Aussie Bottle Digger
Gary Vines
members can recognise where some of the photos on the Aussie Bottle
Digger Web site
http://members.optusnet.com.au/myky/abcv/digging.htm
might have come from.
some look like they are in back yards, but I recall Iain Stuart (I
think) once talking about an adit being dug under the railway
embankment at West Melbourne tracing the old Batman's Swamp Tip site.
Of course if you recognise any of the diggers (those without their
faces obscured) then you might be obliged to pass on the information
to the appropriate enforcement body.
all the best
Gary Vines
Doug Williams
and completely unrepentant.....like most site looters, sorry 'collectors'.
Doug Williams
http://members.optusnet.com.au/myky/abcv/digging.htm
might have come from.
all the best
Gary Vines
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Tessa Corkill
Contact: Rick Irving 8272 9707
Their website is www.mitchamhistoricalsociety.org.au/Not about bottles so far so as I know but perhaps his "dig" (or digs) were in SA.
Tessa C
____________________
John
Hello,
As a geologist I have one of two old blue'd or violet bottles from old mine
sites. Nothing much.
However I'd like to mention the case of "prospectors".
These people study the historical records .. that's how they find out where
the old mines were.
PLUS, in most old mine settlements that have now vanished there was usually
a hotel.
Some gold prospectors, as a side-line, have made a practice of finding out
where the old hotel had stood. They'd then go there and find it's old
bottle heap, excavate that and maybe get a haul of bottles they cold sell.
At some places (I think it might have been at Mt Costigan or somewhere
around there) I've seen then with maybe a hundred or more decent intact
bottles they'd dug out of an old glass heap .. the vast majority of which
would be broken glass.
I'd suspect this is largely a thing of the past by now, with not too many
vanished hotel sites still left unlocated and dug by such persons.
Also when I was young there was a suburban site that was very well know ..
known to us kids anyway.
It is on the western canal (Hawthorne Canal) flank just north of where
Grosvenor Street goes under the western railway line, at Summer Hill.
Possibly Ashfield Council dumped municipal wastes there once?
The site was formerly infested with rubbishy plant growth and the bottle
prospectors had shallow diggings in amongst that. These diggings were just
shallow .. the deepest being trench-like but not proceeding 'underground' :-)
I could never see any decent bottles there myself (and only ever went there
maybe two or three times) but other kids assured me that plenty of good
ones had been obtained there in the past. Parents would probably not have
been told of excursions to this place, as being 'derelict' it was
considered a somewhat mysterious or dangerous place, off limits or a bit
like swimming in brick pit ponds - which was also frowned upon.
Who knows? Kids also used to say that chemist shops paid good money for
the wings of black princes and that was a myth.
Today that area is all cleaned up and landscaped and has a sign saying, I
think, 'Wangal Reserve' .. just from memory. In the past it had no local
indigenous connections known at all, prior to that quite recent signage.
That's the only site I know about around Sydney that was dug for bottles -
even though there must have been very many tip sites.
Along the upper Cooks River there's lots of emplaced fill - this doesn't
have any noticeable bottle content but in it is not infrequently seen
fragments of light-coloured yellowish bricks that are quite soft. I'd
suspect that a lot of very early old modest houses, demolished, ended up
there ... assuming this sort of (likely hand moulded?) soft or low-fired
bricks well predate the harder machine pressed shale ones.
Cheers,
John
~~~~~~~~~~~
Shaun Canning
Dr Shaun Canning
General Manager
Australian Cultural Heritage Management (Vic) Pty Ltd
0400 204536
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IainS
posts in relation to John. Happy to protect geological but not human
history.
If faces are being masked, as in this case then it is clear that the
people are aware of the illegal nature of their activities.
As I recall the West Melbourne tip diggings looked a bit like one of
those pictures. They were down about 2m and then were digging an adit
under an active goods line. All this in unconsolidated sediments
(landfill) with no shoring or any form of safety. My concern was with
the possible impact on the goods train and so contacted V/Line and
their security people got rid of the diggers and the line was shut
till the holes were backfilled and compacted.
Like most diggers their concern for our history was minimal - confined
to finding out where bottles might be located and what their age was
and the concern for their safety and that of others was also minimal
(and frightening). It was all about their collection and "their
rights", it is, inward looking. Experience shows that once wives and
kinds arrives the bottle collection gets sold off or stuffed under the
house to moulder.
At least archaeologists have the aim of doing something for the
broader population- the public interest - even if some of the end
results are a bit like my characterisation of a bottle digger. This is
why general publications, preservation "in situ", interpretation,
public open days and having sites open in the long term for public
viewing are so important because they demonstrate why archaeology is
different from the "diggers" and why it is important to support
archaeological programs.
Iain
Jeannette Hope
students, excavated an old hotel site at Moorna on the Murray (yes, we'll
publish it soon!).
The area had been targeted by bottle collectors before we started, it was
badly dug over. The place is well known locally, information about the old
town and the hotel is as easy to come by, and access is even easier - it's
right on the river and close to boating/fishing oriented caravan park.
We were afraid our project would aggravate the situation because of the
publicity the project received, and we discussed with the landholder ways of
protecting and monitoring, but the size and location made this difficult.
However, six years later, it's clear that the project and the publicity have
actually reduced the vandalism - we've seen no sign of any diggings etc.
since our work. We made an effort to put the word out among the locals -
chatting up the caravan park managers (and doing this regularly whenever
there was a change of manager). There was no way we could stop people
landing from the river and wandering over the site - the message we wanted
the managers etc to tell visitors was - if you stop at the old town, it's an
important historical site, there's a big project going on, the owners keep
an eye on it etc. - a combination of raised awareness and mild deterrence.
It seems to have worked.
[I once asked the owner of Moorna about people landing or camping on the ca
30km river frontage of the property. 'Oh, we probably average 2000 over the
Christmas-NY period; it's OK if it's very hot, they just stay near the
river, but if the weather's cooler, they take the trail bikes off their
boats and then we have a problem.']
By the way, I have a memory than someone (in Victoria?) did an
archaeological/heritage thesis on bottle collecting in the late 80s-early
90s. Author? Was it ever published?
I have always been surprised that the heritage agencies have been so
uninterested in policing this area - has any bottle collector ever been
prosecuted for damaging an archaeological site/excavating without a permit
and a research strategy? (When I think of the process we had to go through
to get permits for Moorna...!)
Jeannette
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Elspeth
Brisbane 'collectors' about the damage they are doing to the
historical record, and he tells me that the common practice with this
particular group at any rate, is to collect the bottles that they want
and then smash any remaining or common bottles into the bottom of the
pit before it is backfilled. The theory behind this is apparently to
let other bottle collectors know that this area has already been dug
and there is nothing of value left.
They continue to find new sites to dig even in the city of Brisbane,
so there must still be a lot available for the people who are willing
to search a little more remotely as well. I seem to remember a
particular controversy about people even breaking into the official
archaeologicial excavation at the old Police Barracks on Petrie
Terrace in order to look for bottles before the archaeologists had a
chance to find anything. If that's not looting I don't know what is.
Elspeth Mackenzie
iain.d...@live.com.au
the mid 1990s. Are you out there Jill?
Iain
Iain Davidson
Visiting Professor, Flinders University
Emeritus Professor, University of New England
Mailing address
10 Cluny Rd, Armidale, NSW 2350, Australia
Mobile phone +61 402 106 853
http://www.flickr.com/photos/23766603@N07/
last upload 3 February 2010
--------------------------------------------------
From: "Jeannette Hope" <riverj...@iinet.net.au>
Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 10:26 AM
To: <oza...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: RE: {OzArch} Aussie Bottle Digger
Pam Smith
----- Original Message -----From: Tessa CorkillSent: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 4:14 PMSubject: Re: {OzArch} Aussie Bottle Digger
scribecyphier
This might be more of a help to all, this is a link to there info web
page with sale items, wanted items and contact phone numbers and names
of the people who posted the Aussie Bottle Digger pics. "The Aussie
Bottle Collectors" http://members.optusnet.com.au/myky/abcv/Intro.htm
Jason Gatty
Laraine
Laraine
Archaeologist
RPS HSO
Jeannette Hope
Jill Ruig's thesis is probably the one I remembered. Was it ever published?
