Puma 2.4 engine question

[Douw Kruger]

Last week a person who claims to know diesel engines drove with me in the Puma. He mentioned a sound in the engine that could be a stuck valve or hydraulic lifters. I don't want to go to the agent and I cannot get hold of Gerrit Visser, who is now my port of call. What are the implications of the "diagnosis" and how do I deal with it.? Can it cause damage in the short term? I am a bit clueless here.

Douw

[Nakkiran Sunassee]

Douw, check your VIN against this TSB:

Title: 2.4 Puma Engine Knock Noise. 
Type: LD - Defender - All Years - Special Service Messages - Engine 
Name / Part No: SSM38792 
Info Type: Service Bulletins 
Version No: 1 
Date Uploaded: 21 Jul 2008 
Models: LD - Defender 
Title: 2.4 Puma Engine Knock Noise. 
Last Modified: 21-JUL-2008 09:44 
Category: Engine 
Symptom: 497000 Engine Noise 

Content Issue: Heavy audible knocking heard on start up. 
Cause: On start up oil pressures can cause the piston cooling jets, (PCJ), to latch into a zero flow condition. Due to hysteresis effect in design the jets do not unlatch until the engine is warm and the oil pressures lower again. During this time with no pressurized oil jet flow to the lower pistons / cylinder bores, overheat and scuff conditions / damage can occur. 

Action: Replace the engine assy but ensure only engines post serial # ELD00080707063602 are used. 
This condition will not occur on vehicles post assured Vin# 9A767162. 
Engines post the info above are fitted with modified PCJ internal springs and this issue is now closed.

[Hubert Stegmann]

Hi Douw,

Whereabouts are you? Best would be to get a opinion from a local independant perhaps

On Mon, Jan 27, 2014 at 9:12 AM, Douw Kruger <dou...@gmail.com> wrote:

Last week a person who claims to know diesel engines drove with me in the Puma. He mentioned a sound in the engine that could be a stuck valve or hydraulic lifters. I don't want to go to the agent and I cannot get hold of Gerrit Visser, who is now my port of call. What are the implications of the "diagnosis" and how do I deal with it.? Can it cause damage in the short term? I am a bit clueless here.

Douw

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[Deon Kotze]

Douw

Ask Johann Tyre who he can recommend here in Cape Town.

 

Deon Kotze

http://picasaweb.google.com/deonzar

http://www.flickr.com/photos/deon_kotze/

--

[Nakkiran Sunassee]

does it sound like this? http://youtu.be/J43uYb0gcts

this was due to a faulty injector, see thread here: http://www.defender2.net/forum/topic6656.html

On Monday, 27 January 2014 09:12:05 UTC+2, Douw Kruger wrote:

[Hubert Stegmann]

Cape town area, just take it to someone like Gateway Centre in Wellington

If you mean Gerrit Visser aka Handy Landy, he sadly passed away last year

--

[Nakkiran Sunassee]

Douw, if you can, please record the sound and post it to YouTube.

We can have a listen and advise.

On Monday, 27 January 2014 09:12:05 UTC+2, Douw Kruger wrote:

[Douw Kruger]

I am in Durbnville, Cape.

My VIN number is SALLDHMT7AA796876 and engine number is 100512005329224DT. Bought new in July 2010. i don't know how to compare that with the numbers given by Naks.

Douw

[Hubert Stegmann]

Close to me then.

If you want, let me have a listen and compare it to mine as well. Maybe we can start there to see if there is anything wrong or not

--

[Douw Kruger]

I have been trying for a week to phone Gerrit but no reply, just voice mail. I drove to his house and everything seemed locked up. I assumed they were on holiday. Really bad news. He was an old fashioned mechanic. Now I know why the neighbour who was watering his garden was eyeballing me in such a funny way. Serviced my Landy in September last year. RIP.

Douw

[Nakkiran Sunassee]

Your best bet in that area is Elrico Motors:

Address: 5 Tedric str, Kaymor, Stikland, 7560, Western Cape, South Africa
Phone:021 948 9775

Or else the Twins at British 4x4 are very good with the Puma:

Address: 9 Mocke Rd, Cape Town 7945
Phone:021 712 3701

[Douw Kruger]

Elrico says no problem. Vibration from aluminium heat shield - somewhat loose.

So this was a cheapie.

thanks for the input.

Douw

[Marc Hall]

That’s a love/hate outcome …..

 

Love it that it’s not serious but hate the “terror” of the unsure diagnosis.

 

 

 

From: overlan...@googlegroups.com [mailto:overlan...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Douw Kruger

Sent: 27 January 2014 11:05 AM
To: overlan...@googlegroups.com

--

[Nakkiran Sunassee]

The one by the turbo? It's not uncommon for one or more of the bolts to become loose.

