P42 [Passport] Chainplate replacement

[John Baudendistel]

Robert,

It would be super if you could document the process.  I know that Barr Kaplan of Mistress Quickly as well as I will eventually tackle this job,  We both have P42's.  Barry is a bit more experienced with some rebedding and core issues aaround the windlass switch.  Take lots of photos.  My understanding was that all the chainplates were glassed in and that wood glasssed knees were not part of the design,  I don't recall Rob discussing Knees on China Doll.  So we would be interested in your findings, 
John and Laurel
P42

John Baudendistel
Cell 925.766.0942
jo...@ets247.com

On Apr 29, 2012 6:31 PM, "San Diego Viking" <sandieg...@gmail.com> wrote:

Been Hard at work removing two of my chainplates in a P42. worst thing
i have had to do to my boat yet. old chainplates are fiberglassed in
place in a kinda H shape similar to china doll's. had to cut out the
lovely teak backs, of the salon cabinets to access them. two plates on
starboard were right at cabinet bulkheads. very depressing. used a
Rigid Multitool to cut out the fiberglass covering. found that you
must use the metal and wood saws, as the wood only blades turn into
scraper blades far to quickly. while cutting out the chainplates i hit
3 pockets of water on the starboard plate, and 5 on the port. nasty
black ooze drained out. when i finally got the plates off the port
side the knee was all black on the bottom. tried to drill drainage
holes but the wood was way to spongy or rotten. even the wood that
initially looked ok on both sides was spongy, i could almost push the
drill bit in without pulling the trigger. i then cut one of the
fiberglass sides of the knee on both sides and they pretty much just
fell out. obviously these were not installed correctly and
fiberglassed on every side, one of the knees did not even go all the
way to the deck and had a gap of about 2". the wood looks like fir,
but its so bad i cant be sure.
its a simple job to replace them, but i need to know what wood i can
use to do so. should i go get some blocks of fir, Mahogany, or would
Oak be a better choice? what about replacing it all with a block of
G10 Fiberglass epoxied into place? i have a decent piece of oak that
may be about the right size. not sure which way to proceed here.

Thanks

Robert

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[San Diego Viking]

i have taken several pictures, and will endevour to take more. been difficult to stop and grap the camera with dirty hands.  honestly i am not sure i am using the right term. its the angled block that backs the chainplate when it transitions from the hull and angles up though the deck.  http://www.rodiponer.com/sail/001-Replacing_the_chainplates_on_a_Passport_42/Chain%20Plate%20008.shtml, this picture shows exactly what i am talking about. its the wood part behind the angle. normally covered in glass. i found a lot of void space in there in mine. i had originally noticed some small rust spots on the gellcoat next to the rub rail. we had thought it may be froom the screws holding the rub rail on. after i deployed (about 7 months) we took it out a few times, and then i redeployed, another 6 months. when i got back in june, we took it out a couple times including one spirited adventure with 25k+ gusts with full sail where i learned how to reef. it was after this winter that we noticed the rust spots were getting really bad, and i realised they were in line with the chain plates and rigging. as it always goes, once i started to really look, i noticed that all the plates on the port side were raised between 1/16 and 1/8", and some of the gelcoat around the plate where it exits the deck was cracked. my turnbuckles on the port side have about 1.5" showing inside, while the starboard side barely has 1/2". i had a rigger survey and tune the rig before i moved it from berkley so maybe it was adjusted too tight then combine with the southern run. i decided to takel this project based on how easy it looked at http://www.rodiponer.com/sail/001-Replacing_the_chainplates_on_a_Passport_42/index.shtml. The problem is that while the concept is fairly easy the fibreglass is tougher than the pictures allow for. i also found that Rodiponer is a newer passport with a regular stern, while mine has the canoe stern and the chainplates are like China Doll's. this made things difficult to cut out. i went through 5 wood plunge blades on the multi tool in about 30 Min (along with lots of colorful language) before i realised i needed the tougher metal blades. i posted this question on Brian Toss's Forum as well. he suggested that G10 would make a good knee. i am going to use Allied Titanium to make my chain plates and hardware. i intend to throu bolt them with titanium hardware and use a sister plate on the exterior of the hull. i will use a 1.5" strap with no anchors, as i wont be glassing this back in. this is more expensive but trust me i only have two out so far and its a pain, i do not want to have to do this ever again, but in the slight chance i do, i want it to be much easier than i have it now, and have the ability to inspect them if i ever had any concerns. a plus side for all the other passport 42 owners, once i have the parts drafted, they will be in the allied titaniums catalog, so it should be much easier for anyone else on this path. i was thinking about documenting this process in a PDF. it would be nice if we could upload files, as i also have some of the old brochures and paperwork.

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[John Baudendistel]

Do not all P42's have a canoe stern.  Mine is 85 and is canoe.  Ihave not heard or seen a P42 WITH ANYTHING DIFFERENT.

