Hunza summer 2011 - William Palmer

[Brendan Reid]

http://vimeo.com/channels/paragliding#31073917 

[Brendan Reid]

a better link

http://vimeo.com/31073917 

On 26 October 2011 23:08, Brendan Reid <bren...@gmail.com> wrote:

http://vimeo.com/channels/paragliding#31073917 

[William Palmer]

Thanks for the recognition there! It was a great summer. Thanks for
the help PAFF people and Brad!

[jabbar Bhatti]

Hi Will, You ar most welcomed.

 

Jabbar Bhatti.

On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 3:31 AM, William Palmer <wfp...@googlemail.com> wrote:

Thanks for the recognition there! It was a great summer. Thanks for
the help PAFF people and Brad!

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[Brad Sander]

Will,

Nice video and great to hear you had a successful trip this summer. Again thanks to Jabbar, Sajjad and the other guys at PAFF for doing so much work to welcome foreign pilots. Planning a flying trip to Pakistan can be very intimidating but we've seen over and over how much support there is from this group. Any of us who have traveled and been so well received know the reality in Pakistan is pretty much the opposite of the media's version and our own preconceived ideas of what a flying trip to Pakistan will be like.

Now Will your job is simple... Tell your story about what Pakistani's are really like to all your friends and family!! For me, as I'm now in Minnesota on my familys farm I'm reminded over and over again how persistant we have to be to change false perceptions. 

Thanks again... and nice time lapse in the video.

Brad

[Eddie Colfox]

Excellent post Brad. I agree entirely about the huge help from PAFF and the kindness of all the Pakistanis I've met in my my travels there. 

Hoping to return in 2012

Eddie

Sent from my iPhone

[sirajulmulk]

Heart warming news. Thanks.

Hindukush Heights Chitral . ph++92-943413151 cell 03449700800 fax413153 www.hindukush.com.pk

---

From: Eddie Colfox <eddie...@hotmail.co.uk>

Sender: paraglide...@googlegroups.com

Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 14:15:39 +0100

To: paraglide...@googlegroups.com<paraglide...@googlegroups.com>

ReplyTo: paraglide...@googlegroups.com

Cc: paraglide...@googlegroups.com<paraglide...@googlegroups.com>

Subject: Re: [Paraglide Pakistan 266] Re: Hunza summer 2011 - William Palmer

[robert van den ham]

Hi William,
Nice video. I was in Hunza and chitral last year and it is great to
recognize the landscape.It looks like you had great flying conditions!
I will return next May for some more Vol Biv.

[pierre puiseux]

I completely agree with you, and more.

I've never seen such hospitality in any other country i've travelled in.

Never seen such a difference between reality and official occidental discourses.

  

I plan to come back to pk next summer.

Pierre

[almughtasim billah]

Chitral has a unique cultural tradition unlike other parts of the
Khyber pakhtoonkhwa. It is peaceful and tranquil. We wellcome all such
events which could help to enhance the tourism industry. We are very
much enthusiastic about the job we r doing. Paragliding has a great
future in this area. Majority of the world highest mountains are
situated in this region. These initiative could also serve as a
bridging gap steps between our country and the west.

regards

--
AJNABI UDDAS MUSAFIR

[almughtasim billah]

Zahir U Din Baber: Wednesday, November 2, 2011Unusual flying
The story of Nasty flying

It was nearly evening ,when I landed safely in a filed surrounded by
tall and small trees on the top most part of the Zezdi, a village
beyond the river in the Torkhow velly,almost 20 km away from the
point, where suddenly I was taken off by a strong gust of wind.

We usually go for ground practice; to the different spots of Qaqlasht
platue. It was 30th of October 2011 in the afternoon we decided to go
for short flights on the Qaqlasht platue.To day was also one of the
normal days. It was a bit windy. Light clouds were covering the sky
for a while and than the weather seemed normal. Any way we got to the
point, where we spread our gliders, and started ground handling. The
wind was normal, and both of my friends made short flights from the
nearby hills.

While ground handling, I tried to practice a reverse launch turned
quickly, the same movement I took off, and within few seconds I was in
the height of the sky. I realized that the dark clouds were going on
their way, and I was sucked by the clouds. It was like a gigantic
creature had made me it’s pray.

My glider was not moving towards ahead. During this time, I was not
able to sit comfortably in my harness. I tried once to bring myself
right in to harness, but it didn’t work. I left the idea, and tried to
see down below me. Within few minutes I could hardly to see my friends
and their gliders. The hills below me were getting smaller in moments.
This time I was parallel to the peeks of the Hindukush and Hindu rage
mountain ranges. I started feeling cold, as I had not enough warm
cloths.

Facing to the west, I saw a huge piece of cloud, dark in the front,
was fastly approaching me, though still in distance. I had no option
except to do spiral in my mind, which I had never experienced before
ever. Any way I had to survive and go away from the strong grips of
the dark clouds. I knew that if I was further taken up in the sky, I
even would not survive due to the cold, and I would further not be
able to control over the glider, against the unexpected situation.

I said to myself, it is already late, do some thing, what you can, but
never done before.
I pulled my left break and released the right one. Now what I see! I
was sitting in the middle and the mountains bellow me were circling
around. The glider was just opposite of me. Must be few seconds, I
felt my head very heavy, as if some thing abnormal was happening with
me. I found the very high pressure on my glider NOVA DHV1/2, which is
almost a new one. I released the break and realized that I had lost
not enough height.

Next option what I had heard or read, was to full stall the glider. I
pulled down both the control lines. This time what happened with me is
not easy to explain. I was falling from the sky. I could hear the
sound of my wing swing ahead and back above me. My face was towards
the sky, and I was feeling heavy above my chest. I had pulled the
breaks and now I thought that I should released them slowly. Within
few seconds my glider reopened and swung in the air. I had lost enough
height. I decided to take the way towards Torkhow valley. This time I
had released my self from the sucking of the clouds. I was flying with
tailwind. My speed was more than normal. Crossing the mountains
situated between the Mastuj and mulkhow rivers, I reached above the
Torkhow valley.
After flying for nearly two hours I was able to make formation to land
in the Zezdi village, beyond the river.

Posted Mughtasim Billah

--
AJNABI UDDAS MUSAFIR

[almughtasim billah]

paraglidingchitral.blogspot.com

--
AJNABI UDDAS MUSAFIR

[sirajulmulk]

What a hair-raising experience. Only a paraglider pilot can understand what William Palmer was experiencing that day. The weather system of 30th Oct is still over Chitral. Thank God Palmer is safe to share this experience with us. Thank you. Siraj Ulmulk, Chitral.

Hindukush Heights Chitral . ph++92-943413151 cell 03449700800 fax413153 www.hindukush.com.pk

[William Palmer]

It wasn't me!

[sirajulmulk]

Who was it may I ask?

[robert van den ham]

It was Baber from Booni as I understand it. Likes to learn the hard way. Could have been very nasty. Glad it ended the way it did.

> Subject: Re: [Paraglide Pakistan 275] Re: Hunza summer 2011 - William Palmer
> To: paraglide...@googlegroups.com
> From: siraj...@gmail.com
> Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 07:46:11 +0000

[sirajulmulk]

Thanks I will get in touch with him.

