Conventional meat ain't so bad

[Toban Wiebe]

Don did some research and found that the hormones in conventional meat aren't to worry about: A Practically Primal Perspective on Conventional Beef, Part 1: Hormones

This is pretty important because lots of people can't afford the high-quality meats that paleos recommend. Paleo needs to be somewhat price competitive to really become popular. Better that paleo becomes popular with conventional meat than stays obscure and purist. So many people could benefit from cutting out grains, seed oil, and sugar. Conventional meat can help more people to become healthier by replacing unhealthy foods. It's cheaper (so you can buy/eat more for the same price) and more convenient (you don't need to find a farmer).

I think paleos should give a stronger defense of conventional meat, and not just retreat to a defense of grassfed. I'm looking forward to the other parts in Don's series.

[Marley Matthias]

Of course you need to worry...It's not the level of hormones that cause health issues...it's the type of hormones being pumped into these animals.  These animals receive scientific grade, laboratory chemicals when they are already born with the hormones they need.  If they need more hormones, it's because of the poor conditions they were born and raised in (factory farms)  which makes the quality low to begin with.  With "grass fed" animals...you don't have to worry about extra hormones, extra this and that...it's already there naturally.  Non chemical, natural meat will keep you healthy, NOT chemically injected conventional meat.  But thanks, I'll be sure to let everyone know about this false info

[Toban Wiebe]

Really?? Read Don's article before you shoot it down...

[Marley Matthias]

I did read it and all he talks about is the amount of the substances, not the quality.  I can eat oranges all day long and be fine...if I take laboratory synthetic vitamin C all day long, I guarantee I'll have serious health issues.  There is a difference in quality when it comes to natural food and food tampered with by corporations and scientists, continue your research brotha

[Don Matesz]

Marley,

On Jan 2, 2011, at 9:52 AM, Marley Matthias wrote:

Of course you need to worry...It's not the level of hormones that cause health issues...it's the type of hormones being pumped into these animals.  These animals receive scientific grade, laboratory chemicals when they are already born with the hormones they need.  If they need more hormones, it's because of the poor conditions they were born and raised in (factory farms)  which makes the quality low to begin with. 

It appears that you missed the fact that ranchers raise steers for beef.  Steers are born as intact bulls, and in that condition you're correct, "they are already born with the hormones they need."  However, in the U.S., people raising cattle for beef castrate the bulls to make them into steers...in which condition they don't have 'natural' hormone levels.  Supplementation is used to restore some of the growth potential lost by castration.

Regarding the claim you make against "scientific grade, laboratory chemicals" (is that suppose to be bad?)  I'll quote from my article info you can find for yourself with just a little effort on the internet:

"Currently the FDA allows the use of five hormones in cattle for meat production: progesterone, testosterone, estradiol-17β, zeranol, and trenbolone acetate.

"The first three are natural hormones, the same as produced by an intact animal.   Zeranol occurs naturally also,  produced by fungi.   It is a non-steroidal estrogen agonist, meaning it acts like estrogen and is accounted as an estrogen when scientists test for residues in meat. Trenbolone is an androgenic steroid that promotes muscle growth. It is accounted as an androgen when testing for residues."

I have been unable to find any evidence that any of these hormones have any adverse effects when used at physiological levels.

Non chemical, natural meat will keep you healthy, NOT chemically injected conventional meat.  But thanks, I'll be sure to let everyone know about this false info

Thanks for the assertion, but I want some evidence that "chemically injected conventional meat" can't support health.  Show me some evidence that the hormones used in these animals are substantially different in effects from the natural occurring hormones.  

The numerous studies done so far that substantiate beneficial effects of low carb or paleo-type diets all have employed conventional meats.  They have already shown that people can experience dramatic improvements in health eating conventional meats.   

And what false info?  All I did was show evidence that conventional beef does not carry harmful levels or quality of hormones.  You can do with that evidence what you wish.  