If the heritage agencies are so slack, maybe we need a direct campaign.
Attacking their use of the name 'Aussie' on the grounds that it's
unAustralian to destroy Australian history.
A related concern of mine is the scorched earth policy when pastoral
homesteads are sold - where every single moveable item that might be worth
some money is sold separately to dealers. When the Trust for Nature (Vic)
bought the historic Neds Corner Station on the Murray ca 2000, they didn't
realise this until nearly too late - so they acquired buildings and sheds
with not one skerrick of moveable historic items left apart from a couple of
wool baskets for which they scraped up a little extra money at the last
minute. I heard (but haven't confirmed) that even a portrait of Ned Bagot
(owner ca 1850s) which had remained with the house since whenever also
vanished. I've heard other stories of the disappearance of station records
at time of sale. This seems to be a fairly recent phenomenon (post 1980).
Jeannette
-----Original Message-----
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iain.d...@live.com.au
Sent: Thursday, 4 February 2010 10:56 AM
To: oza...@googlegroups.com
Iain
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IainS
"slack" in some way, people have to be aware of
1) The rules of evidence - the website is hearsay and has little
evidential force
2) The actual provisions of the heritage act in force, what are the
relevant provisions
3) The ability of the Heritage Agencies to collect information to lay
a prosecution and the willingness of the relevant DPP to prosecute
under that legislation.
As someone who has undergone "enforcement" training and been involved
in prosecutions and attempted prosecutions as well as reviewing a case
in which simple evidence taking was not done by the relevant officers
thus letting the offender go free, I can state it is much more complex
to take action than it appears (ironically you might get greater
action from Workcover re unsafe excavations). Apart from anything else
you need to collect evidence in a precise and legal manner.
As I recall when a similar query arose about a bottle "digger" from
Victoria on the ABC show Collectors, Heritage Vic were very quick to
act.
Regards
Iain
John
Hello,
"Taking action" can indeed be difficult and complex.
I wouldn't be much interested myself on 'enforcement' for bottle diggers.
However, should anyone be seriously interested (generally) in government
enforcement policy I can higly recommend one very good case study to look at.
It's connected with mine safety.
Mining is dangerous and the ground often used to fall in upon the miners
and so on (mine tragedies still do occur, and on a massive scale in China's
coal mines in particular).
Government mines inspectors in NSW and other States, would and do always
investigate.
In the past, pretty much always the fault was found to lie with the workers
.. careless, took risks, disobeyed mine instructions, etc.
Then along came a famous case called 'Gretley'.
This is a coal mine. There, coal miners were pushing forwards, as usual;
digging out the coal seam with their "continous miner" (a machine with
drum-mounted revolving teeth in front of it, on an up-down movable boom for
gouging away at the full height of the seam).
Suddenly .. kawooosh .. they broke into the flooded workings of an adjacent
long-abandonned colliery.
The sudden inrush of water swept back the heavy machinery.
The shift of mineworkers there at the time were of course all drowned.
This became a very hard one for anyone to pin on 'negligent workers'.
Relatives in fact were outraged and demanded "PROSECUTION".
They were most vengeful, demanding management blood, or at least their jobs.
BUT .. big problem here !
Because, in effect the mines department virtually never had prosecuted
companies.
It had often fined workers or lower managers ... but perhaps had never
before prosecuted companies for manslaughter/deaths?
In fact it turned out that it didn't even have any adequate "prosecutions
policy".
How could it possibly prosecute without a prosecutions policy?
So the formulation of a prosecutions/enforcement policy had to be commenced.
All this this went on for literally 'years'.
So, as stated .. if anyone is seriously interested in
prosection/enforcement policy it would be very informative to wade through
this case ... it's many feet (using old terminology) thick.
Cheers,
John
~~~~~~~~~
>Regards
>Iain
John
Hello,
Hee hee, Jeanette's use of the term "Scorched Earth Policy" reminds me more
than a bit of what NPWS does, or used to do (in its more 'insensitive?'
days) when it takes over an area.
I went looking once for some old cattle stations out from Tibooburra.
I think "Mount King" was one ..? ... just from memory though. I could be
wrong, maybe Mt King was not one of the flattened ones?
But whatever one I fist went looking for, what what I found was a bulldozed
pile of timber and corrugated iron. That was propably where it had stood?
Other ?old homesteads had become similar around that area I think.
Jeanette probably knows that area?
Also, under the State Government's 'practicality' measures, many old
western lines' railway sidings/stations likewise ended up as similar
bulldozed heaps.
I had thought some of these were rather 'cute', myself, and lamented that
they bulldozed the Mt. Boppy small siding and waiting shed for example.
Maybe I am just supidly sentimental in liking an old railway
station/siding/shed .. I do realise.
I think Girilambone and Coolabah stations have so far escaped, but I have
not been back there for some time.
However, the 'scorched earth policy' certainly was applied to the
'Budgerygar' mines that are part of the 'Girilambone mines' group.
Soil Conservation did that ... under 'contract' to State Government.
They do not themselves refer to such behaviour as "scorched earth policy".
They call it "rehabilitation".
The general modus operandi is to flatten everything in sight and to make it
look like a bare-earth playing field.
As someone who was at the time trying to record old mines (also working
"for the government", note) I protested .. very mildly though.
You cannot strongly protest in government against another agency's actions
... only very very very softly (and watching your own back).
It was suggested that before they completely bulldozed away the old shaft
collar mine dumps, permanent markers be placed at them .. because after it
all become one big bulldozed flat area like a playing field, working out
where the shafts had been and what had happened at the place would get to
be very much harder, if not impossible.
No such markers, however, were ever placed .. 'just bulldoze everything'
won the day.
Cheers,
John
Mark Moore
Developmental Road, with help from the local historical society. All of the
glass there was shattered, forming a clast-supported deposit of many cubic
metres. The place had been picked-over and dug out by bottle collectors,
but they left behind the broken stuff. We were able to correlate finishes
with body fragments with bases across a large number of bottle types, and,
using some assumptions about MNI based on the fragments, we were able to
make an interesting story about local drinking habits. We archaeologists
don't need the whole stuff. But, after seeing those web photos, it would be
interesting to know how the looting might have biased the sample; on the
face of it, you might argue that bottle breakage is random across bottle
type, and the glass fragments in a heavily looted site will still be a good
approximation of what went into it.
Incidentally, a local said that some Americans had come through Cooktown in
the 1970s (before it was generally recognized in Australia that there was
pecuniary value in old bottles) and looted all the major sites on the Palmer
goldfield. This local also told us that the serious looters broke the
surplus bottles, ostensibly to lower the supply of complete bottles.
--Mark
Dr Mark Moore
Research Fellow
Australian Research Council
Archaeology and Palaeoanthropology
University of New England
Armidale NSW 2351 Australia
Phone 61 2 6773 5075
Email mmo...@une.edu.au
www.une.edu.au
-----Original Message-----
From: oza...@googlegroups.com [mailto:oza...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of
Jeannette Hope
Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 10:26 AM
To: oza...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: {OzArch} Aussie Bottle Digger
John
Hello,
My interests include both records-keeping and what ultimately happens to
stuff.
There's a vast amound of buried rubbish around cities and towns, and also
at individual isolated old home sites.
So bottle collectors, looters, may dig the eyes out of and take away what
they regard as 'treasure' and leave the 'trash'.
And in some cases the entire lot is dug up and kept.
I'm interested personally in digging up any of my own 'ancestor' sites.
So far that's been done for one of my ancestors, named Lee.
Found the Lees' house rubbish dump, and with permission of the property
owner all the rubbish was dug up and taken away.
It's for the most part broken glass I'd say, some ceramics and metal,
typical country household rubbish.
It's all neatly piled in boxes now, boxes and boxes of it. And very well
looked after by a small but most vigorous and keen amateur group of
archaeology-minded folk.
But can groups like that last forever?
Then what happens to it.
The same thing goes for records. I have worked for organisations that
have gathered magnificent records collections.
