Meeting update and action item 30/12/2012

[Amit Kumar]

Thanks for coming to the site. I hope in next meet more people will join and make this initiative more effective.

Update-
1. We were not allowed to visit the site. No one was aware of our visit. Infact we talked with marketing head and as per him there is no way we can get access to construction site. As per our observation from outside on an average plaster has been completed upto 6 and 7 floor. Everyone's view is completion of entire project in a year time is little unrealistic.

2. We also discuss about interest issues. Most of us received the letter/mail from builder by saying earlier letter is null and void. But we learnt builder is planning to get the interest at the time of possession. So we'll have no time to fight.

Action items:

1. Formed a formal/legal group and meet with senior management in paramount and discuss on above issue. If builder is agree on issuing a letter with 0 interest then fine otherwise we need to file the case in consumer court. Builder is playing very smart he'll ask for interest at the time of possession and we all would be end up by paying that amount. Now we need to take proactive steps instead of reactive.

Now we need some legal opinion on taking things further..

Key mile stones :

12/01/2013 - Meet the builder under the formal/legal group and have an agreement.
19/01/2013 - Send the formal notice to builder on the point where we are having disagreement.
25/01/2013 - file a complaint in consumer forum by the group

Need everyone's help to achieve above milestone. We all need to remember one thing, it's a time to fight for ourselves.

As a first step We can pick items from the post Intent to form "Flat Owners Association" and its Agenda
http://tinyurl.com/ParamountFloravilleAgendaDraft

Wish you & your family a very happy & prosperous new year !

[Kunal Jain]

Dear all

I have been going though most of the messages posted in this egroup as well as outside this group. Many amongst us are definitely not pleased with the way builder has issued the letter. However, we should also consider the following:

1. I understand that most of us are purchasing a house for the first time. However, we should consult buyers from other societies (from other buyers who have already received their apartments) - whether they were asked to pay penalties or additional charges during the course of construction / during possession? if so, then what happened in their situations? This is important because court takes the historic cases for future proceedings.
   
2. If not, then it will be important to understand their agreement because the rates have definitely increased during past few years (honestly speaking, you should reflect the investments you made on stock market, if the share price of cement / petrochemical / steel industry has risen then it is due to the improvement in profit margins, which indirectly comes from these kind of projects). 
3. There are lot other points that have to be considered, and not only the Paramount agreement, as a standalone, to take this issue forward. One of them is that most of us have signed the agreement trusting the agents - where are they now? My agent confirmed me that a couple of weeks' delay will not be charged for the first installment - which is not the case. So it was a false commitment from their side as well -WHERE ARE THEY? Why we don't sue them rather than suing the  builder?
   
4. Based on my experience, whatever case is registered against the builder in the court of law, the fees are always passed on to the buyers (for the lawyer, penalties and other charges). In other case, the project becomes unprofitable for the builder and he starts cutting costs in finishing, revisits the plan with some explanation or other to cut corners, for e.g. in our case it is with the elevators.
5. Further, in the worst case scenario, if the issues goes to the court of law, who is going to bear the cost of filing the case, lawyers fees from our side? We will end up paying from both sides and by end of the day lawyers will mint money from both sides.
   

It is a bit harsh to say it but the fact remains - people with highest penalties are the ones who have booked their apartments before June 2011. The prices for the apartment has already doubled from the moment you have invested in the project. If the possession is delayed due to the legal proceedings, then the advantage we have had of being early buyers will be lost as soon as the stay order is issued by the court and you will not be able to live there and will also not be able to sell the apartment.

To conclude, I request you all to be cautious in your approach and do not rush up to the court of law, otherwise our hard earned money invested will go down the drain and will have to fill the pockets of lawyers to get what is rightfully ours.

Kunal

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[Varun Thukral]

Dear All,

I completely agree with the points mentioned by Kunal Jain in his below mail.

Only point that is alarming is the Delay in possession of our flats, which none of us would want.

Regards,

Varun Thukral

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[Partho Garg]

Dear All,

 

I would also agree with Varun and Kunal. Builder is already waving off any interest till Sept 2010, when banks started funding the project.

 

Not sure if we stand any ground for late payments ( hence interest) post Sept 2010.

 

Regards

 

Partho

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[ajay jain]

Hi All,

Please make sure that Builder is charging interest for the amount which he has demanded. In my friend case, Builder has sent demand letter in June 2010 and the next demand letter came in March 2011 (here builder have added charges for service tax introduced in July 2010). He has not received any demand letter for the service tax between July 2010 and March 2011. When we visited Paramount office and talked with the management, they waived off this interest too. So please be careful.

