Check it out.
Bill Schmidt
Nov 1, 2009, 7:56:52 PM11/1/09
to ma...@entelepon.com, Chris - Pelican, Passport Owners
OK, I've researched waterlift mufflers pretty thoroughly and I think I
understand them. But what the heck is that gizmo in the exhaust line, buried
in the port locker behind a false bulk head? Is it a water/exhaust
separator? A second waterlift muffler? Why just before the exhaust line
exits out the hull? Does any other boat that you know of have one of these?
I'm perplexed! Oh, by the way, Chris....what's happening to Pelican ???
Billy Manana
understand them. But what the heck is that gizmo in the exhaust line, buried
in the port locker behind a false bulk head? Is it a water/exhaust
separator? A second waterlift muffler? Why just before the exhaust line
exits out the hull? Does any other boat that you know of have one of these?
I'm perplexed! Oh, by the way, Chris....what's happening to Pelican ???
Billy Manana
Michael Moradzadeh
Nov 1, 2009, 8:15:38 PM11/1/09
to Bill Schmidt, <matt@entelepon.com>, Chris - Pelican, Passport Owners
I have one too. No idea. I think it's designed to keep the bilge moist
Sent from my iPhone
Sent from my iPhone
John Warren
Nov 1, 2009, 9:18:35 PM11/1/09
to Bill Schmidt, ma...@entelepon.com, Chris - Pelican, Passport Owners
Billy Boy...I think every Passport has one of these mufflers...not sure, but
I know mine does. As far as I know...every Passport has one and it's
located in a cabinet over the exit of the exhaust water on the port side.
You will have to take the port cabinet apart to get to it. On Warren
Peace...the interior part of the cabinet has screws that are exposed...not
with bungs on top of them...so it was obvious. If you remove the vertical
inner wall of the port cabinet...there is another muffler there...and I
bet...it is very rusty even though it is made of stainless. Don't you just
love stainless steel that rusts! However...there are exhaust gases going
through there...sort of toxic ya think?
When we repowered years ago with the Westerbeke (about the same time you
repowered), we replaced every exhaust hose on the boat. We had the mystery
muffler replaced at that time when we repowered because we increased the
size of the exhaust hose from the engine to the aqualift to the mystery
cabinet muffler to the port side hull. We made a larger hole in the port
hull to give the engine more breathing room...in other words...less back
pressure. That was a long time ago...I think the original exhaust exit was
2.5 inches in ID and we made it 3.0 inches in ID. This is what Westerbeke
recommended to us...so we did it to meet their specifications.
Take care...good sailing...
Mexico...here we come!!!!
I know mine does. As far as I know...every Passport has one and it's
located in a cabinet over the exit of the exhaust water on the port side.
You will have to take the port cabinet apart to get to it. On Warren
Peace...the interior part of the cabinet has screws that are exposed...not
with bungs on top of them...so it was obvious. If you remove the vertical
inner wall of the port cabinet...there is another muffler there...and I
bet...it is very rusty even though it is made of stainless. Don't you just
love stainless steel that rusts! However...there are exhaust gases going
through there...sort of toxic ya think?
When we repowered years ago with the Westerbeke (about the same time you
repowered), we replaced every exhaust hose on the boat. We had the mystery
muffler replaced at that time when we repowered because we increased the
size of the exhaust hose from the engine to the aqualift to the mystery
cabinet muffler to the port side hull. We made a larger hole in the port
hull to give the engine more breathing room...in other words...less back
pressure. That was a long time ago...I think the original exhaust exit was
2.5 inches in ID and we made it 3.0 inches in ID. This is what Westerbeke
recommended to us...so we did it to meet their specifications.
Take care...good sailing...
Mexico...here we come!!!!