Btw, have you removed your cat yet?

[Bruce Turner]

I think that we as LR drivers have become so terrified of all the reliability issues that we read about and are constantly reminded of, that we tend to overreact when things go wrong or dont sound right. 

After this past few months of non stop abuse and the fear of catastrophic failure being drummed into me wrt my Disco3, and as much as I love Landy's, I for one am gatvol of driving one and will probably never buy another one. Its just not worth the worry as well as the constant jovial abuse that it brings you, it gets really tiring especially when that's all you ever hear from the same people....oh and I heard the same drivel about the Puma which gave me 60k kms of trouble free mileage and whose new owner has already done just over 12k kms with no problems.

But having said all of this, what else is there to purchase? Perhaps the new Ford? 

Oh and Douw,  go and give the mechanic who said it was a stuck valve or whatever a snot klap for making you worry! :) 

Rgds

BruceT

[Nico Roets]

Yes Bruce - that new Ford Mustang looks like real teaser....

Regards,
Nico Roets
Find me on Flicr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/nico_roets/sets/

[Hubert Stegmann]

Well said Bruce

Both my Puma's had over 100k on the clock

My first one now just close to 200k and still no problems according to her new owner.

That one I also got the bad omen messages once of blown turbos etc which turned out to be a clogged snorkel causing all the problems

[Eric (A.H.) Sommer]

There is one way, and only one way, to stop worrying.

 

Know your car better. No matter the brand. Investigate, learn.

 

ta

 

 

A.H. (Eric) Sommer  | zr6...@gmail.com | +27 82 492 9272  | (Fax )+27 86 530 6642 | ZR6ETR (gTalk)

Please note that calls to my cell from “unknown” or “private numbers” are automatically blocked

 

[Christo Steyn]

Gospel......

--

[Heine De Villiers]

Also keep your aspirations within vehicle capabilities. There's a reason why both Phillip Sprules and I no longer use our D3's for overlanding ....

[Peter Levey]

Prezactly

Peter Levey
http://www.flickr.com/photos/leveypa/

--

[Bruce Turner]

Or modify the said vehicle to meet the aspirations??

Out of interest, what issues did you and Philip have and how many kms did your disco's have on them when these problems occurred? 

From what you said when Philip's break down occurred, in your opinion it was from abuse and he had done many trips with it without any issues?

(sorry didnt keep up with the story to see if this opinion had changed since)

@Eric - Exactly.

Rgds

BruceT 

--

[Fanie du Plessis]

Indeed Bruce, don't you just hate it when a Cruiser stop in the lane next to you and you want to plug the Faultmate into the OBD plug to find out what's causing the noise, until you realize it's the washing machine next door that's trying to spin dry a pair of tekkies :-)

[Heine De Villiers]

All the usual D3 issues

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[Douw Kruger]

No, I have not removed the cat. Why should I? Fuel consumption?

Douw 

[Rob Harvey]

Late to the party here, but been there done that on the heat shield. I get / got a buzz at exactly 2,500 rpm and by pure fluke tracked it back to the heat shield, but not before the agents gave me a free front propshaft (thanks warranty). It still happens after a while, for best results I undo all the bolts, get rid of any dust in the area and retighten. 

And now that I'm out of warranty I actually listen out less for odd noises etc (probably because I'm paying and not LR).

[Bruce Turner]

Diesels dont come with catalytic converters apparently. On mine I removed a thing that looked like a catalytic converter but forget the name that was given to me - anyone?. I found that diesel smell was stronger when idling and the vehicle did feel more responsive but I had done the inter-cooler also so cant swear by it.

 

You basically taking out some restriction from your exhaust. For me the biggest difference was that the drivers foot well seemed much cooler as it didnt have that big hot piece of metal and ceramic on the other side of the firewall. 

Rgds

BruceT  

--

[Hubert Stegmann]

Also heard about the only thing removing the Cat or what ever its called, does is to lessen the heat on the handbrake lever

[Eric (A.H.) Sommer]

Particulate Filter!

[Bruce Turner]

Thats it. Thx Eric.

--

[Brian McMahon]

DPF not fitted to Land Rovers destined for Africa, including South Africa. Diesel fuel, to the right spec, is not easily available everywhere, so they are not suitable.

 

 

 

Regards,

 

Brian McMahon

br...@bdmc.co.za

bri...@mweb.co.za

+27 82 652-0101

 

From: overlan...@googlegroups.com [mailto:overlan...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Turner
Sent: Monday, January 27, 2014 14:02
To: overland-forum
Subject: Re: [Overland] Re: Puma 2.4 engine question

 

Thats it. Thx Eric.

