Sabbat Coord Talks: Friends OOC, Enemies IC- Why we need to be better about being our friends' enemies.
Sabbat Coordinator
(GDoc Link to the below for those who have trouble reading emails directly: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1btp_lFKk_xFJ2m8V2j0cma1sY789tmHBfr0Ct-y18C0/edit?usp=sharing ) I will begin this message, like all my messages (RE: More message incoming!), by saying that the below is the opinion of me, and me alone. And who am I you might ask? At the end of the day, I am just a player like you. But currently, I am the Sabbat Coord. I was elected (by a slim margin this time!) to both lead and enforce genre within One World By Night as far as The Sabbat are concerned.
The Sabbat represents a large number of our active players in the Org. Last most recent survey counted somewhere around 100 active and unique players and I know it's functionally more than that. And while the struggles facing all of the Sects/Genres are different in their own way, a lot of them are shockingly the same/similar just wearing a different mask.
So with that out of the way, I want to clarify that the below message is intended to be read in a conversational, not confrontational tone. I welcome positive discourse, constructive criticisms, and intentional dialogue.
At the end of all of this, you only have me for 2 years (or less if I like… really screw up) and at the end of that, someone else will get the chance to hop in the seat, and I remain forever excited about the future of The Sabbat and One World By Night. I ask that everyone take a peak at my automated signature, the tag line underneath is my true belief in what OWBN is and what makes it the best.
With all of that said, I please invite you to join me in the journey of my thoughts below, and ask that you engage with them fully. Take the time to read the whole thing please! And thanks!
Friends OOC, Enemies IC: Why we need to be better about being our friends' enemies
So this is a difficult topic, because honestly it's just hard to talk about and adopt but so very important to internalize. The org has taken a staunch turn away from CvC (Character vs Character) as a knee jerk or automated response. And yet, CvC remains a central conflict point in nearly all WoD based genres and games. It's inescapable, I would say nowhere more so than in Vampire Genre based games.
Lets face it, if you want status, the easiest thing is to usurp a character’s position, or out perform (or sabotage) another character. And while there is a never ending series of plots and stories to engage with when you have good ST’s and Coords providing story, the core story we all interact with more than any other is local politics. Be that a Sabbat Discoees, Pack Politics, Gang Rivalries, Domain Politics, or whatnot.
To me then, the real goal here isn’t to eliminate CvC as a thing in the Org. But it should be to reduce the instance of CvC coming out of nowhere and being a true shocking event, and instead, embracing CvC as the compelling conclusion or progress of our shared story with one another that we willfully engage in collaboratively. A natural result of how our actions lead to consequences, and sometimes… even conclusions.
What do I mean by that? Well… it means that Players (the people in control of their Characters) need to make sure they are acknowledging that CvC occurs as a natural course of the story we are all sharing. And that Players accept this, and work with each other to limit instances of CvC that don’t serve a purpose in progressing story, but also, working with each other to ensure CvC can and does occur (even to that Players’s characters detriment) when it is warranted and valid to the progression (and sometimes conclusion) of a story.
Now, how do we accomplish this? Well, it's a frank thing really. Part of it involves just being honest with each other on an OOC level. It means not employing CvC tactics on an OOC level. And it means accepting CvC related consequences for your character at an OOC level. I personally feel that a lot of ‘shade’ we experience around CvC is in part because players are worried if they reveal too much, the player of the character they are after will meta-game the knowledge of their immediate consequences, and alter their play to avoid those consequences. And… yeah there are a lot of instances of this happening over the years, but I would argue not more so than instances of players hiding their intentions to make sure that doesn’t happen.
It's a messy Catch-22 of “Well I am going to lie and obfuscate my intentions OOC to not tip them off IC.” and “Well this CvC scene has left me feeling very frustrated and hurt, because OOC I was told not to worry, or that everything was fine, or that nothing was going to happen…” And there is more to it than just those two sentences can give credit to, but I think those two sentences really capture my point.
