PAL-2 is available!

[Hans Otten]

The PAL-2 just went on sale at:

https://www.tindie.com/products/kim1/pal-2-a-mos-6502-powered-computer-kit/

[John Kennedy]

Cool! Does this kit use actual period chips?!

[GN Liu]

YES, the old fragile main chips~

[Hans Otten]

My first look into the PAL-2 is here:

PAL-2 – Retro Computing

[John Kennedy]

Is the KIM-1 monitor stored in an EPROM or in the RIOTs?

[Neil Andretti]

in an eeprom. the original 6530 is impossible to get.

you would have to destroy an original working kim for a clone kim... makes no sense.

[John Kennedy]

I am relieved!

[Micah Cowan]

Congratulations!

I have a few questions about the new kit:

1. It's a little hard for me to tell from the tindie page, how exactly the PAL-2 differs from the PAL-1, a lot of the description seems to be exactly the same as the page for the PAL-1. Is it primarily the USB-C support, and the sexy new keypad? How else does the PAL-2 differ from the PAL-1?
2. Is the existing PAL-1 cassette interface module directly compatible with the PAL-2? Is this what's referred to by "except the audio part" in the PAL-2 description? I wasn't aware of the KIM-1 _having_ an "audio part", but maybe this refers to a cassette modulizer/demodulizer?
3. Why the big price leap - the PAL-2 seems to cost about 3x what the PAL-1 did - is this just the addition of the USB-C support and the nice keypad, or is there more behind the price than those?
4. Is it planned that more PAL-1 kits will still be produced, or is production of this new PAL-2 going to wholly replace the PAL-1? Currently the PAL-1 is still listed in the store, but of course "out of stock". I'm signed up to be notified when more become available... but will that in fact be "never" and I should set my sights on the PAL-2 now, even if I should decide I don't need the new features at the new price tag?

Thanks very much for your attention, and also thank you for your dedication and work in creating this lovely clone system!

P.S., due to my ignorance in terminology, it was not immediately clear to me that the inclusion of a "USB-C-to-TTL converter" in "What's Included" implies that you can do serial data directly over the USB-C cable, though "You need a USB-C data cable compatible with your current computer" was a clue, and the manual PDF makes it clear. This is clearly due to my personal ignorance, but I'd imagined "USB-C-to-TTL" might just refer to load/voltage adjustments (even though I think USB-C should already be correct for that?); still, you might want to consider adding more to the store description, to clearly highlight this as a major difference from the PAL-1, that an RS232C-to-USB cable is no longer needed to communicate with your computer, all you need is the USB-C cable (and included converter).

-mjc

[Hans Otten]

1. It's a little hard for me to tell from the tindie page, how exactly the PAL-2 differs from the PAL-1, a lot of the description seems to be exactly the same as the page for the PAL-1. Is it primarily the USB-C support, and the sexy new keypad? How else does the PAL-2 differ from the PAL-1?

Much larger RAM,  two 6532s, easier TTY interface, TTL to USB interface,  KIM-1 compatible application and expansion connectorand much more configuration options.
The need for PAL-1 extensions Motherboard, 32K RAM , second RIOT is gone because that is now included on the PAL-2. That adds up a lot in the price of a full blown PAL-1.

Is the existing PAL-1 cassette interface module directly compatible with the PAL-2? Is this what's referred to by "except the audio part" in the PAL-2 description? I wasn't aware of the KIM-1 _having_ an "audio part", but maybe this refers to a cassette modulizer/demodulizer?

No, audio is not possible on the PAL-2. 

Why the big price leap - the PAL-2 seems to cost about 3x what the PAL-1 did - is this just the addition of the USB-C support and the nice keypad, or is there more behind the price than those?

See above, you get a PAL-1 + Motherboard + 2x32K RAM + Second RRIOT (about $170) in a more compact and flexible system.  

[David Carlin]

I'll be honest, I'm also confused about the lack of audio, what the practical ramifications of that are.  Did the PAL-1 have audio?  Does that mean you can't load/save to cassette on the PAL-2, even with some expansion board that doesn't exist yet? 

Sounds like the PAL-1 cassette expansion cannot be made to work by using a bunch of dupont wires to the application connector on the PAL-2?

David

On Wed, Jan 15, 2025 at 1:05 PM Hans Otten <h.o...@hansotten.com> wrote:

1. ]Is the existing PAL-1 cassette interface module directly compatible with the PAL-2? Is this what's referred to by "except the audio part" in the PAL-2 description? I wasn't aware of the KIM-1 _having_ an "audio part", but maybe this refers to a cassette modulizer/demodulizer?

[Hendrik-Jan Megens]

I would assume that the PAL-1 cassette interface works with the PAL-2, but maybe I'm overlooking some details in the architectural differences between the PALs? Or a PAL-2 specific cassette interface may be incoming?