Hindukush Heights Chitral . ph++92-943413151 cell 03449700800 fax413153 www.hindukush.com.pk

---

From: robert van den ham <robb...@hotmail.com>

Sender: paraglide...@googlegroups.com

Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 08:00:43 +0000

To: paraglide pakistan<paraglide...@googlegroups.com>

ReplyTo: paraglide...@googlegroups.com

Subject: RE: [Paraglide Pakistan 276] Re: Hunza summer 2011 - William Palmer

[mukrim sisic]

Hi Siraj, can you tell Baber to contact me trough email. I consider him as a friend.  I think he is very lucky that he survived.  Conditions that he described strike fear to any pilot. To be fair he is also talented flier and it is not unusual that he looks for a challenge. Only problem is that Hindukush and Hinduraj could easily be way to challenging even  for very well equipped top pilots.  In short they have to be very careful about conditions that they want to fly. By now they should be able to judge conditions. I have seen  one video on youtube where one local PG flier flew short flight in very strong and dangerous cond. , this was from small hill near Booni (above socker field). Baber in this reported flight pulled two "extreme" maneuvers; one is spiral, another if full stall. If one can not practice them one should have solid knowledge about theory behind them: in which situation you pull them, how to pull them, and how to properly  exit them.Glad to hear that he did not make big mess.   Full stall is not recommended maneuver to lose the height in situation like that, rate of height loss is relatively small, maintenance of full stall for prolonged period is hard and could be messy, exit has to be timed properly only when wing is before you, or above you, otherwise there is danger of excessive forward surge that may send pilot into the wing, or lead to cascade of bad events,.....    Mukrim P. S. In a way this it is good that this happened, it should serve like warning for all of them, not as good adventure story. They should change their attitude toward learning and PG in general. PG has to be about being smart, skilled, and informed, being brave is something that should be trimmed not really encouraged. --- On Thu, 11/3/11, sirajulmulk <siraj...@gmail.com> wrote:

[almughtasim billah]

Dear Sir

This is Mughtasim Billalh from Booni.

Baber Contact Number Is: +92-307-8540384

> ph++92-943413151 cell 03449700800 fax413153 www.hindukush.com.pkFrom:

> robert van den ham <robb...@hotmail.com>
> Sender: paraglide...@googlegroups.com

> Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 08:00:43 +0000To: paraglide

[sirajulmulk]

Dear Mukrim
Baber says he owes you his life. He says when he was up there helpless he remembered some of the maneuvers you had talked about to him. That was the only armament he had against all odds. He had never practiced what you had mentioned but it was there in his mind. So he just went ahead with it and here he is to tell the tale.
He is at zahirud...@gmail.com waiting to communicate with you.
Regards
Siraj Ulmulk

Hindukush Heights Chitral . ph++92-943413151 cell 03449700800 fax413153 www.hindukush.com.pk

---

From: mukrim sisic <krug...@yahoo.com>

Sender: paraglide...@googlegroups.com

Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 05:05:43 -0700 (PDT)

To: <paraglide...@googlegroups.com>

ReplyTo: paraglide...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [Paraglide Pakistan 278] Re: Hunza summer 2011 - William Palmer

[mukrim sisic]

I am glad that he managed to use it for good. He does not owe me much, only  bowl of cherries, when I come next time. In a meanwhile they should all make extra effort to stay healthy and alive.    Thanks for the email and phone no.

[Christian Rank]

Hi together,

yesterday I had e-mail contact with Baber.
I gave him (in my opinion) important instructions about the methods "how to go down fast with a paraglider".
One really important information in my opinion is, that a full stall is not a safe method to go down fast!
To use a full stall to go down fast can be for a standard pilot pretty dangerous!
I explained Baber and Muzafar three save manoeuvres for going down fast.
I thought that informations could be also interesting for other Pakistan pilots (If� I wrote something wrong because of my bad English or bad explanation, I want to request every pilot in that group to correct any wrong explanations!):


First E-Mail to Baber (explanation Spiral):
Hi Babar,

I read your new blog abut your actual adventure.
Your story is pretty dangerous.
I know, everybody can get in such a situation.
But a thing what you have to know: With a correct spiral you can have more than 20m/s sink, with a full stall you can have not more than 10m/s sink. A full stall is not a manoever for going down fast. A full stall can be very dangerous. A stall should do only really good pilots. Also good pilots train their first full stalls above wather with a rescue system.
In Austria flying schools we train spirals for such situations like you had. Its importat, that you try spirals first in quiet air. At the beginning verry smooth spirals and after you feel confidente in smooth spirals you can try fast spirals, but be also carefully with fast spirals, it can happen that you become senseless and you spiral senseless down to the ground!! so please try sipraling step by step harder. Another comfortable (but not so effectife) alternative is a B-Stall. Do you know what a B-Stall is? If you need an explanation for a B- Stall please tell me.

Please take care!
Christian

Second E-Mail (B-stall and big ears)

b-stall (about 8-10m/s)
you have to pull the b-risers down until the glider don`t have forward speed (horizontal speed), during the b-stall the glider has only vertical down speed.
keep the risers in that position.
If you want to end the b-stall rise up the b-risers quickly into the normal position (its important that you do it quickly otherwise your glider will go into a sack-flight which can be dangerous).
If you follow this advice the glider should change into the normal glide flight.
At older gliders it can happen that the glider don`t have forward speed although� you gave the b risers into the normal position quickly (that means sack-flight).
If that happens,� you have to push the speed bar. After pushing the speed bar the glider should do a normal glide flight.
That videos will show how to do a B-stall:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytz-4tDDVLo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2htVbTw8eo&feature=related

big ears (2-4m/s)
At big ears you have to collaps the glider at his both "ears"
you have to pull down the outer A-line� at each side symmetric (that much you pull down that much more will collaps that much sink you will have).
If you push the speed bar during your glider has big ears you will have also more sink (push the speed bar after you pulled down the A lines)
When you want to go back into the normal glide flight, than you have to go out of the speed bar first and than let go the A-lines.
Than the collaps should open. If the glider do not open the wingtips pump a little bit (not too strong!!) on the breaks (symmetric) and the "ears" will open.

The big ears are a method for example, you could have used at the beginning of your "adventure" you had. If you had done big ears with speed bar at the beginning may be that would have been enough to go down with no stress.
Here a movie to the topic big ears:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FouMulGet60&feature=related


If something is not clear for you because of my bad English or because you don`t understand some terms please ask me before you try my instructions!

And for all manoeuvres I toled you, it`s important that you exercise it in quiet air and with enough hight.
Please try spirals, B-stall and big ears only at flights from the zani pass, there you have enought hight to try it.
You have to be more than 300m above the ground for trying that things.
If something goes wrong, you have enough hight that the glider goes back into the normal flight.

After you tried big ears several times successful, you can use the big ears also closer to the ground.

I hope I helped you with my instructions.

And one thing I want to tell you again, because its really really important:
Don`t do full stalls!
Full stalls are not a method for going down fast! That is a wrong information that full stalls are a standard manoeuvre for going down fast!
Babar, you had luck, that nothing happened after you gave the breaks free after the full stall!
With a B-Stall you have nearly the same sink and that manoeuvre is much more easier!