The last such company I worked for was taken over by a bigger international
company.
That company then did not want that records collection (which had been a
very important and well regarded aspect of the company they purchased). So
they put them into paid storage (the bigger international company taking
over had a "paperless office" corporate policy) .. possibly having in mind
that they will sell them if they can find a buyer.
I'm just guessing that of course, their intentions.
But what if they found no buyer, tired of paying money to store that stuff
and just said to the storage place (Iron Mountain) "destroy it all" and
paid for its destruction.
Then down the drain would go decades of work and one of the best ..
probably *THE* best ... compilation of records on this subject area in
Australia (I strongly suspect this particular ?endangered collection is
unparalled - and far better that anything government may have in that area).
And the government would know nothing about it ... and possibly wouldn't
care if they did(?).
So you have questions both of what happens finally to 'materials' (and this
can be potentially vast?)
And also of records (and that can be pretty vast too .. ).
Cheers,
John
~~~~~~~~~~~
Doug Williams
broken fragments not just whole bottles:
I quite agree - we do the same with ceramics, metals, organics - everything
is fragmentary and we can get economic, stylistic and temporal information
from the broken fragments as well as the whole items. Leaving aside the
illegality of their hobby, the main problem with bottle looters is that they
dig for bottles with no regard for what else might be in the hole, and no
regard for stratigraphy or context....and why would they, they're after
bottles after all. Then if they're conscientious looters they refill the
hole. So, after shovelling hell for leather through the cesspit or well,
through all the interesting archaeology to get the bottles, its all just a
jumbled mess. So I don't think its necessarily just about taking bottles,
but very much about the damage done to the whole feature or site in the
process.
Doug Williams
Shaun Canning
Doug is spot on.
Regards,
Dr. Shaun Canning, FAAS1, MAACAI2, MAIPM3, BA, B.App.Sci (Hons), PhD (La Trobe)
General Manager - Victoria
Principal Heritage Advisor
Australian Cultural Heritage Management (Vic) Pty Ltd
G. P.O Box 5112, Melbourne, VIC, 3001
Phone: 1300 724 913
Fax: (03) 5781 0860
Mobile: 0400 204 536
1. Fellow of the Australian Anthropological Society
2. Member of the Australian Association of Consulting Archaeologists Inc.
3. Member of the Australian Institute of Project Management
ACHM has offices in Adelaide, Melbourne and Perth and provides services throughout Australia
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From: oza...@googlegroups.com [mailto:oza...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Doug Williams
Sent: Thursday, 4 February 2010 3:28 PM
To: oza...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: {OzArch} Aussie Bottle Digger
Doug Williams
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cosmos coroneos
Was on a dig a few years back in Brisbane which included a late 19th century
rubbish dump. One morning we arrived on site to find some of our trenches
ratted in search for bottles. For the rest of the dig (2 months or so) we
had a security guard on site after hours. No Chubb drive bys, the guard was
planted there in a shed all night. On occasion a guy would show up on dark
and start digging along the edge of dig boundary fence. He would tell me
that it was his right to be there. I told him if that the case why not dig
at that spot during the day as it was easier to see.
On that dig we took on 3 bottle diggers as volunteers. Their knowledge, not
just on bottles, but site formation and configuration helped us immensely.
One of the three got really into what we were trying do and was a 'natural'.
By the end of the dig he was co-supervising a trench and helped write the
excavation report. The second guy lurved handling the bottles and
dispensing knowledge. He got upset when it had to finish. The third guy
was one day seen with a pricey bottle sticking out of his pocket (dobbed in
by one of the other botuloes). We had to put him down. Just from this
small sample I learnt that not all botuloes have the same motivations.
Its not that these folk take complete bottles from sites its the mindless
damage that they do in the process. On a dig in a major construction site
in the Sydney CBD vandals broke into a locked container and made a mess of
the artefacts in search for bottles. For the rest of the dig the artefacts
were stored offsite at a location where only a few people knew the location
of. Don't get me going on what happened on a recent underwater excavation
in Victoria!
Cheers
Cos
On 4/02/10 10:58 AM, "Elspeth" <elspeth....@rtca.riotinto.com.au>
wrote:
--
Cosmos Coroneos
Director
Cosmos Archaeology Pty Ltd
46 Gale rd
MAROUBRA 2035
AUSTRALIA
(ph) 0061 02 9568 5800
(mobile) 0408 711 645
Jeannette Hope
demolished in the west - to be fair, sometimes it's for safety reasons.
There's also a lot of recycling of material and / or whole buildings or
structures and that's been going on for a long time (19C) - I've been
compiling a list of examples, ranging from a pub that moved three times,
material from another old pub used to build a house, many houses moved
around, 19C telegraph pole now used as TV aerial, stone ruins recycled for
road culvert building material, railway lines cut up for fence posts and so
on.
Sometimes it's just bloody-mindedness - where an unused landmark building is
bulldozed by the owner in spite of (because of?) local sentiment and
affection for it.
Sometimes it's just 'higher priorities'. When the Silverton Tramway
(railway) closed in 1969, it's said that the owners offered the Australian
Army the opportunity to blow up all the bridges for training practice - I
haven't confirmed this, but the bridges are in fact destroyed.
Sometimes it's twisted logic - when I worked in Bass Strait a long time ago,
there was a proposal to demolish a lot of lighthouse support buildings 'to
protect them from vandalism'. And my favourite was a proposal from NSW RTA
in ca 1990 to demolish the old stone Lennox Bridge at Parramatta (because it
acted like a dam on the river and aggravated flooding of underground
carparks, basements etc.). Their presentation to the Heritage Council stated
that they knew the building was historically important, and they'd read the
Burra Charter, where they'd learnt that relocating heritage items was
frowned on. So when they demolished the bridge, they promised, cross their
hearts, that they wouldn't rebuild it somewhere out of place, they'd just
throw the pieces away. HC members nearly had a fit and the demolition never
happened. Now the bridge is listed on the RTA heritage register, see
http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/cgi-bin/index.cgi?action=heritage.show&id=4300301.
Jeannette
Rick McGovern-Wilson
We get exactly the same sort of problems in New Zealand - don't get me
started. We have successfully prosecuted 3 bottle diggers in recent
years, one of whom has until recently been the national president of the
bottle collectors association!
There was recently a case in Auckland where a well on a construction
site was raided over a weekend and largely cleaned out, and the
perpetrators came back 3 nights later to finish the job! One of the
suspects has a demolition company which he uses to scout for likely
bottle sites while doing the quotes for the demolition. In the case of
the well, the police were unwilling to execute a search warrant on the
demo company (where we were 99.9% sure the bottles were being stored)
because they were "too busy" with gang confrontations in South Auckland.
Cheers
Rick
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dr Rick McGovern-Wilson, Senior Archaeologist
New Zealand Historic Places Trust / Pouhere Taonga
P O Box 2629, Wellington 6140, New Zealand
Ph: +64-04-472-4341; Fax: +64-04-499-0669
DDI: +64-04-470-8055; Mob: +64-021-814-734
Email: snrarcha...@historic.org.nz
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
-----Original Message-----
From: oza...@googlegroups.com [mailto:oza...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of cosmos coroneos
Sent: Thursday, 4 February 2010 5:41 p.m.
To: oza...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: {OzArch} Aussie Bottle Digger
Cheers
Cos
--
Cosmos Coroneos
Director
Cosmos Archaeology Pty Ltd
Steve Corsini
See New Scientist - Digital doomsday: the end of knowledge
02 February 2010 by Tom Simonite and Michael Le Page
Magazine issue 2745. Subscribe and get 4 free issues.
On bottle collectors, I think I've told this story before but ...
In 2002-3 I was involved in monitoring of excavations for a system of
ornamental ponds and reed beds, partly for storm water diversion, on Ozone
Reserve, at the northern end of the Perth Causeway, around the Riverside
Drive - Plain Street T-Junction. We were there because the area has
Aboriginal heritage values and is a site under the Aboriginal Heritage Act.