Jon Ash
Nov 1, 2009, 9:34:12 PM11/1/09
to Michael Moradzadeh, Bill Schmidt, ma...@entelepon.com, Chris - Pelican, Passport Owners
Ahoy Sailors: Caribbean Soul has this mysterious antsiphon valve behind the
bulkhead port side. it is the siphon break for the bilge pump. if this valve
gets blocked and doesn't allow air back in the line after a bilge pump
cycle, the pump will siphon water back into the bilge.(assuming the thru
hull is below the water line as on a stb tack) there are a lot of boats
with check valves in the bilge pump output to prevent this from happening.
but the correct solution is to keep the antipsiphon valve open. Usually
there is an 1/8 hose from the top of the valve into the bilge. it terminates
high just below the starter motor to make sure air is always available for
the "break".
fair winds
jon ash
caribbean soul p40 64
bulkhead port side. it is the siphon break for the bilge pump. if this valve
gets blocked and doesn't allow air back in the line after a bilge pump
cycle, the pump will siphon water back into the bilge.(assuming the thru
hull is below the water line as on a stb tack) there are a lot of boats
with check valves in the bilge pump output to prevent this from happening.
but the correct solution is to keep the antipsiphon valve open. Usually
there is an 1/8 hose from the top of the valve into the bilge. it terminates
high just below the starter motor to make sure air is always available for
the "break".
fair winds
jon ash
caribbean soul p40 64
Chris - Pelican
Nov 1, 2009, 9:58:16 PM11/1/09
to Passport Owners
Jon -
There is indeed a bilge antisiphon valve back there, but there is also
the mysterious "stainless" exhaust unit which certainly seems to be
staining everything around it on Pelican right now (i.e. it's leaking
some). From the research we've done, it's one of two things (or maybe
both). It MAY be a vertical silencer, reducing the sound from the
exhaust to a level lower than the waterlock itself does. More likely,
however, it's a gooseneck fitting that is supposed to prevent water
from backflowing into the rest of the exhaust system when you are
heeled or when a wave slaps against the side of the boat. We'll know
for sure when we replace ours and open up the old one (we'll take
pictures). There is a nice diagram of an exhaust system at
http://www.abcpm.co.uk/vetus/exhausts/. We're looking at replacing
the unit with the Vetus gooseneck (http://www.go2marine.com/product.do?
no=84952F, hoping that we got the function right. The Vetus gooseneck
raises the exhaust level to well above the waterline, and also
provides a chamber for water to backflow into.
John - what did your unit get replaced with when you redid the exhaust
system? Did you just raise your exhaust output hoses to the same
height before shooting it out? Or did you put in a different unit?
Donal - we have the Yanmar 4JH3E. I think the picture you have is of
a JH4 series engine. Regardless, just to verify, which is the input
and which is the output on the waterlift? I can't see the company
that did the repower doing it incorrectly as they have a great
reputation, and I would have thought that the engine would have had
issues right out of the gate if so, but it never hurts to check.
Matt - We ran the antisiphon into that cabinet a few days ago. We'll
see if it makes a difference. We like the idea of the "pisser" but
we're not sure we want to put a new thru-hull in. Did you connect it
to an existing thru-hull?
With regards to our engine, we moved the antisiphon from the cabinet
just aft of the engine to the port cabinet with the mysterious
"muffler". Also, with the fact that we're seeing leaks from the
mysterious muffler, we're replacing the unit. We're hoping one of
these two things solves the problems we're having. I still haven't
heard from anyone that has replaced the waterlock muffler just aft of
the bilge. We have no clue as to where we could fit a new muffler on
Pelican if that unit is broken. We're not even sure if we know how to
tell if that unit is broken, or what the best way to open it up is
(we're hesitant to use a sawzall that close to the hull).
Billy - We're currently in Haverstraw NY. We expected to be in
Baltimore right now, but my grandfather passed away a week ago and my
family is only a half hour from here, so we stuck around and missed
our weather window. Now I'm continuing to have issues with my
business and have to spend at least another week in the area
(seriously - anyone know someone who wants to invest in an IT
company?). So... everything is up in the air for the moment. We want
to head south, but my business keeps drawing me back. Baltimore was
supposed to provide us with an easy way to fly to Albany and back
(Southwest), but we have to get there first.