John Baudendistel
Cell 925.766.0942
jo...@ets247.com

On Apr 29, 2012 10:34 PM, "San Diego Viking" <sandieg...@gmail.com> wrote:


i have taken several pictures, and will endevour to take more. been difficult to stop and grap the camera with dirty hands.  honestly i am not sure i am using the right term. its the angled block that backs the chainplate when it transitions from the hull and angles up though the deck.  http://www.rodiponer.com/sail/001-Replacing_the_chainplates_on_a_Passport_42/Chain%20Plate%20008.shtml, this picture shows exactly what i am talking about. its the wood part behind the angle. normally covered in glass. i found a lot of void space in there in mine. i had originally noticed some small rust spots on the gellcoat next to the rub rail. we had thought it may be froom the screws holding the rub rail on. after i deployed (about 7 months) we took it out a few times, and then i redeployed, another 6 months. when i got back in june, we took it out a couple times including one spirited adventure with 25k+ gusts with full sail where i learned how to reef. it was after this winter that we noticed the rust spots were getting really bad, and i realised they were in line with the chain plates and rigging. as it always goes, once i started to really look, i noticed that all the plates on the port side were raised between 1/16 and 1/8", and some of the gelcoat around the plate where it exits the deck was cracked. my turnbuckles on the port side have about 1.5" showing inside, while the starboard side barely has 1/2". i had a rigger survey and tune the rig before i moved it from berkley so maybe it was adjusted too tight then combine with the southern run. i decided to takel this project based on how easy it looked at http://www.rodiponer.com/sail/001-Replacing_the_chainplates_on_a_Passport_42/index.shtml. The problem is that while the concept is fairly easy the fibreglass is tougher than the pictures allow for. i also found that Rodiponer is a newer passport with a regular stern, while mine has the canoe stern and the chainplates are like China Doll's. this made things difficult to cut out. i went through 5 wood plunge blades on the multi tool in about 30 Min (along with lots of colorful language) before i realised i needed the tougher metal blades. i posted this question on Brian Toss's Forum as well. he suggested that G10 would make a good knee. i am going to use Allied Titanium to make my chain plates and hardware. i intend to throu bolt them with titanium hardware and use a sister plate on the exterior of the hull. i will use a 1.5" strap with no anchors, as i wont be glassing this back in. this is more expensive but trust me i only have two out so far and its a pain, i do not want to have to do this ever again, but in the slight chance i do, i want it to be much easier than i have it now, and have the ability to inspect them if i ever had any concerns. a plus side for all the other passport 42 owners, once i have the parts drafted, they will be in the allied titaniums catalog, so it should be much easier for anyone else on this path. i was thinking about documenting this process in a PDF. it would be nice if we could upload files, as i also have some of the old brochures and paperwork.

On Sunday, April 29, 2012 8:52:07 PM UTC-7, John Baudendistel wrote: > > Robert, > > It would be s...

[San Diego Viking]

i had thought so, and naturally assumed so when i read this post from http://www.rodiponer.com/sail/001-Replacing_the_chainplates_on_a_Passport_42/index.shtml about the S/V Mary francis. there is one picture of their chain plate replacement of the exterior with the rub rail, that's a dead ringer for my boat. looking back through their site now the boat does not look the same, there is no rub rail and it looks more like a p40. curious. however it is similar enough that their chain plate replacement pictures have help considerably.

[John Baudendistel]

Some 40's came stock with a rub rail.  P40's by design do not have glassed in chain plates.  There is posting mix ups.  P40s have long knees and the chain plates are bolted.  The pictures are of a 42 fr inside.

John Baudendistel
Cell 925.766.0942
jo...@ets247.com

On Apr 30, 2012 8:19 PM, "San Diego Viking" <sandieg...@gmail.com> wrote:

i had thought so, and naturally assumed so when i read this post from http://www.rodiponer.com/sail/001-Replacing_the_chainplates_on_a_Passport_42/index.shtml about the S/V Mary francis. there is one picture of their chain plate replacement of the exterior with the rub rail, that's a dead ringer for my boat. looking back through their site now the boat does not look the same, there is no rub rail and it looks more like a p40. curious. however it is similar enough that their chain plate replacement pictures have help considerably.

On Monday, April 30, 2012 7:24:08 PM UTC-7, John Baudendistel wrote: > > Do not all P42's have a ca...

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Passport Owners Association http://passportyachts.org To post to the group, use "reply all" or send ...

[ChinaDoll]

I can see some confusion here with the post from Mary Francis. The
photos shown were from a Slocum 43 that I believe became Sea Biscuit
(was last owned by Steve in Hawaii but was recently sold to a new
owner in La Paz / San Carlos MX). The Slocum 43 is a Stan Huntingford
Passport 42 that was built at another yard after Stan had a falling
out with Passport Yachts (as PYK canceled both the 51 and 42) on the
outsides of the P42 mold.

The technique done for the chainplates, on the S43, were the same as
the P42/P51, and the rubrail shown in the photos with the chainplate
bolts under them, are the same. Note that you do not have to drill
those big holes in the rub rail to get at the bolts... The rub rail
can be partially removed, and if properly managed, can be held up to
expose the bolts heads without damaging the wood. (See my earlier
posts showing photos of the job on China Doll. The pics are on Picasa
--search for 'China Doll Chainplate Project.')

