Scoreboard based on sinclair

[Gal Singer]

Hi, 

What are my options if I need to manage a competition based on Sinclair with owlcms4?

AFAIK, the `Top Sinclair` view getting updated only once we have a good lift. 

I think we need a custom scoreboard that reflects the Sinclair ranks. Do you have any idea what we can do? how hard is it to implement?

Thanks!

[Jean-François Lamy]

Well, until you have at least one good lift, you don't have a Sinclair.  It does show "tentative" Sinclair even with only one snatch.

The top Sinclair board was meant to show the "best lifter" across all groups, as it is a frequent feature to give such an award at the end of a meet.

So that's why it does not show all lifters.

There is a request on the project board to add Sinclair to the group scoreboard.

Please tell me more about what you mean by a "Sinclair-based competition".  Would you have a single, open category with all bodyweights together and only use the

Sinclair as the ranking (or the SMF, or the Robi, or whatever formula)?  People would be assigned to groups according to their requested starting total, or something similar?

Or would you keep the bodyweight categories, but not actually use them for medals?

I am also trying to figure out how people run team competitions. I understand how France and the Netherlands do it. 

I would need someone to send me a version of the Bundesliga rules - what formula is used, are there mixed teams, etc.

[Gal Singer]

Well, this is unusual competition.

We are running the 'maccabiah ' competition with two groups, based on gender only.

The top 3 in Sinclair wins in each gender.

The most important for us is to show the top Sinclair results per gender with the scoreboard.

If we could show the scoreboard lifts with the Sinclair together for each athlete it could be awesome.

[Gal Singer]

Now that I think about that it may be worth mentioning that in the end, we have only one group. We have two competitions per day, one day for women and one for men. 

[Jean-François Lamy]

How many people in each group on each day?   Currently the scoreboard is setup for a max of 20.  But as I understand things, if you had the Top Sinclair display, you could run as many groups as you want, and use Top Sinclair see who is top 3, including how many kg needed to catch up to next lifter up the  ladder.

[Gal Singer]

In the 'Maccabiah' we have 44 Athletes. 22 men, and 22 women. we will run each group with 11 athletes. 

We wanted to make 4 groups - two groups of men and two groups of women, first group will be the `group B` ranks and then `group A`.

We wanted to create two categories - open women and open men, with no separation of bodyweight categories (only <0).

We thought that if the scoreboard shows athletes that assigned to a group with no bodyweight categories - we should show the Sinclair of the lift in the same cell of the weight (or, another column that shows the total Sinclair of the athlete).

For now, we thought about creating these two groups as I said, and streaming the 'Scoreboard' page on one screen with the 'Top Sinclair' page, without the visibility of the athlete how much Sinclair he has (if he is not in the top 5).

To find the top countries (each country has 1 man and 1 woman) we will create Team Membership per country. 

We have the competition on 19.7, but if you can think about something better - I will be happy to know.

[Jean-François Lamy]

I have added a technical way to show the Sinclair on the scoreboards in the prerelease version beta05.  You would need to change two lines in the local/styles/results.css file.  Contact me directly by e-mail if you get stuck.

[Gal Singer]

Ill check it in the evening,  thanks!

What should I do in remote scoreboard? Do I have a way to edit this in heroku?

[Jean-François Lamy]

Using the same style sheets on the publicresults remote side is a todo on my planning board. 

Not likely to be done before the 19 though (I need to add a negotiation between the master and the remote to synchronize the stylesheets, as the remote is lightweight and not meant to have any persistent storage)

[Gal Singer]

Do you mean that I need to edit something in the beta05 in order to show the Sinclair? If so, what should I change?

And this beta expected to be release soon? And if so, would I still be needed to change this css files manually?

[Jean-François Lamy]

The pre-releases are in this github repository https://github.com/owlcms/owlcms4-prerelease

The actual pre-releases are on this page https://github.com/owlcms/owlcms4-prerelease/releases

The pre-releases of the alpha level are "work in progress".  They are used when someone is directly interested in a new feature.

The beta level usually means that the new features are basically done, and are being tested.  The translators use these releases.

The rc (release candidate) releases are, in theory, done.  If you test them and they work for you, you can use them in a meet.

There is always a rc release just before a production release is published.

The fix in beta05 (and later) involves changing two lines in a file called a CSS stylesheet.  The change is described in the release notes for the beta releases.

[Gal Singer]

I just tried to enable the Sinclair changes in the CSS and it worked. 

Do you think that it be possible to make the rank system to calculate the ranks against Sinclair instead of weighted lifts in case of no bodyweights in the category? both in the scoreboard + leaders.