Regarding price, I agree with Hans this kit is very reasonably priced. Other options for KIM-1 replica's available over the years were steeper in price and required interface boards like Corsham's to make them usable. The larger PCB and nicer keyboard alone would justify a price hike. And the vintage chips will become increasingly harder to come by. And I really like the concept of flexible memory layouts as provided by the dipswitches. Also, nice to see the USB-to-TTL converter included. Not only does that make it easier for users to get started but will also hopefully prevent some of the issues that users ran into with the PAL-1 due to issues with serial converters. 

Anyway, Liu congrats on another great kit! Looks stellar! And I noted that mine is already on it's way, that was fast! Thanks! Looking forward to receiving it!

cheers,

Hendrik-Jan

Op woensdag 15 januari 2025 om 19:16:42 UTC+1 schreef david....@gmail.com:

[Micah Cowan]

(Mine:) Is the existing PAL-1 cassette interface module directly compatible with the PAL-2? Is this what's referred to by "except the audio part" in the PAL-2 description? I wasn't aware of the KIM-1 _having_ an "audio part", but maybe this refers to a cassette modulizer/demodulizer?

(yours:) No, audio is not possible on the PAL-2. 

Right, audio is "not possible" on the PAL-2. But again, AFAICT, it wasn't possible on the KIM-1, either, so I'm really struggling to understand why this is an important point.

Are we calling the cassette stuff "audio", here? Certainly, the KIM-1 User Manual refers (rather annoyingly, IMO) to "using the audio tape unit" in a chapter title (annoyingly, because taking what we're using that tape unit for and calling it "audio", stretches the notion of charitable definitions, IMO). Is that what you mean? Cassette interface isn't possible? And if that's what's meant, then why is it particularly useful that we got the second RIOT chip (apart from the little bit of extra RAM and I/O pins) - wasn't the ROM on that 2nd chip chiefly dedicated to monitor extensions to drive the cassette interface? The assembly listings in the KIM-1 User Manual describe the 6230-003 so.

If, on the other hand, by audio we actually mean "audio", as in sound content generated by the KIM-1, for the purpose of listening... did the KIM-1 have that? I didn't believe so. Otherwise I'm not sure why the example application in the KIM-1 User Manual appears to be a demonstration of how to drive square-wave audio on an I/O pin from the CPU - if it had audio circuitry, we wouldn't need to go to that trouble, right? And if that's what's meant, then I don't understand why that wouldn't be just as possible on a PAL-2, since it seems to have the very same I/O interface pins?

Again, pardon my ignorance. Your assistance in correcting it is appreciated. :)

-mjc

[Hans Otten]

yea, with 'audio' is meant the audio cassette interface hardware of the KIM-1 to read and write files on audio cassette tape.

Compare the schematics of KIM-1 and PAL-2 and the signals (not) available at the application connector. 

[GN Liu]

1. It's a little hard for me to tell from the tindie page, how exactly the PAL-2 differs from the PAL-1, a lot of the description seems to be exactly the same as the page for the PAL-1. Is it primarily the USB-C support, and the sexy new keypad? How else does the PAL-2 differ from the PAL-1?
   

1. Liu: The PAL-2 is more KIM-1 liked system, you can see more detailed comparison on Hans' page http://retro.hansotten.nl/6502-sbc/kim-1-manuals-and-software/my-kim-1-family/kim-replicas-and-clones/pal-2/ .
   
   

1. Is the existing PAL-1 cassette interface module directly compatible with the PAL-2? Is this what's referred to by "except the audio part" in the PAL-2 description? I wasn't aware of the KIM-1 _having_ an "audio part", but maybe this refers to a cassette modulizer/demodulizer?
   

1. Liu: Yes, the audio I mean is the cassette part, I intend for the PAL-2 to not support the cassette part by default. However, with a jumper wire on PAL-2 and a customized expansion board, I think you can still use the cassette board from the PAL-1. I'll try to make the PAL-1 adapter board after the incoming spring festival.
   
   

1. Why the big price leap - the PAL-2 seems to cost about 3x what the PAL-1 did - is this just the addition of the USB-C support and the nice keypad, or is there more behind the price than those?
   

1. Liu: The price is a higher than the PAL-1 because the PAL-2 is loaded more chips, and the PCB is larger. In addition to these visible differences, the PAL-2 uses more high quality Taiwan-made FR4 PCB material compared to the already excellent PAL-1. It features lead-free solder coating, high-definition silkscreen printing, and components from top international brands (with the exception of keycaps, keycap legends, keyboard cover screws, SST switch, crystal oscillator, and expansion connectors, which are sourced locally). The kit packaging is also more refined and innovative than that of the PAL-1, all of which has added to the overall cost.