Excavation for the lakes had to take into account the possibility of
archaeological deposits (meaning deposits associated with the Aboriginal
people etc as defined under the Act). But there were no registered
historical sites so there was no legal requirement for us to record monitor
or sample more recent materials and no encouragement to do so if it mean
stopping the heavy machinery. I understand that there is still no real
protection for the historical archaeological sites unless they are on the
State Heritage Register (I stand to be corrected by Gaye and others?).
The southern half of the land that was excavated was reclaimed. In the
1928-34 period there Government funded a public works program to put a
limestone wall around the north bank of the Swan River from East Perth to
UWA to reclaim a heap of land, which is now the grassed Langley Reserve on
the Perth foreshore and to stop Mounts Bay Road washing away in winter.
To fill the new ground they used material dredged from the river (Sand, mud,
clay and oyster shell) and they used white or grey sand from the immediately
adjacent dunes. They also used grey and various yellow sands to seal the
deposit which was then grassed over and used as Perth's first aerodrome, as
playing fields and for the Rally Australia Special circuit.
When excavation started it was clear where the former shore line had been
filled. And it soon became evident that the reclamation also involved
tipping of domestic and even light industrial rubbish. There were old cars
and motors, 40,000 clay ginger beer bottles (dumped after the govt brought
in laws stating that drinks could only be sold in glass bottles) and
thousands and thousands, millions, of crushed broken bottles, jars, of very
imaginable size and shape. It made me think how much glass wed be using if
plastic hadn't been invented.
From old historical maps it looks like they just backed up their rubbish
carts to the river and dumped their loads. Because the water table was only
900mm below the grass (and subject to tidal fluctuation) no bottle hunters
had been able to access the site, but when the City of Perth started
building the lake the contractors put in massive dewatering systems to allow
them to get down to the bottom of the pit and lay clean clay to line the
ponds.
Once the top-soil had been scraped off you could actually see separate truck
loads, trailer loads and bin loads of rubbish, and the various loads of sand
clay and dredged materials which had then all been buried. After a lot of
discussion with the council (mainly along the lines of - look, the State
Government has forced you top have us here on the off chance that you hit an
unmarked Aboriginal grave or a stone artefact scatter. So, if we are just
standing around waiting for you to accidentally excavate prehistoric
materials, we might as well do some deliberate archaeology on this
historical material while we're here). So, I had organised to do some
archaeological test pitting. The ground was all set up and on Monday when
we came to start work the place looked like a bizarre glass model of the
Somme or Paschendale. There were pits and trenches everywhere. So I'm told,
about 60 bottle collectors jumped the fence and started digging the place -
they had there own mini excavator.
I've had a number of discussions about bottle collecting techniques with
bottle collectors. Most just don't get that there can be more to a site than
bottles. They don't really care much about how the site was formed, what
process you can see preserved, even how to record context and location data
or that there might be other stuff worth finding.
MacLaren North
Smith at Heritage Victoria about this issue - this would have been
about 2004. At that stage HV was pursuing a couple of prosecutions.
Here are some refs I dug out of my thesis footnotes:
Comments in Parliament about illegal excavation -
"Parliament of Victoria (2003). Hansard, Melbourne: Victorian
Government Printer. Second Reading Speech for
the Heritage (Amendment) Bill 2003 by Ms Delahunty (Minister for
Planning), 27 August 2003, Pg 84. These
sentiments were later echoed in a speech by Mr Wynne, Member for
Richmond, during the same debates. 17
September 2003, Pg 536.
Speech by Mr Baillieu (Hawthorn), 16 September 2003, Pp 432-33. The
speech refers to 4 prosecutions in
the previous year, all with guilty pleas, with one prosecution for
archaeological disturbance unresolved at the
time.
This prosecution is detailed in Minchin, L. (2003). Heritage groups
get tough with the raiders of our lost
park. The Age. Melbourne."
When I was at the NSW Heritage Office in about 1999 we looked into
prosecuting someone who was not just digging for bottles, but was
publishing books about his "findings" on some early colonial sites
near the Blue Mountains. And the irony was, we found about about all
of this because the books were for sale at a National Parks and
Wildlife Service shop!
We did refer the matter to the DPP for advice but a) there was a six
month statute of limitations from the time the event occurred (not
since it was discovered - and we were about 3 years too late) and b)
the DPP was not confident the evidentiary issues could be overcome, so
the matter was dropped. I think we wrote the author a letter telling
him to stop digging in the future.
We did at least get the act amended to make the prosecution timeframe
6 months from the discovery of the event, but having looked through
all the case law up until about 2006 there aren't any other
substantial prosecutions I am aware of, anywhere in Australia, unless
they have occurred in the last 2-3 years.
The only case that I know of in Australia where someone got jail time
was for the theft of stegosaurus footprints from a park and protected
Aboriginal site in the NT. That case is detailed in:
Long, J. (2002). The Dinosaur Dealers. Crows Nest, N.S.W., Allen &
Unwin. See also the “Northern Territory
Dinosaur Footprints Case” - Latham v The Queen (2000) WASCA 338.
But part of the reason the fellow ended up in jail, as I recall, was
that he had a previous conviction for something unrelated - a drug
offence maybe. And I think he pled to the charge, whereas his
compatriot defended the charge and was acquitted. The footprints were
rock-sawn out of the coastline, and later dumped in the sea when the
men decided they were "cursed".
And let's not forget incidents like Bonito's Treasure in Victoria -
where the local council actively encouraged "treasure-hunting" for
many years to boost tourism.
Bottom line is, there is little political will to prosecute these
sorts of incidents.
--
MacLaren North
Director
Futurepast Heritage Consulting P/L
Suite 302 Valhalla Studios
166 Glebe Point Road
Glebe NSW 2037
P: 02 9571 7949
F: 02 9518 4376
M: 0438 613 920
Ben Fordyce
At least they're somewhat protected by their remoteness...
Ben Fordyce (B.Sc. Archaeology / Maritime Archaeology)
Archaeologist
Australian Interaction Consultants
Unit 1, 211 Main St, Osborne Park WA 6017
PO Box 90, Osborne Park WA 6917
Direct Tel: ( 08 ) 9345 7465 | Mobile Tel: 040 855 8489
Office Tel: ( 08 ) 9440 0500 | Fax: ( 08 ) 9440 0955
Browse AIC's new-look website www.austint.com.au
IainS
"Bonito's Treasure in Victoria - where the local council actively
encouraged "treasure-hunting" for many years to boost tourism"
This isn't quite correct - the Queenscliff Council as it was prior to
being "Jeffed" had a specific prohibition in its planning scheme on
excavating for Bonito's treasure along the foreshore around the town
(mainly to protect area of revegetation and the railway corridor). I
know this because I was subpoenaed to give evidence in a Planning
Appeals Tribunal case to give evidence on the nature of a "clunk" I
had heard while inspecting trial boring for buried treasure from a
Malaysian pirate (the tab for all this travel was picked up by the NSW
Govt). My private view was that was an ingenious way of circumventing
Council's restrictions which were quite specifically focused on
Bonito's treasure as the digging for treasure was quite a problem.
I am not sure whether there has been a prosecution for this sort of
digging on land based sites - in Victoria, VAS lead the way with
prosecutions on historic shipwrecks but also balanced this with an
education program an active involvement with the diving community. I
can recall certainly collection information on metal detectors
discovered in various Goldfields reserves but we really had no
information to prosecute.
It might be useful instead of moaning about problems with bottle
diggers on this forum to find some examples of destruction and use
these to run a campaign in the Press to lobby for changes. I am sure
support and advice would be forthcoming from the various National
Trusts and many of the professional organisations such as AAA, ASHA,
ICOMOS and TICCIH would be able to add their voices to a well though
out campaign.
It would be good if we could find a vandalised convict site from the
Macquarie era that we could use.
Iain
John Pickard
I have followed the discussion on bottle looting with some interest. Like
many others, I have the odd bottle at home. Each was lying on the surface,
and there was little else in the surrounding couple of hundred metres. Thus
the presence of these bottles tells us very little that we didn't already
know about either post-1788 settlement, industrial development, or just
about anything else except that some early individual dropped his empty
bottle in the scrub at a given point. Big deal. You only have to drive along
any highway to see that the same behaviour persists today, despite Ian
Kiernan's "clean up Oz" ("you drop it, someone else will pick it up")
campaigns. I hasten to add that I only have a very few such items, and that
I no longer pick them up. We (well, most of us) all have such guilty
secrets. But this is not the same as using back hoes to rip up hotel dumps,
take whatever is wanted and smash the rest.
