voters have spoken

[nicola griffith]

And they have not been clear: http://asknicola.blogspot.com/2009/01/votes-are-in.html.

So what are your thoughts?  We could plough on, but I'm concerned that many of us think we're not there yet.  I'm also concerned that we'll bog down in interminable discussion and never go anywhere.

So, speak, please.

--
www.nicolagriffith.com
http://asknicola.blogspot.com

[mark heath]

Nicola's memorabilia/memoir received great press. Maybe another well-known writer could get the same treatment.

Whatever project is taken, it needs to have a concise hook, something that can be described in a few words. Or so I think.

I also don't know that the selected project needs to be the one with the most votes. I think the idea of the group is to support each member. If a case can be made for the marketability of an idea, even if it doesn't sit in your personal top 3, a commitment to the co-op should come first. If we like the idea of publishing/marketing joining hands with the artists, we should hold hands.

I like Nicola's idea of starting small with a test project, just to see how all the parts will fit together.

mark

--
http://www.nobrowcartoons.com

[Karina Melendez]

I'm with you, Mark. Of course we all enjoy talking about an ideal project, but the truth is that we're experimenting here and bound to mess up a bit (or a lot). While there are some projects I like more than others, I'm definitely committed to any idea we decide to mover forward with. Once the first publication takes off, we'll get to work on the next one, and eventually make our way through the list.

I was hoping that option #28 wouldn't be so hot, because I feel that we just really need to get going, as we've got so much more talk ahead of us just to sort out the logistics and stuff.

karina

[sanchez...@att.net]

#28. If people want to vote again, I'm for it. I think we need a new
start.

[Bear aka HNU]

#28 being so close to winning is indeed a problem. here's my take: why
don't we start working on multiple projects? take the first three, for
example, and work on all of them, at once? there's enough of us
already so that we can do that without being undermanned on one or
another of these.
i'm still partial with doing nicola's story collection first. after
all, it's the project that's closest to completion...

[Jennifer Durham]

I could go either way - I will support whatever the co-op decides as best I can.

But. Maybe it would be good to refine #27 and do a run-off vote between that and the other top two things.  That seems reasonable given the large number of options in the first go 'round.

It bugs me that not many people have weighed in on what they think the objectives of the co-op should be.  Maybe it seems obvious to them - I don't know.

I’m not so sure we do have enough people to work on multiple projects at once.  Because I think that anyone who has not signed up for this group is not very serious and can't be relied on for much.  But maybe they are just slow to get started?  What do you all think?  What do you think about closing this group to public viewing once we get it going?

And maybe like you said in another message Nicola - maybe we need to start with something that's already written?  Just to get this thing going?  

Whatever we choose, it is not going to be everyone's ideal thing - how could it be?  My only hesitation is that I suspect we all have to like it enough to be fired up enough about it to do the work that will need to be done.

Hell, what do we do now?  Vote on whether to re-vote?

Fuck it let’s just go with #27.  I almost voted for it as my ‘B’ vote.  And Kelley almost talked me into it with her comments.  I’m just not sure about the last moments thing.  Where’s the hope in that?  I hated that movie “Last Night”  (sorry Karina)  I’m not buying the white light thing.  

How’s that for a concise answer?

Jennifer

> --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~

[malinda]

I would advocate "moving on" as opposed to endless discussion, but I
don't think we can move on until we know what we're moving on to. I
also agree with Jennifer above -- I am not clear on what the
objectives of this are. If it's fun and play, then we are absolutely
ready to move on. If it's to provide an alternative and preferable
method of publishing/distribution of creative works, then we are not
ready. I suggest that before we move onto any projects, it's necessary
to come up with our objective -- a mission statement, if you will. I
think that will help to focus the direction of the first project(s) we
take on.

And within that mission statement, I personally would need to know
what the collective's financial goals are. Some folks have mentioned
giving stuff away for free, and frankly, I'm not down with that. I
think that one of Nicola's original posts about this idea brought up
the fact that the creator (writer, artist) would need to get 50% of
the income. I'm not sure if that would work, but as a full-time
writer, I need to get paid for what I write. It is possible to publish
things online and have revenue generated through ad sales, but it's
not a very profitable or workable model, and we'd really need someone
with experience in online advertising to make that work. So this is
one of the major stumbling blocks I keep coming around. How is this
collective going to keep us in business as active creators? If it's
meant to be a fun thing where we join together and support each other
but don't worry about getting paid, it's an entirely different animal.

So, those are my thoughts right now.

[Adam Lowe]

I think finished projects are a definite must. Maybe it might be better if people submitted already finished mss, and then we as a coop adjuducate between them and pick our first project from those? People might only need post the opening, and we say which ones make us want to read more. Then perhaps the top three could post a full synopsis and we vote on one final project to take forward, based on that?

2009/1/13 malinda <malin...@gmail.com>

--
Regards

Adam Lowe

Features Editor
Bent [http://mag.bent.com]
Editor-in-Chief
Polluto [http://www.polluto.com]
Publisher/Editor
Dog Horn Publishing [http://www.doghornpublishing.com]

Mobile: +44 (0) 7906 242 232
Office: +44 (0) 113 279 3573


If you would like to stop receiving these emails, please reply with UNSUBSCRIBE in the subject.

[John-Henri]

I don't know how much I'll be able to contribute to this, living in
Sweden and with English as only a second language, but on the other
hand the project seems fascinating and if nothing else, I've been
involved in publishing of one kind or another since the age of 12 –
starting out with mimeographed fanzines, moving on to magazines and
books, for a while being editorial director for fiction with the
second largest publishing house in the country, and now part owner of
a company specializing in editorial productions for international
multi-language publishers (while publishing an sf magazine as a
hobby). So possibly I have some experience that may be of interest or
help.