   Furthermore, during the preparation of the PAL-2, old chips have become increasingly difficult to source, some prices doubled, such as the 6532. Meanwhile, their failure rates are higher than before; for example, the 6532 now has a failure rate exceeding 20%. After the Lunar New Year, I will continue stocking the PAL-1 series, but the price of the PAL-1 will increase from $80 to $90 because of this.

1. Is it planned that more PAL-1 kits will still be produced, or is production of this new PAL-2 going to wholly replace the PAL-1? Currently the PAL-1 is still listed in the store, but of course "out of stock". I'm signed up to be notified when more become available... but will that in fact be "never" and I should set my sights on the PAL-2 now, even if I should decide I don't need the new features at the new price tag?
   

1. Liu: Yes, it will available in March in my plan. Thank you!

[GN Liu]

cont.:

the USB-C-to-TTL converter is this: https://cdn.tindiemedia.com/images/resize/HfFPXk5JGOXnRA9Jv5URwiFBk_c=/p/full-fit-in/2400x1600/i/201022/products/2025-01-14T09%3A15%3A20.455Z-IMG_0929.jpg

sorry for my English .... "USB-C data cable compatible with your current computer" means if your computer has an available USB-A port, you need a cable that one side is a USB-A connector and another side is a USB-C connector, or if your computer has an available USB-C port, you need a cable that both sides are USB-C connector.

[GN Liu]

Thanks Hans, Thanks HJM!!!!

[Hans Otten]

I have added a paragraph to my PAL-2 first look about the Audio cassette support for file I/O on audio tape.

With one patch wire on the PAL-2  (between PB7 /pin 11 of U12D)  and a free application connector pin) and the PAL-2 Cassette board you can have the same audio tape file I/O as the KIM-1.

Details here: PAL-2 – Retro Computing

[Micah Cowan]

Thanks to both GN Liu and Hans Otten for your patient and detailed replies! I've placed my order for the PAL-2 and await it with great anticipation.

I recently got to play with a PAL-1 at a local vintage computing enthusiasts' club, and kind of fell head-over-heels in love with it. You can't imagine my disappointment to find that I couldn't currently obtain it at tindie, nor anywhere else I could find (e.g. ebay). Other available KIM-1 kits of course include the KIM-Uno and the MicroKIM, but real era-appropriate chips appeal to me much more than "playing pretend" with an Arduino, and a faithful KIM-1 reproduction board means I have to add adaptation in order to use 6532's instead of 6530's, and more hassle involved in interfacing with modern hardware via serial (though, personally, I'm much more fascinated by the 7-segment + keypad interface).

The KIM-1 feels to me like it sits neatly in progression between an Altair 8800, and something like the Apple I, with maybe a hint of "Raspberry PI" due to the ease of expansion via the exposed pins.

I'm very much more a "software" guy than a "hardware" guy, and this will be my first serious soldering project, so I'm mildly nervous about that. Which probably means I'll do as much testing along the way as I can, to ensure I'm doing it right, heh!

-mjc

[Jim McClanahan]

Liu and Hans,

I've had a quick look at the schematic and read through the manual.

On the PAL-1 EPROM, the addressing kind of fit naturally between the top of the RAM card and the "mirrored" on-board RAM / ROM / I/O (putting it at $A000 thru $DFFF). With the additional memory on the PAL-2 and more flexible memory settings, would it make sense to look at building a ROM can be put at $C000 thru $FFFF? The proper reset and interrupt vectors could be put at the top of the EPROM pointing down to the first 8K of memory.

That would give BASIC 40K of memory (for itself and programs) instead of the current 32K. I'm not sure that would really matter that much in the overall scheme of things.

I'm not sure when I'll have time to dig in deeper (if it's worth looking at).

I have been playing the guitar more lately and have thought about trying to rig together to tinker with using the RIOT to generate some music. I believe at one point someone actually produced and released some music using the KIM-1.

Thanks,

Jim W4JBM

"With a soldering iron in one hand, a schematic in the other, and puzzled look on his face..."

https://github.com/w4jbm

[Hans Otten]

Hal Chamberlin (of MTU fame and later Kurzweil) ) was the one who did the music on the KIM-1. Articles in Byte:  MTU history: Hal Chamberlin – Retro Computing

And yes, it should be possible now to have ROM at E000-FFFF

[GN Liu]

Jim,

Definitely worth exploring! As an upgraded version of your ROM, I think it would be great to create a bank-switchable expansion board with a slightly larger EEPROM if possible. This way, we could use the PAL-2 as conveniently as the Famicom/NES, rather than waiting for programs to load from papertape (though I still enjoy the era-specific charm of loading small to medium programs in papertape format).

In the future, there could also be ROMs not based on the KIM-1 monitor, which would make things even more interesting!

