The price of conversion

[Kphiyr]

I find it a complete shame that the KJU course costs money, yet I do
understand that running the process obviously must cost something. The
only alternative to those potential converts would be through the
affiliated Hakhamim of the WAQ.

Occasionally I've been asked how a Gentile should convert into Qaraite
Judaism. So far it hasn't been an easy answer. I have directed a few
people to Hazzan Yochanan as I believe he is an upstanding individual.
I'd be shocked though to find many not finding the price steep for
KJU.

I have no idea the stance of the WAQ in regards to the process of
conversion of Gentiles. My guess is they would leave it up to the
individual community to determine that. I like the idea of that, but
I'm not sure as to the actual communities that the Hakhamim of the WAQ
govern, or what they are actually doing about enabling an increase in
their numbers. To be quite honest at this point I only respect Yaaqov
from that circle as a Hakham.

Being a P'shat Jew myself - perhaps I shouldn't be even concerned at
all with the Qaraite world, but I don't know how I feel about
suggesting those Gentiles become P'shat Jews. Quite frankly I'm not
interested in starting my own sect, and bringing in followers. Oddly
enough I've known a few Gentiles in person who have wanted that. I'm
not a leader, and obviously don't fit a Hakham role, nor would I want
too. (it feels strange even typing that.) So I'm left with my initial
problem. What do I do with Gentiles who are interested...

That was almost more of a ramble instead of a question. I think I need
some sleep. :)

Kphiyr

[Zvi]

Shalom l'khulam & Kphiyr,

I don't see how the WAQ is any real/viable alternative as at least two
of them aren't quite settled on whether Har Gerizim is YHWH's Chosen
Place or not, and to leave room for it being the Place YHWH Chooses in
addition to or instead of the Temple MT. in Yerushalayim is a no-no in
my book.

And the Chosen Place issue is one example of the problems plaguing the
WAQ.

The other problem is the lack of communities apart from Mr. Tzipris'.
And this man's circle espouses that they are Israelites yet separate
from the Jews. This to me is also unacceptable.
I'll keep trying to dissuade others from being "converted" by the so-
called Hakhamim in his circle and/or joining it.

May YHWH be with us,
Zvi

[Kphiyr]

Shalom Zvi,

What are your views on Gentiles taking the KJU route? As Eli'ezer use
to say: "Inquiring minds want to know."

Kphiyr

[יעקב/James Walker‎]

@Zvi -

It's about $1,000 ($75/mo) over the course of 14 months of education and background checks culminating in legally valid (incl with the State of Israel) recognition as an Israelite.

One college class for a 5 month semester
is about $900 in America, with no certification or special legal recognition acquired. I don't see a problem except the semantics of the word "conversion", which makes it sound like people are in line at a baptism with a $1,000 ticket in their hand :)

As KJU grada come back to teach  courses and publish academic and popular literature, the cost structure will most likely help bring down the tuition costs.

By policy, no student, American or otherwise is turned away for economic reasons, and foreigners have tuitions more in line with the local income/currency.

If the KJU is to remain solvent, there has to be a source of reliable funding, just like any Non-profit.

[Zvi]

Shalom `alaikha Kphiyr

I'm rather surprised you and Eli`ezer haven't yet connected on FB.

I agree with you that the cost's height is rather a shame *in
itself*.

I further claim I would love for the curriculum to confirm more to my
religious views, i.e Peshat-true rather than "Egyptian Qaraite"
complete with some of their illogical inferences.

Perhaps the students should be taught some Hebrew beyond the bare
essentials.

Am I'm surely angry that people have to pay a fortune to fly out to CA
to convert and many give up beforehand upon finding this out, and that
the State Dep. has denied entry to the vast majority of students.

But overall there's no viable alternative except perhaps converting in
Israel under Qaraite rabbis.


All glory be to YHWH!
Zvi

[Zvi]

Ya`aqov,... you mistook me for was Kphiyr as the initial complaintant.


-Zvi

[יעקב/James Walker‎]

As Karaite communities form (besides the Daly City one), the conversion process will have multiple centers to hold the ceremony in. The in-person beit-din ceremony at Daly City is a part of the requirements of the State of Israel, due to the need for the participants to actually have met during a session of the court.

2012/4/17 Zvi <zvi.tor...@gmail.com>

[יעקב/James Walker‎]

Whoops - thanks Zvi

2012/4/17 Zvi <zvi.tor...@gmail.com>

[Zvi]

PS: perhaps Avraham Qanai is still another viable alternative.

Zvi

[Zvi]

Shalom Ya`aqov,

This is why it is an outright disgrace that the Qaraite communities in
LA and Chicago and Albany don't have yet synagogues, let alone them
being recognized by the Mo`eset Hakhamim.


