[Passport] Chainplate Replacement

[Kenyon]

Hi All,
I hope everyone in the Bay Area enjoyed the boat show this weekend. I
went to the rigging seminar Brion Toss put on and talked with him more
at length yesterday as he came out to do a rig tune on a boat at my
marina. He encouraged me to look into something that has been one of
those fears lurking in the back of my head for a while, the dreaded
chainplate crevice corrosion. When I bought Outbound, it was obvious
that the port forward lower had been leaking for some time. I fixed
that, but then started looking at the others and have found evidence
that others have leaked in the past. Many times the chainplates can
be inspected and cleaned, but if I can get those things out of the
boat, I'm having new ones made. Which brings me to the most
interesting part of the discussion with Brion, the part about
materials. Stainless steel has been the material of choice for some
time despite the obvious problems with it. Sometimes Bronze has been
used with better success. Now however, the price of Stainless is
actually higher than the price of Titanium which has obvious
advantages and is what he prefers to use. The local rigger with him
said that he has worked with a very good fabricator to produce them
other customers and that the Passport 47 ones look to be fairly easy
because they are straight with no bend in them,. So this part seems
fairly straight forward, but I am not looking forward to the removal
process. They also said, that with a decent weather window and as
many halyards as I have to steady the thing, that the rig can stay up
in the slip without incident. Anybody done this before?

Thanks,
Kenyon
Passport 47 Outbound

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[George Louis]

I had my starboard forward chain plate replaced. I also had to have a new
knee fabricated since it was so badly deteriorated. Fair weather makes sense
but I know the guy who did mine did nothing special to the mast as I am
aware of. Not knowing how accessible your chain plate is it is hard for me
to comment. I own a P40 and the chain plate that was replaced had easy
access from within the midship locker and all bolts were easily accessible.

GEORGE LOUIS
Wind Thief

[Harvey]

Have any members knowledge of how to access, evaluate and possibly
replace the chainplates on a Huntingford Passport 42? I was recently
looking at one as a possible replacement for our Tayana 37. I liked
the interior and cockpit, but was concerned about various maintenance
issues. I could see solutions to virtually all the obvious issues, but
couldn't figure out how to even see how the chainplates were anchored
to the hull, much less how I might ever remove them for detailed
inspection and replacement. I could see where then entered the deck,
and then disappeared behind teak trim in the cabinets.

My concern was serious enough that I am uncertain about the wisdom of
proceeding with any further evaluation of this lovely boat.

I would appreciate and guidance that other members might give me.

many thanks,
Harvey

[John Baudendistel]

Harvey,

 

Hello.  I have the P42.  The chain plates are integral and fiberglassed into the hull.  They form sort of an 'h".  They are extremely difficult to remove.  I have not heard of any well maintained P42 boats needing a replacement.  One owner did so just because he wanted to.  The deck around the 42 does not have teak around the chain plates and has a fiberglass 'mound' built up around the chain plates.  They are also sealed in.  On the 40's they are more level with the deck I believe.  Let me know if you have other questions.

 

John B.

Dream Keeper

P42

1985

[Gary Wilson]

When we bought our P42, the surveyor inspected one chain plate by removing the teak trim under the deck, inside a cabinet on our starboard side.  The fiberglass covering the chainplate there is a bit translucent, enough to detect any rust color on the embedded chainplate.  Ours showed no sign of deterioration.  He did not want to do any more "demolition" for a pre-purchase survey, but he advised us to periodically expose a different chainplate in the same way to inspect it.

 

On deck, the chainplates emerge from a raised boss that does not allow water to pond around the chainplate.  I rebedded ours at the earliest opportunity and, in digging out the old caulking and sealant, was able to inspect the chainplates down about a half inch.  There was no deterioration and they appear to be embedded (or encapsulated) in some pretty serious sealant, not just fiberglass resin.