Salaam Aleikum
Christian


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

�� �

Am 03.11.2011 23:07, schrieb mukrim sisic:

��� I am glad that he managed to use it for good. He does not owe me much, only� bowl of

cherries, when I come next time. In a meanwhile they should all make extra effort to stay healthy and alive.

�� Thanks for the email and phone no.

--- On Thu, 11/3/11, sirajulmulk <siraj...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: sirajulmulk <siraj...@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Paraglide Pakistan 280] Re: Hunza summer 2011 - William Palmer To: paraglide...@googlegroups.com Received: Thursday, November 3, 2011, 6:07 AM

Dear Mukrim Baber says he owes you his life. He says when he was up there helpless he remembered some of the maneuvers you had talked about to him. That was the only armament he had against all odds. He had never practiced what you had mentioned but it was there in his mind. So he just went ahead with it and here he is to tell the tale. He is at zahirud...@gmail.com waiting to communicate with you. Regards Siraj Ulmulk Hindukush Heights Chitral . ph++92-943413151 cell 03449700800 fax413153 www.hindukush.com.pk From: mukrim sisic <krug...@yahoo.com> Sender: paraglide...@googlegroups.com Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 05:05:43 -0700 (PDT) To: <paraglide...@googlegroups.com> ReplyTo: paraglide...@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [Paraglide Pakistan 278] Re: Hunza summer 2011 - William Palmer

Hi Siraj, can you tell Baber to contact me trough email. I consider him as a friend.� I think he is very lucky that he survived.� Conditions that he described strike fear to any pilot. To be fair he is also talented flier and it is not unusual that he looks for a challenge. Only problem is that Hindukush and Hinduraj could easily be way to challenging even� for very well equipped top pilots.� In short they have to be very careful about conditions that they want to fly. By now they should be able to judge conditions. I have seen� one video on youtube where one local PG flier flew short flight in very strong and dangerous cond. , this was from small hill near Booni (above socker field). Baber in this reported flight pulled two "extreme" maneuvers; one is spiral, another if full stall. If one can not practice them one should have solid knowledge about theory behind them: in which situation you pull them, how to pull them, and how to properly� exit them.Glad to hear that he did not make big mess. �

Full stall is not recommended maneuver to lose the height in situation like that, rate of height loss is relatively small, maintenance of full stall for prolonged period is hard and could be messy, exit has to be timed properly only when wing is before you, or above you, otherwise there is danger of excessive forward surge that may send pilot into the wing, or lead to cascade of bad events,.....

�� Mukrim

> >> creature had made me it�s pray.

> >> > >> > >> My glider was not moving towards ahead. During this time, I was not > >> able to sit comfortably in my harness. I tried once to bring myself

> >> right in to harness, but it didn�t work. I left the idea, and tried to

> >>>> Le 27 oct. 2011 � 20:09, Brad Sander a �crit :

�

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[mukrim sisic]

Hi Christian, before I went to Pakistan I come across your name it was among those that flew there before.I read about your adventures. I was also about to suggest to give some advices here on this group to our Friends in N. Pakistan, but I was not sure if this would be out of scope of this Paraglide Pakistan group, may be Brendan can give his opinion about this. Having this in mind and some other things  I wanted to contact Baber directly. I also wanted to point out few things about descending techniques, and give personal advice in general, since I know Baber and most of the PG in Chitral area. But since you did it and made it public let me express my view on these concrete issues: 1.First of all I am not sure if it is good advice to tell them to really  practice these manuvers right now. To know the theory I am sure it is good, just in case it may save the life if something similar ever happens again.  It is better to know it than to stay ignorant, but to make step further and go ahead with practice without rescue sistems and real supervision, radio contact of instructor even from Zani Pass it is too much for them. Most of them don't even fly airworthy gliders, so there is issue if those gliders can withstand stress that irregular flying attitudes create. 2. Apart from lack of rescue parachute they don't even have speed bars installed, some of them do, but they don't use it or if they ever did I can guarantee you that they don't know what they are supposed to know to use it properly...  All this opens new can of worms: For instance you have to teach them that once they use Big Ears they have to be familiar with pushing the bar as well, at least 1/3 of it. You have to tell them that is absolute no to pull and release the ears near the ground, also you have to warn them that pulling the ears can cause the stall, especially if they hold the brakes while doing this.If they start to practice this without supervision I am sure they will pull brakes with outer A lines too, and of course this may cause them to stall the wing.  Also stall is more likely to occur if you pull ears both sides at once, hence it is better to pull them one at the time and release them one at the time. Also once you pull the ears speed bar has to be engaged to make glider less prone to stall.... For all of this new can of worms they have to contact us and ask questions, It has to be two way road of communication. Now since you gave Baber direct advice,  he (or they) will have enough food to chew, but they have to ask questions and engage themselves more, because all this knowledge is not like coin of money that one can simply pass to another, it is complex and alive, sometimes changing and expanding. Here I sit and hope he will contact me  with relevant questions, that I am keen to answer and add to their pool of knowledge. --- On Fri, 11/4/11, Christian Rank <christi...@gmx.at> wrote:

From: Christian Rank <christi...@gmx.at> Subject: Re: [Paraglide Pakistan 282] Re: Hunza summer 2011 - William Palmer To: paraglide...@googlegroups.com Received: Friday, November 4, 2011, 5:59 AM

Hi together, yesterday I had e-mail contact with Baber. I gave him (in my opinion) important instructions about the methods "how to go down fast with a paraglider". One really important information in my opinion is, that a full stall is not a safe method to go down fast! To use a full stall to go down fast can be for a standard pilot pretty dangerous! I explained Baber and Muzafar three save manoeuvres for going down fast.

I thought that informations could be also interesting for other Pakistan pilots (If  I wrote something wrong because of my bad English or bad explanation, I want to request every pilot in that group to correct any wrong explanations!):

First E-Mail to Baber (explanation Spiral): Hi Babar, I read your new blog abut your actual adventure. Your story is pretty dangerous. I know, everybody can get in such a situation. But a thing what you have to know: With a correct spiral you can have more than 20m/s sink, with a full stall you can have not more than 10m/s sink. A full stall is not a manoever for going down fast. A full stall can be very dangerous. A stall should do only really good pilots. Also good pilots train their first full stalls above wather with a rescue system. In Austria flying schools we train spirals for such situations like you had. Its importat, that you try spirals first in quiet air. At the beginning verry smooth spirals and after you feel confidente in smooth spirals you can try fast spirals, but be also carefully with fast spirals, it can happen that you become senseless and you spiral senseless down to the ground!! so please try sipraling step by step harder. Another comfortable (but not so effectife) alternative is a B-Stall. Do you know what a B-Stall is? If you need an explanation for a B- Stall please tell me. Please take care! Christian Second E-Mail (B-stall and big ears) b-stall (about 8-10m/s) you have to pull the b-risers down until the glider don`t have forward speed (horizontal speed), during the b-stall the glider has only vertical down speed. keep the risers in that position. If you want to end the b-stall rise up the b-risers quickly into the normal position (its important that you do it quickly otherwise your glider will go into a sack-flight which can be dangerous). If you follow this advice the glider should change into the normal glide flight.