[There is very little you can tell apart from a casual look when
comparing the S43 to the P42, as both are the same design with the
same sterns and very similar hardware... I was told that the S43 was
built on the outsides of the P42 mold design, as the yard did an
outside layup process, unlike the PYK yard.]

When the chainplates were done on Sea Biscuit, the owner at that time
used a very high chromium / nickel content stainless steel from Sweden
that was water-jet cut from 1/2 inch plate. The metal and cutting
together for those plates totaled more than getting the Ti6Av plates
fabricated, in today's prices, for China Doll, in China. Most of the
stainless plates that I came across in the states, the supplier would
not certify the metal, and one even admitted the metal was Chinese
sourced 316. It was being sold as 316L with only an indication the
metal was 18% chromium and 10% nickel, with no certs, which is really
10-18 stainless.

The biggest problem to getting good stainless, right now, is the heavy
speculation on metals, driving up the prices, not just gold and
silver, but chromium, nickel, etc. The nice thing about Ti is there's
very little futures being done on the metal, along with lowered cost
for processing and forming the metal, and with the decline of the
military needs, and the fact Ti is one of the most abundant metal ore
sources for processing into metal. But the nice thing about Ti6Av is
it isn't fudgeable like 316, because grade 5 Ti can only be made one
way, and not like stainless steel, where you have no idea what you are
getting unless you go for the really good stuff, like the 22% chromium
with molybdenum, like water-jet cut Swedish stainless steel or one of
the "branded" ones, like Nitronic 50, Aquamat, etc.

So the costs of going with Ti wasn't more, it was less than water-jet
cut certified Swedish stainless steel, for the 1/2 inch plates that I
needed. And you can mix stainless with Ti as Ti is not active (see the
galvanic charts as there are two numbers for stainless steels but only
one for Ti) which allow Ti and stainless to be mixed in application --
little or no ionic activity in formed Ti. That can allow you to use
stainless bolts in Ti applications.

-Rob.

[ChinaDoll]

[Ian Macrae]

For the historian(s), Mary Francis was a P40. She is now in called
Fai Yin.

On May 1, 1:21 pm, John Baudendistel <j...@ets247.com> wrote:
> Some 40's came stock with a rub rail.  P40's by design do not have glassed
> in chain plates.  There is posting mix ups.  P40s have long knees and the
> chain plates are bolted.  The pictures are of a 42 fr inside.
>
> John Baudendistel
> Cell 925.766.0942

> j...@ets247.com
>
> On Apr 30, 2012 8:19 PM, "San Diego Viking" <sandiegovik...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> i had thought so, and naturally assumed so when i read this post fromhttp://www.rodiponer.com/sail/001-Replacing_the_chainplates_on_a_Pass...

> the S/V Mary francis. there is one picture of their chain plate
> replacement of the exterior with the rub rail, that's a dead ringer for my
> boat. looking back through their site now the boat does not look the same,
> there is no rub rail and it looks more like a p40. curious. however it is
> similar enough that their chain plate replacement pictures have help
> considerably.
>
> On Monday, April 30, 2012 7:24:08 PM UTC-7, John Baudendistel wrote: > > Do
>
> not all P42's have a ca...
> --
>

> Passport Owners Associationhttp://passportyachts.orgTo post to the group,

[Bill Schmidt]

I knew Mary Francis. Mary Francis was a friend of mine. You, Passport 42s,
are no Mary Francis....you may be a Fai Yin. I don't know about that.
Billy Manana

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> Passport Owners Association http://passportyachts.org

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> Passpor...@googlegroups.com

[Ennis William]

Hello, all,

Wings is on the hard in San Carlos, MX and we noticed while looking up at her caprails that we need to re-caulk the caprail/hull joint on the outside. If you've done this, what did you use? If not, what do you recommend?

I hate using 5200, but perhaps 4200 might do. Thought?

Thanks,

Bill Ennis
S/V Wings
P40 # 78

"Do, or do not. There is no try." Yoda

[John Baudendistel]

Hi Bill,  I would use Sikaflex 101 or 201 or a quality polysulfide.

John Baudendistel
Cell 925.766.0942
jo...@ets247.com

[Brian Moloney]

How about 4000 UV? Stays white in the sun...

Brian

[San Diego Viking]

A quick update. i have the mast up so i can only do one or two chain plates at a time. pulled my port side intermediate, and starboard aft lower. this is a difficult job. the pictures made it look easy to peel the fibreglass, in my case this isn't so.

i used a ridgid electric multitool. this uses a mounting system that can use the expensive fien blades directly, this was my requirement as i want to use the teak deck caulking removal blade later. fien was just to expensive, the rigid also has different heads including an impact driver that has been very handy. i got the 120v corded version as i hate dealing with batteries on long projects. i did work this tool heavily and the motor was too hot to touch a couple of times, so maybe the fien would have been better for that. i found you MUST use the metal/wood blades. the wood only ones turn into scrapers within 5-10 minutes on the hard fibreglass. i used 6 or 7 blades getting two chain plates out.