For many reasons, I myself prefer grass-fed beef to conventional.  But I won't let my preference prevent me from learning and conveying the facts about conventional meat.  

And like Toban, I think it is far preferable to eat a paleo-style diet based on conventional meat than to eat an "organic" high-carb diet.  I know it is because I myself ate an "organic" high carb diet for more than 12 years, and my health is much better now, after more than 15 years of eating a  paleo-principled diet that has included substantial amounts of conventional meats.

Cordially,

Don

[Marley Matthias]

You are correct in the fact that the testosterone used is naturally occurring...however, the types of testosterone injected are synthetic...synthetic supplements have been known for their side effects and are terrible on the human body.  Conventional "factory farm" cattle are also fed corn, which first of all is genetically modified...lab food is not real food, so yes it is bad.  Also, you said you watched Food Inc. so you should know that  cattle are supposed to eat grass which helps to form the omega 3 fats we all need, not (GMO) corn that causes infections in the gut.  As a result they are fed antibiotics which cause antibiotic resistance in human beings leaving us more open to pathogens.  Corn (especially GMO corn) is very bad for ANYONE because it wreaks havoc on the colon.  The reason why we have so many new complex diseases is because of the man made toxins we've been creating....sorry dude, it's ALL natural for me and my clients

[Karen DeCoster]

Don -
I am not sure why you are quoting what "the FDA allows" (irrelevant
point, since the FDA is an unofficial branch of Big Agra), but I
understand what you are saying, and I agree for this reason:
affordability and availability. I agree with Toban; realize that the
insistence on 'grass-fed only' marginalizes our cause, and puts "real
food" out of the reach of most Americans.

Surely these hormones are highly suspicious and should be regarded as
*not* the equivalent of meat that hasn't come from hormones. Further
research can determine to what extent they can be harmful, but because
of the synthetic character, they should immediately be regarded as
potentially detrimental (as opposed to completely avoiding the
synthetic magic). I think Don is saying that the effect from this meat
will be minimal - or perhaps no health affect at all - and that in
spite of potential downsides, it is far preferable to eat this meat
than choose the SAD or vegetarian suicide. Who can argue with that?

Marley - the first step in persuasion (in terms of educating others)
is to know your audience. Understand their needs, level of
attainability, and capability to process information that goes counter
to what they have always been told. A hardline "grass-fed only" mantra
is undermining the importance of the information you are trying to
convey. While grass-fed should be emphasized as far superior to
regular, everyday meat (yes, from grain-fed animals given hormones),
everyday meat is an _alternative_. In the same way, a Mercedes may be
far superior to a Pontiac Vibe (and last much longer; be more cost
efficient), but there are obvious reasons one needs alternatives to a
Mercedes.

For instance: I can afford grass-fed meat based on (1) my income level
(2) I accept high food bills and maintain cost-cutting elsewhere (no
new car in 20 years, etc.). But I am savvy because I completely
understand the importance of quality food. Even then, I still have to
balance my purchase of grass-fed with regular meat, because I have
been able to learn, over time, where my 'best balance' (between cost
and health) is maintained. It is a delicate balance, and for each
person, the point where that best balance occurs is different.

However, most people (a) are not yet at the point where they are
willing to ditch the new car and new toys to buy grass-fed meat (b)
cannot fit grass-fed products into their budget, no matter what they
do. You can't tell a head of household (of 4 or 5 people) living on
$40-60k (or less), or even a single person at $30k, that grass-fed is
a must. You've just lost those folks to financial reality. Someone who
is good at selling ideas always presents alternatives, conveying both
the positive and potential negatives of those alternatives, as vs the
superior option.


Karen A. De Coster, CPA
www.karendecoster.com
<http://www.karendecoster.com>
kdecos...@gmail.com
AIM: anarchogal
Yahoo: RothbardianCPA
Twitter: karendecoster

[Toban Wiebe]

Well said Karen. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

[Don Matesz]

Karen, I referred to the FDA because they regulate the use of hormones in livestock and set standards for residues.  Look, of course I know that the FDA is part of 'big Agra" but how many people realize that ALL beef cattle raised in the U.S. start on the range, raised mostly by small ranchers, who then sell them to feedlots for finishing. The system is not just all evil big Agra in operation.  