 

Our surveyor also commented that if we ever needed to replace the chainplates, they would have to be installed outside the hull rather than the original location.  I guess that would not be all that bad

 

Gary Wilson

P42 Sidetrack

-----Original Message-----
From: Harvey [mailto:hjka...@ucsd.edu]
Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 08:57 PM
To: 'Passport Owners'

Subject: [Passport] Re: Chain plate Replacement

Have any members knowledge of how to access, evaluate and possibly replace the chainplates on a Huntingford Passport 42? I was recently looking at one as a possible replacement for our Tayana 37. I liked the interior and cockpit, but was concerned about various maintenance issues. I could see solutions to virtually all the obvious issues, but couldn't figure out how to even see how the chainplates were anchored to the hull, much less how I might ever remove them for detailed inspection and replacement. I could see where then entered the deck, and then disappeared behind teak trim in the cabinets. My concern was serious enough that I am uncertain about the wisdom of proceeding with any further evaluation of this lovely boat. I would appreciate and guidance that other members might give me. many thanks, Harvey -- Passport Owners Association http://passportyachts.org To post to the group, use "reply all" or send email to Passpor...@googlegroups.com To reply to just the author, just use "reply: For more options, go to http://groups.google.com/group/PassportOwners?hl=en

[Harvey J. Karten]

Hi John,

Many thanks for the information on the chainplates. After sending off my inquiry last night I came across a paragraph in Bob Perry's recent book "Yacht Design According to Perry" in his chapter on Passport Yachts. He speaks highly of the Huntingford Passport 42/Slocum 43. But his comments in that chapter also note that the head of Passport Yachts Wendel Renkin, insisted on modifying the design of many of the marine designers.

"Wendel had a unique hull-to-deck joint detail he insisted on using, and II'll grant him that it was very waertight. However, it involved burying steel into the laminate so that stanchions and other fittings at the deck edge could be tapped into this plate instead  of being through-bolted. This type of detail can be great when the boat is new, but over the years it can make retrofitting new components difficult."

 

Perry's description is certainly consistent with your analysis. The use of embedded chainplates is also a feature of many of the early Ericson construction. My son's Ericson 41 also has embedded chainplates that are virtually impossible to remove for evaluation.

 

On a different aspect of the P42, how easily does it move in light airs (as in Southern California). I have the sense that it is extremely solid and comfortable in big ocean swells.

 

Have there been any serious issues with water pentration into the deck core by the many screws holding the teak decking in place? Did they use plywood in the decks, or was it balsa end-grain embedded in polyester?

 

I noticed that the wiring is all untinned on the boat I saw. Did you find the same condition on your P42 and did you think it necessary to replace it?

 

Any problems with the fuel or water tanks? I know that tanks on the Tayanas, Baba/Tashibas, and many other Taiwanese boats often gave up the ghost after about 20 years.

Many thanks for your help.

regards,

Harvey

 

 

----- Original Message -----

[Kenyon]

In his rigging seminar, Brion Toss was talking with some people who
have an older Ericson and his statement was something like "If they
are glassed in and hard to get at, all the more reason to get at
them". It's not the salt water that causes corrosion, it's lack of
oxygen. Salt water and warm climates speed up the chemical process of
corrosion once started, but the real killer is the lack of oxygen. On
the 40 and 47, it's the side next to the knee, where it goes through
the deck, and the bolts that are in question. On the 42, while
perhaps less prone to leaking because of the deck arrangement, they
are sealed off from getting oxygen which is no bueno. As an aside,
when I pull my chainplates I may modify where they go through the deck
and build something like the 42 has so that water can't stand around
them. According to the numbers, 40% of rig failures are because of
chainplate corrosion. Given the history of my boat and the price of
replacing them on my boat, I think it's well worth my effort for the
peace of mind.

Kenyon

[Barry Kaplan]

There have been instances of bad chainplates on 42's
- http://www.rodiponer.com/sail/001-Replacing_the_chainplates_on_a_Passport_42/

Removing mine and replacing with titanium is on my tasklist for 2010.
I expect I will do something similar as shown in the above link.

- barry.kaplan
- mistress quickly p42

[Barry Kaplan]

Oh, be sure to follow the link at the top of the page: it shows the
bad chainplates.

[Barry Kaplan]

Another p42 chainplate report...

http://forums.hunter.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=116595Owners?hl=en

[John Baudendistel]

Barry,

 

The below is a Passage 42, a Hunter sailboat not a Passport 42.

 

John

[Gary Wilson]

Barry,

 

Thank you for posting this link.  The photos are very informative and they remove a little of the mystery of gaining access to the chain plates.  It is a little confusing that the sailing photos of Mary Francis on their website are of a Passport 40, not a 42.