We need to be better OOC at being each other's enemies IC. And we need to be more willing to accept IC consequences, from our OOC friends, and rolling with those punches or conclusions. This requires everyone, on all sides, to ensure that we are working towards consequences and conclusions that make sense, aren’t being done from an emotional place OOC, and are fair and even handed with an eye to the overall story we are all agreeing to share.
How do we manage this when play style, genre adherence, and power level can vary wildly across the Org itself?
Well, ST’s and Mediation can assist with this if players are having trouble coming to a conclusion. Genre and Clan Coords can help provide context for punishments, historical accuracy, and the goal of those groups in the current Org Meta. We should be using these resources to try and dispel stigma around sensible CvC and eliminate the backlash on an OOC level, as well as guiding players and STs back towards a more central and rational table, being kept and enforced by the Coordinators/Genre Keepers we as an org have voted into place.
None of this is intended to say “Hey, be cool about losing your Character.” But it is intended to open up dialogue about how we can be better about engaging in CvC to help limit the stigma and the potential bleed/pain around experiencing consequence or even losing a character to CvC. Or even opening up dialogue about how to alter or work within the confines of existing IC Law/Consequences, to not end stories before they need to end.
All of this leads me to a final adage. Something a player (Alex Faria, an amazing Role Player if ever I met one, who I have butted heads with more than a few times over the years, making me a better player for it) brought out nearly… good lord, 10 years ago or so. I have paraphrased a bit because this email is already rolling on, but I will leave you with his words, with some tweaks by me.
Thanks everyone, I appreciate you going on this particular journey with me. I hope it sparks some good discourse, and I welcome people to take this conversation back to your home games, your visiting games, your SubCoord teams, and more.
I will dive into some other topics here soon, but please enjoy Alex’s words below.
There are actually only 3 steps to Character death-
By Alex Faria
This came after a time when quite a few players lost high point characters and others lost lower point characters. Many people were upset about the Characters they lost. I myself perhaps unironically lost a high point character about a year later. It is, in some places, specific to what was going on at the time.
This seems topical around now, and with another event game looming, who knows what could happen. So here you go.
The Steps-
Step 1. Make a Character
Step 2. Do something, or do nothing, you have reached step 2 when
someone/something wants to kill your Character.
Step 3. TSomeone/something succeeded in killing your character.
There are many things that can prevent step 3 from occurring, very few
that can prevent step 2, and mostly you are playing a boring game if
you never make it to step 2.
Things can stand between you and death, Awe is one of these things, so
is a brawl or dodge retest, having points in lore could save your Character.
Vamp or seduction could save your Character, Knowing when to shut
up, knowing when to leave, knowing who not to fuck with. Some of
these things go on your sheet, many do not. If you reach step 3 you
are done either way.
It is a role playing game, you can't be the victor every time, but there are many
ways you can win. Play the same PC for a long time, win. Have great
role play, win. Meet your wife/partner at a game, win. Make lots
of great friends, win. Have great role play scenes that make your
pulse race, make you laugh or cry, win. Make Archon, win. NPC out at
7th gen, win. Tyler Durden says "On a long enough time line the
survival rate for everyone drops to zero."
If your PC died, you hit step 3, congrats, you can now start back at
step one and hope for some more small or even big wins, but you cannot hope to be the victor every time.
So not having Aegis, didn't kill your Character. Milk on Set, didn't kill
your Character. Being in the wrong place at the wrong time, didn't kill your
Character. Being quelled, allowing yourself to be staked, being sent to a
Justicar, Thaum, Potence, Seizure, Horrid reality, the sun, church
Hunters, They did not kill your Character, not by themselves.
Sure they were all factors, but what really happened is that you got
to step 3.
So go on, talk about the rules, I am in favor of that, I like balance,
I like a sense of fair play, though I one can never be truly fair in
this kind of game, it's just too complex. I am here to play, to have
small and big wins. I would love to get to be prince for a while, that would
be a small win for me, but I cannot deny the wisdom of Jack's sense of
impending doom (Fight Club). I do not have Thaum, I can be quelled and I can have
my aegis removed, but I can also run a city, or at least try to. I
can persecute your Character and I can make deals and alliances, I can
confess truths and spin lies and I will have small wins all the way to
step 3.
