Advanced Marathoning

[Mrx Wylie]

Ijust wanted to see if anyone has used the schedules that pfitzinger gives in his book, I was thinking of trying his 24 week 70+ mpw schedule to train for a fall marathon. Anyone have success or hate his book? This will be my first attempt at the marathon, but not my first time at this mileage. Juts wanted to check if anyone liked where he put his workouts and things. Thanks

It is probably the best book on Marathoning around. Just make sure that you actually read all of it, including Chapter 2, so you understand why you are doing what you are doing. It is a solid framework for training.

I followed it fairly religiously - did probably 90 to 95% of the workouts called for in the program I followed. Led to an 8 minute marathon PR, but in all honesty I was a better runner when training for that marathon than when training for ones a year or two previously.

Part of the program is also recognizing that nearly nobody ever is able to do every single workout, so yeah, you gotta niggling thing for a couple days here, a trip out of town there, life happens over 18 weeks ! The book is almost a lifestyle.

Those programs are all laid out for you, from the most basic "finish the race" level @ 50 mpw right thru much greater mileage. Go much beyond this book's scope, and you would probably be wise to actually hire a real coach.

Also, yeah, the mid-week "pretty long run" can be daunting. Sure you can run 15 miles on Wednesday, you just 20 miles on Sunday. (that stuff brings the freaks right out of my head - can I really finish this run ? The entire program pushes me right to my limits. I love that.) Sorry about that - was I thinking out loud again ? I gotta get out the door to do my Pfitz run.

I think his books are excellent. I like Road Racing for Serious Runners a little better than the one for marathoning. He really doesn't go into the depth that Daniels goes into, not as verbose as others, but covers what needs to be covered in a straight forward fashion. Easy read at a perfect level, gave it to my daughter to read. She's a high school runner and I think it will benefit her to know why she is doing what she is doing.

Canova in his marathon book has the last 6-8wks as marathon specific training where the w/o's are geared more to race pace. (it's the idea of training the body to use fat more effeciently as opposed to sugar)

I have followed the Pfitz 18/70 plan this spring in preparing for Grandma's in Duluth. It will be my first race effort marathon and I've never trained over 60 mpw before. The program is deceiving is that it's 70 miles over 6 days so the volume is in my opinion more like running 80 miles a week.

I did have to swap a few weeks because of race schedules, and that put the two toughest weeks back to back which about killed me. I do feel better now that we are tapering and with a little luck will break 2:40 on June 17th.

The biggest change that I made was doing mile intervals instead ok 1K. This was partially because I like doing my workouts away from the track, and have several routes around with every 1/2 mile marked. They also work well for me when it comes to building strength, which is what the Marathon is all about.

I used his 24 week 70+ mpw schedule for a marathon recently. I like his book because it explains why you are doing certain workouts during the different cycles (endurance, endurance + LT, race specific, taper). After going through the 24 week schedule, I think the recovery weeks (75% normal mileage and cutting back on intensity) were beneficial. I'm also a fan of the weekly 15 mile medium-long run. I think his 3 week taper plan is excellent.

- running twice on a day that calls for a medium-long run. I tried putting in 5 miles AM and 14 miles PM one time because it was in the schedule. That nearly killed me. My long run on the following weekend was slower than usual as a result of dead-tired legs.

Another nice thing is you actually do have easy days - at least in the 70mpw program - either a day off, or a day of 6 miles easy or 6am and 4pm - so you don't have to push through 10 miles everyday. If you work, consistently doing the midweek long run takes dedication but it pays off.

I am thinking of using the 24 week- up to 70 miles plan as the outline for my training for my second marathon and (hopefully) OT qualifier. The plan is pretty close to the training that I did first marathon (2:50) in terms of mileage, but it's a bit more intense. I don't want to increase my mileage too much for the second marathon-- due primarily to lack of hours in the day since I work full time!

The lowest weekly distance plan goes up to 55 miles per week. The other plans are 55 to 70 miles per week, 70 to 85, and 85+ miles. I used the lowest mileage plan to train for the 2018 Boston Marathon, and it was still more more advanced than other training plans I had used previously. (For reference, the next year when training for the 2019 Boston Marathon with a running coach, I ran 50-70 miles a week.)

