Perkins 4.108 problem
andrew
(El Tiburon) with an original Perkins 4.108M diesel (approximately
3000 hours run time). Sailing the boat on day trips in the Bay were
without difficulty, although we never ran the engine for more than an
hour at a time.
From previous maintenance records, we believe that the engine received
regular routine oil and fuel filter changes. A new Hurth
transmission was installed in ’99 and the valves were adjusted in
’00. Our fuel system has a primary Racor Filter and a secondary
filter located at the lift pump on the engine.
In early October, we left San Francisco for San Diego and beyond.
This would be our first trip with the El Tiburon outside the Bay. In
preparation for the trip, we had our tanks polished and changed the
Racor fuel filter.
During the trip down from San Francisco, the winds were light,
requiring us to operate the motor for hours at a time. The engine ran
well, except for a small problem with overheating at RPM’s greater
than 1800. Typically, our diesel operates at temperatures of 170-180
deg F and uses a raw water cooled heat exchanger.
We noticed that running at speeds greater than 2000 RPM caused the
engine temperature to exceed 200 deg F. Since those engine speeds
didn’t appreciably affect our speed through the water, in the interest
of fuel consumption and keeping the engine cool, we decided to keep
the RPM’s at 1800 or less. This game plan worked fine all the way to
Cabo San Lucas.
In Cabo, we refueled with diesel from a modern looking fuel dock.
With plenty of expensive yachts in the marina, we felt safe to fill
out tanks and chose not to use a pre-filter. Shortly after taking on
70 gallons of diesel, we noticed that the engine would no longer
exceed 1500 RPM when the transmission was engaged in forward. In
contrast, if we shifted to neutral, the motor revved to 3500 RPM with
no difficulty. It was only under propeller load that the engine
failed to meet the desired RPM. Of course, we dove over the side with
masks to ensure that nothing was wrapped around the propeller.
Since the problem began shortly after taking on fuel, we decided to
approach the fuel system first. We changed the Racor fuel filter,
the secondary filter, bled the fuel lines of air, cleaned the air
filter, changed the crankcase oil and filter and restarted the
engine. No change. We checked the transmission fluid and verified
that it was at the proper level. I peered inside the transmission
case with a flashlight and found the fluid to be clear, devoid of dirt
or metal particles.
In examining the exhaust, we observed that in neutral, there seemed to
be a brisk exit of raw water but in forward gear, the raw water output
decreased. Suspecting a clog in the raw water system, we cleaned the
strainer, replaced the raw water impeller, de scaled the raw water
cooled exhaust outlet pipe in muriatic acid and examined all hoses.
We then measured the volume of raw water flow using a 2-gallon bucket
and a stopwatch. At 1200 RPM, whether in neutral or forward gear,
the output of raw water exhaust was exactly the same – approximately
2 gallons in 30 seconds. We also ran the engine bypassing the muffler
to eliminate excessive exhaust back-pressure as a potential problem.
Same results. We pulled the valve cover and checked the valve tip
clearances – all were fine.
By this point, we had learned a ton about Perkins diesel engines and
were fast becoming obsessed with solving the ‘lack of power’ problem.
We pulled all 4 fuel atomizers and delivered them to the local diesel
laboratory. The owner of the lab cleaned the injectors (told us they
were quite dirty) and returned them to us in clean condition. We
installed the atomizers the same day and started the engine. Again,
same problem!
To summarize the symptoms:
1. Lack of adequate power
a. The engine fails to reach desired RPM when operating under load.
b. This problem appeared abruptly without obvious warning signs.
2. Oil consumption
a. Approximately ½ liter in 15-20 hours operation
b. Not sure if this is new or long-standing
3. Moderate amount of grey smoke when operating under load.
Despite the lack of power, the engine:
1. Starts very easily
2. Idles very well without miss-firing of knocking
3. Smooth revving to 3500 RPM in neutral
4. Minimal grayish smoke at idle (definitely not blue or black)
5. Oil pressure in operation runs consistently at 45 psi
6. Engine temperature 180 degrees F at 1500 RPM
7. Good, clean raw water exhaust flow without oil sheen.
What we don’t yet know:
1. What is our compression? Difficult to measure in a diesel without
glow plugs.