The suggestions re education are interesting, but I wonder how successful
they will be. After all, we have endless campaigns about speeding and
drink-driving, but all are backed up by enforcement.
A somewhat analogous situation arises with 4WD vehicles and trail bikes. I
doubt if there could possibly be any owner or driver of these things who
doesn't know that certain activities with them are illegal: driving around
or busting through locked gates in national parks, driving off-road (i.e.
genuine off-road, not just along some track), etc. The clubs all promote
responsible driving, but there's an awful lot of 4WD owners (me included)
who simply don't join clubs, and those people (me included) get blamed for
all the problems. In early January, my partner and I were camping in western
Vic and southern NSW, and in one place (Bendethera near Braidwood), we had
to douse two fires left burning by some morons. One fire was only 1.5 m from
the creek, and you could kick water from the creek to the fire. The other
fire place was adorned with at least a slab's worth of broken stubbies. This
sort of behaviour, plus donuts / circle work, trying to drive up steep
banks, chopping down green trees, etc. is common. Yet ALL of these
individuals almost certainly know that their activities are illegal. But
they keep doing it because it is fun (???), they simply don't care, and
their chances of getting caught are essentially zero, and the chances of
being prosecuted are even lower. In the meantime, idiots like me pick up all
the rubbish they have left behind, bury their s**t, and put out their fires.
If I had a dollar for every kilo of other people's crap that I have carried
out of the bush, I could probably afford a new set of tyres for my 4WD!
Given this sort of thing, I'm a mite curious about why the proponents of
educating bottle collectors believe it will work. I know why I am careful
about speeding, it's not because I'm too worried about crashing (after all
I'm immortal), but the fear of losing points and my licence. I clean up
campsites because I don't like camping in rubbish. But why would non-club
bottle collectors take any notice of the education campaign? They already
know it is illegal. And the stories in previous posts about needing 24/7
security guards on legit sites are mind-boggling. If these cretins are so
eager to get through or over security fences at city sites, what chance is
there for some pub bottle heap in the middle of nowhere?
This is all a bit gloomy, but it is based on years of observations. Yes, the
amount of dumped and left-behind rubbish is decreasing, so the campaigns are
working, but there's still an awful lot of it around. Sorry to be a wet
blanket on this blokes, but I think looting of bottles and other items (e.g.
aboriginal stone artefacts) is virtually unstoppable. If we reluctantly
accept this, then perhaps its time to decide on an appropriate response but
not lose too much sleep over it. Instead we should actually devote most of
our energies where we can make a difference, and where the really big
threats to heritage are. Having said that, perhaps it's time to do some
formal research using the private bottle collections to see what they
actually contain, where they came from, etc. Apart from our anecdotes, do we
really know how serious the problem actually is? It's a bit like seeing
aboriginal grinding dishes at homesteads (another form of selecting looting)
and wondering what this has done to the integrity of the archaeological
record lying around in paddocks. How about some research into the private
collections of heritage professionals? And I don't mean the miscellaneous
boxes of stuff collected with permits, I mean the items picked up because
they were interesting in some way, but were never intended for formal use in
some analysis or report. What used to be called "souveniring". Now that
would be interesting. I suspect that many of us have smaller or larger
collections that, with hindsight, we feel somewhat embarrassed about.
Cheers, John
John Pickard
john.p...@bigpond.com
IainS
thief's) have broken into two sites that I know of.
One for which I was the Excavation Director had a significant asbestos
problem but that did not deter someone from entering the site and
digging little potholes in areas where it they could get at artefacts
but seemed to have given up in disgust. Anecdotal evidence from
colleagues suggests that this was not an uncommon occurrence on Sydney
sites.
In the other case the site shed was broken into and collectables were
stolen but I'll leave the people associated with that excavation, if
they want to, to explain what happened as I cannot speak for them.
I agree with John that there are unrepentant bottle diggers out there
who are not going to change but there are many who are unaware of for
example the provisions of the NSW Heritage Act (I know that's
shocking) and if the issues were put to them would react in a positive
manner. Particularly if some alternative activity was suggested. This
seemed to work with ship wreckers in Victoria.
Perhaps some diversionary programs could be suggested by members of
this list.
In any case, if one is thinking along the lines of lobbying to
increase controls on such activities then an education program would
be required to have been tried and failed in order to persuade
Government that greater action is needed. After all they "bottle dig
and they vote" and they can also climb up trees and starve in
protest.
Iain
Jeannette Hope
The interesting thing is that the pilfering of Aboriginal objects has all
but stopped. It's a combination of reasons: it's explicit illegal - even
just to collect isolated surface items (cf your comment on odd bottles lying
on the surface v. ripping up hotel dumps), there's been wide education, and
probably most importantly, you can no longer sell the material (without
being prosecuted) so there's no market. As long as bottles are worth money
(in some cases, lots of money) and there's no will to prosecute people
destroying sites to get at them, it will be impossible to change things.
Jeannette
Gaye Nayton
the register and not covered under the town planning scheme of a council who
happens to care then it open slather.
Gaye
-----Original Message-----
From: oza...@googlegroups.com [mailto:oza...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of
Shaun Canning
Sent: Thursday, 4 February 2010 4:36 AM
To: oza...@googlegroups.com
Cc: oza...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: {OzArch} Aussie Bottle Digger
It's still illegal John, regardless.
Dr Shaun Canning
General Manager
Australian Cultural Heritage Management (Vic) Pty Ltd
0400 204536
On 04/02/2010, at 1:51 AM, "John" <john...@ozemail.com.au> wrote:
>
>
>
> Hello,
>
>
> As a geologist I have one of two old blue'd or violet bottles from
> old mine
> sites. Nothing much.
>
> However I'd like to mention the case of "prospectors".
>
> These people study the historical records .. that's how they find
> out where
> the old mines were.
>
> PLUS, in most old mine settlements that have now vanished there was
> usually
> a hotel.
>
> Some gold prospectors, as a side-line, have made a practice of
> finding out
> where the old hotel had stood. They'd then go there and find it's old
> bottle heap, excavate that and maybe get a haul of bottles they cold
> sell.
>
> At some places (I think it might have been at Mt Costigan or somewhere
> around there) I've seen then with maybe a hundred or more decent
> intact
> bottles they'd dug out of an old glass heap .. the vast majority of
> which
> would be broken glass.
>
> I'd suspect this is largely a thing of the past by now, with not too
> many
> vanished hotel sites still left unlocated and dug by such persons.
>
> Also when I was young there was a suburban site that was very well
> know ..
> known to us kids anyway.
>
> It is on the western canal (Hawthorne Canal) flank just north of where
> Grosvenor Street goes under the western railway line, at Summer Hill.
>
> Possibly Ashfield Council dumped municipal wastes there once?
>
> The site was formerly infested with rubbishy plant growth and the
> bottle
> prospectors had shallow diggings in amongst that. These diggings
> were just
> shallow .. the deepest being trench-like but not proceeding
> 'underground' :-)
>
> I could never see any decent bottles there myself (and only ever
> went there
> maybe two or three times) but other kids assured me that plenty of
> good
> ones had been obtained there in the past. Parents would probably
> not have
> been told of excursions to this place, as being 'derelict' it was
> considered a somewhat mysterious or dangerous place, off limits or a
> bit
> like swimming in brick pit ponds - which was also frowned upon.
>
> Who knows? Kids also used to say that chemist shops paid good money
> for
> the wings of black princes and that was a myth.
>
> Today that area is all cleaned up and landscaped and has a sign
> saying, I
> think, 'Wangal Reserve' .. just from memory. In the past it had no
> local
> indigenous connections known at all, prior to that quite recent
> signage.
>
> That's the only site I know about around Sydney that was dug for
> bottles -
> even though there must have been very many tip sites.