Chris
s/v/ Pelican
www.svpelican.com
Passport 40 #76
There is indeed a bilge antisiphon valve back there, but there is also
the mysterious "stainless" exhaust unit which certainly seems to be
staining everything around it on Pelican right now (i.e. it's leaking
some). From the research we've done, it's one of two things (or maybe
both). It MAY be a vertical silencer, reducing the sound from the
exhaust to a level lower than the waterlock itself does. More likely,
however, it's a gooseneck fitting that is supposed to prevent water
from backflowing into the rest of the exhaust system when you are
heeled or when a wave slaps against the side of the boat. We'll know
for sure when we replace ours and open up the old one (we'll take
pictures). There is a nice diagram of an exhaust system at
http://www.abcpm.co.uk/vetus/exhausts/. We're looking at replacing
the unit with the Vetus gooseneck (http://www.go2marine.com/product.do?
no=84952F, hoping that we got the function right. The Vetus gooseneck
raises the exhaust level to well above the waterline, and also
provides a chamber for water to backflow into.
John - what did your unit get replaced with when you redid the exhaust
system? Did you just raise your exhaust output hoses to the same
height before shooting it out? Or did you put in a different unit?
Donal - we have the Yanmar 4JH3E. I think the picture you have is of
a JH4 series engine. Regardless, just to verify, which is the input
and which is the output on the waterlift? I can't see the company
that did the repower doing it incorrectly as they have a great
reputation, and I would have thought that the engine would have had
issues right out of the gate if so, but it never hurts to check.
Matt - We ran the antisiphon into that cabinet a few days ago. We'll
see if it makes a difference. We like the idea of the "pisser" but
we're not sure we want to put a new thru-hull in. Did you connect it
to an existing thru-hull?
With regards to our engine, we moved the antisiphon from the cabinet
just aft of the engine to the port cabinet with the mysterious
"muffler". Also, with the fact that we're seeing leaks from the
mysterious muffler, we're replacing the unit. We're hoping one of
these two things solves the problems we're having. I still haven't
heard from anyone that has replaced the waterlock muffler just aft of
the bilge. We have no clue as to where we could fit a new muffler on
Pelican if that unit is broken. We're not even sure if we know how to
tell if that unit is broken, or what the best way to open it up is
(we're hesitant to use a sawzall that close to the hull).
Billy - We're currently in Haverstraw NY. We expected to be in
Baltimore right now, but my grandfather passed away a week ago and my
family is only a half hour from here, so we stuck around and missed
our weather window. Now I'm continuing to have issues with my
business and have to spend at least another week in the area
(seriously - anyone know someone who wants to invest in an IT
company?). So... everything is up in the air for the moment. We want
to head south, but my business keeps drawing me back. Baltimore was
supposed to provide us with an easy way to fly to Albany and back
(Southwest), but we have to get there first.
Chris
s/v/ Pelican
www.svpelican.com
Passport 40 #76
Jon Ash
Nov 2, 2009, 7:11:41 AM11/2/09
to Chris - Pelican, Passport Owners
Chris: so much for my memory. I'll look back there this morning to refresh
my memory.
fair winds
my memory.
fair winds
Jeff and Jane Woodward
Nov 2, 2009, 12:29:24 PM11/2/09
to bi...@windwitch.com, Passport List
Good Morning Bill,
We the rebuilt Adagio's "water closet" - The box with a hose in (from the engine) and a hose out (to the muffler). And we replaced the muffler (the stainless steel cylinder behind the portside cabinetry).
The water closet is just a box with a SS pipe in and one out. The in pipe went to the bottom of the box and the out pipe was just attached to the top of the box. Both pipes had become corroded through. We cut the top off the box. Cut the pipes out of the top. Fabricated new tubes out of fiberglass. The new tubes start out 2" diameter and step down to 1.5" or whatever the old SS pipe was. The idea being that if we ever re-power in the future, we can cut back the steps to match the new engine's exhaust specs.