2. What is our current fuel consumption?
3. Is the engine getting adequate fuel when under load?
4. Could the engine be overloaded from excessive friction in one or
more cylinders?
At this point, we’re considering a lack of adequate compression to be
the most likely problem – either blow-by from a poorly seated piston
ring, or incompletely seating valves. Of course, we haven’t ruled out
a poorly functioning fuel injection pump, but since these rarely seem
to have difficulties, we’re considering this to have a low
probability.
In deciding what to do next, we’re thinking that the next obvious step
would be to pull the cylinder head and service the valves. This would
then allow us to examine the cylinder walls for excessive wear and
eliminate the valves as a source. And if that doesn’t do it, we’ll
consider a complete rebuild.
If anyone has any ideas about what to do next, we’d love to hear it!
Craig Newton
From your well-written summary my guess is that the two problems are unrelated.
My Perkins 4-108 with 3700 hrs has the same cooling problem as yours. I've checked the easy things, including making sure the intake is free of marine growth, and intend to remove the heat exchanger and exhaust elbow for cleaning or replacement. My boat has an engine-driven reefer compressor. The condenser is cooled by the engine cooling water as it passes between the raw water strainer and the raw water pump. If you have this set up you might check the condenser tubes for restriction, if possible w/o broaching the refrigerant system. The water flow you measured may be sufficient at idle but not sufficient at higher RPMs. We will be interested to know what you find.
There was a similar fuel problem with my engine. But in my case the engine would die after half an hour or so. Without boring you with details what I eventually found was a mass of what looked like fine little hairs plugging the elbow at the top of the fuel tank pickup tube. So it's possible you have some restriction in the fuel line. Short term, you could disassemble the fuel line and blow through it, or long term get a pressue/vacuum gauge for the Racor. While you're focused on this area you might consider installing an electric priming pump. I hate that little lift pump on the engine.
Good luck. Please let us know how you make out.
Craig Newton
P40/Mujo
Michael Dobbs
Best regards, Michael Aquamarine II
From: cne...@earthlink.net
To: aimcdo...@gmail.com; Passpor...@googlegroups.com
CC: johns...@gmail.com
Subject: RE: [Passport] Perkins 4.108 problem
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2010 22:23:40 -0800
Passport Owners Association http://passportyachts.org
To post to the group, use "reply all" or send email to Passpor...@googlegroups.com
To reply to just the author, just use "reply:
For more options, go to
http://groups.google.com/group/PassportOwners?hl=en
Bill Schmidt
John Warren
filter and make sure that it is breathing freely. Several years ago Warren
Peace was down on power and the problem was simply a dirty air filter. Just
something else to check even if it's not the problem.
Take care....
E-mailing from San Carlos, Mexico and getting Warren Peace ready to go back
in the water.
--
ChinaDoll
time and "Power" is controlled by the quantity of fuel correctly
burned. At approximately 22 HP / gallon of diesel (it's close to 32
HP / gallon in Germany with Nitrogen enriching) free wheeling the
engine with no load doesn't require any HP to spin the engine at 3200
RPM. Under a load is were you'll need HP, and that's a different
question.
(A diesel with no load on it will easily spin 3200 and burn 1/8 gal/hr
(2% power) at a fixed throttle setting of full throttle, when governed
to 3200... That same engine will burn 2 gal/hr at 3200 running under a
load at 80% power --for a 4.108. If someone says their 4.108 never
burns more than a gal /hr running full throttle, then they are simply
running all the time a about 50% power. It is that simple.)
A diesel will overheat if it is overloaded and attempts to dump in
more fuel to reach the governor limit than the power/RPM that's
attempted. When over loaded, the engine will blow smoke (dark) that's
seen along with a significant hull streak of 'soot'. Overloading could
be an issue if the boat's prop was setup for operating the boat
lightly loaded --when the tanks are not fully pressed (water, fuel),
and not fully load with people and gear. What type of prop do you have
on the boat?