Also, we have found one problem related to due date for fifth slab in the demand letter which is also corrected by the builder, So please visit Paramount office and study your ledger carefully.


Thanks and Regards,
Ajay Jain

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[manojb...@gmail.com]

My Views:

The major point of dispute is the calculation of period. I never received my demand letters on time.. Sometimes courier guy use to jst drop it in the post box.. No acceptance of courier taken... Firstly I would dispute the period part... Secondly, the officials are saying amt can be paid at the time of possession... And since I knw that they are not in a position to handover on the due date the interest on builder will kick in... So would like to set off my interest to what ever extent possible with amt payable by the builder..

Sent on my BlackBerry® from Vodafone

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From: Partho Garg <parth...@yahoo.com>

Sender: paramount-flora...@googlegroups.com

Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 20:39:31 -0800 (PST)

To: Varun Thukral<varu...@gmail.com>; Kunal Jain<kunal.j...@gmail.com>

ReplyTo: Partho Garg <parth...@yahoo.com>

Cc: paramount-flora...@googlegroups.com<paramount-flora...@googlegroups.com>

Subject: Re: [paramount-floraville-residents:386] Meeting update and action item 30/12/2012

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[Sarabjit Jagirdar]

Dear All, I to agree with Kunal's observation because delay of poccession is  some thing we all cannot afford. The issue of no being able to evaluate the progress of the project is alarming. I was informed last year than in 2012 we would be able to see the interior work of our apartment --- On Thu, 1/3/13, Varun Thukral <varu...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Varun Thukral <varu...@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [paramount-floraville-residents:385] Meeting update and action item 30/12/2012 To: "Kunal Jain" <kunal.j...@gmail.com> Cc: paramount-flora...@googlegroups.com

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[Amit Kumar]

Good to see the feedback but I would disagree a bit with Kunal.

1. Interest/Penalties charged by other builders as well but they intimate you as soon there is a delay in payment. Seems Paramount intentions are not right that's why they've sent the demand letter with interest charges. Now we learnt they'll take the interest payment during possession.

  

2. Reason for interest charges may vary for each of us but it should have mentioned in the subsequent demand letter.  

3. Regarding agreement, I would suggest you to read you flat agreement once again. If builder will start executing each of those point then it won't be any dream home anymore.

4. Regarding appreciation of Property, I agree with you price has been escalated but it's virtual until we are not getting possession. There is a delay of more than a year yet no communication from builder. When builder determine the price of this project he must have included escalation as well. Anyway we all know builder take money for one project and start two other project from that. I don't want to get in detail but they've already made profit from our advance payment.

5. Regarding Cost cutting, If builder is not meeting his margin then in any way he'll do the cost cutting. Here we've already made the payment but now he is trying to extort some more through interest charges.

So I think we need to come together and ensure builder is delivering what he is committed. We also want to settle things with builder only. We'll be only going to consumer court if there is a disagreement with the builder.

Few Past cases

 DLF case: CCI seeks changes in builder-buyer agreement , JP also has to revise their agreement after buyer resistance.

  

[Nandini Srivastava]

 What time are we supposed to meet and where?
 Regards
 Mrs. N. Srivastava

[Nandini Srivastava]

 The builder is playing different games with different people, and the CFO is passing the buck on to others by saying that he is not the deciding authority. In our case ,  they have charged us interest on Service tax from Oct 2010 to March 2011, when their first demand for Service tax came in June 2011 only.
 They have taken this excess payment from us on the excuse that we have charged this interest to every buyer( Aashima's version, which is now proved to be a lie.). Also , they have charged us an extra day or two as interest by reconciling it on a later date  from the date of receipt  of the cheques.
 Now they are trying to avoid meeting us or resolve this issue, as they are caught on the wrong foot.
 Regards
 Ms. N. Srivastava

On Thursday, January 3, 2013 7:04:44 PM UTC+5:30, Amit Kumar wrote:

[Pooja Bansal]

I agree with Amit. Please let us know when and where to meet.

 

Regards,

Pooja

[Dr.Tariq Ashraf]

Pls see following important news of today

Apartment buyers agreement in DLF case modified

UNI
New Delhi, January 03, 2013

First Published: 18:28 IST(3/1/2013)
Last Updated: 18:37 IST(3/1/2013)

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The Competition Commission of India (CCI) today modified the Apartment Buyers agreement between DLF and apartment allottees, taking into account the interest of both parties and removing the 'abusive and unfair' conditions present in the original 'one-sided pact' which favoured DLF.