I consider it an error to call testosterone, estrodiol, and progesterone "synthetic."  Drug companies isolate these hormones from natural sources.  As noted by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estrogen#Biosynthesis:  "The “first orally effective estrogen”, Emmenin, derived from the late-pregnancy urine of Canadian women, was introduced in 1930 by Collip and Ayerst Laboratories."

Today, the popular Premarin estrogen supplement given to women comes from PREgnant MARes urINe.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premarin

Now you know that if these were easily synthesized in the laboratory the pharm industry would do it, not collect pregnant mare's urine, because it would be so much cheaper to make in a lab instead of on a farm.  I think people confuse these with synthetic estrogenic compounds like DES, which are NOT used in cattle....  

Further, many stores offer meats from animals fed grains but not hormones nor antibiotics.  I get most of my grain-fed meats from two markets (Sprouts and Sunflower) that supply only meats of this type.  Often their price is lower than in conventional stores where the meat comes from grain fed and hormone-treated animals.  

Marley, if you had read my book or several other posts on my blog, you would know that I consider grass fed superior to grain fed. But to paraphrase Toban, I don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.  If you deal exclusively with people who can afford to purchase all their meat from grass-fed animals, good for you.  Not me.  I deal with a lot of people who don't have the money or time to go out of their way for grass-fed meat.  

I don't recall the Eades or Cordain ever writing or implying that one must purchase grass-fed meat to eat a paleoesque diet.  Doing so would make their recommendations unattainable for the vast majority of people.  Yes, grass-fed may be "best" but eating a diet based on conventional meat is a lot better than eating a diet based on grains etc..

[Marley Matthias]

So basically you are saying it's ok to eat meat that's been fed genetically modified corn, which has been known to cause organ failure....grain, which I've already said is harmful to the intestines of any animal whether livestock, poultry or human...you are telling me that it's ok to eat these food that are VERY harmful to people just b/c it is a cheaper alternative...you are out of your mind dude.  I am one of those people you speak of that make $30K or less, that should not be able to afford organic, all natural food...guess what, it is affordable.  Being a hunter/ gatherer, taking pride in food selection and budgeting money are things that I teach my clients to help them succeed in making correct decisions in their lifestyle change.  You don't just lay down and except things that will hurt you when you can fight and change things for the better in your life, and that is what I help people do.  You don't need to make tons of money to live healthy...most people are ignorant to the avenues available b/c of media and guys like you saying that it is impossible...you should be ashamed of yourself for trying to sell mediocrity to me.  If we are to change the way we eat and live, we need to change the way we think first.  If you haven't already, you need to read up on Ori Hofmekler, check out Sean Croxton Underground wellness and stop telling people to put their vote in conventional meat that will keep them unhealhty...

[Toban Wiebe]

I see your point, but for paleo to go mainstream, it has to be easy—if it requires extra effort or sacrifice, then a large segment of people won't even bother. Paleo-mediocrity is very close to perfection compared to the SAD.

I disagree that conventional meat is very harmful. I'm more inclined to thinking that the risks of conventional meat is mostly just alarmism and pessimism, something which humans are very much prone to.

[Don Matesz]

Marley,

Thanks for the diagnosis ("out of your mind").  Wait..that might be a good thing....to be out of my mind.

I guess you are right, I'll have to start teaching all my patients to hunt and gather.  You must be right, everyone earning no more than $30K per year has the same expenses. I am sure those single moms earning $30K per year, going to school, and raising 2 children will find time and money for grass fed meat.  I'll just have to find time to teach them how to rearrange their budgets so they can get only the best.  Maybe they can start raising cattle in their apartments.

I finally get your point:  teaching people to eat meat, vegetables, fruits, and nuts instead of refined carbohydrates is teaching them to lay down and accept things that will hurt them unless I insist that they only eat grass fed meat.  