My friend on Namaste, a Tayana V42, has the 4.108 running now with a
auto-prop on the Hurth transmission. He's has not had an issue like
the one you've described with his installation (NZ and South Pacific
and back 1996-2003, etc) and he runs his boat very fully loaded (dive
compressor, 8 AL 80 tanks, 120 Gal fuel and water, and way too many
tools on board), and I bet it weighs in the sling this V42 possible
10,000 LBS more than a fully loaded P42. Even if he had a 200HP
engine, his boat would not motor much more than 6 knots. His auto-prop
(auto variable pitch) helps him run the 4.108 at best speed for the
load at around 2800 RPM...
To see if your setup is overloading the engine (boat loading / prop
combo), run the boat in gear fully warmed up, at 1200 and note the
speed. Monitor the 'smoke' content from the exhaust and gradually
increase the 'power' up to 1400, check speed and now temp. When you
get a throttle setting were the speed increase seems to stop in both
the RPM and boat speed, back off the throttle slightly. Note the temp
and exhaust color. If this is at 1800 RPM (this is about 22 HP of
power on the 4.108 and close to a gallon/hour burn --under load), see
if the temp is under 200 degrees and the exhaust is fairly smoke free
and not 'steaming'; note the throttle setting / RPM.
(Aside, to see if the boat is overloaded at this speed above, see if
there is a primary wake at only the bow and the stern... If there is,
then you are at the hull speed for the boat's load. This may be much
slower than the 'published' hull speed. Pushing beyond this speed will
overload the engine with ease. In fact, throttle setting to attempt to
go faster will only build a large mound of water behind the boat will
little change in boat speed.)
At this point you will be running 'best' power for the engine. If you
attempted to then add more power and the temp takes off higher, smoke
start showing up in the exhaust, then eventually steaming, the engine
is now overloaded. If you attempted to push the engine hard into the
overloaded region and continued to run it that way, you'll will burn
out the injector tips, egg shape the liners which will increase piston
slap and blow-by with a loss of compression (worn out engine in no
time).
Interesting notes: a restricted fresh water heat exchanger can cause
the raw water pump to load up the engine and large frame 210 AMP
alternator can pull close to 10 HP on a dual pulley belt driven
system. A York 1/2 HP frg compressor can suck nearly 10 HP too out of
an engine... Combined heavy battery load, restricted exchanger, and a
taxed frig, you may only have left barely 20 HP to push an overloaded
boat... Also check to see if the injector pump timing has not
slipped... On most Perkins the pump and block will have a 'timed' mark
that should still be aligned.
Now the question is why is overloaded? And why is it 'now' overloaded?
If there is no shaking then it's not a alignment issue or bad/dirty
shaft/prop... Packing gland too tight? That would have burned out
already...
I was to purchase El Tibron back in ~1997 but someone bet me to the
broker... I bought China Doll a year or so later... Are you still in
Cabo? We are in La Paz. If your in La Paz, we monitor VHF 22a.
HTH,
-Rob.
Jeff and Jane Woodward
Do you have a folding or feathering prop? It's possible that one or more blades are out of alignment and are causing excessive pressure.
Just a couple of thoughts. Good Luck.
Jeff
Adagio
Also in the work yard in San Carlos, MX
> From: jo...@warren-peace.us
> To: bi...@windwitch.com; ker...@msn.com; cne...@earthlink.net; aimcdo...@gmail.com; passpor...@googlegroups.com
> CC: johns...@gmail.com
> Subject: RE: [Passport] Perkins 4.108 problem
Andrew McDonald Ph.D.
Andrew McDonald Ph.D.
We cleaned the air filter (if you can call a metal screen a filter).
Andrew
Chris - Pelican
reversible/feathering prop, do you? We had a similar sounding issue
as you - in neutral, high revs. In gear, low revs with overheating
and inability to get high revs. Our Gori prop has an "overdrive" mode
which gives it a pretty radical pitch. It makes it so that instead of
cruising at 2800-3200rpm's we can get the same speed through the water
at 2200-2400rpm's. The side effect is that when you push up the revs,
it overloads the engine, won't rev past 2500 or so and overheats the
engine. I love it (reduces engine noise) but I hate it (increases
carbon buildup opportunity). Just something else to think about...