[Bruce Turner]

Hi Brian,

Im confused then.......what was fitted to the Puma, particularly the 2.4? 

Also did the 2.2 not get the DPF which I thought was one of the reasons most guys decided not to buy one.

Rgds

BruceT 

--

[Brian McMahon]

Bruce, no DPF, but from about 2001 even the TD5 had a CAT, as did the Disco 3 and 4 TDV6. Also Range Rovers with diesel or petrol engines. That was a CAT you had removed J

 

You can check on the SA Land Rover web site, they do state no DPF fitted for this area, for good reason.

 

I would not have a DPF, so I am glad they are not fitted for this continent. Many tears shed over cost and maintenance of DPFs in Europe now, but they have no choice, legal requirement there in large cities and a big nuisance. Not even emergency vehicles are exempt

[Heine De Villiers]

It's called s DPF - go Google it, but it is basically the diesel equivalent of a cat.

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Sent from my Galaxy S4 Active with Kaiten Mail.
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[Brian McMahon]

Bruce, I also saw some posts from those who had not checked properly. When the fuss started on UK fora about DPFs, there were a number of people who wrongly assumed same would apply here and based their decisions on that ignorance. An easy check on the LR site would have alleviated their fears.

 

 

But !................................we’ll get them some day, only a matter of time.

 

I’m happy enough with my 23 year old Range Rover as my daily drive and my 20 year old Defender equipped for serious trips. Amazingly reliable they are too, cheap to maintain and don’t leak anything. Not because they’re empty of oil either. I also snub the little girlies who make half witted comments based on ignorance and think it’s funny if it concerns a Land Rover.

 

But then, maybe I don’t know enough about them. I only have 45 years of using Land Rovers to travel around Africa, from the first Morocco trip in 1969, followed by two trans Sahara trips in the early 70s, which I organised and led. I posted the pics from one of them a while back and have actually written a trip report up on that one now, 40 years later J    In the interim I have owned a total of 6 Land Rovers and have, so far, visited 17 countries in Africa.

 

I have, in those 45 years, had two breakdowns which I could not repair on the spot and needed outside assistance. Only because I didn’t have a spare with me. Once a coil burnt out, due to faulty HT leads. Once the transistor pack gave way a couple of months later. Related I suspect. Those are items that need checking and a spare (cheap and small enough to fit the toolbox) is now carried. I have had only 4 other occasions to make a repair on a trip, which was a nuisance each time, but not really serious, taking an hour or so each time to get going again. Other items have worn out, of course, in those years, but they have been sorted as part of routine maintenance and have not let me down when in a remote area.

 

I think Land Rovers are very reliable and dependable, from my, admittedly small, experience. You would find it very difficult to persuade me otherwise.

 

I like the fact that the most recent London to Cape Town record breakers, as well as the third last ones, used Land Rover Discoverys, the latest being a Disco 3 a few months ago and had no reliability problems either. They are up to the job, as they have always been.

 

 

 

Regards,

 

Brian McMahon

br...@bdmc.co.za

bri...@mweb.co.za

+27 82 652-0101

 

From: overlan...@googlegroups.com [mailto:overlan...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Turner
Sent: Monday, January 27, 2014 15:25
To: overland-forum
Subject: Re: [Overland] Re: Puma 2.4 engine question

 

Hi Brian,

[Francois Visagie]

See if Schalk Burger in the Strand can help – 0218534465.

 

There’s also LR Service Centre in Tokai & Montague Gardens, as well as Gateway out Wellington way.

 

Cheers,

Francois

 

Francois Visagie

 

 

T: +27 (83) 326-4358

F: +27 (86) 511-3490

E: francois...@gmail.com

 

 

From: overlan...@googlegroups.com [mailto:overlan...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Deon Kotze
Sent: 27 January 2014 09:29
To: overlan...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [Overland] Puma 2.4 engine question

 

Douw

Ask Johann Tyre who he can recommend here in Cape Town.

 

Deon Kotze

http://picasaweb.google.com/deonzar

http://www.flickr.com/photos/deon_kotze/

 

From: overlan...@googlegroups.com [mailto:overlan...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Douw Kruger

Sent: 27 January 2014 09:12 AM
To: overlan...@googlegroups.com

Subject: [Overland] Puma 2.4 engine question

 

Last week a person who claims to know diesel engines drove with me in the Puma. He mentioned a sound in the engine that could be a stuck valve or hydraulic lifters. I don't want to go to the agent and I cannot get hold of Gerrit Visser, who is now my port of call. What are the implications of the "diagnosis" and how do I deal with it.? Can it cause damage in the short term? I am a bit clueless here.