Liu

[Matt Balmer]

%< snip >%

It's a little hard for me to tell from the tindie page, how exactly the PAL-2 differs from the PAL-1, a lot of the description seems to be exactly the same as the page for the PAL-1. Is it primarily the USB-C support, and the sexy new keypad? How else does the PAL-2 differ from the PAL-1?

Much larger RAM,  two 6532s, easier TTY interface, TTL to USB interface,  KIM-1 compatible application and expansion connectorand much more configuration options.
The need for PAL-1 extensions Motherboard, 32K RAM , second RIOT is gone because that is now included on the PAL-2. That adds up a lot in the price of a full blown PAL-1.

%< snip >%

So, if we already own a PAL-1 with all of the extension boards, how different is it? 

[GN Liu]

Besides the one-piece system versus the four-piece system, I think the PAL-2 is a more advanced, polished, and refined kit.

[Hans Otten]

Of course if you have a PAL-1 with all extensions, you do not gain much with the PAL-2. Both are full KIM-1 clones and run all available KIM-1 software.

The flexibility of the PAL-2 memory layout is a huge improvement. And it looks good!

I tried to sum up it at my first look at the PAL-2 – Retro Computing page.

[Hans Otten]

Liu is on vacation (Chinese New Year), so orders are not possible until he returns.

(I just saw my PAL-2 kit has arrived in Amsterdam! Now the Dutch customs and Dutch Postnl may do their job - slowly but surely as usual)

Hans

[Nils Andreas]

Wohoooo.  Mine too. 

Shipment loaded at 【Cross border service point in Frankfurt, Germany】, prepare to send to next station

Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 23.01.2025 um 16:20 schrieb Hans Otten <h.o...@hansotten.com>:



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[John Kennedy]

My kit has reached Los Angeles (which is good)!

[Hendrik-Jan Megens]

And mine presently sits right next to Hans' PAL-2 on the same shelf in Amsterdam!

PALs in the wild SOON!

Op donderdag 23 januari 2025 om 18:04:59 UTC+1 schreef johntk...@gmail.com:

[Marco Rey y Sander]

Haha, Gateway 01Z 😉

[Adolfo Fernandez]

I can feel the excitement!

[Jim McClanahan]

Guess what arrived today... :-)

 

--

[John Kennedy]

You win!!

[John Kennedy]

No, I will not.

[Nils Andreas]

I can feel you

Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 27.01.2025 um 16:47 schrieb John Kennedy <johntk...@gmail.com>:



No, I will not.

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[Raaalf]

Hello,

my PAL-2 arrived in Frankfurt. DHL should deliver the package soon. ;-)

Greetings Ralf

[Ronny Ribeiro]

My dear Lord! It's Christmas morning delayed! 😂

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[GN Liu]

Tonight is 除夕夜, just like Christmas Eve. 

Hope all packages arrive quickly and safely.

&

Happy 乙巳年 to all~

[Hans Otten]

My PAL-2 kit has arrived! Time to build!

[Jeremy Starcher]

My kit arrived too but I've been too busy to assemble it...

Bee driving me nuts!

[GN Liu]

Hans,

I put the three screws for the keypad cover in a very small plastic bag and placed it together with the keyboard cover. They didn’t go missing, did they?

[Hans Otten]

Yes, I found them! small bag, small screws! They do your job fine.

[Jeremy Starcher]

Another successful build! 

Would have had it done sooner but I got lost down the path of 'The address and data bus are rubbish, did I blow something up?'

Swap CPU and RIOTs with the PAL-1.

Nope, PAL-1 still works.


Mmmm.. pull out EEPROM -- everything looks good.

Hunt/hunt/look/hunt.

Did you know that a 7400 and a 7406 can look a LOT alike?

(I didn't want to risk giving the system reverse voltage -- again -- so the USB->UART adapter got double-sided sticky-taped in place until I get a nicer solution that is ~idiot~ Jeremy proof.)

[Jimmy Ipock]

Added a switch to switch between serial and keyboard. 

Added an rgb led to show the mode and also linked one color to data line 0 for blinking purposes. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 18, 2025, at 9:27 PM, Jeremy Starcher <jeremy....@gmail.com> wrote:

Another successful build! 

Would have had it done sooner but I got lost down the path of 'The address and data bus are rubbish, did I blow something up?'

Swap CPU and RIOTs with the PAL-1.

Nope, PAL-1 still works.


Mmmm.. pull out EEPROM -- everything looks good.

Hunt/hunt/look/hunt.

Did you know that a 7400 and a 7406 can look a LOT alike?

(I didn't want to risk giving the system reverse voltage -- again -- so the USB->UART adapter got double-sided sticky-taped in place until I get a nicer solution that is ~idiot~ Jeremy proof.)

<20250218_211709.jpg>

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pal6502/dd026438-a4d5-4648-968c-fc8d9c3b2384n%40googlegroups.com.

<20250218_211709.jpg>

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