And if so, how much time will it take?

attaching example

[Jean-François Lamy]

Currently the rank is the total rank.  I will see if I can add the Sinclair Rank and do the same kind of trick to hide the normal total.

But NO PROMISES.

You can already hide the Snatch and Clean&Jerk totals by going to the competition settings.

Question: how do you type the athlete names ?  Do you actually type them in your normal right-to-left order or you have to compensate and type them in the left-to-right way ?

[Gal Singer]

1. If you could do that it could be great! thanks so much ahead :D

2. I'll check this out as well.

The athlete names came from the registration file. for example in this picture, the red word represents the first name and the blue one represents the last name.

But since most of the applications doesn't really support RTL, and in Hebrew its very easy to understand what is the last name VS first name, its totally fine.

[Jean-François Lamy]

In version beta08 you can now show the Sinclair rank at the end of the scoreboard, and hide the normal "total" rank.

This is still done by editing the results.css style sheet. 

That's likely the last thing I do in the 4.33 release.

 

[Gal Singer]

I'll check this out now! Thank you so much! :D

[Gal Singer]

To hide the `Rank` of the `Snatch` and `Clean&Jerk` I edited it in the general parameters CSS section and it worked (on `--rankWidth` and `--rankVisibility` in `table.results` ). 

I think it's less confusing like that when we are running a Sinclair-based competition. 

WDYT about moving this in the future to the config section as well?

[Gal Singer]

I just saw that the Leaders table is still ordered and controlled with the Total rank and not the Sinclair rank, is it possible to change it as well?

[Jean-François Lamy]

Well, count your blessings.  See beta09.  I added a feature switch to enable a "sinclair meet", with the sinclair leader board.  Not yet in the normal interface because I need to figure out the different usage scenarios for Sinclair and other point systems.

[Gal Singer]

Just tried it now in my local and it's working great, thanks!

1. Can we add the `Kg Needed` and `B.W.` columns like in the `Top Sinclair` view?

2. Is this going to be reflected in the remote scoreboard as well? I didn't check it yet. 

3. Where I can find all the `Feature Toggles` that can be enabled?

[Jean-François Lamy]

1. I'd rather not.  The top and bottom part need to be the same in the current design.  So currently there is the other scoreboard for that.

2. Remote scoreboard style/content synchronization is on the to do list.  Not done.

3. They come and go as features stabilize and get incorporated. Only SinclairMeet right now.

[jg 275]

In the German Bundesliga athletes are assigned a correction/handicap value based on bodyweight and gender. This value is subtracted from both their best snatch and best c&j (min 0 ) and their score is the sum of the results.

The values are given in the attached table.

The advantage of this system is that an increase of N kilos in a lift results in an increase of N kilos in your score, which makes it easier for athletes and spectators alike to follow the competition.

The disadvantage is that the formula is "tuned" to lifters of a specific calibre. Teams with even one weaker athlete are at a big disadvantage.

[Jean-François Lamy]

Interesting.  Does anyone have the competition format for the Bundesliga ?  Is it always one-on-one or are there 3 or more teams lifting in the same event ?

In the French Ligue des Clubs, there are 3-way meets.  And in some regions, the teams are mixed.  Does the Bundesliga have mixed team meets as well ?

Are there similar meets with mixed teams in other countries ?  For example, in the Netherlands they use % of European standard, so even a mixed team works, as long as there are the same number of each gender in each team.

IWF is still pushing Robi (same comment as above for number of athletes per gender).

My college German goes back 42 years, but Google translate can do wonders.  Any pointers to team leagues is useful to me to figure out how I could support them.

jfl

[jg 275]

The Bundesliga website is here: https://german-weightlifting.de/bundesliga/

I believe it is teams of 6, definitely mixed gender, but inot a fixed number of each gender. Substitutions are allowed (perhaps for injury, maybe strategy?) - it looks like they happen between Snatch an C&J.

Matches are typically one-on-one, two sessions, using the round system. Not sure how they divide up the sessions. It would make sense to have 3 from each team in each session but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ .

Teams are awarded 1 point for having the highest cumulative score in each of Snatch, C&J, and Total.

League standings are based on these points.

The league championship final, on the other hand, includes 3 teams, and there are 3 sessions.

It is a very cool format, and very spectator friendly.

We ran a league in Nova Scotia for one season. It was similar to this format except scoring was based on the Canadian Marker system. The web site is still live - http://nswl.ca/home/

It seems like Robi would not work very well for a team competition, since it is non-linear. One athlete who is near world record weights could outscore an entire team of lesser lifters