 

Douw

[Nico Roets]

 Brian I have to agree - with proper maintenance (as opposed to merely servicing) most vehicle are surprisingly reliable.

 

As far as the latest spate of Cape to Cairo record attempts are concerned, my view is that they actually prove nothing apart from the fact that one can travel a large distance over the course of a week with a new (or fairly new), virtually unloaded vehicle. Cape to Cairo is also not what it used to be if one sticks to the main road - tarred virtually all the way....

 

 

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[Zakon]

Thanks for your extensive reply.  It help to ease my own mind re my Defender :-)  as I am relatively new to Land Rover products.  My Defender (2002 hardtop, Td5) has 230,000 km on the clock and took me over 25,000 km trouble free trips.
But with all the comments, one always have a nagging concern.  But as you rightly pointing out, it is vitally important that regular, KNOWLEDGEABLE maintenance is conducted between trips.  My last trip was a case in point in that I couldn't get a decent service point and had it serviced at SAC, Kyalami.  Had problems all the way to Maun and had to drain around three litres of oil as they over filled it.  
Kind regards
Zak

[Pete Kemp]

Hear hear Brian. Hercules, my V8 Defender turns 21 on Wednesday. Never given me any hassles on trips. Regular routine maintenance is the key. Have had to replace a few bits and pieces through normal wear and tear. Just bought a 2004 Td5 Disco for longer trips - albeit I have only had it for 6 months, I couldn't be happier. Have owned Landies for the past 28 years and certainly intend to stick with them for the next 28. Cheers Pete

--

[Mike Cliff]

As the saying goes, "If it has t*ts or wheels it will give you hassles".

I have owned numerous 4x4s (three Land Rovers, three Toyotas and a few Nissans and Mazda thrown in too). All the Toyotas have leaked oil. Only one of the Landys did. 

The point that I am trying to make is that with the proper maintanence thay all are great vehicles in their own right. There are consumable parts that need replacing ... and maintanence that needs to be done. 

We generally so not replace the vehicles every year and we do subject them to deepest and darkest Africa so the maintanence and good use thereof does become our daily occurance.

Alot of this discussion, I think, has been brought on by Bruce Turner whom has recently traded his Defender in on a Disco 3. We have all given him banter cos he has been so vocal about it and he does open himself up for abuse. However his needs for a rugged 4x4 have dwindled to maybe once or twice a year and the rest of the time tar. So his decision makes perfect sense. 

I recently sold the Hilux and got an old Cruiser. I love it, however after getting it I sent it in for maintanence, I gave it a going over too yet on my last trip it broke down twice. Fixed properly and those problems will not happen again.

Wrt this discussion, there are no bad vehicles yet all do at some stage demand tlc. Luckily this problem turned out to be a vibrating plate and not something serious, and well done on knowing your vehicle well enough to pick it up. 

The Puma motor is an incredable motor and works really well in the Defender. It also gives great fuel consumption.

The Disco has great comfort features and is reasonably good off road too, yet is very electrical is that is often worrying.

Each to their own.

Hope my rambling makes sense.

Mike Cliff

Sent from my Toaster using the Microwave and Cheese.

Zakon <zo1...@gmail.com> wrote:


     Thanks for your extensive reply.  It help to ease my own mind re my Defender :-)  as I am relatively new to Land Rover products.  My Defender (2002 hardtop, Td5) has 230,000 km on the clock and took me over 25,000 km trouble free trips.
But with all the comments, one always have a nagging concern.  But as you rightly pointing out, it is vitally important that regular, KNOWLEDGEABLE maintenance is conducted between trips.  My last trip was a case in point in that I couldn't get a decent service point and had it serviced at SAC, Kyalami.  Had problems all the way to Maun and had to drain around three litres of oil as they over filled it.  
Kind regards
Zak

On 2014/01/27 04:10 PM, Brian McMahon wrote:

Bruce, I also saw some posts from those who had not checked properly. When the fuss started on UK fora about DPFs, there were a number of people who wrongly assumed same would apply here and based their decisions on that ignorance. An easy check on the LR site would have alleviated their fears.

 

 

But !................................we’ll get them some day, only a matter of time.

 

I’m happy enough with my 23 year old Range Rover as my daily drive and my 20 year old Defender equipped for serious trips. Amazingly reliable they are too, cheap to maintain and don’t leak anything. Not because they’re empty of oil either. I also snub the little girlies who make half witted comments based on ignorance and think it’s funny if it concerns a Land Rover.