See you there,
Alex Faria
(Small adage from Matt here- When it's all over and you get to Step 3? Congratulations, you get to go back to Step 1. Let's tell some more great stories together folks, that's what we are here for!)
Sabbat Coord-Office Hours in EST as available-
Sabbat Coordinator
Sabbat Coord-Office Hours in EST as available-
Unpopular opinion: the problem is that we truly don't care about one another at all, as people.I have a whole series of discussions on that point. I considered turning it into a podcast, Uncle Brad's Fireside Chat or something, as I can explain how nearly every problem we have in this org circle back to the simple fact that we truly just don't care about our fellow players aside from our very close groupings. We're here for our own fun, not just first and foremost, but in many cases at all.And nowhere is that more evident than PvP. Yes, I'm going to continue calling it PvP and not CvC, again for the reason above. Because in order for it to be CvC, it must be entirely about the Characters. It must be a conflict that exists solely on an In-Character level, and we here in OWbN are not there yet. At the end of the day we don't care enough about our fellow players' enjoyment of the game to make conflict between our characters something we want to build with them as opposed to against them. If we did that, we might not win. We'd have to compromise, make the story about them as well as us, and make sure it's fun for everyone involved to play through, and that means our own characters would be less than 100% victorious.We don't do that.Most times, we don't even try, because it never occurs to us. Or because we just assume they'll take advantage of it. Oh, sure, we all have our reasons for it. I'm just as guilty of it as anyone else over the years, I won't pretend like I'm some icon of empathy. But all of the drama around PvP comes from one player having their fun entirely destroyed by people who, let us be perfectly honest, don't give a shit if that person has any fun at all. The mere fact that we're plotting in secret, against the player of a character so they're taken completely by surprise, all but demonstrates how high in our regard we are holding their enjoyment of our shared hobby.It will continue to be PvP until we collaborate with our fellow players to tell a story. Until we are making sure that everyone is enjoying what is happening, or at bare minimum least consenting to it and understanding of it. Only then when the Players are in on it together, will it truly be merely Character versus Character. And truly, if we're being honest, the only reason not to collaborate is because then our own characters might not 100% win. So it is us, as players, choosing our characters over our fellow players. Plain and simple.And I know, I know, everyone's going to have a story of That One Time that not gacking someone's character came back to bite you in the ass, or you got metagamed or something. But truly ask yourself if you were collaborating with another player for your PCs to have a conflict, or if you were instead thrusting a conflict on another player that they were not going to get any form of satisfaction out of. And I think the answer to that will tell you why a problem cropped up. Even consequences can be worked out, if you enter into it from the mindset of trying to make it interesting and engaging for the person on the receiving end.Sure, there are always things that should end in character death. Absolutely. The vast majority of those are very clear and obvious lines in the sand that folks should know full well not to cross. A life for a life is pretty standard in the World of Darkness. But we end up 'enforcing genre' to a far more punitive degree than we should, in so many cases. Because we enter into it with the goal of ensuring the receiving character cannot recover or revenge themselves, so that we win and they do not. Yet nearly every genre is written to be composed of people who compromise their ideals, whose loyalty is mere lip service, or who have their own skeletons in the closet. The very sorts who can and should be capable of not being a dyed in the wool fanatic at all times, and thus open to something less than total destruction as an option.It's a massive culture shift I'm talking about here. I know reactions to it will be visceral and negative. We have decades of punishing one another with PvP the way we've always done it, that moving to collaborative conflict will seem like heresy to many. But we also have decades of bleeding players as folks have their enjoyment crushed, and choose to just walk away. The Org is not truly in a state of growth right now, overall, and its high time we start thinking about what we can change.In the end, the best way to be a Good Friend OOC and Good Enemy IC, is to care as much about the player whose character your about to fuck over, as you do about your own character. Because only one of those is a real human being. Tell a story together, rather than imposing your story upon them.It will remain PvP until the players are on the same side.-BradOn Wed, May 22, 2024 at 5:42 PM Tremere Coordinator <tremereco...@gmail.com> wrote:One thing that I emphasized a lot when I was rebooting OT was trying to ensure that players got to know each other as people before their characters. I encouraged people to get to know each other before game and I encouraged afters. I feel strongly that if we know each other as gamers before our characters it makes things a lot healthier.On Wed, May 22, 2024, 5:10 PM NAMediator 2 <named...@owbn.net> wrote:Okay so I am not sure why my AHC email is not showing but okay.Any way things we need to keep in mind regarding CVC. It takes a long time is the org to rebuild after a character dies. National level play on particular. So respecting someone grieving process through needs to be respected.Also we need to separate how we speak about characters vs how we speak about the player. Characters may make choices that aren’t “genure”, that are antagonistic and often conflict inducing. Dosent mean it’s the player or the player is bad, or dumb or dosent know genure.We need to not mock the player for there character choices.KrisAHC 2On Wed, May 22, 2024 at 5:44 PM Shadows Crossing <shadowscr...@gmail.com> wrote:Thank you Matt, that was very well said!