Zvi

On Apr 17, 3:52 pm, יעקב/James Walker <yaaq...@gmail.com> wrote:
> As Karaite communities form (besides the Daly City one), the conversion
> process will have multiple centers to hold the ceremony in. The in-person
> beit-din ceremony at Daly City is a part of the requirements of the State
> of Israel, due to the need for the participants to actually have met during
> a session of the court.
>

> 2012/4/17 Zvi <zvi.torahkee...@gmail.com>

[יעקב/James Walker‎]

We covered this before - learning Torah without accountability is clearly available through thousands of good people online and around the world.

Having a course curriculum with academic standards, grades, research theses, counseling, background checks, a beit din session, etc. all as agreed upon by the internation Karaite community and the Government of Israel is totally different.

That they put it together for $75 month (about as much as a family phone plan), and that everything academically has worked, and the only hold up is US immigration policies is saying a lot for the first 5 years of its existence. If this were 1992 instead of 2012, people would probably have to uproot themselve to phyiscally live full time near a Karaite synagogue.

As I usually say, it's easy to find flaws, but it's far harder to build the organizational infrastructure to begin with, and then streamline it.

2012/4/17 Zvi <zvi.tor...@gmail.com>

[יעקב/James Walker‎]

They have to be actual synagogues, with members and accountability. Loose "minyanim" (for lack of a better word) aren't up to those standards, but communities are forming. With about 2-3 KJU converts, and a regular shabbat service, anywhere in the world could be the next "destination community".

2012/4/17 Zvi <zvi.tor...@gmail.com>

[kphiyr]

Shalom Zvi,

I was never under the impression that Eli'ezer ever viewed me as a friend. My guess is he doesn't use his FB page much. I did and still wish I could read his posts though. In case your curious, no I haven't sent him a friend request.

If you have sent him a friend request and he hasn't approved it yet - I wouldn't think twice. I know of a person whom Eli'ezer considered a friend, who hasn't been approved to his list yet.

Kphiyr

[kphiyr]

I wish this was the case, but ive yet to hear a person going through conversion via Qanai.

Kphiyr

[יעקב/James Walker‎]

The Chancellor (Hakham Me'ir Rekhavi) just posted this on facebook in a response to someone else:

"I cannot afford the fees, will this penalize me from the course?

The Karaite Jewish University is a non-profit institution, which does not receive funding neither from any government body nor from any religious organization. The faculty of the KJU work on a voluntary basis without receiving any remuneration for their work and quite often pay for certain expenses out of their own pockets. The KJU needs to raise approximately $15,000 USD a year in order to function, which is primarily collected through tuition fees, without which we would have to close down. We can only open the course to non-fee paying potential students or to students paying at a reduced rate once we have enough full fee paying students."

[יעקב/James Walker‎]

Hakham Qanai can teach them to make a Covenant with God, for sure.

But to have documentation converting a former Christian gentile into a Karaite Jew is another matter entirely.

[kphiyr]

Shalom Yaaqov,

I thought conversion was the same term the KJU website uses. 

Do they allow Gentiles to pay the $75 a month?

What's an estimate on how many converts return to teach for KJU?

Kphiyr

[kphiyr]

This very quote is what sparked my initial message on this forum. I was going to post this on the Karaites forum, but didn't want to mistakingly offend Hakham Rekhavi. 

Kphiyr

[Zvi]

Ya`aqov, I don't see why you're explaining this to me when I didn't
differ with you at all. Perhaps this time you're mistaking me for a
nincompoop in the broadest Qaraite arena?

Zvi

On Apr 17, 4:02 pm, יעקב/James Walker <yaaq...@gmail.com> wrote:
> They have to be actual synagogues, with members and accountability. Loose
> "minyanim" (for lack of a better word) aren't up to those standards, but
> communities are forming. With about 2-3 KJU converts, and a regular shabbat
> service, anywhere in the world could be the next "destination community".
>

> 2012/4/17 Zvi <zvi.torahkee...@gmail.com>

[יעקב/James Walker‎]

The term is something that even Hakham Me'ir agrees could be possibly improved in the future. In English we think of christian conversion - you were a drug deealer, now you're a saint. So "paying for a Karaite Jewish conversion" can casually sound like "paying to get right with God".

You are already assumed to be a YHWH-fearing, non-christian/muslim gentile, so they aren't "converting the heathen" per se, but educating those who among them who  feel called to join the people of Yisrael and giving them a real, legally recognized process to do so based on the supremacy of the Tanakh.

regarding  "Do they allow Gentiles to pay the $75 a month?", are you asking if they do a payment plan instead of in one lump sum? Yes, they will work with you (they did with me and my now-wife).