the multi tool made the work tolerable, it also was thin enough to make short work of getting the backs out of the cabinets to access the chainplates.  it took about a full day getting the two chain plates out, just keep working it, is really what works. i tried to get measurements for the chain plate holes but you simply can not do it without removing the rub rail to take the measurements from the bolt. the rubrail was also difficult, took a while before i found out the correct way to remove the screws. tried every method I found in books or online. ultimately i used a 1/4" forsner bit to uncover the screw and then use a screw extractor to remove the screw. i spent 2 weeks trying other methods to get maybe 10 screws out, using the screw extractor it took a couple hours to completely remove ALL the screws. of course the rubrail is covered in a thick coating of 3m 5300 never remove. used 6 chisels and screwdrivers driving them into the caulking from the top every few inches. i then pounded a good metal scraper in to cut the caulking in between until it loosened enough. once i was able to get far enough down i put a broom handle in between the rub rail and the hull. this really did the trick and made things move forward quickly. took about a full day to remove the rub rail. it just would keep moving everything down as it got loosened up. i lost 4 good chisels in this process. with the likelyhood of losing them over the side very high and with all the abuse i gave them, get some from harbor frieght

the rub rail has pockets cut out over where the bolts are. big pockets for what they are covering. everyone was waterlogged in that area. had teak tea draining out down the hull as I worked the rub rail off. i finaly got the bolt out. it was very corroded in the middle. in retrospect the signs of rust were definitely water leaking down the chainplate into the bolt, the chain plate doesnt look to horrible, and maybe could have lasted several years. but as i couldn't tell for sure, i am happy with my decision to start this project. i will slow down and not rush into the remaining chain plates though, which should spread the funds out better.

on measuring for the holes i am using the old plates as templates. i came up with putting the old chainplate on the side of the hull backwords (IE so the bend points away from the hull), and putting the bolt through to pin it in place. I then marked the upper and lower parts of the rubrail wher it meets the hull. from those lines i marked the holes. i am using 5 bolts through the hull. the top one was 3/4" from the top rub rail line. the next one down is about 2-5/8" from the bolt, and i located it 1" below the lower rub rail line. the bottom hole was located 1" from the bottom of the chain plate. i split the distance between the bottom and the lower rubrail hole into two, or about every 1.5".

after marking the holes it took the old plate to a machine shop with a drill press and had them drill 1/8" initial holes in the correct positions. if i messed up my measurements 1/8" is easier to fill than 1/2". i bought a 12" x 1/8" drill bit at home depot and put the chain plate back into position, bolting it into place. finally tonight i very timidly drilled my 1/8" holes throu the hull. my heart was in my throat the whole time. everything worked out perfect however. i am going to have the upper hole re drilled about 1/8" or more higher. but everything was spot on. i have a limited space above the rub rail so i found I have a little bit of room to bring the hole up, and make putting everything back together easier.

now that my pilot holes are drilled, i can use a forsner bit on the inside to remove an area around the bolt hole. if i have core in that are i will know after the first hole. this is not to drill all the way thru so i am going to have to get a depth stopper or something. i will fill with epoxy and re drill at 1/8". IF everything works out then i will take the plate back to the machine shop for the correct size holes. i will use 1/2" below the rub rail, and 3/8" above. there will be two lag bolts into the angle as well. should be very secure. 

the other good news now that I have the initial pilot holes drilled. the area is mainly flat and there really isnt a curve. i will easily and cheaply be able to use flat stock for the sister plate. this alleviates a large pain of trying to make a template that matches the curve. as such i will use simple aluminium flat bar stock to make a template of the sister plate. i will send the sisterplate template, and old chainplate to allied titanium for thier measurments, and convert them to a cad drawing. the chain plate has two bends, and they are not distinct enough for my skill set to measure. so i will leave that part to the pros. i will cut off the  anchors that were welded to the chain plate though.

having a little trouble deciding how to put the rub rail back on. thinking about filling the cavities where the bolts were hidden with an epoxy wood flour mix. tempted to epoxy the whole damn thing onto the side of the boat, and be done with it, but i am likely going to paint the hull in the future, and that would make things difficult. overall while this is difficult its not that bad either. the chainplate wasnt as bad as i thought (so far) but the water pockets i found in the fibreglass around the plate, the soaked knees/angles, and the severely corroded bolts make this very beneficial to my ability to sleep at night.

i have enclosed a few pictures, but will have to wait until I get the rest off my phone to upload.

[San Diego Viking]

Hello all. 

I wanted to give an update on what happened with my chain plates, so when you do the same you have an idea of what’s involved. I am still trying to locate and consolidate all my photos of the process, but ill upload them once i do. I hope this helps you. During the months of deployment I saved up as much as possible, in preparation for the boatyard and much delegated maintenance. I took the second post deployment leave in order to give myself time to order supplies, schedule last minute tasks etc. I came back from deployment March 2019. I went on leave in April and hauled the boat at Driscoll’s Boat Yard, Mission Bay (San Diego California). Don’t do work at Driscoll’s! But I will get into that later. Important note, I tried to get one of the local rigging shops but the date I was returning from deployment/leave and the spring fitting of the large fishing party boats and sailing race fleet, i was unable to secure those services.

