Quick reminder for Wednesday, Feb 26th, 5:00 pm meeting re Passive House Windows in Portland

[David]

Just a quick reminder for Wednesday, Feb 26th, 5:00 meeting on  Passive House Windows in Portland. Details below

Passive House Windows

Graham Wright, Lead Scientist for Passive House US, will give a presentation on the criteria windows need to meet in order to attain PHIUS certification, plus an overview of the windows and manufactures who have meet this criteria. Lecture will give a "window of opportunity" for Passive House consultants,  Net Zero designers and builders to better understand the variety of windows available and what makes some of them super insulated and airtight!

When: February 26th

Where: Glasswood (3715 SE Division St.) - above Xico

When 5:00 to 6:45 pm

Food: available downstairs

 

RSVP to David Burdick (da...@fourelementsengineering.com)  Separate registration requested.  If attending the NWEGB presentation below, please register at link below.

Immediately following the PHAUS presentation, NWEBG will hold a discussion on:

Home Performance Building Materials
When: 7:00-9:00pm:
Where: Glasswood (3715 SE Division St.) - above Xico

Please join for a discussion on building materials that continue to push the envelope in current projects. President of Small Planet Workshop, Albert Rooks, will be discussing products that are continuing to improve the performance of buildings. We will continue the discussion by inviting others to share their experiences with materials they have seen improve the performance of their buildings.

We invite you to bring your favorite few materials you have used on your projects and seen great results...come share with us!

Nonmembers are $5-10 Sliding Scale Suggested Donations.

Northwest EcoBuilding Guild members are free
(just check in at the entrance table)!
  
note: if you are a student or financially unable to afford our suggested donation ticket prices, please contact us via email for possible scholarship opportunities.

Share these events on Facebook and Twitter and thanks for helping spread the word!!!

SPACE IS LIMITED SO, PLEASE PRE-REGISTER  

 

Four Elements Engineering™

4917 SE Aldercrest Rd.
Portland, Oregon 97222-4757
 
Tel & Cell: (+1) 503 654 2070
email: Da...@fourelementsengineering.com

website: www.fourelementsengineering.com 

 

 

David Burdick PE(WI), CEM, SHP, BPI, CPHC, LEED GA

Registered Professional Engineering (PE) Mechanical Wisconsin License #26503

Certified Energy Manager (CEM) License #19102
Sustainable Home Professional (SHP) member # 201212-5383
Building Performance Institute (BPI) Envelope & Building Analyst Professional ID#: 5047420
Certified Passive House Consultant (CPHC) License #1397
Leadership in Energy & Environmental Design -Green Associate (LEED GA), Member # 10814512

[Bronwyn Barry]

The title and content of this presentation appear to be in conflict with each other, so I'd like to request some clarification.  The title is 'Passive House Windows' yet the content is windows that meet the PHIUS certification, which are different from Passive House Certified windows.  Which of these types of windows will this presentation actually cover, and will this presentation clarify the difference between PHIUS Certified windows and Passive House Certified windows?  There are significant differences between these two certifications and the public ought to be informed that 'PHIUS Certified' windows, despite being issued by the Passive House Institute, US, are not Passive House Certified windows (even if they may be suitable for use in Passive House or PHIUS+ projects in specific climates.)  

I do wish I was able to attend.  I'd love to learn why PHIUS created this purgatorial certification, straddling the space somewhere between NFRC and PHI certifications and testing protocols.  By not differentiating themselves enough from the existing Passive House window certification in both name and process, PHIUS has created massive confusion in the window marketplace.  In doing so, they expose themselves to possible legal action from manufacturers who apply for their certification, inadvertently thinking they're receiving 'Passive House Certification' and also to legal action from manufacturers who do apply for 'Passive House Certification' and then feel undermined by this PHIUS Certification. (What would the NFRC say if this was called 'NFRC+ Certification?')  Oy. Did anyone think this through?  I'd love to hear the logic...

Hayden Robinson's petition was sage advice.  In urging PHIUS to change their name and create their own brand and their own certification, distinct from that of the original Passive House Institute, all these issues would be resolved. (This worked beautifully for the International Living Building Institute, an outgrowth of the original USGBC.)  We could then all happily move forward and promote both standards without this brand confusion - and no fear or need for lawyers.  

I'd like to humbly propose a new name: The Klingagis Institute, establishing the Klingagis Standard and issuing Klingagis Certified products.    (A good way to honor the contributions of both founders.)

I look forward to hearing more about this window presentation, and what it actually covered....

Bronwyn

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Bronwyn Barry, CPHD, Assoc. AIA

Certified Passive House Consultant
Director - One Sky Homes

m: 415.819.7978

t: @passivehouseBB and @oneskyhomes

http://www.oneskyhomes.com/video/hair-dryer-home

     

www.oneskyhomes.com

[Graham S. Wright]

Roger, points of clarification:

Indeed, the PHIUS program is properly called "PHIUS certified data program for Window Performance".  

It uses the same EN standards (673, 410, 10077) as the PHI window cert. program and competes directly with it, with the aim of getting more data out there for consultants to use.  By design the calculation protocol differences are quite minor so that the numbers may be compared apples to apples with PHI cert.  Mostly it is just reported differently - both outfits calculate frame U-values on fixed environmental conditions and center-of-glass climate dependent, but PHIUS uses a more granular 8-zone climate system aligned with ASHRAE zones and PHI has I believe a 5-zone system.  