Our SS muffler was rotted out and leaked water. We replaced it w/ a fiberglass muffler made by Vetus. I don't recall the model number. It was a little fatter and a little shorter than the original. And our shipwright had to do a little magic to make it fit in the cupboard.
We did all this w/ the engine out which made access much easier.
As long as we were messing around in that vicinity running hoses etc., we added a second bilge pump to the deep bilge. Ran the pump exhaust hose alongside the new hose to the new muffler. Installed an anti-siphon next to the new muffler. Part of the shipwright's magic act. We lost a couple inches of cupboard space in the magic act. We also added a through-hull for the new bilge pump just above the waterline.
Hope this is helpful.
Jeff
We the rebuilt Adagio's "water closet" - The box with a hose in (from the engine) and a hose out (to the muffler). And we replaced the muffler (the stainless steel cylinder behind the portside cabinetry).
The water closet is just a box with a SS pipe in and one out. The in pipe went to the bottom of the box and the out pipe was just attached to the top of the box. Both pipes had become corroded through. We cut the top off the box. Cut the pipes out of the top. Fabricated new tubes out of fiberglass. The new tubes start out 2" diameter and step down to 1.5" or whatever the old SS pipe was. The idea being that if we ever re-power in the future, we can cut back the steps to match the new engine's exhaust specs.
Our SS muffler was rotted out and leaked water. We replaced it w/ a fiberglass muffler made by Vetus. I don't recall the model number. It was a little fatter and a little shorter than the original. And our shipwright had to do a little magic to make it fit in the cupboard.
We did all this w/ the engine out which made access much easier.
As long as we were messing around in that vicinity running hoses etc., we added a second bilge pump to the deep bilge. Ran the pump exhaust hose alongside the new hose to the new muffler. Installed an anti-siphon next to the new muffler. Part of the shipwright's magic act. We lost a couple inches of cupboard space in the magic act. We also added a through-hull for the new bilge pump just above the waterline.
Hope this is helpful.
Jeff
> From: bi...@windwitch.com
> To: ma...@entelepon.com; pel...@svpelican.com
> CC: Passpor...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Passport] Re: Waterlock Muffler
Bill Schmidt
Nov 2, 2009, 1:02:07 PM11/2/09
to Chris - Pelican, Passport Owners
When we repowered Wind Witch with a Yanmar, we found that the exhaust exit
through the hull was severely restricted (about 3/4" diameter!). We
consulted Yanmar in Chicago, who recommended that the exhaust system be
ideally 3" diameter throughout. So that is what we did. The rebuild of the
waterlift was easy. Cut out the existing pipes, clean off the top of the
fiberglass box and fiberglass new 3" pipes into the enlarged holes. The
mystery gizmo on the port side was refabricated out of new stainless steel
with 3" pipes and a new bronze through hull, also 3' diameter was placed in
the hull. Now there is no back pressure in the exhaust system - which is
what Yanmar said diesel engines love. A Vectus antisyphon valve, located
just beneath the galley counter top, provides a vacuum break for the water
line coming from the heat exchanger and leading to the top of the mixing
elbow.
I think that the "gizmo" also is an antisyphon device of some sort. All
the reading of the waterlift mufflers that I read cautioned how important it
was that the top of the waterlift muffler be below the level of the mixing
elbow or else bad things happen. None of the examples showed a "gizmo", but
I think that it must be analogous to an antisyphon. Can't see why one would
want an exhaust/water separator at this point anyhow (and it doesn't do that
anyway). But there is no air vent valve on the top of the "gizmo", so how
does it work?? It seems to me that if it is a standard waterlift device and
the boat were on a starboard tack when the motor was shut down, the exhaust
would rapidly syphon a huge amount of water into the engine and flood
it...which doesn't happen (I hope!).