I have had people adopt paleo principles and get off diabetes meds, lose weight, and feel more energetic than ever while eating conventional meat, but now I see that by eating conventional meat they were remaining unhealthy.

 I guess "should" be ashamed of myself,  selling mediocrity to you.  I guess it really is all black and white, no step by step changes necessary for anyone, just 100% purity from the get go.   How I missed that, I don't know.  Maybe because I was out of my mind.  

Don

[Richard Nikoley]

Laf.

Don, I think you wasted your time. For some, paleoish is a religion and it's just going to be that way going forward. It's not enough to have a good life here on Earth; there's Heaven & Hell to consider.

Laf Laf Laf.

Well, I enjoyed all of it. Hopefully, you put it to rest.

Richard Nikoley

rnik...@gmail.com

[Karen DeCoster]

"Further, many stores offer meats from animals fed grains but not

hormones nor antibiotics." This makes up a good portion of what I eat
- because 100% grass-fed is not very doable, even for someone as
dedicated as me who has access to the Amish, local famers, and one of
the largest Farmer's Markets in the country.

Toban is right about the constant alarmism and pessimism, and Richard
is oh-so-bloody-right about the "religious" aspect. I see the same
thinking in libertarians whom I call Libertarianoids. How about
Paleoids? (A play off of "Randroid.") Internalizing paleo-extremism is
perfectly fine for your own life, but to push your unyielding, pseudo-
religious decrees on others is just plain insane and asinine. No one
is capable of 'helping' anyone else - in anything - without putting
forth a level of empathy, and understanding their strengths,
weaknesses, capabilities, level of commitment, etc.

On Jan 4, 11:55 pm, Richard Nikoley <rniko...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Laf.
>
> Don, I think you wasted your time. For some, paleoish is a religion and it's just going to be that way going forward. It's not enough to have a good life here on Earth; there's Heaven & Hell to consider.
>
> Laf Laf Laf.
>
> Well, I enjoyed all of it. Hopefully, you put it to rest.
>
> Richard Nikoley

> rniko...@gmail.com

>
> On Jan 4, 2011, at 7:57 PM, Don Matesz wrote:
>
>
>
> > Marley,
>
> > Thanks for the diagnosis ("out of your mind").  Wait..that might be a good thing....to be out of my mind.
>
> > I guess you are right, I'll have to start teaching all my patients to hunt and gather.  You must be right, everyone earning no more than $30K per year has the same expenses. I am sure those single moms earning $30K per year, going to school, and raising 2 children will find time and money for grass fed meat.  I'll just have to find time to teach them how to rearrange their budgets so they can get only the best.  Maybe they can start raising cattle in their apartments.
>
> > I finally get your point:  teaching people to eat meat, vegetables, fruits, and nuts instead of refined carbohydrates is teaching them to lay down and accept things that will hurt them unless I insist that they only eat grass fed meat.  
>
> > I have had people adopt paleo principles and get off diabetes meds, lose weight, and feel more energetic than ever while eating conventional meat, but now I see that by eating conventional meat they were remaining unhealthy.
>
> >  I guess "should" be ashamed of myself,  selling mediocrity to you.  I guess it really is all black and white, no step by step changes necessary for anyone, just 100% purity from the get go.   How I missed that, I don't know.  Maybe because I was out of my mind.  
>
> > Don
>
> > On Jan 4, 2011, at 9:36 AM, Marley Matthias wrote:
>
> >> So basically you are saying it's ok to eat meat that's been fed genetically modified corn, which has been known to cause organ failure....grain, which I've already said is harmful to the intestines of any animal whether livestock, poultry or human...you are telling me that it's ok to eat these food that are VERY harmful to people just b/c it is a cheaper alternative...you are out of your mind dude.  I am one of those people you speak of that make $30K or less, that should not be able to afford organic, all natural food...guess what, it is affordable.  Being a hunter/ gatherer, taking pride in food selection and budgeting money are things that I teach my clients to help them succeed in making correct decisions in their lifestyle change.  You don't just lay down and except things that will hurt you when you can fight and change things for the better in your life, and that is what I help people do.  You don't need to make tons of money to live healthy...most people are ignorant to the avenues available b/c of media and guys like you saying that it is impossible...you should be ashamed of yourself for trying to sell mediocrity to me.  If we are to change the way we eat and live, we need to change the way we think first.  If you haven't already, you need to read up on Ori Hofmekler, check out Sean Croxton Underground wellness and stop telling people to put their vote in conventional meat that will keep them unhealhty...
>