So one thing I have to say, which may not be well received, is (and going to be very long-winded I apologize):
Stop asking OOC. In fact, the less OOC talk regarding tense situations the better.
This is going to allow the RP to continue, and will not force your friends into that awkward situation where they must: 1. lie 2. give away plans and HOPE this does not create a situation where you OOC panic and metagame because of said panic or decide they are the enemy or no longer their friend or try to argue them out of it OOC etc.
When you lose a PC? Tell everyone asking that the PC is gone.. and to find out IC. Vent to your STs.. or people who already know, but don't spoil the hunt for everyone, or ruin the fun for the people who got your PC.
Stop asking OOC. I know that is difficult, but it requires a change of mindset regarding PC death:
When I first started in the org, I lost a character within a year and a half. That was my first PC and Mistakes Were Made. Of course they were.. I was learning on that pc. I loved that PC but I also had no idea what it was to lose a long term PC so I wasn't worried about it. Game was still just a game to me! I did ask someone earlier "are you out to get my PC." That person was Kenny Lull! Not sure if he plays anymore but this was circa 2001 or 2. So. He said a very wise thing to me which was: "You will feel better about game if you don't know if I or any other character is out to get you. You can't flip to the end of the novel. Just enjoy your pc while she lasts."
Several months later, he was indeed the person who killed my PC. He was very concerned about fall-out, because she was already making waves.. and begged me not to talk about it OOC. I agreed..in fact I was so new to the org it never occurred to me that this was a thing and I asked him if it was cheating, and he confirmed yes, it sure was.. but impossible to track or prove, because there is no rule about talking about game OOC. I decided I definitely did NOT want to be a cheater and that was not the type of player I wanted to be known as.
SO MANY people asked me about her death.. OOC. I told them I didn't know, she didn't leave a note. His PC was found out years later. I got to see the fall out and it was so worth the wait! I still think fondly of Kenny because he made me no promises and told me no lies, and I never made him have to do so. I also never had to feel like I couldn't look him in the eye, because I in return did not cheat HIM. I can say that with my PC death, I learned how to lose, and that the end is what defines what kind of good sport (or not) you are. You aren't required to be thrilled the PC is gone. It is ok to be sad, mad, upset... but.. also within the context of knowing that you did sign up to play this game.. and now this particular character story is done, but you really can make new ones. What is more important is how you treat your friends and your ability to keep playing with the people you enjoy.
It is 20 something years later, and I have as a player, ST, Coord, etc seen a lot of PC death, and I can tell you that nearly 100 percent of the time, nothing good comes from pressuring your friends into telling you if they are out to get your PC. It's really an unfair position to be put in. If you know to ask.. then you probably already know if your character has done something to make them marked for it. So, do you REALLY need to ask? If you have a feeling.. take the feeling IC and don't go walk off with that Vampire by yourself.. or don't go to their haven, domain, etc. IF you have to know: Ask after the scene. If you go anyways, and your PC survives.. DO NOT ASK OOC QUESTIONS. RP on through. Ask someday. Keep it IC, and you cannot hurt your own feelings or make your friends hurt you by asking them OOC.