Chris
s/v/ Pelican
Passport 40 #76
John Baudendistel
Michael Dobbs, You indicated you would not go to sea with a bullet proof 4.108. I also have the 4.108 in my P42 . As does Perigrine a 42 which has gone around the world, and many P40s have the same engine. There are parts avail worldwide for perkins engines. As Bill S pointed out Michael is having the same lack of power and overheating issue with his repowered Yanmar. My point is that issues can arise with any mechanical engine regardless of make. Perkins have the bullet proof reputation for a reason. ElTiburon has sailed from SF to Hawii several times as well as now to Mexico and much of the Pacific Isl. . Did you have any constructive troubleshootting tips to contribute to ElTiburon in their time of need and reaching out to fellow POA members worldwide? These guys are going about the issue methodically and thouroughly ..they will succeed in time. I HAVE.A Perkins 4.108 also with many ocean miles. Enough said...
John B
P42
-- Passport Owners Association http://passportyachts.org To post to the group, use "reply all" or ...
Michael
To post to the group, use "reply all" or send email to Passpor...@googlegroups.com
John Baudendistel
Phil Sherwood
case it helps. I asked Washo, the local diesel mechanic, who IMHO is
good, about Andrew's problem, and he said it's due to carbon buildup
in the exhaust manifold, analogous to cholesterol buildup in an
artery. The passages through which the exhaust gases pass have become
too constricted to allow the exhaust to escape, thus causing very
high back pressure. That in turn is preventing complete combustion
and preventing the engine from spinning up fully.
Running the engine for long periods while not under load (to charge
batteries, for example) is a leading cause of carbon buildup.
I'm eager to hear back from Andrew, to learn what more he finds and
whether the carbon buildup diagnosis was correct.
You don't have to take the heat exchanger and all that stuff off to
get the fuel injector pump off, at least not on my 4.108. To get at
that third bolt (actually a cap screw), the one closest to the
crankcase, you can use a 5.5 mm or, uhh, 7/32" straight Allen wrench
or hex key, fitted into a socket of the same size, connected to a
couple of 1/4" drive extensions. Work it in between the pump and the
block; it's helpful to have someone holding a flashlight on the
capscrew. Not that hard to do. It's helpful but not necessary to have
a "knuckle" or universal joint connecting the extension(s) to the
socket. With that third bolt out and the various fuel lines
disconnected, you can work the pump aft and out fairly easily, no
bending of fuel lines needed (if they've been removed from the
injectors as well, of course).
It's best to establish the engine timing (ideally when cylinder #1 is
at TDC) before taking things apart, then be sure you don't rotate the
engine. But if the engine somehow gets moved, you can rotate it until
the little hole in the back of one of the pulleys -- can't remember
which one; look on the lower right as you face the engine -- lines up
with the corresponding little pin in the crankcase AND both #1 valves
are closed. If you have the timing case off, you'll also see punch
marks on all four of the drive gears that all are aligned at the same
time if #1 is at TDC.
When you get that little hole in the back of the pulley lined up with
the pin, just unscrew the pin a little bit so that it fits into the
hole and prevents rotation of the engine. If you go as far as
checking the fuel pump timing (you'll have some further disassembly
to do) and find that it's off, when you realign the fuel pump drive
shaft with the mark on the pulley and reinstall the injector pump
such that the mark on the pump and the mark on the flange are
aligned, you'll perforce have set the timing perfectly.
I wouldn't mess around inside the fuel injector pump. I don't see how
doing so could cause all the disaster that the Perkins manuals claim,
but there's not much a lay person can do. Better to take it to a
shop. The place I took mine recently had the thing apart, completely
cleaned, reassembled, and on a testing device to ensure proper output
volume and timing in less than an hour.
How do I know all the above? I recently spent a total of about a day
at the College of Perkins 4.108 Knowledge working alongside the
aforementioned Washo, then spent some time watching and asking dumb
questions at the shop while they rebuilt and tested eight injectors
(I have a spare set) and the pump. Somehow it all made sense in
hands-on mode, even when explained in Spanish, much more so than
trying to decrypt the Perkins manual. And at the end of the tutorial,
Mr. Perkins fired up immediately and ran velvety smooth. The beer
tasted _especially_ good that evening ...