> >> On Mon, Jan 3, 2011 at 2:04 PM, Don Matesz <donmat...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >> Karen, I referred to the FDA because they regulate the use of hormones in livestock and set standards for residues.  Look, of course I know that the FDA is part of 'big Agra" but how many people realize that ALL beef cattle raised in the U.S. start on the range, raised mostly by small ranchers, who then sell them to feedlots for finishing. The system is not just all evil big Agra in operation.  
>

> >> I consider it an error to call testosterone, estrodiol, and progesterone "synthetic."  Drug companies isolate these hormones from natural sources.  As noted byhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estrogen#Biosynthesis: "The “first orally effective estrogen”, Emmenin, derived from the late-pregnancy urine of Canadian women, was introduced in 1930 by Collip and Ayerst Laboratories."

>
> >> Today, the popular Premarin estrogen supplement given to women comes from PREgnant MARes urINe.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premarin
>
> >> Now you know that if these were easily synthesized in the laboratory the pharm industry would do it, not collect pregnant mare's urine, because it would be so much cheaper to make in a lab instead of on a farm.  I think people confuse these with synthetic estrogenic compounds like DES, which are NOT used in cattle....  
>
> >> Further, many stores offer meats from animals fed grains but not hormones nor antibiotics.  I get most of my grain-fed meats from two markets (Sprouts and Sunflower) that supply only meats of this type.  Often their price is lower than in conventional stores where the meat comes from grain fed and hormone-treated animals.  
>
> >> Marley, if you had read my book or several other posts on my blog, you would know that I consider grass fed superior to grain fed. But to paraphrase Toban, I don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.  If you deal exclusively with people who can afford to purchase all their meat from grass-fed animals, good for you.  Not me.  I deal with a lot of people who don't have the money or time to go out of their way for grass-fed meat.  
>
> >> I don't recall the Eades or Cordain ever writing or implying that one must purchase grass-fed meat to eat a paleoesque diet.  Doing so would make their recommendations unattainable for the vast majority of people.  Yes, grass-fed may be "best" but eating a diet based on conventional meat is a lot better than eating a diet based on grains etc..
>
> >> On Jan 3, 2011, at 8:57 AM, Toban Wiebe wrote:
>
> >>> Well said Karen. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
>

> >>> Twitter: karendecoster- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Marley Matthias]

That's right...when it comes to health, there is no gray area...no room for error, b/c what we deal with every single day from the air that we breathe to the way that we think can and is highly toxic.  Your sarcasm shows how unable and unwilling you are to take you and your patience health to the highest level.  There are plenty of farmers markets around, plenty of farms you can buy affordable grass-fed meat from, plenty of able people who are willing to grow their own food, plenty of people like MYSELF who do make $30K and under who have have children and a business to run, bills and taxes to pay, that are willing to educate themselves or receive the education to live a completely natural lifestyle, which was intended for human life...but you'd rather tell people it's ok to eat the meat that's been processed over and over again  with, yes harmful chemicals, radiation and bioengineering that is helping to keep people sick.  You have your methods and I have mine....my methods are not be religious with the way you eat, but to RESPECT your body and the NATURAL foods it needs to perform optimally for the rest of the time you are here on earth.  It's not hard even for the poorest man to live this way...there are many of us doing it already.

[Marley Matthias]

Sickness and disease are all unyielding...so shall I must be