An official spokesperson said the supplementary order passed by the CCI under Section 27 of the Competition Act, 2002, modifies the agreement entered into between DLF and apartment allottees and relates to the order of the Competition Appellate Tribunal of March 29, 2012.

The Tribunal had directed the Commission to pass an order specifying the extent and manner in which the terms and conditions of the apartment buyer's agreement needed to be modified.

The Commission in its order after considering the modified terms of the Apartment Buyers agreement submitted by both the parties, modified the terms of the agreement in a manner which it considers fair and reasonable and takes into account the interest of both the parties, the spokesperson said.

The Commission had, in its earlier August 12, 2011, order held that DLF Ltd was a dominant enterprise which had "violated the provisions of Section 4 of the Competition Act 2002 by entering into an agreement with apartment allottees that was one sided, abusive and unfair to the allottees."

Accordingly, the agreement had been amended such that the "abusive and unfair conditions present in the original one-sided agreement have been removed."

The Commission in its order also considered the relevant provisions of the laws applicable to the development of group housing projects in Haryana, particularly the mandatory requirements which must be followed by every developer/builder, but which were not followed by DLF Ltd in this case.

The order of the Commission has been passed in case number 19 of 2010.

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With Thanks & Regards:

 

Dr.Tariq  Ashraf   I   Delhi University Library System I University of Delhi South Campus   I  Benito Juarez Road  New Delhi (India )110021 I  Email: tar...@gmail.com i  ta...@south.du.ac.in I  Ph: 011-24110221  Fax: 011-24110221  I   M:9868335593 I  Website: http://www.du.ac.in

[Neeraj Narula]

Hi all,

Wishing all the friends a very happy new year.

Please find attached the Flat Owners Association formation rules for UP 2010. Exhibit - B - Model Bye Laws are clearly defined for forming the Flat Owners association. Hope this would guide us for future action.

@Ankur Gupta : FYI and comments,

Neeraj Narula 

On Thursday, January 3, 2013 7:04:44 PM UTC+5:30, Amit Kumar wrote:

[pawanarya9851]

Hi
I will be visiting the paramount office today the Sunday 13 jan pls let me know if anyone wishes to join
Thanks
Pawan Arya

[Mohan Jindal]

No one will be available there on Sunday...

 

Regards,
Mohan Jindal

---

From: pawanarya9851 <pawana...@gmail.com>
To: paramount-flora...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sunday, 13 January 2013, 1:31
Subject: [paramount-floraville-residents:399] Re: Meeting update and action item 30/12/2012

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[Praveen Sharma]

Dear all,

my only request and suggestion is to have all correspondence with Builder either by letter duly received at builder office or through speed post with delivery proof.

it is very important at later stage, even if there is no reply from builders side.

regards,

Praveen Sharma   

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[Neeraj Narula]

Hi Friends,

I just spoken to one Mr. Vijay Trivedi (Director member of NEFOMA (Noida Extension Flat Owners and Members Association) 09958082973 and discussed about our ongoing tussle and issues with the builder.

The great news is that NEFOMA which started as the association for Noida Extension flat owners but as of now is a huge self sustaining association and willing to drive the movement against the atrocities of builder encompassing all the projects in Noida, Greater Noida or even Ghaziabad. Mr. Vijay agreed to support us for all Paramount Flat owners and said that they can even represent us to the builder to resolve the issues.

On 20th Jan 2013, they are holding a rally at Noida extension - Greater Noida West and we have been asked to join in for support as well as having a detailed discussions on the ongoing issues.

I request you all those to confirm who can make it tomorrow at 12 Noon at Noida Ext. with me to support our cause as I am going ahead for this rally / meeting . I think they can extend us great support in terms of legal support.

Please confirm me on my mobile No. 099100 99445

Neeraj Narula

On Thursday, January 3, 2013 7:04:44 PM UTC+5:30, Amit Kumar wrote:

[Neeraj Narula]

Friends,  

The following rally is holding tomorrow and we have to meet Mr. Vijay at this place. Please confirm your participation.

Neeraj

NEFOMA-Noida Extension Flat Owners & Members Association

Yesterday

On Thursday, January 3, 2013 7:04:44 PM UTC+5:30, Amit Kumar wrote:

[Atin Gupta]

Hi Neeraj,

Have you met with Mr. Vijay? Please share the details.