 Driscoll’s Mission Bay does not do any work other than bottom paint, cranes and haul out. They refer you to their onsite contractors who have offices and workshops on premises. I don’t remember the company name as you pay via the boat yard. In preparing and thinking out solutions previous to haul out, I had written that my plan was to cut the rub rail mount at the chain plates and install new chain plates on the exterior while leaving in the glassed in originals as washers to spread the loads. I had even made thin plywood templates of the exterior hull and sent them to a fab shop prior to deployment. This was advised against. So in fact we returned to the original plan of cutting out the chain plates from the glass, and bolting back in the original spot with sister plates on the exterior. Ultimately I feel this was the better solution that looked the best, without changing any rigging loads.

The yard was really busy with the racing fleet when I was hauled, so they brought me the quote 5 days after hauling out (part of that was the weekend). As I was limited on time (while on leave) I ground off all my thru hulls, and unable to go back into the water. The quote was over double of what I was quoted by rigging companies prior to deployment, which included brand new chain plates. I’m not going to say they didn’t do the job or that it wasn’t a decent job. I’m just saying when you look at all the details, the tasks I had to do to keep the price down the quality wasn’t worth the $16k they stuck me for. In order to bring costs down I: (A) had to grind out the old chain plates, (B) had to cut off the anchor tabs welded on the chain plates and polish them up for reuse (C) had to reuse the old chain plates.    

[San Diego Viking]

having trouble uploading pictures

[San Diego Viking]

Thankfully the chain plates were still good. On the plus side since passport 42 plates are glassed in and I was switching to a bolt on setup, this allowed me to use my old plates as sacrifices with regards to the hole patterns and overall setup. Yes it still irritates me but I made it work. In prior posts on this forum/group I pulled out 2 of my plates to inspect and figure out how to replace. At that time I used a ton of multi tool blades and the majority of a 3 day weekend to pull 2 plates, the interior teak, bulkheads and shelves inside around the plates. For removing the remaining plates it was all grinder all the time. A huge mess!

While the glass covering came off really quick I also ran into a lot of issues. Port side forward lower stay had the anchor underneath the bulkhead to the head. There is no way to get that pulled out other than grinding out part from inside the head. So I had to grind through and cut off the anchor right at the bulk head. This plate was also one of the most miserable of the lot. There was barely room to run the grinder without messing up any of the cabinetry. I didn’t cut out all the bulkheads in those cabinets on port side. Also the smaller more confined space both overloaded the vacuum more and blew fiberglass dust into my face overwhelming my mask and goggles. i hade to stop every few minutes and go get fresh air and let the dust settle. Pure misery! The port side in general was a pain as I didn’t cut out all the bulkheads which restricted movability of the grinder. Grinding out the plates took 2 full days, and several deep grinder cuts in my hands.

[San Diego Viking]

The contractors came in after me to do some finish grinding and prepare the spots for glasswork. The foam core had to be cut out to the outer skin. The resulting hole was filled with good glass and resin. They used some G-10 plate to provide a strong flat surface for the chain plates. Every one of the wood knees under the deck that supports the angle portion of the plate was soaked and soggy. It was so weak I could push a pen into it without any force, and I wondered if it was balsa. I had them replace it with G-10 fiberglass plate. After those were glassed in place they used gelcoat to coat the entire inside surface. They told me this is in case there is a leak, the water won’t have any way to get into the glass strands and cause damage that way. I won’t complain as it looks really good. At some point I will recover with teak and plywood as original.

Now that the interior glass is ready they started working on the hole patterns. I looked at other boats and did a lot of research to get an estimate of how many bolts to use. Contractors confirmed. To ensure straight bolts they measured from the outside and drilled in. my original plan was to do this all myself before i realized how difficult it was going to be to drill from the inside and get straight holes and symmetrical patterns outside. As much as I ended up spending on this I’m still glad I had them do it.

I had them make the spots for the plates and bolt holes roughly 3” lower than the original plates, for when I actually replace them. The last bolt holes just miss the bottom of the plates. There was a glassed in wood beam at this location and the intention is to lengthen the final plates slightly, for increased strength. Once the holes patterns were drilled than they fabricated the stainless sister plates for the outside of the hull. While they did grind through the foam core and fill these spots with glass, these sister plates should spread the load out as a backup to ensure nothing gets damaged in heavy weather. Bending these to match the hull curve wasn’t necessarily easy so again I’m glad this was done by the contractors. These do look good and were a good decision.    

[San Diego Viking]