[יעקב/James Walker‎]

My eye fell on your name, but you're right, this is actually a response to Kphiyr

2012/4/17 Zvi <zvi.tor...@gmail.com>

[Zvi]

I said "perhaps" in reference to A. Qanai. I don't know what his
failure rates are in converting individuals, but at least Yosef Yaron
has turned out fine. Therefore nobody with acommand of the facts can
claim with a straight face that Qanai is a total failure, and I for
one -- if asked about him -- will *not necessarily* sway anyone away
from his.
Am I clear?

Perhaps you'd do better if you eased off on the repretative marketing
of the KJU's edges which comes across to some as talking down which is
whoefully unnecessary.

-Zvi

On Apr 17, 4:00 pm, יעקב/James Walker <yaaq...@gmail.com> wrote:
> We covered this before - learning Torah without accountability is clearly
> available through thousands of good people online and around the world.
>
> Having a course curriculum with academic standards, grades, research
> theses, counseling, background checks, a beit din session, etc. all as
> agreed upon by the internation Karaite community and the Government of
> Israel is totally different.
>
> That they put it together for $75 month (about as much as a family phone
> plan), and that everything academically has worked, and the only hold up is
> US immigration policies is saying a lot for the first 5 years of its
> existence. If this were 1992 instead of 2012, people would probably have to
> uproot themselve to phyiscally live full time near a Karaite synagogue.
>
> As I usually say, it's easy to find flaws, but it's far harder to build the
> organizational infrastructure to begin with, and then streamline it.
>

> 2012/4/17 Zvi <zvi.torahkee...@gmail.com>

[kphiyr]

Shalom Zvi,

If you continue on this path - I'm going to start thinking you aren't being sarcastic or funny anymore. Please do so to enlighten me, since intentions are sometimes lost in text.

Kphiyr

[Zvi]

Shalom Kphiyr,

If you don't mind, I wish to conclude our reference to Eli`ezer by
noting that he connected with... Ilan Leibowitz in the 1st round.
Given Eli`ezer's refusal to be fazed by my (shall we say) explanations
about Ilan, I'm not really outraged at Eli`ezer's behavior; I've known
him more or less since 2006.

Zvi

On Apr 17, 4:06 pm, kphiyr <kph...@kphiyr.com> wrote:
> Shalom Zvi,
>
> I was never under the impression that Eli'ezer ever viewed me as a friend. My guess is he doesn't use his FB page much. I did and still wish I could read his posts though. In case your curious, no I haven't sent him a friend request.
>
> If you have sent him a friend request and he hasn't approved it yet - I wouldn't think twice. I know of a person whom Eli'ezer considered a friend, who hasn't been approved to his list yet.
>
> Kphiyr
>

[Zvi]

Shalom Kphiyr,

I didn'timply even in the least youare the nincompoop. I didn't have
any one specific person in mind.

Zvi

On Apr 17, 4:35 pm, kphiyr <kph...@kphiyr.com> wrote:
> Shalom Zvi,
>
> If you continue on this path - I'm going to start thinking you aren't being sarcastic or funny anymore. Please do so to enlighten me, since intentions are sometimes lost in text.
>
> Kphiyr
>

[Yaaqov Ben Yisrael]

The WAQ does not perform conversions, I personally dont believe "conversion" is necessary. As for a doctrinal belief, this is not in the purview of the WAQ either, as the Alliance is to be of Qaraites from differing and various groups. All views are tolerated, and non-is attacked for their understanding; though this doesnt require acceptance of contrary views and opinion, only toleration of such.

 

The WAQ only allows members who are already Qaraites. For those who wish conversion or acceptance, this is done via their local communities, live or virtual.

 

Ya'aqov ben Yisrael

--

[kphiyr]

Shalom Hakham Yaaqov,

I definitely do like the sound of that. Each community should be allowed to be independent with loose connections to allow discourse and exchange of ideas.

Kphiyr

[Kphiyr]

Shalom Ya'aqov,

I don't think of "conversion" in the same way that you put it. This
reminds me of a Christian I once knew who claimed he had no religion,
but rather had a faith in Christianity. Then he went on to tell me
that I have a religion, which is Judaism. I half smiled, and said:
"No, we are actually a people." Granted I was being a little funny,
because we both were right about Judaism. :)

I hope that paragraph didn't offend you, because I don't mean for it.

Kphiyr

[Kphiyr]

Shalom Ya'aqov,

This is kind of a side note: I still theorize that Christianity was
created, because our people at the time made Judaism not as easily
accessible as it should have been.

Like it or not the fees attributed to the KJU will turn potential
converts away from the Daly City community. Those Gentile Born people
who wish to follow YHWH and His Torah, who are springing up over the
internet, may end up forming their own little communities. Time and
time again, I've been contacted over the internet by Gentile Born
people who say they are now Jewish because they have rejected their
old religion, and have embraced YHWH and His Torah.