Thanks,

Atin

[Amit Kumar]

Hello Attin,

We met with Mr. Vijay and the discussion was fruitful.

One good thing we got to know, association can be formed and register anywhere in India. Everything depend on what role, responsibility and boundary we are setting in memorandum. So now we can register our association in Delhi and fight with Paramount. We would also need at least seven core member to run the association and fixed number of meeting in a year, etc Here we need Ankur support to get it done.  

He has also suggested, as an individual we can go ahead and file a case in consumer court. In my opinion if we can form association in 2 weeks time frame then we can talk to builder and try to sort this out peacefully. 

We are not sure whether we can only file case individually or filling in a group is also allowed. In both cases we can hire one layer and he'll take care of everything.

I think going ahead strategy should be to identify legal and account expert from our group and form the association ASAP. 1 month of grace period is already gone. And we all know project is already 12-15 month delay in best case.

Neeraj and Manish, Pls add If I misses anything.

[ankur gugpta]

Even an individual can file a case against the builder.     Regards Ankur Gupta   --- On Tue, 22/1/13, Amit Kumar <amita...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[ankur gugpta]

I think we should start preparing ourself to file a case before the consumer forum, since, formation of an association or not, builder is not going to listen to us now, otherwise, he owuld not have issued the revised interest calculations.     Regards Ankur

--- On Tue, 22/1/13, Amit Kumar <amita...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Amit Kumar <amita...@gmail.com> Subject: [paramount-floraville-residents:427] Re: Meeting update and action item 30/12/2012 To: paramount-flora...@googlegroups.com Date: Tuesday, 22 January, 2013, 4:54 PM

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[Amit Kumar]

I agree with Ankur, in fact I was also thinking in similar direction. It's evident builder is not going to change status quo. Who all are in favor of filing case against builder can meet on coming sat/sun.

Ankur, it would be great help if you can help/guide us in preparing our case.

I think one point would be common for all, why interest component not appeared in subsequent demand letter. We would have learnt our lesson from the first installment. Builder intention was malicious and they allow interest component to grow over a period of more than 2 yrs.

[pummyc...@yahoo.com]

Hi Amit

We should go ahead and form the association.

Regarding filing of case, it is the individuals choice, as he is the most directly affected and the best person to decide the course of action best suited to him.

Regards
Pummy
Sent on my BlackBerry® from Vodafone Essar

-----Original Message-----
From: Amit Kumar <amita...@gmail.com>
Sender: paramount-flora...@googlegroups.com
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 07:55:06
To: <paramount-flora...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [paramount-floraville-residents:430] Re: Meeting update and
action item 30/12/2012

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[Nandini Srivastava]

 Dear Mr. Ajay
 Please let me have the name of your friend, as ours is a similar case.
 Also, who did you speak to in this connection at the Paramount office?
 Every time we have gone there , we found the back end staff very irrational.

 Regards
 Mrs. N. Srivastava

[Manish Panjwani]

I think, it was good to meet Mr. Vijay. 

He mentioned that we can only file an individual case in consumer court. A group or an association can NOT file a case in consumer court. 

We also verified if we have a valid points to go for consumer court 

1. Some of the earlier receipts from builder does not have Service Tax mentioned. All of a sudden, one of the payment against the demand letter was adjusted against past outstanding service tax (sometime in 2011) - for which we never received a demand letter. This shows that builder is not following legal practice in raising the right demand letter and taking payments under consideration. This causes imbalance of accounts on the buyer part - causing outstanding and chargeable for interest. 

2. (for whom the revised interest demand letter received) - Again, legal practice is not followed by intimating buyers about any outstanding/overdue interest payment in every demand letter raised by them. 

3. (for whom the revised interest demand letter received OR not received) - Receiving letter of interest and pulling-off in December-2012 was mental agony. 

4. No status on delivery of the project to buyers. 

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As per my understanding, forming an association would not really impact on the results that we are looking at. As course of action would be really from going to consumer court - individually. Bulk cases in consumer court against the builder for a specific project is considered as a big deal.

I'm suggesting to meet this Sunday, Jan-27th, at 11:00 am at Star City Mall, Opposite Mayur Vihar Phase -1 Extension metro station for further discussion and immediate next steps. 

 

Regards,

Manish

On Wed, Jan 23, 2013 at 2:12 PM, Manish Panjwani <panj...@gmail.com> wrote:

I think, it was good to meet Mr. Vijay. 