Now that it’s completed there were several issues that I’m not entirely happy with. One of the sister plates and bolt holes is slightly lower than the others on one side, which I know is a minor thing and won’t affect the rigging or strength. They used un-tinted white gelcoat for the interior and deck. While pure white inside the interior cabinetry isn’t a big deal at all, I was rather irritated to see the same on deck, especially since they didn’t ask. I did ultimately accept this as I wanted to be finished at this point and I will have to repaint or gelcoat later at some point. Very irritating was having to use my original chain plates. They were inspected and found to be good, and they did end up being helpful with determining holes for future replacement plates. But they’re already 30 years old and I had to polish them with a flap disk on a grinder to 400 grit. Not electro polish or anything finer. This mean I have to expect a very limited life before they corrode at best. The rigger shops I had contact 8-9 months before had not included new chain plates as part of their quote, but they had a separate quote for water jet plates for $800. Driscoll’s and their contractor did not have a similar service, and the sister plates were hand fabricated by hand for $3140 (including install labor). Their quote for new chain plates was over $2000, also hand fabricated and wouldn’t have been electro polished for corrosion resistance and a long life at sea. Another issue i corrected here in Virginia, is the upper bolt holes that go through the rub rail mount. Its encapsulated wood (looks like teak), so when they installed the chainplates and torqued these bolts the wood has compressed and cracked the gelcoat/fiberglass. I ended up having to make G-10 circle blocks, drill through the outer glass and wood with a forsner bit and epoxying them into the spot, so there won’t be any more compression. This was upsetting as while the cracks weren’t big and on a surface that would be covered by the rub rails, eventually the cracks would get bigger, the bolts looser, and water would start wicking into the crack between the glass and gelcoat. Something that should have easily been noticed. Ultimately I roughly paid almost double for this job for what I consider to be far less quality. Chain plates and associated glass work was $12,410.

The biggest issue was the amount of time and extra money associated with time that this took to complete. I never paid the contractor direct. I paid the boat yard, the boat yard paid the contractor. There has been a big shift in southern California with boat yard prices as they increasingly cater to large racing boats, mega yachts and commercial fleet (who doesn’t have a choice due to coast guard regulations and inspections). They have reduced liability, and increased profit by using these 3rd party contractors. Essentially the boat yard doesn’t do the work, which would typically eliminate their Lay days for every day they work on your boat. The contractors do the work so the boat yard charges you lay days. They really heavily push these contractors on you.  Driscoll’s gives a “discount” of 1 lay day for every 6 hours the contractor works on you boat. Additionally they double charge for the mast as a separate lay day/storage fee, keep in mind it was under the boat and not taking up any additional space.

Ultimately I paid $12,340 to the boat yard in addition to the chain plates, the majority of which was for lay days. Keep in mind that this was all worked out to get done with a 2 week leave period. They continually delayed or reduced the personnel working on my boat, to give priority to the race boats. I ended up finally getting into the water in July, 2 months later. I did make them reduce the lay day cost by $2000 after I threw a fit over the lay days/vs unnecessary time it was taking to work on the boat.

This doesn’t include the work I did on the mast which I did manage to get one of the rigging shops out to do. While in the yard I received orders to Virginia, and had the boat trucked over in February this year. For a price comparison, the boat has been in the boat yard on the hard since mid-February and as of October the lay day/storage bill is ~$6000 (part of which the Navy paid for with my move). I did not complete the mast in San Diego once I found out I was moving. As its only $150 a month in Virginia I’m going to pull the mast apart again and paint it along with the other planned upgrades over the winter. Please be wary if you’re doing work in California as my story isn’t unique to Driscoll’s Mission bay. I have been hearing similar cases since I left their yard. Mexico may also be an option however the big yards there were bought out by one of the San Diego yards and all their parts and materials come with California prices. Supposedly their labor prices have increased to closer to San Diego prices, so I don’t know how much of a savings you will get down there. Maybe better sailing to northern California, Oregon, or Washington, or further south into Mexico or outside of Baja California.

[San Diego Viking]

Currently I am still putting finishing touches on the plate replacement. I finished patching and repairing the teak rub rails. This includes routing out the weird carved out spots that were over the chain plate bolts, and epoxying in teak blocks. I removed all the upper chain plate bolts through the rub rail mount, drilled through the outer glass and wood with a forsner bit, fabricated G-10 circle blocks to match the forsner bit size, and epoxying them in. There won’t be any more compression in this location. I will temporarily install the rub rails, drill through the bolt holes from the inside. At that point I can use a holesaw/forsner bit to cut a hole slightly bigger than the washer, and install the rub rails permanently with sealant. Once the chain plates have been replaced I will make a teak plug to fit these holes. This should make a permanent repair that worst case scenario and I have to replace a plate in the future, I won’t have to damage the rub rail again to do so.    

[Robert Brown]

Grinding out the old chain plates

[Robert Brown]

Fabricating G-10 Knees. the old Knees were made of wood. every one of them were soaked completely, like a sponge. its a wonder the plates were in as good a condition as they were.

[Robert Brown]

cutting off the anchors that were welded onto the old chain plates. you can see how bad these looked just out of the glass. again i am really surprised there were no worse issues with these plates. the weld spots where the anchors were welded on were a perfect spot to allow corrosion to blossom. when i ground out the plates every one had thick black water or fluid that had collected at the bottom of the plates. nasty looking stuff! as much work as this was, seeing that black liquid made me really happy i got this done. 

[Robert Brown]

They coated the interior glass with gelcoat. they said this was to prevent any water that leaked in, in the future, from de-laminating the glass layers. look s good so im not complaining too much. almost a shame that i will be covering it up with panels and woodwork later.

