Removing the backstay

[Marty McOmber]

Hi all,

I’m planning to replace the backstay chainplate on my 1984 Passport 40. We will be replacing it with an external plate.

Has anyone removed the chainplate? And if so any advice or words of wisdom?

I have excellent access to the area so cutting it out shouldn’t be too difficult. Seems straight forward but always good to double check.

Thanks!

Marty McOmber

[Kenyon Stewart]

Ben Ward did that on his 47 which I think is about the same as the 40 other than maybe easier access.  This is on my list to do, I'm starting to get gun shy about sailing here in SF!

https://www.wardfamilyadventures.com/post/replacing-chainplates-on-a-passport-47-sailboat

Kenyon

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[Jim Melton]

Marty,

A couple of years ago, a tri-annual survey determined that my backstay
chainplate was sufficiently rusted to require replacement.  I had the
work done at a rigger shop associated with a nearby boatyard (near St.
Pete, FL, Municipal Marina).  It wasn't cheap (a thousand or
thereabouts), but it has made me feel more secure on my P40.

That you have such good access to the area, it will likely cost you a
lot less than it did me, because my boat does not provide that access.

Hope this helps,
   Jim

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Jim Melton SheltieJim at xmission dot com
-------------------------------------------
Owner and Captain:
Passport 40 #018 Dream SeQueL
Co-Owner and Co-Captain
Passport 42 #040 Turtle Blues
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Shelties since 1969; ASSA member since 1992

[Marty McOmber]

Thanks all.

The backstay plate is the only one I haven’t replaced yet. So this is long overdue. The current plan, now that the mast is unstepped, is to cut out the existing chasing plate, cut off the top few inches so it fits below the toe rail, and then reuse it as a backing plate for the new external chainplate. I’ll then plug the cap rail hole with a teak plug.

I’m thinking of fiberglassing in the old plate (now a backing plate) back to the hull, mostly so that the armatures off the plate can help spread any load. This depends on the condition of the plate. Might be a bit of overkill, but it’s only a few more hours of work.

I’m working with Brion Toss Rigging in Port Townsend, WA, to design the new chainplate, which will be made by Allied Titanium, which is located nearby.

That’s the plan so far. Please tell me if any of that sounds stupid.

Marty

Sent from my iPad

> On Oct 1, 2024, at 12:34 AM, Jim Melton <Shelt...@xmission.com> wrote:
>
> Marty,

[Kenyon Stewart]

Marty,

If you are going to leave the old plate in there as a backing plate, couldn't you just instead cut it off right where it goes through the deck and pull the cut piece through from the top?  Cutting stainless isn't easy, but grinding out all that glass is no picnic either, especially if you are just going to put it right back in.  Food for thought...

 It may come down to access too, I know we are spoiled with the 47 as far as having more access and space back there to get at things. 

Kenyon

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[Marty McOmber]

Hi Kenyon,

I have the 40, not 47. But I'm happy to take on a 47 if anyone wants to swap :)

But I do have good access due to modifications in the starboard aft laz. I thought about just cutting it off flush with the cap rail. But I do want to see the condition of the old chainplate after 40 years in fiberglass and to consult with the rigger and my fiberglass guy on the overall design of both the chainplate and the backing plate that can best spread the load.  

Yeah, it won't be fun.  To much itchy itchy work.  

[Michael Moradzadeh]

My broker advised me to sell Cayenne's spinnakers separately from the boat itself.  So, I still have them. And it's time to get them gone

These were used in our illustrious Pacific Cup career.  They fit a Passport 40 and are symmetrical

We have

A lightweight (AIRX 500, like half ounce) spinnaker

a 3/4 ounce spinnaker, nylon, kinda old

and a newer AIRX 700, like 3/4 ounce) spinnaker

The AIRX kites are in very good condition, and the nylon one is in pretty good shape

Offering them here first at better than Minney's prices to our dear Passport family.

Email me to discuss.

Michael

[Kenyon Stewart]

I know you have a 40, I meant "we" as in me :-)   I really want to see your 40 year old chainplate as well.

If you really want to spread the load more, you might build up a larger area with more glass and epoxy.  You could use a mix of triaxial cloth orienting one of the biaxial (45 degree) fibers vertically on the transom and strips of unidirectional glass radiating out from the chainplate area.  One layer of triaxial, then a layer of the unidirectional strips, then another layer of triaxial with the opposite biaxial fiber oriented to the load. Bringing the glass down onto the bottom of the hull should help spread the load more.  You could still use the old chainplate on top of that as a backing plate to distribute compression loads.  Obviously, consult your experts...

Kenyon

[Marty McOmber]

Great advice.  Thanks much, Kenyon.  We will probably go the route you describe and that same sort of layup.  

Sent from my iPad

On Oct 1, 2024, at 11:05 AM, Kenyon Stewart <ken...@sailoutbound.com> wrote:



[Bill Schmidt]

The back stay chain plate (in the original) has a T plate extending out laterally out under the teak combing. Because the chain plate is angled forward and inadequately structured at the bend, it makes a ideal pry bar to lift the back away from the transom....want to know how I know this? The idea of sandwiching new steel in over the crappy old non stainless original just is unbelievably bad ...The rot will just continue. Remember, Wendell was a cheap skate and used low quality materials. Beware.