At older gliders it can happen that the glider don`t have forward speed although  you gave the b risers into the normal position quickly (that means sack-flight). If that happens,  you have to push the speed bar. After pushing the speed bar the glider should do a normal glide flight.

That videos will show how to do a B-stall: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytz-4tDDVLo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2htVbTw8eo&feature=related big ears (2-4m/s) At big ears you have to collaps the glider at his both "ears"

you have to pull down the outer A-line  at each side symmetric (that much you pull down that much more will collaps that much sink you will have).

If you push the speed bar during your glider has big ears you will have also more sink (push the speed bar after you pulled down the A lines) When you want to go back into the normal glide flight, than you have to go out of the speed bar first and than let go the A-lines. Than the collaps should open. If the glider do not open the wingtips pump a little bit (not too strong!!) on the breaks (symmetric) and the "ears" will open. The big ears are a method for example, you could have used at the beginning of your "adventure" you had. If you had done big ears with speed bar at the beginning may be that would have been enough to go down with no stress. Here a movie to the topic big ears: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FouMulGet60&feature=related If something is not clear for you because of my bad English or because you don`t understand some terms please ask me before you try my instructions! And for all manoeuvres I toled you, it`s important that you exercise it in quiet air and with enough hight. Please try spirals, B-stall and big ears only at flights from the zani pass, there you have enought hight to try it. You have to be more than 300m above the ground for trying that things. If something goes wrong, you have enough hight that the glider goes back into the normal flight. After you tried big ears several times successful, you can use the big ears also closer to the ground. I hope I helped you with my instructions. And one thing I want to tell you again, because its really really important: Don`t do full stalls! Full stalls are not a method for going down fast! That is a wrong information that full stalls are a standard manoeuvre for going down fast! Babar, you had luck, that nothing happened after you gave the breaks free after the full stall! With a B-Stall you have nearly the same sink and that manoeuvre is much more easier! Salaam Aleikum Christian ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Am 03.11.2011 23:07, schrieb mukrim sisic:

I am glad that he managed to use it for good. He does not owe me much, only  bowl of

cherries, when I come next time. In a meanwhile they should all make extra effort to stay healthy and alive.

Thanks for the email and phone no. --- On Thu, 11/3/11, sirajulmulk <siraj...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: sirajulmulk <siraj...@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Paraglide Pakistan 280] Re: Hunza summer 2011 - William Palmer To: paraglide...@googlegroups.com Received: Thursday, November 3, 2011, 6:07 AM

Dear Mukrim Baber says he owes you his life. He says when he was up there helpless he remembered some of the maneuvers you had talked about to him. That was the only armament he had against all odds. He had never practiced what you had mentioned but it was there in his mind. So he just went ahead with it and here he is to tell the tale. He is at zahirud...@gmail.com waiting to communicate with you. Regards Siraj Ulmulk Hindukush Heights Chitral . ph++92-943413151 cell 03449700800 fax413153 www.hindukush.com.pk From: mukrim sisic <krug...@yahoo.com> Sender: paraglide...@googlegroups.com Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 05:05:43 -0700 (PDT) To: <paraglide...@googlegroups.com> ReplyTo: paraglide...@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [Paraglide Pakistan 278] Re: Hunza summer 2011 - William Palmer

Hi Siraj, can you tell Baber to contact me trough email. I consider him as a friend.  I think he is very lucky that he survived.  Conditions that he described strike fear to any pilot. To be fair he is also talented flier and it is not unusual that he looks for a challenge. Only problem is that Hindukush and Hinduraj could easily be way to challenging even  for very well equipped top pilots.  In short they have to be very careful about conditions that they want to fly. By now they should be able to judge conditions. I have seen  one video on youtube where one local PG flier flew short flight in very strong and dangerous cond. , this was from small hill near Booni (above socker field). Baber in this reported flight pulled two "extreme" maneuvers; one is spiral, another if full stall. If one can not practice them one should have solid knowledge about theory behind them: in which situation you pull them, how to pull them, and how to properly  exit them.Glad to hear that he did not make big mess.

Full stall is not recommended maneuver to lose the height in situation like that, rate of height loss is relatively small, maintenance of full stall for prolonged period is hard and could be messy, exit has to be timed properly only when wing is before you, or above you, otherwise there is danger of excessive forward surge that may send pilot into the wing, or lead to cascade of bad events,.....

> >> creature had made me it’s pray.

> >> > >> > >> My glider was not moving towards ahead. During this time, I was not > >> able to sit comfortably in my harness. I tried once to bring myself

> >> right in to harness, but it didn’t work. I left the idea, and tried to

[almughtasim billah]

Dear Mukrim & christian Rank.

Thanks for your quick response.

We are pleased to have your advise what you had given us during your
stay in Booni Chitral Pakistan. Here in Booni we have usually internet
problem, therefore we cannot make in easy contact with you.

We are going to lern more & more about techniques from different ways.
Being a good pilot your advise & guidenence will be fruitful for us.

We expect in future your people help us and promote paragliding in our
region. As we have established a club in Booni in the Name of
Terichmir Paragliding Club (TPC) in the help of Pakistan Free Flying.

We have also acted upon your advise and contact it with Paragliders
abroad and in the country as well.

Thanks & Regards!

Baber & Mughtasim Billah

Baber's Email:zahirud...@gmail.com

Contact No.+923078570384

Mughtasim: Cell:+923459000066

> cherries, when I come next time. In a

> meanwhile they should all make extra effort to stay healthy and alive.
>
> Thanks for the email and phone no.
>
> --- On Thu, 11/3/11, sirajulmulk <siraj...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> From: sirajulmulk <siraj...@gmail.com>
>
> Subject: Re: [Paraglide Pakistan 280] Re: Hunza summer 2011 - William
> Palmer
>
> To: paraglide...@googlegroups.com
>
> Received: Thursday, November 3, 2011, 6:07 AM
>
>
>
>
> Dear Mukrim
>
> Baber says he owes you his life. He says when he was up there helpless
> he remembered some of the maneuvers you had talked about to him. That
> was the only armament he had against all odds. He had never practiced
> what you had mentioned but it was there in his mind. So he just went
> ahead with it and here he is to tell the tale.
>
> He is at zahirud...@gmail.com waiting to communicate with you.
>
> Regards
>
> Siraj Ulmulk
> Hindukush Heights Chitral . ph++92-943413151 cell
> 03449700800 fax413153 www.hindukush.com.pk
>

[Christian Rank]

Hi together,

In my opinion its important, that thy know everything about paragliding.
It`s not possible any more, to stop the paragliding hype in Pakistan, and it will be a big fault to ignore that don`t give them live essential advices.
If we don`t do that, other, may be not so educated people will give them wrong advices, advices which can be dangerous.
That more they know, that safer they will fly and that more respect they will have about paragliding.
And they have to get advices from educated paragliding pilots like we are, or better from paragliding teachers.
I am not in Pakistan at the moment, so the only possibility for me is to give them instructions via e-mail.
I thougt, after I read the e-mail traffic after Babers "accident", he did the fatal wrong manoeuvre, and nobody toled him that!
You are right, If they have no gliders in good conditions they should not fly with that gliders and in no case they should not try my advices.
Baber has got a glider in really good conditions and Muzafar will have one soon.
I think its important, that they try Big ears, spirals...step by step with the right equipment.
I remember, there was one guy in Chitral who is a flying teacher in Islamabad.
Does somebody know, if he has the right skills to teach them the basics?