Come on all you engineers....explain! Billy Manana
through the hull was severely restricted (about 3/4" diameter!). We
consulted Yanmar in Chicago, who recommended that the exhaust system be
ideally 3" diameter throughout. So that is what we did. The rebuild of the
waterlift was easy. Cut out the existing pipes, clean off the top of the
fiberglass box and fiberglass new 3" pipes into the enlarged holes. The
mystery gizmo on the port side was refabricated out of new stainless steel
with 3" pipes and a new bronze through hull, also 3' diameter was placed in
the hull. Now there is no back pressure in the exhaust system - which is
what Yanmar said diesel engines love. A Vectus antisyphon valve, located
just beneath the galley counter top, provides a vacuum break for the water
line coming from the heat exchanger and leading to the top of the mixing
elbow.
I think that the "gizmo" also is an antisyphon device of some sort. All
the reading of the waterlift mufflers that I read cautioned how important it
was that the top of the waterlift muffler be below the level of the mixing
elbow or else bad things happen. None of the examples showed a "gizmo", but
I think that it must be analogous to an antisyphon. Can't see why one would
want an exhaust/water separator at this point anyhow (and it doesn't do that
anyway). But there is no air vent valve on the top of the "gizmo", so how
does it work?? It seems to me that if it is a standard waterlift device and
the boat were on a starboard tack when the motor was shut down, the exhaust
would rapidly syphon a huge amount of water into the engine and flood
it...which doesn't happen (I hope!).
Come on all you engineers....explain! Billy Manana
Donal Botkin
Nov 2, 2009, 1:12:11 PM11/2/09
to Jeff and Jane Woodward, Passport List
Hi,
There seem to be a couple of thing here that don't make sense to me: if the purpose of the "water-lift" is to lift water, shouldn't the "OUT" come from the bottom of the box? That way the exhaust pressure forces the water up the pipe. Also, stepping down an exhaust pipe changes the back-pressure on the engine--maybe that's what's intended--but certainly will vary from engine to engine. Another problem is what happens to fiberglass in the unlikely event that it encounters a dry (read as "very hot") exhaust? Hmmmm?
It appears that "re-powering" can cause problems in cases where the exhaust manifold is on the "other" side of the engine.
View[+]Finder
Donal Botkin
Nov 2, 2009, 1:19:00 PM11/2/09
to Bill Schmidt, Passport Owners
Billy,
Remember your grade-school science (or, as in my case, running out of
gas in high school): an air bubble at the top of a siphon loop will
break the vacuum. The gizmo is exactly that: exhaust and water comes
in and the water runs out by gravity, leaving "air" in the chamber to
break the vacuum.
View[+]Finder
Remember your grade-school science (or, as in my case, running out of
gas in high school): an air bubble at the top of a siphon loop will
break the vacuum. The gizmo is exactly that: exhaust and water comes
in and the water runs out by gravity, leaving "air" in the chamber to
break the vacuum.
View[+]Finder
Phil Sherwood
Nov 19, 2009, 8:55:42 PM11/19/09
to Passport Owners
I'm looking to put together some sort of partial boat cover for a P40
for the coming rainy season, when I'll be away from the boat. I'd
like to go from just forward of the dodger to just forward of the
mast, which would leave the solar panels uncovered but still allow me
to leave a couple of hatches a bit open for ventilation.
The ready-made polyethylene tarps just aren't available down here --
I've looked high and low -- but I did find some very Sunbrella-like
material in Quito the other day (at half the price of Sunbrella).
Other exotic stuff like those really strong but really bendy tent
rods aren't available either; one has to make do with PVC tubing and
other prosaic stuff. Being of limited imagination, I'm having trouble
figuring something out. Anyone have any design tips or cool tricks
they might suggest, or sources of drawings, etc., on the Web to point to?
Second question: what do you all do to seal the mast at the partners?
I never have been able to get that rubbery wrap-around stuff to seal
very well what with the various obstructions and small spaces into
which things have to get crammed.
TIA for any and all ideas, pointers, etc. Cheers,
Phil
s/v Cynosure
Bahia de Caraquez
for the coming rainy season, when I'll be away from the boat. I'd
like to go from just forward of the dodger to just forward of the
mast, which would leave the solar panels uncovered but still allow me
to leave a couple of hatches a bit open for ventilation.