>
> Along the upper Cooks River there's lots of emplaced fill - this
> doesn't
> have any noticeable bottle content but in it is not infrequently seen
> fragments of light-coloured yellowish bricks that are quite soft. I'd
> suspect that a lot of very early old modest houses, demolished,
> ended up
> there ... assuming this sort of (likely hand moulded?) soft or low-
> fired
> bricks well predate the harder machine pressed shale ones.
>
> Cheers,
>
>
>
>
> John
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
> At 09:17 PM 2/02/2010 -0800, you wrote:
>
>> They are probably old pictures, but I was wondering if any list
>> members can recognise where some of the photos on the Aussie Bottle
>> Digger Web site
>
>> http://members.optusnet.com.au/myky/abcv/digging.htm
>
>> might have come from.
>
>> some look like they are in back yards, but I recall Iain Stuart (I
>> think) once talking about an adit being dug under the railway
>> embankment at West Melbourne tracing the old Batman's Swamp Tip site.
>
>> Of course if you recognise any of the diggers (those without their
>> faces obscured) then you might be obliged to pass on the information
>> to the appropriate enforcement body.
>
>> all the best
>
>> Gary Vines
>
>> --
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>> For more options, visit this group at
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>
>
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Gaye Nayton
They have to installed fences and guards to keep the bottle hunters out.
Gaye Nayton
-----Original Message-----
From: oza...@googlegroups.com [mailto:oza...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of
Elspeth
Sent: Thursday, 4 February 2010 7:59 AM
To: OzArch
Subject: Re: {OzArch} Aussie Bottle Digger
Elspeth Mackenzie
--
John Pickard
While I applaud the current lack of stealing of aboriginal objects, my
cynicism suggests that illegality is irrelevant. Just because you can't sell
something without a permit never stops illegal trade if there is enough
money involved, even if there is a will to prosecute. Have a look at the
illegal drug market. Or the illegal export of Oz animals. Or the illegal
import of animals (especially aquarium fish) into Oz.
Despite my earlier comments re education, I think that Iain Stuart is right
about getting the message through to collectors. Maybe the combined state
heritage offices should consider taking out full page ads in the bottle
collectors' newsletters explaining that bottle collecting may be illegal.
Given the low circulation of these newsletters, such an ad or ads would be
quite inexpensive (and the odd $200 would probably be welcomed by the
editors of the newsletters), and would certainly reach most of the
collectors. It would also be an opportunity to explain why it is illegal,
and how it can bugger up archaeological investigations.
Cheers, John
John Pickard
john.p...@bigpond.com
Gaye Nayton
tell them to do just that. In WA the Balla Balla Inn was on marshy ground so
the enterprising owner/builder turned his empty bottles upside down and used
them to create a floor for the pub. A bottle hunter came along dug up the
whole floor took two bottles and smashed the rest. They have also
removed/smashed all the upturned bottles used to edge garden beds in Cossack
as well as creating a landscape of holes with rims of smashed glass through
the town.
Gaye
Gaye Nayton
registered in practice the archaeology is rarely safe. The Heritage Council
approve over a 1000 development approvals on registered places every year.
Be lucky if two or three were required to consider the archaeology even
though the Act covers archaeological heritage.
I keep moaning about it (as in SHA paper last year and letters to minster
etc) but to date that has had little affect except to get HCWA irritated
with me. They have been some changes with senior management in HCWA
recently. I remain ever hopefully that things will improve.
Gaye
-----Original Message-----
From: oza...@googlegroups.com [mailto:oza...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of
Steve Corsini
Sent: Thursday, 4 February 2010 2:29 PM
To: oza...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: {OzArch} Aussie Bottle Digger
--
John
Hello,
Instead of all the usual rigamarole with suggesting "heritage values" for
sites, and waiting for listings .. if ever ... and then having no change in
effective protection anyway .. why not think of doing something entirely
different and more action-orientated.
A low cost measure for relatively compact sites like old (vanished) country
pub bottle dumps might be to cover them with a thin dirt layer then a layer
of 6" concrete or bitumen.
Together with a durable brass or plastic-encased sign saying why NOT to dig
there.
Sure this would not stop the determined kanga-drill equipped individual.
But it would clearly state it was the wrong thing to do .. and say this is
socially unacceptable.
Then they would be digging at their own risk .. plus could hardly plead
ignorance.
Just an idea.
And if the government says it has little or no money to protect the past,
I'd even volunteer to contact the concrete companies and talk then into
giving a few loads of concrete for nix - all for a good cause.
Or is this just another silly idea?
Cheers,
John
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
John
At 10:54 AM 6/02/2010 +1100, John Pickard wrote:
<snip>
> How about some research into the private collections of heritage
professionals? And I don't mean the miscellaneous boxes of stuff collected
with permits, I mean the items picked up because they were interesting in
some way, but were never intended for formal use in some analysis or
report. What used to be called "souveniring". Now that would be
interesting. I suspect that many of us have smaller or larger collections
that, with hindsight, we feel somewhat embarrassed about.
Hello,
What about private collections in general - has there been attempts, or
proposals, for any directories of private collections?
When I worked at a museum we knew personally of people with quite
significant or extensive mineral and fossil collections (as they would
often bring in items for help with identification).
And at that time there were directories of public collections.
But I don't recall ever seeing any directory of private collections in NSW
or elsewhere in Ausrtralia.
I certainly have some material (fossils in small amount) which I'd be
delighted for others to know about, or if anyone wanted to work on things I
think are very significant. In North American there are certain avenues
which do likely facilitate professionals, specialists in this or that,
being able to readily know about what the 'amateurs' might be holding. But
I have not seen the equivalent in Australia.
Cheers,
John
John Pickard
Good idea, but (there's always a "but") as you say, it won't stop the morons
with kango hammers. I've seen locked gates made of full-size railway line
cut off with an oxy torch so that some 4WD d**khead could drive an extra 1
km along a closed track. If people are so keen to do this sort of thing, it
is next to impossible to stop them. As for a plaque, hey, it makes a nice
souvenir!
I think it is worth going back to what I said earlier. We ALL know that
speeding is illegal, we ALL know that drink-driving is illegal, yet people
speed and drive while > 0.05 all the time. I don't see that any sign to
prick bottle looters' consciences are going to make much difference. It
really is an almost intractable problem, and it's only exacerbated because
of the remote locations (or at least out of public gaze) of most bottle
heaps. There's been enough posts on this thread about looters illegally
going onto city and suburban excavations to show that these people are not
deterred by very much.
I'm not sure where this leaves us. But I still think that Iain's suggestion
of education might work to maybe slow it down a bit.
Cheers, John
John Pickard
john.p...@bigpond.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "John" <john...@ozemail.com.au>
To: <oza...@googlegroups.com>
John Pickard
Great idea, and I'd be more than happy to register my research collection of
fence posts, droppers, wire, books, reprints, database of 5000 sites, sundry
bits and bobs, plus a zillion images. Where do I sign up? Seriously, it is a
good idea. Sure there may be privacy concerns, but that's easy to deal with.
Back to my fence collection, I want it to end up in public ownership, not
because I have an ego problem (which I do), but because I have spent 15 y
accumulating the stuff with research in mind, not just collecting yet
another yocto-variant on some patent like the obsessed barbed wire
collectors in the USA. Thus all of my stuff has context that was recorded at
the time. In my experience, a lot of private collections are skimpy on what
museums etc consider essential details: exact locations, dates, etc. This
lack of info degrades the value of material.
The most complete fencing collection in Oz is the Bob Dobbins collection now
on permanent display at the NT SA Koppio Museum, north of Port Lincoln. It's
a superb collection, but it is just a collection of objects, there is very
little info on where and when they were collected, or the structure etc of
the fences that they came from. Pity. But it is a great collection, and the
museum is well worth a visit if you are near Koppio.
Those of us who watch Collectors on ABC TV will all have seen extensive
collections where the sole objective is to collect every variant of some
"thing", be it beer cans, ceramic figures, or underpants (joking!). But I
rarely see that any of the collectors actually look beyond the objects to
consider what they tell us about society. I guess it is a difference of
perspective, but to me, a collection of objects without context is just a
truck load of potential landfill. But it obviously gives many people great
pleasure to collect and display things. Even to the point of obsession.