Today I searched in the internet about school books for paragliding which are written in English.
May be there is a member in that group who has a instruction book about paragliding in English language at home.
I think it would be an important support for Baber and his friends to scan such a book and send them the book via e-mail.
I know that is not much support from my side, but its not possible for me to do more at the moment.
If its possible for me to come to Pakistan for me next spring, I will spend time to teach them.

I am happy, that today I got the first response form Babar via Facebook.
Its good, that they think about our fees and they starting to ask questions about paragliding techniques.

Salaam Aleikum
Christian


Am 04.11.2011 18:04, schrieb mukrim sisic:

Hi Christian, before I went to Pakistan I come across your name it was among those that flew there before.I read about your adventures. I was also about to suggest to give some advices here on this group to our Friends in N. Pakistan, but I was not sure if this would be out of scope of this Paraglide Pakistan group, may be Brendan can give his opinion about this. Having this in mind and some other things� I wanted to contact Baber directly. I also wanted to point out few things about descending techniques, and give personal advice in general, since I know Baber and most of the PG in Chitral area.

But since you did it and made it public let me express my view on these concrete issues:

1.First of all I am not sure if it is good advice to tell them to really� practice these manuvers right now. To know the theory I am sure it is good, just in case it may save the life if something similar ever happens again.� It is better to know it than to stay ignorant, but to make step further and go ahead with practice without rescue sistems and real supervision, radio contact of instructor even from Zani Pass it is too much for them. Most of them don't even fly airworthy gliders, so there is issue if those gliders can withstand stress that irregular flying attitudes create.

2. Apart from lack of rescue parachute they don't even have speed bars installed, some of them do, but they don't use it or if they ever did I can guarantee you that they don't know what they are supposed to know to use it properly...

�All this opens new can of worms: For instance you have to teach them that once they use Big Ears they have to be familiar with pushing the bar as well, at least 1/3 of it. You have to tell them that is absolute no to pull and release the ears near the ground, also you have to warn them that pulling the ears can cause the stall, especially if they hold the brakes while doing this.If they start to practice this without supervision I am sure they will pull brakes with outer A lines too, and of course this may cause them to stall the wing.� Also stall is more likely to occur if you pull ears both sides at once, hence it is better to pull them one at the time and release them one at the time. Also once you pull the ears speed bar has to be engaged to make glider less prone to stall.... For all of this new can of worms they have to contact us and ask questions, It has to be two way road of communication. Now since you gave Baber direct advice,� he (or they) will have enough food to chew, but they have to ask questions and engage themselves more, because all this knowledge is not like coin of money that one can simply pass to another, it is complex and alive, sometimes changing and expanding. Here I sit and hope he will contact me� with relevant questions, that I am keen to answer and add to their pool of knowledge.

--- On Fri, 11/4/11, Christian Rank <christi...@gmx.at> wrote:

From: Christian Rank <christi...@gmx.at> Subject: Re: [Paraglide Pakistan 282] Re: Hunza summer 2011 - William Palmer To: paraglide...@googlegroups.com Received: Friday, November 4, 2011, 5:59 AM

Hi together, yesterday I had e-mail contact with Baber. I gave him (in my opinion) important instructions about the methods "how to go down fast with a paraglider". One really important information in my opinion is, that a full stall is not a safe method to go down fast! To use a full stall to go down fast can be for a standard pilot pretty dangerous! I explained Baber and Muzafar three save manoeuvres for going down fast.

I thought that informations could be also interesting for other Pakistan pilots (If� I wrote something wrong because of my bad English or bad explanation, I want to request every pilot in that group to correct any wrong explanations!):

First E-Mail to Baber (explanation Spiral): Hi Babar, I read your new blog abut your actual adventure. Your story is pretty dangerous. I know, everybody can get in such a situation. But a thing what you have to know: With a correct spiral you can have more than 20m/s sink, with a full stall you can have not more than 10m/s sink. A full stall is not a manoever for going down fast. A full stall can be very dangerous. A stall should do only really good pilots. Also good pilots train their first full stalls above wather with a rescue system. In Austria flying schools we train spirals for such situations like you had. Its importat, that you try spirals first in quiet air. At the beginning verry smooth spirals and after you feel confidente in smooth spirals you can try fast spirals, but be also carefully with fast spirals, it can happen that you become senseless and you spiral senseless down to the ground!! so please try sipraling step by step harder. Another comfortable (but not so effectife) alternative is a B-Stall. Do you know what a B-Stall is? If you need an explanation for a B- Stall please tell me. Please take care! Christian Second E-Mail (B-stall and big ears) b-stall (about 8-10m/s) you have to pull the b-risers down until the glider don`t have forward speed (horizontal speed), during the b-stall the glider has only vertical down speed. keep the risers in that position. If you want to end the b-stall rise up the b-risers quickly into the normal position (its important that you do it quickly otherwise your glider will go into a sack-flight which can be dangerous). If you follow this advice the glider should change into the normal glide flight.

At older gliders it can happen that the glider don`t have forward speed although� you gave the b risers into the normal position quickly (that means sack-flight). If that happens,� you have to push the speed bar. After pushing the speed bar the glider should do a normal glide flight.

That videos will show how to do a B-stall: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytz-4tDDVLo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2htVbTw8eo&feature=related big ears (2-4m/s) At big ears you have to collaps the glider at his both "ears"

you have to pull down the outer A-line� at each side symmetric (that much you pull down that much more will collaps that much sink you will have).

If you push the speed bar during your glider has big ears you will have also more sink (push the speed bar after you pulled down the A lines) When you want to go back into the normal glide flight, than you have to go out of the speed bar first and than let go the A-lines. Than the collaps should open. If the glider do not open the wingtips pump a little bit (not too strong!!) on the breaks (symmetric) and the "ears" will open. The big ears are a method for example, you could have used at the beginning of your "adventure" you had. If you had done big ears with speed bar at the beginning may be that would have been enough to go down with no stress. Here a movie to the topic big ears: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FouMulGet60&feature=related If something is not clear for you because of my bad English or because you don`t understand some terms please ask me before you try my instructions! And for all manoeuvres I toled you, it`s important that you exercise it in quiet air and with enough hight. Please try spirals, B-stall and big ears only at flights from the zani pass, there you have enought hight to try it. You have to be more than 300m above the ground for trying that things. If something goes wrong, you have enough hight that the glider goes back into the normal flight. After you tried big ears several times successful, you can use the big ears also closer to the ground. I hope I helped you with my instructions. And one thing I want to tell you again, because its really really important: Don`t do full stalls! Full stalls are not a method for going down fast! That is a wrong information that full stalls are a standard manoeuvre for going down fast! Babar, you had luck, that nothing happened after you gave the breaks free after the full stall! With a B-Stall you have nearly the same sink and that manoeuvre is much more easier! Salaam Aleikum Christian ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

�� �

Am 03.11.2011 23:07, schrieb mukrim sisic:

��� I am glad that he managed to use it for good. He does not owe me much, only� bowl of

cherries, when I come next time. In a meanwhile they should all make extra effort to stay healthy and alive.