You cannot stop your PC from eventually dying, but you can set yourself up to be a good sport about it. Try to think of it as an eventuality, and think about how you would handle it. To try to be a good sport about losing my characters, I tell myself "this is the game she dies." before every game. I have learned my sheet to the best I can, so I don't feel like I failed to defend the character due to ignorance, and that is all I can do. I have an after doom treat that I will treat myself too. I don't drink but I will ask my PC's killer(s) to come find dessert with me. They will have to listen to me talk all about her. ;) I will enjoy the fallout as everyone freaks out that she died. Then I will let it go. I don't want to know that someone came after my PC because they did not like ME. Don't tell me I won't ask, you don't tell. I will take it IC. If I am feeling in particular like I just cannot handle my PC dying that night, or event.. I won't take them to it. I will do something else, play something else. It's a game. If it doesn't sound fun, don't go. If you do go, be a good sport and RP on through.
Happy Gaming,
Heather Anne Hernlem
Shadows Crossing AST
Nosferatu Coordinator
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----Brad Klinger
HST, Kingdom of AshesArchivistAssamite SubcoordSabbat Subcoord
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Nosferatu Coordinator
Sts should be watching the scenes and asking the new player (and even established players) "Your PC has this amount of mental traits, creature type lore, and their background says they were a business owner ... would they really do xyz thing that would make everyone mad? Did you think that through?" or "You have enough lore, abilities, etc to know this is not going to end well if you continue this course of action". If an ST cannot see a line of reasoning for the reactions of other PCs.. the ST needs to ask the players why they are targeting this person, and what their end goal is... and adjust it if it is too extreme or just not in keeping with the standards of the game.
What Players should be doing & Check ins:
Players could be developing their friendships with new and current other players, and trying to get to know people outside of game. I say "could" because everyone has their limits on what social interactions they want to participate in. I will say, getting to know everyone OOC is what made me stay when I was new, and I also appreciated players explaining mechanics to me, or saying "I am using this power, here is the retest" and being patient while I looked through my character sheet when I was in combat. Showing me kindness OOC was most important to me. If they told me "it will be ok" and then had killed my PC? That would have definitely made me leave. If you are in the middle of actually destroying a character, and the person drops OOC to ask if that is what is happening then it is ok to say "yes, are you ok? Do you need a moment to collect your thoughts?". A Check in does not mean that this is the opportunity for the player whose PC is being attacked to drop OOC to argue, or try to convince people OOC, or what have you. If they are truly surprised, definitely ask for a time out to talk to the ST staff and ask if the scene is legitimate. That is perfectly reasonable. They may also ask the ST to help with running their sheet and give them tips, especially if they are not used to combat.
My statements were simply regarding; Don't talk OOC about IC motivations and don't force people to tell you IC secrets. Definitely check in, make sure someone is ok. Give them a moment to collect themselves, breath, talk to STs, look at their sheet. Explain "There is a reason for this, and we have made sure the STs know why, and we are happy to talk to you after."
Instructions to join IC email Lists for Clan Nosferatu:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1vOqatJ3ULV1jQDbsPOTdAVWWxashHMgAYYL7lo3913Y/edit?usp=sharing
If I chose to work on ongoing concerns outside of office hours, that is my purview. I will get to new
Heather,I appreciate your point of veiw. And on most of it agree. From my life experiences, school, work, home, gaming. Communication is needed. Not during a scene perhaps unless it is going really poorly. But before the scenes. When your hanging out, talk with the hst, the other players. Make plans, be inclusive.I have seen many new players leave and never come back because no one talks to them ooc. Explains, includes them, nothing. New players make mistakes ic because they didn't know ooc. But are slammed with punishments and consequences instead of the ST stepping in and helping them. Calming down the beat down players.Sometimes, people need to talk.Now the deep secret plot stuff. Just say, I can't tell this part cause then it'll spoil it. And I wanna see your face, and hope you don't throw something at me.A few people have said this, but just being targeted out of the blue is not fun. It sucks, and you can't tell if it is personal or not when no one says anything. It made me feel isolated, hated, and unwanted, and made me want to quit because obviously I was being drivin off.
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