Billy Manana

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[Marty McOmber]

Bill, 

How far does the T extend out?  

I think what you describe is a good example of why going external with the new chainplate makes sense.  As well as Kenyon's suggestion of beefing up the load distribution around the transom.  And probably my hair brain idea of cutting out the old chainplate just to see how crappy it is :)

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[Brenton Piercy]

I’m in a similar situation. Backstay chainplate is showing its age and needs replacing before i head to down to Baja by the end of the month. Rigger is coming by Friday and we’re formulating a plan. I’ve been thinking of pulling the old one, waterjetting a near duplicate out of SS and some g10 load spreading plates that will be bonded to the transom. Interested to see what you come up with and we can compare notes. 

[Bill Schmidt]

By my recollection, about ~3 inches on each side. Our "new" chain plate is internal with a bracing bar across the bend. It also has an external bracket going over the transom and down to the first through bolt. BTW, the T piece is also incorporated such that it enhances the back brace of the  cockpit. Believe me, nothing is going to bust loose on WW!

[Marty McOmber]

That sounds skookum.  Any chance you have some pictures of the set up?

[Marty McOmber]

Hi all,

I’ll update as I go. After a bit of sleuthing I determined that the T that Billy referred to is indeed there. 

The solution was to remove the section of cap rail around the chainplate. I figure it was built with joints on either side to accommodate this eventuality but it was still a bear to get off. And just when I thought i had succeeded in getting it off intact I discovered that they must have put on the stern pulpit after the toe rail. So I. The end I needed to cut the piece in half to get it off. No worries. It will clean up nice and I can reinstall with a new joint right down the middle of the piece and making it easier for the next dumbass down the line who tries to remove it. 

As you can see in the pic Passport welded a cross bar to the plate and then fastened that into the top of the deck to hull joint. 

Next up will be the joy of trying to remove those scews or probably bolts. I am just going to assume that Passport has another backing plate embedded in the glass below. 

On Oct 2, 2024, at 10:18 AM, Marty McOmber <mmco...@gmail.com> wrote:



[Brenton Piercy]

Man. You got this thing apart right at the same time my rigger was trying to figure out how to get mine loose. Looks like this might have to be a next season fix for me as I've only got a couple of weeks left before my trip. Luckily all the caulking and sealing looked good around my chainplate. We're going to replace the hardware and then just send it. You said you're getting a Ti version made? 

[Brenton Piercy]

Any progress there, Marty?

[Marty McOmber]

Hi Brenton, 

Yes -- or at least I think we have a good plan. I still need to consult on site with my rigger, but I did get a chance to talk with my fiberglass/structural person.  As mentioned before, the backstay chainplate has a welded cross member that is then bolted to an embedded horizontal backing plate under the toe rail.  The tail of the chainplate goes down below the toe rail into the space behind our seat backs. It is in turn thrubolted to another embedded vertical backing plate in the transom. This design is meant to help spread both the horizontal and vertical loads (forward and up) across both embedded backing plates that develop due to the angled nature of our transom and chainplate.  

Since removing the teak, we have access now to the cross member. And our plan is to leave the existing chainplate in place, but cut off the tang above the cross member and grind it flush. Leave the existing cross member in place. Leave the lower portion of the original chainplate in place, al. Leave the embedded transom backing plate in place. Drill out and enlarge the thru-bolt holes in the transom, then plug them with fiberglass and drill proper-sized bolt holes (3/8 as I recall). This will prevent water ingress into the embedded backing plate. Finally, we will make a new external chainplate with its own cross member that will overlap the original cross member.  We will then bolt the new cross member through the original one and into the embedded horizontal backing plate.  We will then thrubolt the new external chainplate through the transom, the vertical backing plate and the old chainplate tail in the transom. That should basically tie the old and new together.  I will then modify and reinstall the teak piece of the toe rail and deal with any cosmetic issues.

We were fortunate in that the embedded plate didn't show any signs of serious delamination or swelling. This setup should seal them all up to prevent future issues as well.

Here are a few pics to help.  Also, I'm attaching a scan of an original drawing that I found that shows each of the embedded backplates in our boats.  You can see the embedded horizontal plate under the toe rail for the backstay chainplate.  

Looking up from below to where the chainplate passes through the toerail. You can just make out the bulge of the embedded backing plate and some really crappy fiberglassing. Not sure if that was just badly done during construction or after. But it isn't due to any of the glass separating due to force. 

   

You can clearly see the welded cross member and its thrubolts.  I'm still trying to get those bolts out without drilling them out.  Giving the Kroil treatment bit more time to see if I can break them out. Worst case I will leave them in place and drill out new holes.  Again, I plan to cut off the top of the chainplate (the tang as I called it), and grid it flush to the cross member.  The new chainplate will have its own cross member that will overlap this one and I will place two threaded bolts to connect all the pieces together. 

Just a picture looking up at what I called the "tail" of the existing chainplate.  You can see the thrubolts are still in place here. You can also see the hump of the embedded backingplate. No signs of any significant issues with the original backing plate, so I'm not going to remove it. 

Hope this is helpful!

If your rigger comes up with a different solution, please share it!

  

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