He mentioned that we can only file an individual case in consumer court. A group or an association can NOT file a case in consumer court. 

We also verified if we have a valid points to go for consumer court 

1. Some of the earlier receipts from builder does not have Service Tax mentioned. All of a sudden, one of the payment against the demand letter was adjusted against past outstanding service tax (sometime in 2011) - for which we never received a demand letter. This shows that builder is not following legal practice in raising the right demand letter and taking payments under consideration. This causes imbalance of accounts on the buyer part - causing outstanding and chargeable for interest. 

2. (for whom the revised interest demand letter received) - Again, legal practice is not followed by intimating buyers about any outstanding/overdue interest payment in every demand letter raised by them. 

3. (for whom the revised interest demand letter received OR not received) - Receiving letter of interest and pulling-off in December-2012 was mental agony. 

4. No status on delivery of the project to buyers. 

---------

As per my understanding, forming an association would not really impact on the results that we are looking at. As course of action would be really from going to consumer court - individually. Bulk cases in consumer court against the builder for a specific project is considered as a big deal.

I'm suggesting to meet this Sunday, Jan-27th, at 11:00 am at Star City Mall, Opposite Mayur Vihar Phase -1 Extension metro station for further discussion and immediate next steps. 

 

Regards,

Manish

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[Sarabjit Jagirdar]

must also add that there is no access to the project for the buyer/owner of the apartment --- On Wed, 1/23/13, Manish Panjwani <panj...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Muntazir Hussain]

Yes we should go ahead to form an association but plaese wait further for filing the case. Association as collective will pursue the matter with builder and we should use "filing the case" as warning against the builder.

 

Regards,

 

Muntazir Hussain

 

Iris 204

 

9927036148

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[Nandini Srivastava]

 Hi Amit
 Forming the association is ok, but filing individual cases in the consumer court, will that not delay the possession?
 From what I have seen , they are very unprofessional, and have a vindictive and malafide intent to harass the customers.
 Do you think they are really going to delay the possession by a year or so?
 I have heard from their staff that they have instructions to start sending the offer of possession/ registration etc by March 2013, because otherwise they will have to start shelling out hefty penalties.
 Also, at the offer of possession, they will be able to take more money from us, atleast the 10% that is due.
 We need to be very careful how we deal with them because,even after registration,they can still delay the physical hand-over of the flat by making excuses like the electricity connections and power back-up connections are to be done,which can be done only after the actual registration of the flat in your name.
 Regards
 Mrs. N. Srivastavba

[Amit Kumar]

Hello Nandini,

We've already made our payment so fighting for interest shouldn't be the reason for delay. On interest issue we've disagreement with builder and we want consumer court to decide right or wrong. We feel cheated because they didn't mention interest component in subsequent demand letter. They deliberately allowed to grow interest amount substantially.

I think you visited the site on 30th Dec and its evident possession will take another 12-15 month. So not sure how they will send the possession letter in March. How they'll complete?

10% money @ possession is due only with the CLP customer. what I heard from the customer (Flexi mode) they've already given close to 100% only IFMS is pending. 

For your worry, I think what we can do while filing case in consumer forum we can also ask for possession date since we've not received any communication from builder.

[Nandini Srivastava]

Hi Amit
Sure we can go ahead with the Consumer court.
Also, I feel that let us do a reality check as to when they will be sending the offer letters for possession.
Some of us very helpful staff at the back-end like Ms. Shikha and  Ms.Ritika, (unfortunately they are not handling my case),so maybe a call to them should suffice to let us know about the approx. date of possession.
 Regards
 Ms. N. Srivastava

[Nandini Srivastava]

Hi Amit
 Need to discuss some points with you. Can you share your number please?
 Regards
 Ms. N. Srivastava

[Amit Kumar]

Hello Nandini,

I discussed with tower K SPOC. She is having no idea about the date of possession. She repeated the same old story, "You'll get possession as per the agreement if we are failed to do so we'll give you penalty". She said we'll start giving possession from March onward but when I mentioned, a month back I've visited the site and it'll take at least 1 more year. After this statement she said she is in back-office work so no idea about possession. you need to check with the marketing team. She was also giving Saurya's number. 

I had already spoken with their marketing head on that day and he was suggesting to check with corporate office. So I guess we are not going anywhere. They are just buying time with different statement and stopping us to visiting the site to gauge the actual progress.        

Thanks

Amit