The plans in this book use periodization and are broken in five mesocycles. Each mesocycle develops a different system to get you to race day well trained. And the final mesocycle helps you recover and return to running after race day. I especially love the last mesocycle since post-race day recovery and running is something nearly ALL race plans neglect to address.

I like that there is variety in the plan throughout the 12-18 weeks as well as variety throughout each week. You can see from that page that there are lots of interval workouts and cross training days. And I love the easy runs that are included. The variation helps prevent burnout.

Note: If you want to be self-trained, but have a little extra guidance without the cost of a coach, I provide support to members of my running course with their training plans, whichever ones they choose to use.

In 2019, I hired a coach (Enoch Nadler, an elite runner) to train me for the 2019 Boston Marathon. With his help, I set a new PR in the half marathon and a 10 minute PR at the 2019 Boston Marathon. Sites like RunnersWorld.com or Hal Higdon also offer online coaching services, some free and some paid.

Hi Nate,

This post is very informative for me, as I just completed by 3rd marathon on the Pfitzinger 55/70 schedule and all three ended up with me not quite reaching my potential based on shorter distance races (2:56, 2:53, 2:54 - if that matters. Earlier this year I ran a 60 min 10mi so was aiming for more like sub-2:50). In all cases I had a pretty bad fade in the last 5-7k. Next year I hope to incorporate some more Canova style workouts to combat this.

Just one thing I wanted to confirm - do you suggest only swapping in Canova workouts from 8 weeks to go until 2 weeks to go, or also including the workouts earlier in the schedule? I wonder if you feel there would be a benefit from adding more MP work earlier in the schedule. Pfitzinger only has 3 runs with MP in the first 10 weeks, and the rest is LT.

Thanks!

Mike

I think it is key to add way more of the Canova style specific workouts in the last 8 weeks. But if it was me I would also do some, not all, of my long runs before that at around 90% mp and I would do at least a few sessions of something in the range to 12xmile to 8x2miles at marathon pace with half mile jog recoveries in the weeks/months before getting to that specific period.

-Nate

Hi Nate,

I know this was a while ago but just wanted to thank you for taking the time. Its invaluable to have the comparison. I haven't read Pfitzinger and have glanced at casanova on letsrun but he seems to be barely intelligible. Something to do with language and also he seems to invent his own terms of reference. You have done a great job of clarifying. I will however approach with caution, as a late starter now aged 49 I'm wary of too much heavy training.

I trust coaching is making you happy,

Cheers dom

Dom,

I think that heavy workouts are ok as you age but the recovery after and the time between these sessions needs to be much more than when you are younger or if you had a time when you were more bullet proof so I think your caution is a good plan.

-Nate

I think, at the top level anyway, it is where the marathon HAS already gone. There have been two big jumps in marathoning since the turn of the century after a period of 25 years with only small incrimental improvements. The first bringing world class marathoning from the 2:07 to 2:10 range to the 2:04 to 2:07 range was this shift to doing way more long fast running. Both at marathon speed as well as at 90 to 95% of marathon speed. The second of course has been the shoes. That brought us to this world of world class being 2:01 to 2:05. Charlie's book is great. He really didn't have a lot of natural talent but he was a genius in terms of mindset and always a HUGE performer when it mattered most. As a slower sprinter he was probabaly a pure marathoner so doing more specific work may not have helped him as much as some of the runners from the era who really under performed in the marathon, Mark Nenow and the like. But still I'd guess he would have run 2:06 or better. Still times are always realitive to the time and will fade in luster. Medals, wins,national teams these things last forever untarnished. I think Charlie was under respected in his time. When athletes look back now you can't help but see him for the giant he was. As an aside he also wrote an interesting book on diet. I'm not as big a fan of meat as him but it is worth a read. I don't agree with all his conclusions but he outlines the problems in the modern diet very clearly and very well.

Hansons Marathon Method lays out the smartest marathon training program available from one of the most accomplished running groups in the world. Using their innovative approach, runners will mold real marathon muscles, train their body to never hit the wall, and prepare to run their fastest marathon.

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