�� Thanks for the email and phone no.

--- On Thu, 11/3/11, sirajulmulk <siraj...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: sirajulmulk <siraj...@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Paraglide Pakistan 280] Re: Hunza summer 2011 - William Palmer To: paraglide...@googlegroups.com Received: Thursday, November 3, 2011, 6:07 AM

Dear Mukrim Baber says he owes you his life. He says when he was up there helpless he remembered some of the maneuvers you had talked about to him. That was the only armament he had against all odds. He had never practiced what you had mentioned but it was there in his mind. So he just went ahead with it and here he is to tell the tale. He is at zahirud...@gmail.com waiting to communicate with you. Regards Siraj Ulmulk Hindukush Heights Chitral . ph++92-943413151 cell 03449700800 fax413153 www.hindukush.com.pk From: mukrim sisic <krug...@yahoo.com> Sender: paraglide...@googlegroups.com Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 05:05:43 -0700 (PDT) To: <paraglide...@googlegroups.com> ReplyTo: paraglide...@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [Paraglide Pakistan 278] Re: Hunza summer 2011 - William Palmer

Hi Siraj, can you tell Baber to contact me trough email. I consider him as a friend.� I think he is very lucky that he survived.� Conditions that he described strike fear to any pilot. To be fair he is also talented flier and it is not unusual that he looks for a challenge. Only problem is that Hindukush and Hinduraj could easily be way to challenging even� for very well equipped top pilots.� In short they have to be very careful about conditions that they want to fly. By now they should be able to judge conditions. I have seen� one video on youtube where one local PG flier flew short flight in very strong and dangerous cond. , this was from small hill near Booni (above socker field). Baber in this reported flight pulled two "extreme" maneuvers; one is spiral, another if full stall. If one can not practice them one should have solid knowledge about theory behind them: in which situation you pull them, how to pull them, and how to properly� exit them.Glad to hear that he did not make big mess. �

Full stall is not recommended maneuver to lose the height in situation like that, rate of height loss is relatively small, maintenance of full stall for prolonged period is hard and could be messy, exit has to be timed properly only when wing is before you, or above you, otherwise there is danger of excessive forward surge that may send pilot into the wing, or lead to cascade of bad events,.....

�� Mukrim

> >> creature had made me it�s pray.

> >> > >> > >> My glider was not moving towards ahead. During this time, I was not > >> able to sit comfortably in my harness. I tried once to bring myself

> >> right in to harness, but it didn�t work. I left the idea, and tried to

> >>>> Le 27 oct. 2011 � 20:09, Brad Sander a �crit :

�

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[Siraj Ulmulk]

It is so good to see so many people like you taking such a keen interest in these young PG pilots of Chitral. It is not easy for these young men to have access to proper training and good PG equipment. They starated with very basic stuff and , with help from all of you, they have made considerable progress. The terrain in Chitral is very well suited for the sport of paragliging but to enjoy this sport to its fullest all PG pilots will have to respect the weather conditions which at times can get harsh as experienced by Baber, who was lucky, and others who were not so lucky.

Like the game of polo which continues to survive in our land so can it be for Paragliding which can be the next special sport in which local people of Chitral are engaged and enjoying. Consequently it rests on the shoulders of these handful of Chitrali pilots to take this sport forward in a safe and enjoyable mannner which will attract other young men to take up paragliding.

Understandable that a  paraglider, and associated equipment, is an expensive item (so is a horse) but , with your help, once the sport of PG in Chitral gains more status and recognizability we should be able to find worthy sponsors.

Until then THANK YOU for your help and your concern.

Siraj Ulmulk 

On Sat, Nov 5, 2011 at 10:41 AM, Christian Rank <christi...@gmx.at> wrote:

Hi together,

In my opinion its important, that thy know everything about paragliding.
It`s not possible any more, to stop the paragliding hype in Pakistan, and it will be a big fault to ignore that don`t give them live essential advices.
If we don`t do that, other, may be not so educated people will give them wrong advices, advices which can be dangerous.
That more they know, that safer they will fly and that more respect they will have about paragliding.
And they have to get advices from educated paragliding pilots like we are, or better from paragliding teachers.
I am not in Pakistan at the moment, so the only possibility for me is to give them instructions via e-mail.
I thougt, after I read the e-mail traffic after Babers "accident", he did the fatal wrong manoeuvre, and nobody toled him that!
You are right, If they have no gliders in good conditions they should not fly with that gliders and in no case they should not try my advices.
Baber has got a glider in really good conditions and Muzafar will have one soon.
I think its important, that they try Big ears, spirals...step by step with the right equipment.
I remember, there was one guy in Chitral who is a flying teacher in Islamabad.
Does somebody know, if he has the right skills to teach them the basics?

Today I searched in the internet about school books for paragliding which are written in English.
May be there is a member in that group who has a instruction book about paragliding in English language at home.
I think it would be an important support for Baber and his friends to scan such a book and send them the book via e-mail.
I know that is not much support from my side, but its not possible for me to do more at the moment.
If its possible for me to come to Pakistan for me next spring, I will spend time to teach them.

I am happy, that today I got the first response form Babar via Facebook.
Its good, that they think about our fees and they starting to ask questions about paragliding techniques.

Salaam Aleikum
Christian


Am 04.11.2011 18:04, schrieb mukrim sisic:

Hi Christian, before I went to Pakistan I come across your name it was among those that flew there before.I read about your adventures. I was also about to suggest to give some advices here on this group to our Friends in N. Pakistan, but I was not sure if this would be out of scope of this Paraglide Pakistan group, may be Brendan can give his opinion about this. Having this in mind and some other things  I wanted to contact Baber directly. I also wanted to point out few things about descending techniques, and give personal advice in general, since I know Baber and most of the PG in Chitral area.

But since you did it and made it public let me express my view on these concrete issues:

1.First of all I am not sure if it is good advice to tell them to really  practice these manuvers right now. To know the theory I am sure it is good, just in case it may save the life if something similar ever happens again.  It is better to know it than to stay ignorant, but to make step further and go ahead with practice without rescue sistems and real supervision, radio contact of instructor even from Zani Pass it is too much for them. Most of them don't even fly airworthy gliders, so there is issue if those gliders can withstand stress that irregular flying attitudes create.

2. Apart from lack of rescue parachute they don't even have speed bars installed, some of them do, but they don't use it or if they ever did I can guarantee you that they don't know what they are supposed to know to use it properly...

All this opens new can of worms: For instance you have to teach them that once they use Big Ears they have to be familiar with pushing the bar as well, at least 1/3 of it. You have to tell them that is absolute no to pull and release the ears near the ground, also you have to warn them that pulling the ears can cause the stall, especially if they hold the brakes while doing this.If they start to practice this without supervision I am sure they will pull brakes with outer A lines too, and of course this may cause them to stall the wing.  Also stall is more likely to occur if you pull ears both sides at once, hence it is better to pull them one at the time and release them one at the time. Also once you pull the ears speed bar has to be engaged to make glider less prone to stall.... For all of this new can of worms they have to contact us and ask questions, It has to be two way road of communication. Now since you gave Baber direct advice,  he (or they) will have enough food to chew, but they have to ask questions and engage themselves more, because all this knowledge is not like coin of money that one can simply pass to another, it is complex and alive, sometimes changing and expanding. Here I sit and hope he will contact me  with relevant questions, that I am keen to answer and add to their pool of knowledge.