Times are indeed changing. YeHaWeH is opening the eyes of foreign
people, who have not been raised in the Master's house.

Kphiyr

Kphiyr

On Apr 17, 5:39 am, יעקב/James Walker <yaaq...@gmail.com> wrote:

[יעקב/James Walker‎]

Amen weAmen :)

2012/4/20 Kphiyr <Kph...@kphiyr.com>

[Zvi]

Shavu`a Tov l'khulam,

I can't for the life of me see what historical basis justifies the
statement "...Christianity was created, because our people at the time

made Judaism not as easily accessible as it should have been."

This is another way of effectively arguing -- though Kphiyr wasn't
aware of the ramifications of his statement -- that Reform Judaism
should have been launched around the time JC was born.
What most of our people did at the time was adhere to the Torah (the
Pharisees took an easier path while the "Essenes" took a harder
route), so the unintended implication of his statement is that
observing the Torah makes Judaism not as easily accessible as it
should have been and that the Torah is at fault at bottom line.
Oh... and the fact is that in the first 1.5 century the "Jewish-
Christians" didn't join the Pharisees.

The simple fact is painful to accept but it is there for anyone
willing to concede it instead of seeking excuses to self flagellate:
Paul of Tarsus made Xtianity much easier to appeal to gentiles by
peeling away virtually every "cultic" Toraic requirment.


In YHWH we shall trust,
Zvi

[Zvi]

Shalom Kphiyr,

When those born gentiles surface in fora attended by myself and
Avraham Qanai to name two, we shall disillusion those gentiles and
explain to them that they also need to consider the Jewish people
theirs, be adopted by their favorite Jewish movement or community and
join the people to become Jewish, unless you inform any one of them
willing to listen to you.

All praise to YHWH

Zvi

On Apr 20, 3:57 pm, Kphiyr <Kph...@kphiyr.com> wrote:

[Yohanan bin-Dawidh]

Shavu'a Tov Haverim,

I see Christianity in a far different light, namely it was neither the religion of Jesus or Paul. It springs forth from the ideas of Paul, but still it is not his teachings per se. Christianity is a mixture of Roman, Egyptian and Babylonian religious beliefs. 

The so-called gospel narratives cannot be claimed to be completely built off of Paul's teachings, as some would claim, because not even Paul believed I the idea of virgin birth, which we find written into one of the so-called gospels. The writings of Paul also teach to the notion that it was the so-called "resurrection of Jesus" that made him a "Son of God", not his birth or anything else. This is contrary to the so-called gospels.

Now, then, this might be partially adhering to the writings of Robert Eisenman, but there is good scholarly basis behind the following thought process, in that the historical Jesus and James were members of the group that Josphus refers to as the " Fourth Philosophy", who were Sicari'i Essenes, as he would refer to them, hence Yuhudha ha-Sicari'i (Judas Iscariot), who could possibly be the same as Yuhudha ben-Hizqiyahu ha-Galili (Judah the Galilean). This Yuhudha ha-Galili had two sons recorded by Josephus, namely Ya'aqov (James) and Shim'on, both the names of brothers of the so-called Jesus (his other two brothers being Yuhudha and Yosef). 

These men were all from ha-Galil, birth place of the "Fourth Philosophy".

All praise be to YHWH!

Yohanan bin-Dawidh

--
שָׁלוֹם וּבְרָכָה
יוֹחָנָן בִּן-דָוִד

[Zvi]

Yehuda ben-Hizqiyah ha-Gelili OBM launched his mini revolt in 4 BCE
immediately after Herod passed on. He was killed fairly early in the
fighting.
If Judas Iscariot is indeed one and the same with Yehuda haGelili then
this bespeaks to the NT's chronological inaccuracy to put it mildly.
Further, it is known that this Yehuda had 3 sons. Apparently the 3rd
remains anonymous to us.

Blessings in YHWH

Zvi

On Apr 22, 8:54 am, Yohanan bin-Dawidh <yohanan.bin.daw...@gmail.com>
wrote:

[Yohanan bin-Dawidh]

Shalom Zvi,

One theory is that the Christian writings are a re-write of history, a cover-up of events, which has some truth to it, but a lot of inaccuracies. The third son of Yuhudha Ben-Hizqiyahumha-Gelili, to my knowledge was Menakhem, but we all know that Josephus may have not recorded all relevant historical facts, after all, he was biased too. He may have had more than three sons. What entertains scholars minds is that the names do the members of the Fourth Philosophy, and Sicari'i all subscribe to the names of the so-called Jesus' family and followers, who were all fought against by Sha'ul, who was a Hellenistic soldier fighting on behalf of Rome.

All praise be to YHWH!

Yohanan bin-Dawidh