[Robert Brown]

Once the glasswork was done, they drilled the holes through the hull. I appreciate the time an effort that they put into ensuring the holes were all the same and symmetric. the sister plates looked good and i think was a very good choice to prevent bolt heads from tearing through the hull. The sister plates were fabricated by hand, which i dont have an issue with other than the cost of increased man hours over water cut parts. these sister plates cost more than what i was quoted by the rigging shop for new waterjet cut chainplates, which included electro-polish and ultimately higher quality. 

this means the hand fabricated sister plates while polished to a higher quality than my 400 grit polished old chainplates, they are no where near what i would consider for marine quality stainless parts, and i already see minor rust a year later. one sister plate is slightly off and is 3/16-1/4" lower than the others. while a minor issue for the price i shouldnt see such errors. 

i was paying $250 a day, and they were barely paying attention to me compared to the racing fleet. there was a death in the family at the time as well. i just wanted them to get done so i could put the boat back in the water at this point.

[Robert Brown]

I found some more pictures and ill add them later when i get back to work. overall im satisfied as structurally its all very solid and i will be able to sail my boat again, but overall quality was low with errors that shouldn't have happened at this price point. before i deployed Pacific Offshore rigging had quoted the same job, with new plates around $7k, but they were busy when i got back. the original quote from Driscoll's contractor was $24k, and i talked him down to $12k by doing a lot of the work myself with my tools and materials and reusing my old chain plates. 

This project isn't fully complete yet either. as you can see in the photo, the old chain plates are shorter than the spot and holes. i have no intention of leaving the old plates in for very long. they are strong enough to sail with in a protected bay, but i wouldn't trust them fully for serious offshore work here in Virginia. i still want titanium if i can swing it, the main reason i didn't freak out completely over reusing the old plates. regardless if new plates are made from stainless or titanium the old ones now are good templates that i can replace myself. i did get a quote while deployed, from Allied Titanium. the larger double chain plate for the top & intermediate shrouds was right around $1000 each. i will think on it more this winter while i am repainting and finishing the mast.

[Robert Brown]

Here are the G-10 plugs/circles i epoxied in for the upper chainplate bolts that are underneath the rubrails. I used a forsner bit to drill into the rubrail mount / mound (not really sure what to call it), through the outer fiberglass and the embedded wood. I traced around the forsner bit several times, on some 1" G-10 plate offcuts. i found one of the better tools to have for a boat and boat repairs is a portable bandsaw and stand, which makes a nice portable mini bandsaw you could even run on the boat. its slow for metal but that makes it perfect for G-10 and other composits. it cut wood without any issues. using the bandsaw i cut out the G-10 plugs. sanded them smooth and a belt/disk sander. the center hole had also been drilled.

it looks messy on the pictures where i epoxied them in, thankfully this time i anticipated and put up a lot of plastic underneath taped to the hull. aligned the center hole as close to the original as i could. theses plugs stood proud about 3/16-1/4"

[Robert Brown]

Rub rail repairs were a major pain in the butt. there was a decent amount of damage caused by removing them. At todays Teak prices i chose to try and save them best as i could. in retrospect it may have been better to remake out of some really hard wood like white oak or ironwood, but that is likely out of my abilities. as it was this was a big learning environment for the repair of wood.

first step was to use epoxy in all the cracks to strenghen as much as i could. 

there are carved out spots where the factory bolts were installed in the chainplates, about middle of the rub rail mount. i havent seen many quality issues with Passport Yachts but this was one of them. looks like they hand chiseled out the large holes. for a roughly 3/4"-1" round bolt the carved out hole was roughly 1.5" square, which didnt leave a lot of meat for strength in the teak. to fix these spots ( required a lot of thought), i ended up getting a milwaukee mini router and routing that entire spot out flat all the way across the back. that left maybe 1/4" of good wood on the front side of the rub rail, and i had to be really cautious moving it without breaking. i just kept dropping the bit lower until it was all flush. the wider double chainplate was really dificult, do to the lenght and i swapped to the large base of the router which barely let me do this. I had some teak pieces from a friends boat that he crushed, that were a good size and thickness for all these repairs. just cut a block that fit and stood proud a bit. i used a new wood chisel to make any final adjustments making the slot or block fit. using some of the Teak wood dust to make a thickened epoxy i clamped and glued the block in place wih decent pressure on the clamps. not the best patch job but theyre on the back,  i got better over time making repairs with little to no gaps.

with the biggest spots patched, I moved to the damage on the front. there were a lot of spots on the top and bottom edge, and several tear outs from removing the teak plugs over the screws. i got fairly adept with the router. just made as much of a brace or support as i could, went slow and made small depth adjustments. some areas i had to do by hand. the edges were easier. route out the damaged spot. many times it didnt have to go through the full width of the board and i could more or less dado a small area. then cut a block to fit, followed by making exact final cuts with a chisel (no hammer). epoxy was thickened with teak dust and clamped as before. i found i had to use more clamps at many of these spots so this process took several sessions. once the epoxy was cured i used a small hand plane to remove most of the extra wood, and sanded the repair smooth after. i found it was important to try and match the grain from the repair and the original rubrail. i was mostly successful on this.

the torn out screw plugs was more difficult, however i didnt need braces or supports. routed it out by hand, making small depth adjustments, untill i got to a depth that cleared the damage. used the chisel to cut the corners correctly from the round bit. these werent very deep, roughly 1/4" deep or so. I used the chisel to tune the block and holes. these were some of my best repairs as i had gotten good with tuning to  a barely noticable edge between the repair and rubrail plank.