--- On Fri, 11/4/11, Christian Rank <christi...@gmx.at> wrote:

From: Christian Rank <christi...@gmx.at> Subject: Re: [Paraglide Pakistan 282] Re: Hunza summer 2011 - William Palmer To: paraglide...@googlegroups.com Received: Friday, November 4, 2011, 5:59 AM

Hi together, yesterday I had e-mail contact with Baber. I gave him (in my opinion) important instructions about the methods "how to go down fast with a paraglider". One really important information in my opinion is, that a full stall is not a safe method to go down fast! To use a full stall to go down fast can be for a standard pilot pretty dangerous! I explained Baber and Muzafar three save manoeuvres for going down fast.

I thought that informations could be also interesting for other Pakistan pilots (If  I wrote something wrong because of my bad English or bad explanation, I want to request every pilot in that group to correct any wrong explanations!):

First E-Mail to Baber (explanation Spiral): Hi Babar, I read your new blog abut your actual adventure. Your story is pretty dangerous. I know, everybody can get in such a situation. But a thing what you have to know: With a correct spiral you can have more than 20m/s sink, with a full stall you can have not more than 10m/s sink. A full stall is not a manoever for going down fast. A full stall can be very dangerous. A stall should do only really good pilots. Also good pilots train their first full stalls above wather with a rescue system. In Austria flying schools we train spirals for such situations like you had. Its importat, that you try spirals first in quiet air. At the beginning verry smooth spirals and after you feel confidente in smooth spirals you can try fast spirals, but be also carefully with fast spirals, it can happen that you become senseless and you spiral senseless down to the ground!! so please try sipraling step by step harder. Another comfortable (but not so effectife) alternative is a B-Stall. Do you know what a B-Stall is? If you need an explanation for a B- Stall please tell me. Please take care! Christian Second E-Mail (B-stall and big ears) b-stall (about 8-10m/s) you have to pull the b-risers down until the glider don`t have forward speed (horizontal speed), during the b-stall the glider has only vertical down speed. keep the risers in that position. If you want to end the b-stall rise up the b-risers quickly into the normal position (its important that you do it quickly otherwise your glider will go into a sack-flight which can be dangerous). If you follow this advice the glider should change into the normal glide flight.

At older gliders it can happen that the glider don`t have forward speed although  you gave the b risers into the normal position quickly (that means sack-flight). If that happens,  you have to push the speed bar. After pushing the speed bar the glider should do a normal glide flight.

That videos will show how to do a B-stall: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytz-4tDDVLo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2htVbTw8eo&feature=related big ears (2-4m/s) At big ears you have to collaps the glider at his both "ears"

you have to pull down the outer A-line  at each side symmetric (that much you pull down that much more will collaps that much sink you will have).

If you push the speed bar during your glider has big ears you will have also more sink (push the speed bar after you pulled down the A lines) When you want to go back into the normal glide flight, than you have to go out of the speed bar first and than let go the A-lines. Than the collaps should open. If the glider do not open the wingtips pump a little bit (not too strong!!) on the breaks (symmetric) and the "ears" will open. The big ears are a method for example, you could have used at the beginning of your "adventure" you had. If you had done big ears with speed bar at the beginning may be that would have been enough to go down with no stress. Here a movie to the topic big ears: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FouMulGet60&feature=related If something is not clear for you because of my bad English or because you don`t understand some terms please ask me before you try my instructions! And for all manoeuvres I toled you, it`s important that you exercise it in quiet air and with enough hight. Please try spirals, B-stall and big ears only at flights from the zani pass, there you have enought hight to try it. You have to be more than 300m above the ground for trying that things. If something goes wrong, you have enough hight that the glider goes back into the normal flight. After you tried big ears several times successful, you can use the big ears also closer to the ground. I hope I helped you with my instructions. And one thing I want to tell you again, because its really really important: Don`t do full stalls! Full stalls are not a method for going down fast! That is a wrong information that full stalls are a standard manoeuvre for going down fast! Babar, you had luck, that nothing happened after you gave the breaks free after the full stall! With a B-Stall you have nearly the same sink and that manoeuvre is much more easier! Salaam Aleikum Christian ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Am 03.11.2011 23:07, schrieb mukrim sisic:

I am glad that he managed to use it for good. He does not owe me much, only  bowl of

cherries, when I come next time. In a meanwhile they should all make extra effort to stay healthy and alive.

Thanks for the email and phone no. --- On Thu, 11/3/11, sirajulmulk <siraj...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: sirajulmulk <siraj...@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Paraglide Pakistan 280] Re: Hunza summer 2011 - William Palmer To: paraglide...@googlegroups.com Received: Thursday, November 3, 2011, 6:07 AM

Dear Mukrim Baber says he owes you his life. He says when he was up there helpless he remembered some of the maneuvers you had talked about to him. That was the only armament he had against all odds. He had never practiced what you had mentioned but it was there in his mind. So he just went ahead with it and here he is to tell the tale. He is at zahirud...@gmail.com waiting to communicate with you. Regards Siraj Ulmulk Hindukush Heights Chitral . ph++92-943413151 cell 03449700800 fax413153 www.hindukush.com.pk From: mukrim sisic <krug...@yahoo.com> Sender: paraglide...@googlegroups.com Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 05:05:43 -0700 (PDT) To: <paraglide...@googlegroups.com> ReplyTo: paraglide...@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [Paraglide Pakistan 278] Re: Hunza summer 2011 - William Palmer

Hi Siraj, can you tell Baber to contact me trough email. I consider him as a friend.  I think he is very lucky that he survived.  Conditions that he described strike fear to any pilot. To be fair he is also talented flier and it is not unusual that he looks for a challenge. Only problem is that Hindukush and Hinduraj could easily be way to challenging even  for very well equipped top pilots.  In short they have to be very careful about conditions that they want to fly. By now they should be able to judge conditions. I have seen  one video on youtube where one local PG flier flew short flight in very strong and dangerous cond. , this was from small hill near Booni (above socker field). Baber in this reported flight pulled two "extreme" maneuvers; one is spiral, another if full stall. If one can not practice them one should have solid knowledge about theory behind them: in which situation you pull them, how to pull them, and how to properly  exit them.Glad to hear that he did not make big mess.

Full stall is not recommended maneuver to lose the height in situation like that, rate of height loss is relatively small, maintenance of full stall for prolonged period is hard and could be messy, exit has to be timed properly only when wing is before you, or above you, otherwise there is danger of excessive forward surge that may send pilot into the wing, or lead to cascade of bad events,.....

> >> creature had made me it’s pray.

> >> > >> > >> My glider was not moving towards ahead. During this time, I was not > >> able to sit comfortably in my harness. I tried once to bring myself

> >> right in to harness, but it didn’t work. I left the idea, and tried to

--
Hindukush Heights Chitral
Ph ++92-943-413151 and 413152
Fax ++ 92-943-413153
e-mail siraj...@gmail.com
web www.hindukush.com.pk

[Richard G]

Hi Mukrim,

I appreciate your response to helping understand the different
techniques for faster descent in a paraglider. I need to address what
I feel are some misconceptions about the Big Ears technique you may
have.