Both outfits recommend different performance levels depending on the climate zone.  And of course, both are doing so in the context of passive building construction.  When I looked at the PHI zone map, it looked like they were going to certify even down to an R-2 window for say, Mexico.  But I was told no, the "certified" badge they still reserve for windows meeting the same criteria as before, which is more like an R-7 window.  Marketing-wise, I can see why PHI would want to maintain a consistent meaning for that designation, but both programs recognize that appropriate performance levels vary by climate.  Our "zone-5 recommended" is about equivalent to PHI's "Passive House Certified".  People can compare the frame and glass numbers if they need to get more nitty-gritty.  

As to NFRC, we find much to admire in the NFRC system and would like to combine the advantages of both the EN and NFRC systems, but this is aspirational.  We are collecting data but have not pulled the trigger.  We did decide to use NFRC 101 for material properties instead of DIN 4108 - the basic stuff is the same anyway, and the NFRC custom materials come in handy for North American made windows.

Hope this helps,

Graham

[Graham S. Wright]

Postscript:  

I understand the logic of branding, on a mental level - gives people a shortcut, something to hang their hat on.  But I don't really feel it in my gut.  As evidenced by my own pathetic web site, which says nothing about me.  One of my favorite sayings is, "there is no limit to what you can accomplish, if you don't care who gets the credit."  I note that neither Klingnagis nor Wolfwitta named institutes after themselves.  They named them Passive House Institute and Passive House Institute US.  Could there be better names?  Arguably so.  But in my eyes these are both notable gestures of humility, which we would do well to contemplate.  The more I focus on the project, the mission, the movement, and the less on my own glorification, the better - that is my religion, so to speak.  

[Hayden Robinson]

Graham,

 

I think it's less a matter of branding and more a matter of market differentiation. I think it would benefit us all if someone were to provide the direct competition with Passive House that you refer to below, but without differentiation that can't exist. Ideally, we'd have the kind of game-changing competition that calculators brought to slide rules. Lacking that, the tinkering-around-the-edges competition that goes on between Hertz and Avis would at least keep everyone a little more honest. But competition between Passive House and Passive House just perplexes people.

 

Hayden

[Bronwyn Barry]

Graham,

It’s been a busy few days, but I did want to respond to your clarifications.   Thank you for sending them.

I get that you’re not the marketing guru at PHIUS.  (‘PHIUS Certified Data Program for Window Performance’ sounds like maybe there isn’t one yet?)  However, as the representative of this program, it’s important that you’re accurate in conveying what it does and doesn’t provide.  We are a community that’s particularly particular, after all.  

Data is good and more data is generally better.  While the PHIUS program uses most of the same EN simulation protocols, it’s a stretch - at best - to claim it “competes directly with it.”  (That’s akin to saying a 5K run is the same as a triathlon: they both have running involved, but the triathlon has a few more requirements and you generally need a certain time qualifier to enter: they’re not in the same league.) Perhaps it’s better to say that the PHIUS data program supplements the Passive House Window Certification provided by PHI? 

PHIUS’s program really does perform a great service to manufacturers making windows for warmer climates. It is producing the numbers required to enter their data into the PHPP. But no more.  It completely skips the other two important PHI Certification metrics: Uw-installed and fRsi : temperature factor.  (Those two can be viewed as analogous to the swim and the bike ride segments of the Triathlon.)  PHIUS’s data program also misses the NFRC destructive testing process, which while adding cost, mandates a measure of honesty that neither the PHI nor PHIUS processes include. Any qualified simulator who can use THERM and read the EN standards you reference could provide the same info PHIUS provides.

As you stated, the aim of the PHIUS program is to get “more data out there for consultants to use.”  That goal has real merit, but is distinctly different to that of PHI.  PHI’s goal is not to provide a marketing stamp for the thousands of existing windows already on the market, but rather to stimulate improvement and innovation in the window market place.  PHI has chosen to keep their window certification at a high bar, similar to their whole building certification.  Again, this differentiator should be noted.  (In this arena, PHIUS is taking the ‘LEED’ approach that gives everyone an opportunity to win a ribbon, while PHI is taking the ‘Living Building Challenge’ approach in encouraging the industry to stretch itself.)

While the protocols and metrics are pretty easy to clarify and distinguish, the branding issues remain a serious problem.  PHIUS is actively choosing to walk a precarious line here, not just with inaccurate comparisons between their data program “directly competing” with PHI’s Window Certification, but also by stubbornly clinging to the ‘Passive House’ name.  As long as PHIUS retains the name “Passive House Institute, US” and issues certificates of any kind (be they for ‘data’ or windows or buildings) it leans directly on the Passive House Standard and Passive House Window Certification (no matter how many blog posts about Passive ‘Buildings’ it issues.)  It thereby blurs the distinction between this ‘data program’ and Passive House certification.   The Passive House market is clearly growing in North America.  Projects are becoming larger and big companies already invested in Passive House Certification are bringing their products to our shores.  It doesn’t take a marketing genius to look at the “Passive House Institute, US, Certified Data Program for Window Performance” and wonder how long it will take before the Raico’s, Schuco’s and InterNorm’s of the window industry slap it with some form of infringement lawsuit.

What you and PHIUS are doing has real value, and a place in the market.  We desperately need more high performance buildings and information on how to build them.  But for the sake of self-preservation: differentiate yourself and make sure you’re not inadvertently (or intentionally) trampling on already covered territory.

I look forward to seeing you next month in Portland at PHnw5. 

Best regards,

Bronwyn

[Albert Rooks]

Hi Passive House Northwest,

This discussion is yet another reason to attend PHnw 5. Be there where the "person to person" discussions happen. We all shape our future.

The subject is slightly funny to me: A "passionate discussion" about window certifications can potentially provide "internal heat gains" in our venue with no need for high SHGC #'s. Perhaps we can turn off the mech system and open the doors...

Come to PHnw 5. See you there!

((Obviously I'm even willing to "borrow" from professional wrestling to promote PHnw 5))

Albert Rooks [mobile device]