As for how to start, from what I've read so far, I would tend to agree
with Adam Lowe above. Finished projects are necessary (or, as Swedish
author GunBritt Sundström once put it, "You can't type four-handed").
And unless the idea is to publish at a loss, any new publisher needs
to start with either work by authors with an already existing audience
and name recognition, or fairly strictly within some genre with a
reasonably large group of fanatic collectors and with something
appealing to them ("The Hobbit Cookbook"), or with something
immediately irresistable as its subject and title ("The Champagne and
Chocolate Loose Weight Diet"). Had I voted on the various proposals, I
would have gone with Nicola's story collection.

As for giving work away to foreign publishers, having been one, I
would in all honesty advise against this. Not only Hollywood is expert
in showing losses on successful projects. If the idea is to get work
spread, there are other ways than giving it away for free, such as
waiving advance payments or contracting for a sliding percentage fee.

[Chadao]

I say move forward. We do have a winner with no hanging chads.
Otherwise we might worry this to death and wind up doing nothing.

[Adam Lowe]

It's good to make a decision, but it's better to make the right one.
How about this:

For the next week or two we all work together to flesh out the top
three ideas and work out exactly how they'd look. We'd end up with
three really strong proposals, and then we pick one from there. As it
is, I fear we don't know enough about each of the ideas to develop
them and go forward with a positive course of action.

Think of this as The X Factor/American Idol, with the next couple of
weeks the period where the contestants receive coaching and are
allowed to grow before the final. Only then can we really see which
ideas will last the distance. I'd hate for us to commit to a project
which later fails due to lack of direction and/or interest.

--
Sent from Google Mail for mobile | mobile.google.com

[malinda]

Adam and John-Henri (hi!) have raised some interesting points, which
have raised the following issues for me:

1. I'm all for incorporating work from established authors/artists in
any initial project (I think it is essential), but I don't want to
exclude artists who have not been published by the establishment from
participating. I think this is, again, related to the mission
statement thing: what's the point of doing this? I don't really see
the point of doing the same thing that the establishment is already
doing, which is often publishing work by authors with an established
audience and/or on a subject with a built-in fan base. Both are
important, but in a collective that I'm part of, I'd like to include
those who are often shut out.

2. I'd like to reiterate my desire to see us flesh out a mission
statement. I would find it difficult to flesh out any project
proposals without knowing the purpose behind them. Is the co-op's goal
simply to publish and distribute "really good work"? If so, what is
"really good work"? Are there any other purposes to the co-op? For
example, AfterEllen.com's tagline (which was an abbreviated mission
statement) originally was "because visibility matters." Those three
words were instrumental in shaping the content that was published on
that website, and led to a brand identity that people recognized when
they saw it. It helped us figure out what to publish (from essays to
news to video) and how to publish it. What do you (collectively) think
the mission of this co-op is?

3. Introductions? I know that many of you have been commenting on
Nicola's blog for awhile, and I've read many of the comments, but I'm
guessing that not everybody who commented is in this group.
Personally, I'd like to know who everyone is here. Not just a "My name
is so-and-so and I'm from Anytown," but I'd like to know about your
creative interests, why you're part of this group, and what
experiences you bring to it. If folks are up for that, I'm happy to
start an introductions thread.

[Karina Melendez]

Malinda, I think you have a point. Taking a few weeks to get our mission statement drafted is a good idea, and well worth investing our time in. We could keep the three most popular projects in mind while doing so, and also stay open to new options that may arise as a result of the mission statement becoming clear.

Please, do start an "introductions" thread.

[nicola griffith]

I think we have two paths to follow simultaneously.

1) a mission statement, which would flow from our introductions and why we're here, what we can offer etc.
2) discussion of the top vote-getting ideas, which are a) we're not there yet, b) the world: the end, c) the Iliad, d) my short stories.

Seeing as we don't know what the right idea should be, and seeing as there's a strong leaning towards a finished product I'd suggest either i) my memoir, or ii) a competition for an already completed booklength work (stories, novel, or graphic versions of same) by an unknown--or, hey, a huge Known if they want to play--that we could publish with a nifty forward from a Big Name.  Then we discuss those.

But let's do it concurrently, and let's do it fast.  I get a definite sense of us being a strike-while-the-iron's-hot crew, so let's not let the metal spoil.

Thoughts?

N


--
www.nicolagriffith.com
http://asknicola.blogspot.com

[Karina Melendez]

It's really late and my brain is melting, but I'm sure I want to move forward. I'd hate to see our energy levels go down as time and talk stacks up on us.

And I'm all for the memoir. It already got a lot of press as a limited edition, fancy multimedia treasure box. Now we can make it affordable, and a slightly different kind of multimedia.

I still want to do the intros and talk about our goals/expectations/dreams for this co-op on a parallel thread to the "voting on project" one.

karina

[JenniferD]

I'm with you on doing this fast, but I'm not so sure about the
concurrently part.

It's difficult to arrive at a destination if you don't know exactly
where you are going. Maybe one reason the voting is not completely
conclusive is that we are not clear enough on where we are taking
this. I'm thinking if we are clearer on where we are taking this, it
might be easier to come up with the vehicle that would be best to get
there.

Mission/objectives asap. It shouldn't really take that long - surely
most everyone already has their own thoughts on this? Get the
introductions/objectives clarified, and then refine the mission
statement while continuing with the ideas.

A competition for an already completed novel was one of the ideas up
for voting: #24 - your suggestion is a variation of that. Did it get
any votes? I should've voted for it because I liked the idea.

I would choose the memoir just because your short stories (which I
love) have already been published or made available online (haven't
they?). The memoir has had less exposure. What about combining some
of your short stories with a couple of other well established authors
who are interested?

Jennifer