Firstly, as long as you do not apply the brakes while using big ears
you are typically no closer to stall than you are while flying
normally. Although you may have decreased your speed via added drag
from the ears, you have also increased your speed by flying a wing
that has a greater ratio of weight:surface area. These balance out
the stall worries, but to be sure the pilots should only steer via
weight shift.

Secondly, every instructor I have encountered has always recommended
that you pull both sides of the Big Ears simultaneously. Doing each
one separately may induce some yawing and rolling that may be
difficult to correct with weight shift alone. Pulling one side may
even slow it enough to stall that side before being able to apply the
other side to even out the forces! It must be better to pull both Big
Ears at the same time to have a symmetric affect on the wing's flying
performance.

Happy flight & upward regards!

Richard

[jabbar Bhatti]

Hi Brad,

 

Very many thanks for your comments and your contiuing support to promote paragliding in Pakistan. Pakistan is certainly different from what is portrayed outside its boundries. We strongly feel that we need assistance of all our friends to make the things change in the eyes of those who are having a negative picture of our skies. And off course we only need your visits and true stories. Visit us to help us, to help adventure paradise, to help adventure sports!!

 

Our assistance to all adventure lovers, in our capacity, is all open, every time. Please do not let us fail.....

 

Blue skires.

 

Jabbar Bhatti     

[Brad Sander]

Thanks Christian and Krug for taking time attempting to train Baber. I can speak for all foreign pilots in this group when I say we want to see local
Pakistani pilots develop their skills in a safe manner. We would like to see you live long and fly high! And the already high rate of accidents in the Chitral community and the recent experience of Baber is very discouraging and scary. 

To answer Christians question there are currently no pilots in Chitral or Booni who are safe to instruct new pilots. There are many pilots in Pakistan who profess to be instructors are completely unsafe in technique and mentality. In the future as foreign pilots travel through the area we will continue to give informal or formal instruction but on a limited time scale due to the nature of our travels. The little amount of training can be incredibly dangerous as experience shows. 

We can talk about descent techniques but the real issue has been touched on and that is judgement. How to teach judgement? And for that I am stumped. I wonder what Babar has learned as he looks back on this particular flight and the advice he has received since. 

Babar you are in contact with the pilots from PAFF and are trying to work with them that is good. But working with them does not me you just ask for free gliders but that you seek advice in how to progress and learn as a pilot.

As I have traveled I have heard many stories of pilots in countries with few pilots and how dangerous the learning and development process is. I hope the pilots in pakistan can learn from the accidents of others and not have to repeat them.. it is a totally unnecessary waste of life. Please respect your life and know the limits of your abilities as you progress. 

With hope for the future,

Brad

[mukrim sisic]

Hi Richard, I wish I can agree with you and leave it that way, since I was the one that practiced   Big Ears for so long  exactly way you proposed, than all over the sudden I decided to change course and stay away from B.E. as much as I can and if I do them I do them mostly the way I have described here. 1. B.E. creates higher angle of attack which slows wing down, increased drag slows down wing too. Higher loading tends to bring back paraglider to original speed, so you end up with wing that flies approximately same speed as in normal flight, but it is under higher angle of attack. So this increased A.O. makes you closer to the stall, just as higher loading, since higher loading increases stall speed. Since trim speed remains more or less the same and stall speed has gone up you are operating under smaller flyable speed range, ad to this increased angle of attack and your inability to control the pitch via brakes you may understand that if you are operating in significantly narrower safety range for stall.  In order to mitigate this you need to apply speed bar, since speed bar will increase flying speed and lover the angle of attack. 2. Second point is about how to pull and release B.E.  If I am high enough I might be lazy to exercise caution and pull one side and than another, so simply I can pull them at the same time just because I don't care if I get frontal or even stall. Also if I am about to land with BE I simply flare with both brakes very near the ground this is actually way to go for landing. However if I am not lazy or scared of collapse I will pull them one at the time and relese them just like that if I am not landing with B.E.. http://www.ojovolador.com/eng/read/tecnics/polemica_orejas/orejas_polemica_01.htm --- On Sat, 11/5/11, Richard G <gillespi...@gmail.com> wrote:

-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Paraglide Pakistan" group. To post to this group, send email to paraglide...@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to

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[muzafar hussain]

Hi Brad
Thanks for your comments, but one thing you have mentioned here is not
true in the context of chitral, which is the high rate of accidents of
Paragliders in chitral.
None of the Paragliders from Booni have ever suffered from any
accident, and we hope that it will never happen.
We have always been careful, while decision making. We read the
information available on the internet, and don’t taste what we don’t
know. We observe the launching point, hardles, and weather and wind
conditions before to fly. We discus the expected situation, and some
times it is not the same. We consider the lee side. When it is hundred
percent sure we make flights. Otherwise we return.
We bought gliders and started flying with them. Now we have almost
new gliders and the Korean Paragliders have promised to send us more.
One thing you make sure that you are worried about us. We would never
give you a chance, to make you feel guilty to barrow us the Ozone
glider. We could have come across with accident in the early days when
we were beginners. That time we were more careful about and never took
any risk at all. We still have this habit to protect ourselves.

Now we have learned about paragliding, and have done practice. We have
regular schedule .Accordingly we go for ground handling and flights.
We have achieved lessons from senior pilots who visited booni during
the last three yeart.We learned from senior pilots of pak army during
our visits to sawat. And we will be learning from different sources.
To promote paragliding in a safe way, we preferred to established
Terichmir Paragliding Club (TPC)and affiliated it with PAFF,so that we
could follow the principles of paragliding to do it properly. We want
paragliding promote in our area and wish to have piolets coming from
other parts of the world

Causes of Accidents in down chitral

Our friends in the lower chitral never considered it to be a sport
based on extensive information and risk involved in it. One can not
keep it on only practice rather should have enough knowledge about it.
• They use toren gliders including your Ozone DHV2.The wings have got
the normal shape of a rough cloth, but they use it without any
hesitation from the summer palace. Though some times they complain
about their usual side collapse.
• They prefer the crowd instead of the weather condition in various
such occasions.
• They still fly from summer palace with Ozone DHV2 of yours, and with
other old gliders.
• They go for flying without pre ground practice. Even they have
participated for a number of occasions in sawat and shandoor festivals
with the old gliders.
• They have bought two gliders, but their weight is 105 to 125.
Normally pilots having less than 60 kg weight fly with these heavy
weight gliders from summer palace . Some times they do tandems even
with these solo gliders
• Usually prefer to smoke hashish before flying.
• Now e days Internet has been a useful source of information and
knoldege,while in the southern chitral due to the strong hold of
islamist group, electronic media is considered an un-Islamic .
Therefore most of them suppose the use of internet obnoxious.

• They do ground handling in a unique way, i.e. the person who does
ground handling is tightening with a rope must be more than 30 meter.
He is hanging with glider in the air in a wind more than 35 km ph and
sometimes more than three persons pulling the rope in the land.Finaly
the rope cuts and the OZONE DHV 2 brings the paraglider safely to the
land. You can see it on youtube.com and many other funny flights, of
the senior pilots of lower chitral.


Thanks
Baber.