Phil
s/v Cynosure
Bahia de Caraquez
John Baudendistel
They have gone through the heat exchanger and exhaust elbow. No change. John and team I spoke with Brian at BRITISH Marine in Oak. I mentioned everything you have gone through. He believes it is a fuel problem.. ..He suggested 3 things. 1. Did u remove the o ring from the engine and press a new one up into the alum grove before installing the eng filter. It cannot be added to the top of the filter then screwed on as it will not seat correctly. It will cause low power due to the fuel not going where it is suppossed to.
2. Take the 5/8 bleed screw out of the top of the engine fuel filter. If the orafice in it is clogged you will get low power.
3. I mentioned Jeans low power and the repair to the high pressure pump. Brians thinking is that the factory settings would not move. But that the throttle linkage adjustment stops could have. This may have been what was adj on Jeans boat when he had a similar issue. So have the fwd and back stops adj . Prior to removing the pump. Or at least verify that they have not moved or come loose.
Good luck.
John B
On Nov 16, 2010 1:36 PM, "Phil Sherwood" <p...@witanco.com> wrote:
I sent some info I got directly to Andrew but will repeat it here in case it helps. I asked Washo, the local diesel mechanic, who IMHO is good, about Andrew's problem, and he said it's due to carbon buildup in the exhaust manifold, analogous to cholesterol buildup in an artery. The passages through which the exhaust gases pass have become too constricted to allow the exhaust to escape, thus causing very high back pressure. That in turn is preventing complete combustion and preventing the engine from spinning up fully.
Running the engine for long periods while not under load (to charge batteries, for example) is a leading cause of carbon buildup.
I'm eager to hear back from Andrew, to learn what more he finds and whether the carbon buildup diagnosis was correct.
You don't have to take the heat exchanger and all that stuff off to get the fuel injector pump off, at least not on my 4.108. To get at that third bolt (actually a cap screw), the one closest to the crankcase, you can use a 5.5 mm or, uhh, 7/32" straight Allen wrench or hex key, fitted into a socket of the same size, connected to a couple of 1/4" drive extensions. Work it in between the pump and the block; it's helpful to have someone holding a flashlight on the capscrew. Not that hard to do. It's helpful but not necessary to have a "knuckle" or universal joint connecting the extension(s) to the socket. With that third bolt out and the various fuel lines disconnected, you can work the pump aft and out fairly easily, no bending of fuel lines needed (if they've been removed from the injectors as well, of course).
It's best to establish the engine timing (ideally when cylinder #1 is at TDC) before taking things apart, then be sure you don't rotate the engine. But if the engine somehow gets moved, you can rotate it until the little hole in the back of one of the pulleys -- can't remember which one; look on the lower right as you face the engine -- lines up with the corresponding little pin in the crankcase AND both #1 valves are closed. If you have the timing case off, you'll also see punch marks on all four of the drive gears that all are aligned at the same time if #1 is at TDC.
When you get that little hole in the back of the pulley lined up with the pin, just unscrew the pin a little bit so that it fits into the hole and prevents rotation of the engine. If you go as far as checking the fuel pump timing (you'll have some further disassembly to do) and find that it's off, when you realign the fuel pump drive shaft with the mark on the pulley and reinstall the injector pump such that the mark on the pump and the mark on the flange are aligned, you'll perforce have set the timing perfectly.
I wouldn't mess around inside the fuel injector pump. I don't see how doing so could cause all the disaster that the Perkins manuals claim, but there's not much a lay person can do. Better to take it to a shop. The place I took mine recently had the thing apart, completely cleaned, reassembled, and on a testing device to ensure proper output volume and timing in less than an hour.
How do I know all the above? I recently spent a total of about a day at the College of Perkins 4.108 Knowledge working alongside the aforementioned Washo, then spent some time watching and asking dumb questions at the shop while they rebuilt and tested eight injectors (I have a spare set) and the pump. Somehow it all made sense in hands-on mode, even when explained in Spanish, much more so than trying to decrypt the Perkins manual. And at the end of the tutorial, Mr. Perkins fired up immediately and ran velvety smooth. The beer tasted _especially_ good that evening ...
Phil
s/v Cynosure
Bahia de Caraquez
At 09:58 PM 11/15/2010 -0800, John Baudendistel wrote: > > Team ElTiburon, > > Hello. Still thin...
-- Passport Owners Association http://passportyachts.org To post to the group, use "reply all" or s...
Andrew McDonald
Sent from my iPhone