The ready-made polyethylene tarps just aren't available down here --
I've looked high and low -- but I did find some very Sunbrella-like
material in Quito the other day (at half the price of Sunbrella).
Other exotic stuff like those really strong but really bendy tent
rods aren't available either; one has to make do with PVC tubing and
other prosaic stuff. Being of limited imagination, I'm having trouble
figuring something out. Anyone have any design tips or cool tricks
they might suggest, or sources of drawings, etc., on the Web to point to?
Second question: what do you all do to seal the mast at the partners?
I never have been able to get that rubbery wrap-around stuff to seal
very well what with the various obstructions and small spaces into
which things have to get crammed.
TIA for any and all ideas, pointers, etc. Cheers,
Phil
s/v Cynosure
Bahia de Caraquez
Matt Sponer
Nov 20, 2009, 12:34:26 PM11/20/09
to Phil Sherwood, Passport Owners
Hi Phil,
We had the covered wagon boat cover thing:
http://tinyurl.com/ykhjl9l
This was two tarps with tent poles in them that made them arch up. For
your situation, I think something smaller and lower, that just covers
the coach roof (instead of going all the way to the lifelines) and
made out of electrical conduit would be better. The conduit is much
stronger and can be pre-bent so that it doesn't stress your fabric.
The smaller size is better for leaving the boat unattended, and you
could anchor it to the teak hand holds or the blocks on the deck
instead of the lifelines, which is probably better.
You can prebend electrical conduit very easily by staking it down to
the ground in the bent form you want, then pouring boiling water on
it. Let it cool for a few hours, and then it will keep that shape
forever.
If you want further rigidity, you could use T connectors in the PVC
frame and add a pipe that's running the length of the shade, like
this:
http://www.chromatest.net/Lovemonkey/
Which would also break your bent sections in two, so they would be
smaller to store.
You don't need to sew the fabric or put grommets in it. I think using
the golf balls on the corners or edges is just as good: you wrap the
fabric around the golf ball, then tie the rope around the neck of the
fabric, capturing the golf ball in it. The golf ball keeps the rope
from slipping off. There should be a diagram on the Internet but I
can't find one at the moment, tell me if you don't know what I mean
and I will draw and scan it. There are of course commercial
tarp-clips, which may be hard to find where you are, and some of the
designs are weaker than this method
I think fabric is much better than tarp materials. Tarps don't stretch
at all and so tend to flap and slowly kill themselves in the wind
unless you can tie them down very tight.
Have fun.
Matt.
We had the covered wagon boat cover thing:
http://tinyurl.com/ykhjl9l
This was two tarps with tent poles in them that made them arch up. For
your situation, I think something smaller and lower, that just covers
the coach roof (instead of going all the way to the lifelines) and
made out of electrical conduit would be better. The conduit is much
stronger and can be pre-bent so that it doesn't stress your fabric.
The smaller size is better for leaving the boat unattended, and you
could anchor it to the teak hand holds or the blocks on the deck
instead of the lifelines, which is probably better.
You can prebend electrical conduit very easily by staking it down to
the ground in the bent form you want, then pouring boiling water on
it. Let it cool for a few hours, and then it will keep that shape
forever.
If you want further rigidity, you could use T connectors in the PVC
frame and add a pipe that's running the length of the shade, like
this:
http://www.chromatest.net/Lovemonkey/
Which would also break your bent sections in two, so they would be
smaller to store.
You don't need to sew the fabric or put grommets in it. I think using
the golf balls on the corners or edges is just as good: you wrap the
fabric around the golf ball, then tie the rope around the neck of the
fabric, capturing the golf ball in it. The golf ball keeps the rope
from slipping off. There should be a diagram on the Internet but I
can't find one at the moment, tell me if you don't know what I mean
and I will draw and scan it. There are of course commercial
tarp-clips, which may be hard to find where you are, and some of the
designs are weaker than this method
I think fabric is much better than tarp materials. Tarps don't stretch
at all and so tend to flap and slowly kill themselves in the wind
unless you can tie them down very tight.
Have fun.
Matt.
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