I had to use chisels and skrewdrivers or other wedges to remove the rub rail from the boat, the first one i pulled was the worse. the last one i pulled last july and i used that debond spray on the old adhesive sealant so there wasnt as much damage. I have a concerns that the sanding i did on the back will not result in a board that fits flat on the mount. its close but i can feel some dips ect. originally it wasnt much better though and was very roughly hewn. i am also worried that the  big repaired spots will be too stiff and the rub rail wont flex enought to curve along the hull when reinstalling. I will know soon enough i guess, but i dont know what im going to do if it doesnt work.

[Robert Brown]

there were far too many patches, so i used Cetol on the rub rails to help hide them a little. i put 2 coats on the front and sides of the boards to help fill and stabilize the wood. hopefully protect the wood untill it gets installed later. The Cetol did a good job of this, and its really hard to see some of the repairs. varnish is simply too translucent i think and would have given me heartburn to put on the standard amount of varnish coats as proper. ironically 2 boats down in my new marina there is a Slocum 43 pilothouse. They have a 1.5-1.75" wide stainless piece the lenght of the rub rail installed on top of the teak. i think im going to do the same to further protect the rubrail and hide damage. should be unoticeable at that point.

again i think at this point i probably would have spent less time having a shop copy and replace the rubrail with a really hard wood like white oak or ironwood. my skills with woodworking improved a lot with this project but i dont believe i could recreate the scarf joint in the middle. 

i also bought larger screws and teak plugs. i bought a set of the combined drill/chamfered plug bits that are made to perfectly make a cole for wood screws. i cleared out the original size hole with the correct size (#8 screw and 3/8" plug i think), than followed with the larger #12 with 1/2" plug. i got silicon bronze screws as the intention is to never have to take this off again and i dont want stainless in there to corrode again. some of the old stainless screws were a nightmare to get out when i removed the rub rails initially. 

i havent reinstalled these yet as i have to paint the rubrail mount after i prep the area.i have already predrilled the old screw holes with the appropriate size hole for the larger skrews, although i think i need 1 or 2 sizes drill bit larger for the initial fiberglass layer of the mount to prevent the skrew chipping out or getting stuck in the glass. i also figured out that i initially bought a shorter skrew than whats needed. once installed you can only see 3/8-1/2" so it seems a waste of effort to go through the trouble and re-gelcoat. to reinstall the intention is to temporarily skrew in place dry to make sure everything fits correct, locate any missed skrew holes, and drill the chainplate bolt holes out from the inside. then pull to cut out the larger holes arount those bolts. thinking roughly a 1-1/4 inch hole for the bolt and fender washer. later when everything is done i will put a plug in these spots over the bolts, I will wait untill i replace those chainplates fully for now.

[Robert Brown]

i sanded the G-10 plugs flush with the rubrail mount. vaccume sanded with 80 grit. was surprisingly fast and i had expected the G-10 to give much more of a struggle. looks good though. when they put these bolts in there wasnt anything here and the wood inside compressed cracking the outer fiberglass layer slightly. overtime this would have continued to crack with the stresses and allowed watrer into the wood. I suspect the wood would swell and do damage to the rubrail mounts. these little G-10 blocks are epoxied through to the fiberglass of the hull and should be enugh backing to prevent cracking. it doesnt nessesarily need G-10 but i had that handy and was easier for me. ideally the contractor would have cut a similar hole and filled it in with glass to the same effect and similar to removing the foam core and filling with glass lower down. 

keep this in mind when you replace your chain plates. external or internal plates will need to address the rub rail mount to prevent water from later getting into the wood and swelling it. 

i hadnt drilled the bolt holes through yet in these pictures. some of the predrilled hole got filled with epoxy. i fount its better to drill the plug portion out from the outside with a slightly smaller bit,  followed by drilling from the inside out to alighn everything. i initially got a super long bit, but it was too long for some areas. a normal lenght bit worked.

[John Baudendistel]

Robert, 

Beautiful work!.  I assisted for a bit another P42 guy installing new milled teak rub rails.  They had a sealant under them.  He had got them started, and I helped to push the rub rail towards the hull as he screwed the rub rail down tight against the hull.  You might check into bedding with Teak Deck Systems.  However mask off the new rub rail and hull so black goo does not get on everything.  Great work and nice write up.  

John B

Dream Keeper 

P42

1985

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Thanks, 

John Baudendistel

jo...@ets247.com

[S/V Boundless]

Hello All

We are currently in La Paz, Mexico with Boundless, and given the uncertainty about traveling too far south this season, we thought we would take the opportunity to tackle a few projects including the removal of our (beloved) teak decks, and the replacement of the chainplates.  

We are currently mid project, and I am attempting to record as much as possible, and put it into a blog post - https://sailboundless.com/2020/12/05/chainplates-replacement-project/   

It was extremely useful to look at Robert's documentation of his (THANKYOU!) and you will see that we went a similar route, replacing the chainplates with exterior backing plates.  We are still a few weeks away from completing the project, and I will continue to update the blog post as we make progress.

Julian