Thinking about ABC Collectors prompts a thought: has anyone from any state
or federal heritage office ever been on Collectors to explain legislation
and the impact of looting (of any objects) from sites? I think that the
right person could get an important message right where we want it, directly
to the collectors.
QUESTION: how many of you with the odd souvenir have ever returned them to
either the site, or the rightful owner (be it TO, farmer, etc)? I confess to
having done that with some, including a wonderful vernacular sundial I found
in a paddock near Wilcannia. The dial actually should be in a museum, but
that would have removed it from context, so after I had photographed and
analysed it (and written a paper about it), I returned it to the landholder.
But I still have other items (probably not so valuable in a cultural sense)
that I haven't returned, and I know where they will end up when I die,
unless I return them.
Cheers, John
John Pickard
john.p...@bigpond.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "John" <john...@ozemail.com.au>
To: <oza...@googlegroups.com>
David Bayliss
messages (I do however, still have a few to read).
I agree that the issues of theft, trespass, health/safety/security and
education need to be addressed.
A lot of what is written-/spoken-about appears to be from secondary
sources, so I would like to comment on first-hand experience with
collecting bottles in Cooktown (Far North Qld) during the early 1970s:
Most of the damage between 1970 (the opening of the James Cook
Historical Museum [JCHM]) and 1980 was effected by a small group of
local residents. The "Americans" (mainly Debbie G. and Geoff G.) were
interested in collecting bottles in order to "preserve the history of
the area" (there were also a few other Americans (in this case they were
wives of local residents, and from memory one was a local miner's wife;
the other was the wife of a fly-in/fly-out deep-sea diver - I can not
recall their names) - to my knowledge, the bottles collected by all that
I have mentioned were from random surface scatters and from previously
back-hoed excavation sites. Their "findings" were taken to Norman
Innes-Will (the then curator of the JCHM: 1970-c1985). Up until 1979
(when I left town) there were many surface-scatter sites (there probably
still are many) however the deep-sea diver's wife did reside at the site
of the 8-mile Hotel along the Palmer Road towards Hamilton so she
collected a lot of beer and wine bottles that became garden-bed
delineation markers. I could probably still walk to the majority of
sites around Cooktown (and along the Palmer Track) using land-marks, but
I do not recall any of the sites being grid-referenced. The back-hoe
diggings were INTENTIONAL bottle-collecting activities, predominantly
down at Ticlebelly Flats (the old 1870s-1880s tidal dump site) by a
small group of local machinery operators. The PMG/Telecom Line Crew
were also actively collecting bottles HOWEVER, their bottles (and other
items) were taken from sanctioned post- and trench- excavations
necessary for the communications system - ALMOST ALL of their takings
are unrecorded but often bragged-about.
Many of the locals collected bottles from their own yards, however a few
of the local boys (myself included) actively went collecting bottles
from where the backhoe operators had been (they often "missed" bottles
and other artefacts in their "bulk" excavation technique). Bottles and
other artefacts collected by "the boys" in this manner were presented to
Norm Innes-Will, and if the JCHM already had two examples then the
artefacts were kept by the boys. This was a
standard-operating-procedure promoted by Norm during discussions and
presentations at the local school (at that time we only had a primary
school).
Many of the bottles collected for JCHM but not accessioned due to
duplication were re-deposited at the site opposite the Primary School in
Furneaux Street for future re-'discovery'. I know that two of the
redeposit sites has since been built-over with the local Ice-Works sheds
(cement slabs) during the early 1980s as I visited the town annually
until 1983.
Perhaps an education program aimed at school-kids (and their parents)
could be a start in addressing the issues (possibly during NAW). If it
would be of benefit I could find the time to raise an informational
pilot-program.
By the way:
If somebody hasn't already mentioned it . . . There is a Facebook Site
dedicated to bottle-collecting (just did a search and found it).
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
http://www.facebook.com/search/?q=bottle+collecting&init=quick#!/group.p
hp?gid=56638453402&ref=search&sid=665025935.2069507219..1
ANTIQUE BOTTLE COLLECTING
SHARE ABOUT COLLECTIONS OF ANTIQUE BOTTLES AND INFORMATION WITH REGARDS
TO THE HOBBY SUCH AS DIGGINGS AND SITES......
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
The facebook site is based in South Africa, but has a number of
Australian subscribers.
Regards,
David Bayliss
Queensland
John
Hi John,
Exactly!
All sorts of people have stuff relating to the past.
I know a man who has an immense collection, done over a lifetime, of photos
of Aboriginal carvings.
Re "Back to my fence collection", I didn't know that anybody collected
fences!?
I've just today got a fencer working here at my place putting up a new
fence. The remains of the old one (hardwood palings) have been placed out
on the front footpath .. much hoping that somebody will 'collect it',
otherwise it will have to be paid for to be taken away. I wonder what
becomes of old fences like this .. must be millions of palings involved ..
I'll try to remember to ask the fencer that question.
Re fossils and minerals it's very true that a lot of private collections
may be skimpy on details, which makes things undesirable for museums. But
also the number of museums and fossil workers seems to be diminishing. I'd
like to get some ?Permian fossil wood identified as such (i.e. that it
really is Permian). I was able to find only ONE fossil worker on fossil
trees in Australia, at Queensland Uni, but sadly he got a job overseas and
sailed or flew off. Since then I have found no other. The magnificent
fossil collection at Sydney Uni, one of the best in Australia, got to the
stage that the Uni no longer even wanted it .. hadn't the staff or
willpower to any longer maintain it, so gave it away. Other unis have done
the same thing. The also gave away the idea of having a separate geology
department and the once custom-built Geology Building. So they knocked
down the Geology Building to reuse the land for something more payable like
Law or Commerce. The historic rocks collections of generations of
students, and old research collections of staff, were not salvaged as much
of that would have taken a 'lot of work' and they didn't have the
resources. So stacks
and stacks of collections drawers were just left there for building
demolition to come down on and get to the tip that way.
That's been the sad fate of 'once proud' uni collections. So
realistically, with diminished/diminishing interest in collections (the
Australian Collections Council is being abolished too) who, I fear, is
going to want private collections ... sigh!?
And what about all those "sheds and sheds" all over NSW filled with
assorted archaeo stuff that Ms Stone told me "nobody wants"? It's been
suggested to me since that this is quite wrong, that people do want all
this .. nevertheless she did say it and she's a ?high official in the
Planning Department so that is CLEARLY, it would seem to me, a "perception"
at least within Planning that nobody wants the stuff.
I know little about fencing, or bottles, but (although not a collector of
bricks myself) I do follow with considerable interest the doings of
collectors of old bricks. Some have very nice collections and have done
excellent deeds in saving old bricks from oblivion and trying to work out
who made them and all that sort of thing.
I would imagine all those collections of old bricks are 'unprotected'.
I think an old bricks collection is far more preferrable than an old
underpants collection .. but still, who's likely to take such over if the
original collectors fold up or die?
If there was a directory of private collections then planners (if they
could be interested in such?) could calculate what the future storage needs
would be .. and figure out other logistics more proactively .. or so one
might hope?
Cheers,
John Byrnes
~~~
Gaye Nayton
However did you know you could nominate the sites you come across for HCWA
listing. HCWA works strictly on a nomination basis and anyone can nominate a
site for listing. There is a form to fill in but you don't have to know
heaps about the place to nominate it, just enough to avoid it being
dismissed as insignificant without further investigation. Once nominated
HCWA protection can be invoked (for what it is worth). It is important if
you feel the site is threatened to put that in the form as the Act does have
protection provisions which can be enforced prior to it being assessed and
listed (which can take years).