 

I'm curious about your boat.  Are your going to replace the chain plates because you know they are corroded? If so, how did you inspect them to find out?

 

Gary Wilson

P42 Sidetrack

-----Original Message-----
From: Barry Kaplan [mailto:mem...@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 09:23 AM
To: 'Passport Owners'

Subject: [Passport] Re: Chain plate Replacement

There have been instances of bad chainplates on 42's - http://www.rodiponer.com/sail/001-Replacing_the_chainplates_on_a_Passport_42/ Removing mine and replacing with titanium is on my tasklist for 2010. I expect I will do something similar as shown in the above link. - barry.kaplan - mistress quickly p42 -- Passport Owners Association http://passportyachts.org To post to the group, use "reply all" or send email to Passpor...@googlegroups.com To reply to just the author, just use "reply: For more options, go to http://groups.google.com/group/PassportOwners?hl=en

[Barry Kaplan]

> I'm curious about your boat. Are your going to replace the chain plates because you know they are corroded?
> If so, how did you inspect them to find out?

I don't know the condition of my chainplates, and that's enough of a
problem for me. I consider the chainplate design one of very few
design/build failures of the P42. (ie, That they cannot be inspected.)

First I am going to remove the teak and expose the glassin
chainplates. My plan is do this so that I can replace the teak. I've
already exposed the upper part of the aft lower by prying off the teak
cover. From what I tell it looks to be in good shape, but its really
so hard to tell thru the glass. Someone recommended that I drill just
below the chainplate to see if any water comes out. Good idea I think.

From what I tell in the pictures above, it looks like the break was in
the part of the chainplate thats enclosed in deck. I consider this
area the most likely to have issues. But to inspect that, the whole
chainplate needs to removed.

-barry

[ChinaDoll]

Actually, lack of oxygen is not the cause of crevice corrosion. That
would be to say if you vaccum bagged a piece of metel cutting off
oxygen, it would corrode? I don't think so.

On Apr 21, 9:52 am, Kenyon <ken...@sailoutbound.com> wrote:
> In his rigging seminar, Brion Toss was talking with some people who
> have an older Ericson and his statement was something like "If they
> are glassed in and hard to get at, all the more reason to get at
> them".  It's not the salt water that causes corrosion, it's lack of
> oxygen.  Salt water and warm climates speed up the chemical process of
> corrosion once started, but the real killer is the lack of oxygen.  On
> the 40 and 47, it's the side next to the knee, where it goes through
> the deck, and the bolts that are in question.  On the 42, while
> perhaps less prone to leaking because of the deck arrangement, they
> are sealed off from getting oxygen which is no bueno.  As an aside,
> when I pull my chainplates I may modify where they go through the deck
> and build something like the 42 has so that water can't stand around
> them.  According to the numbers, 40% of rig failures are because of
> chainplate corrosion.  Given the history of my boat and the price of
> replacing them on my boat, I think it's well worth my effort for the
> peace of mind.
>
> Kenyon
>
> --

> Passport Owners Associationhttp://passportyachts.org

[Gary Wilson]

>>>> I don't know the condition of my chainplates, and that's enough of a problem for me. I consider the chainplate design one of very few design/build failures of the P42. (ie, That they cannot be inspected.) First I am going to remove the teak and expose the glassin chainplates. My plan is do this so that I can replace the teak. I've already exposed the upper part of the aft lower by prying off the teak cover. From what I tell it looks to be in good shape, but its really so hard to tell thru the glass. Someone recommended that I drill just below the chainplate to see if any water comes out. Good idea I think. From what I tell in the pictures above, it looks like the break was in the part of the chainplate thats enclosed in deck. I consider this area the most likely to have issues. But to inspect that, the whole chainplate needs to removed. -barry <<<<<

I can understand your concern about the unknown.  In your demolition process, perhaps you will discover a way to expose all parts of the chainplates for inspection.  Please let us know how it goes.

Gary Wilson P42 Sidetrack

[Michael Moradzadeh]

I have pulled my chainplates twice on my 1984 passport 40 and am pleased to report no corrosion or cracking.

This may have to do with them not being glassed in, or, frankly, sealed well at all.  But no corrosion, so that's a good thing.

Michael