Please any of you prehistorians and maritime archaeologists out there. If
you find historic sites during the course of your work that you feel should
be protected and you have the time and inclination and it does not breach
client confidentiality please grab a form from the HCWA web site and send it
in. There are only five or six historical archaeologists in all of WA. We
could really do with the help. While the two Uni based lecturers can
theoretically cast their nets across all of WA they are as constrained by
funding to certain areas/sites as contract archaeologists. We just don't
cover the whole state. For example in twenty years I have never had a
contract to look at any mining sites in the goldfields although I did assess
a mining field in the Murchison for heritage listing after someone else
nominated it. I know these sites are out there and threatened just as I know
the former timber town sites in the forests are under severe threat from
Forestry Commission and DEC management practices (one grades the town sites
for BBQ areas and the other deep ploughs to 1 metre to removed weed
vegetation and replant) but no one will send me out there to inspect and
nominate).
Gaye
-----Original Message-----
From: oza...@googlegroups.com [mailto:oza...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of
Ben Fordyce
Sent: Thursday, 4 February 2010 2:48 PM
To: oza...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: {OzArch} Aussie Bottle Digger
David Hunter
(Quote):
Re fossils and minerals it's very true that a lot of private
collections
may be skimpy on details, which makes things undesirable for
museums. But
also the number of museums and fossil workers seems to be
diminishing. I'd
like to get some ?Permian fossil wood identified as such (i.e. that
it
really is Permian). I was able to find only ONE fossil worker on
fossil
trees in Australia, at Queensland Uni, but sadly he got a job
overseas and
sailed or flew off. Since then I have found no other.
La Trobe (as of last year) (Melbourne) has a large collection of rocks taken
from across Australia. I think the 'Environmental Geoscience' Dept. is being
scaled down this year (it's looking like the Uni are planning on closing the
department altogether - a real pity). The head of the department, Dr John
Webb, would be worth contacting in regards to your Permian wood fossil
sample. John's email address is John...@latrobe.edu.au.
I hope he can help.
Cheers,
Dave.
David Hunter | Director
Hunter Geophysics
Mob.: (+61) 0488 501 261
211 Burke Road | Glen Iris, VIC 3146 | Australia
http://huntergeophysics.eb2a.com
-----Original Message-----
From: oza...@googlegroups.com [mailto:oza...@googlegroups.com]On Behalf
Of John
Sent: Monday, 8 February 2010 10:58 AM
To: oza...@googlegroups.com
Hi John,
Exactly!
Cheers,
John Byrnes
~~~
>Hi John,
>Cheers, John
>John Pickard
>john.p...@bigpond.com
Ben Fordyce
How about burying landmines in the bottle dumps..? Doesn't help much
with maintaing site integrity, but could prove to be very satisfying...
Ben Fordyce
-----Original Message-----
From: oza...@googlegroups.com [mailto:oza...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of John Pickard
Sent: Sunday, 7 February 2010 7:23 AM
To: OzArch
Hi John,
Cheers, John
John Pickard
john.p...@bigpond.com
--
Ben Fordyce
Have submitted forms for a couple of historical sites we've come across and even gotten a mining company to avoid a stone faced well as part of their management plan (ahh the thrill of minor victories)...
You're right about it being easy to do, particularly when all it takes is a couple of extra snaps on the digital camera and a bit of a site description. Just have to make the effort to look beyond the stones and bones and include the garden gnomes...
Actually, I have a few questions for you that I'll contact you off list about (not regarding garden gnomes)..
Gaye
John
Hello,
That might harm the bottles.
When the mines explode.
Cheers,
John
At 11:49 AM 8/02/2010 +0800, you wrote:
>
>
>How about burying landmines in the bottle dumps..? Doesn't help much
>with maintaing site integrity, but could prove to be very satisfying...
>
>Ben Fordyce
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: oza...@googlegroups.com [mailto:oza...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
>Of John Pickard
>Sent: Sunday, 7 February 2010 7:23 AM
>To: OzArch
Brand...@dpcd.vic.gov.au
Hi Everyone
I thought I might add to the discussion regarding steps Heritage Victoria has taken regarding bottle collecting.
Heritage Victoria recently created the attached regarding bottle collecting in Victoria (also available on our website at www.heritage.vic.gov.au). In addition HV is conducting projects with the aim of raising awareness of the Victorian Heritage Act and historical archaeology, amongst local government, State government agencies who regularly encounter archaeological sites, and the general community.
As others have discussed on OzArch, Heritage Victoria has undertaken a number of successful prosecutions relating to the disturbance of archaeological site and relics. As Iain stated we are reliant on evidence that can:
- identify the offender
- identify that the site was disturbed and items were interfered with
- prove that the items are 'archaeological relics', and not something purchased at a trash and treasure sale
- prove when the offence took place (there are limitation periods when a prosecution can take place)
- prove that the offender knew he was interfering (or was negligent) with or damaging an archaeological relic
Whilst photographs may show an image of a person holding what appears to be an archaeological relic having just been dug out of an archaeological site we must still prove all of the elements above. Heritage Victoria has an enforcement officer that can then investigate the situation.
Regards
Brandi Bugh | Archaeologist
Heritage Victoria
Department of Planning and Community Development
Level 4, 55 Collins Street, Melbourne, Vic 3000
www.dpcd.vic.gov.au
________________________________________________________
T: 03 8644 8901| F: 03 8644 8811 | brand...@dpcd.vic.gov.au
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John
Hee hee,
Wonderful stories, thanks Jeanette.
Love the one about Lennox Bridge.
Cheers,
John Byrnes
~~~~~~~~~~~
At 03:46 PM 4/02/2010 +1100, Jeanette wrote:
>There are a number of reasons why property, railway and other buildings are
>demolished in the west - to be fair, sometimes it's for safety reasons.
>
>There's also a lot of recycling of material and / or whole buildings or
>structures and that's been going on for a long time (19C) - I've been
>compiling a list of examples, ranging from a pub that moved three times,
>material from another old pub used to build a house, many houses moved
>around, 19C telegraph pole now used as TV aerial, stone ruins recycled for
>road culvert building material, railway lines cut up for fence posts and so
>on.
>
>Sometimes it's just bloody-mindedness - where an unused landmark building is
>bulldozed by the owner in spite of (because of?) local sentiment and
>affection for it.
>
>Sometimes it's just 'higher priorities'. When the Silverton Tramway
>(railway) closed in 1969, it's said that the owners offered the Australian
>Army the opportunity to blow up all the bridges for training practice - I
>haven't confirmed this, but the bridges are in fact destroyed.
>
>Sometimes it's twisted logic - when I worked in Bass Strait a long time ago,
>there was a proposal to demolish a lot of lighthouse support buildings 'to
>protect them from vandalism'. And my favourite was a proposal from NSW RTA
>in ca 1990 to demolish the old stone Lennox Bridge at Parramatta (because it
>acted like a dam on the river and aggravated flooding of underground
>carparks, basements etc.). Their presentation to the Heritage Council stated
>that they knew the building was historically important, and they'd read the
>Burra Charter, where they'd learnt that relocating heritage items was
>frowned on. So when they demolished the bridge, they promised, cross their
>hearts, that they wouldn't rebuild it somewhere out of place, they'd just
>throw the pieces away. HC members nearly had a fit and the demolition never
>happened. Now the bridge is listed on the RTA heritage register, see
>http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/cgi-bin/index.cgi?action=heritage.show&id=4300301.
>
>
>Jeannette
Gaye Nayton
and people are asking me as I am bugging them to plan events.
Gaye
Gaye
-----Original Message-----
From: oza...@googlegroups.com [mailto:oza...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of
Ben Fordyce
Sent: Thursday, 4 February 2010 2:48 PM
To: oza...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: {OzArch} Aussie Bottle Digger
John Tunn
John Tunn
Manager - Indigenous Cultural Landscapes
Parks Victoria
jt...@parks.vic.gov.au
T: 9488 3937 M: 0437 688 303 F: 9619 0716
Gaye
Gaye
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Gaye Nayton
Gaye Nayton
which lets them apply for funding as a not for profit heritage group? Not
sure how everyone else goes but we never have any funding to run NAW in the
west but it is eligible for Lotterywest funding as a heritage week just the
committee wasn't set up in the right way to apply.
Gaye Nayton
Does anyone have contact details for Jane Fyfe, Alistair says she is the person to contact for ArcSoc these days.
Gaye