 

But then, maybe I don’t know enough about them. I only have 45 years of using Land Rovers to travel around Africa, from the first Morocco trip in 1969, followed by two trans Sahara trips in the early 70s, which I organised and led. I posted the pics from one of them a while back and have actually written a trip report up on that one now, 40 years later J    In the interim I have owned a total of 6 Land Rovers and have, so far, visited 17 countries in Africa.

 

I have, in those 45 years, had two breakdowns which I could not repair on the spot and needed outside assistance. Only because I didn’t have a spare with me. Once a coil burnt out, due to faulty HT leads. Once the transistor pack gave way a couple of months later. Related I suspect. Those are items that need checking and a spare (cheap and small enough to fit the toolbox) is now carried. I have had only 4 other occasions to make a repair on a trip, which was a nuisance each time, but not really serious, taking an hour or so each time to get going again. Other items have worn out, of course, in those years, but they have been sorted as part of routine maintenance and have not let me down when in a remote area.

 

I think Land Rovers are very reliable and dependable, from my, admittedly small, experience. You would find it very difficult to persuade me otherwise.

 

I like the fact that the most recent London to Cape Town record breakers, as well as the third last ones, used Land Rover Discoverys, the latest being a Disco 3 a few months ago and had no reliability problems either. They are up to the job, as they have always been.

 

 

 

Regards,

 

Brian McMahon

br...@bdmc.co.za

bri...@mweb.co.za

+27 82 652-0101

 

[cor...@gmail.com]

From Patagonia!! Three Landys, Two Toyotas, Nissan and LR again, plus 30 and minus 30 C in winter, only one secret, maintenance and good spare parts!!!keep on wheels!!! Great year for all

Enviado desde mi BlackBerry de Movistar (http://www.movistar.com.ar)

---

From: Mike Cliff <opti...@mweb.co.za>

Sender: overlan...@googlegroups.com

Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 05:47:36 +0200

To: <overlan...@googlegroups.com>

ReplyTo: overlan...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [Overland] Re: Puma 2.4 engine question

[Francois Visagie]

I don’t believe you! I’ll have to come look ;-).

 

Francois Visagie

 

 

T: +27 (83) 326-4358

F: +27 (86) 511-3490

E: francois...@gmail.com

 

 

[Nakkiran Sunassee]

You should, Patagonia is amazing!

[Michael Spencer-Wilson]

I enjoyed reading the rivalry between Landy and Toyota. Someone has written an unbiased opinions, always good to level the playing field out once in a while.

I fully support, buy a modest 4x4 if it suits your pocket,then maintain on an ongoing time line. It's not a debate who can run their vehicles the longest and not breakdown, that's not the point.

[Douw Kruger]

I am totally unbiased and wrote a comparison between Defenders and LC76 some time ago.

Douw

“The nation which forgets its Defenders will be itself forgotten.”  Calvin Coolidge  President of the USA (1923 – 1929)

[Bruce Turner]

In my opinion they are both great vehicles, who cares about a comparison of who is "king of the hill" for whatever reason - they all have their strong points and weak points..... i just choose one above the other for personal preferences no other reason. This does not mean the other is bad or that I will not "cross over" on my next purchase.....

I just don't get the constant debate and never ending ridicule that's associated with driving a particular brand.......neither of the two main brand owners involved in these "debates", pay or even recognise anyone to defend their brand, so why are there such loyalists who will go to extremes to try and prove that the brand they are currently driving is better than the other and then this loyalty suddenly changes when they decide to switch brands on their next purchase? 

A joke is a joke but it does get tiring and becomes very uncomfortable and frustrating after a never ending onslaught and once there is retaliation then all hell brakes loose and some peoples lips hit the floor. Just not worth it and definitely not why I drive any brand of 4x4. 

Be happy for your mates when they purchase the vehicle of their dreams, even when you don't agree with the purchase. Be happy that they are happy and if you are not happy for them, you then need to seriously reevaluate your friendship and decide what is important!

I'm now done with this subject!!

Rgds

BruceT 

--

[Francois Visagie]

Very well said, Bruce.

 

“so why are there such loyalists who will go to extremes to try and prove that the brand they are currently driving is better than the other”

For what it’s worth, I think it has to do with the human herding instinct.

 

Cheers,

Francois

 

Francois Visagie

 

 

T: +27 (83) 326-4358

F: +27 (86) 511-3490

E: francois...@gmail.com

 

 

From: overlan...@googlegroups.com [mailto:overlan...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Turner
Sent: 29 January 2014 08:49
To: overland-forum
Subject: Re: [Overland] Re: Puma 2.4 engine question

 

In my opinion they are both great vehicles, who cares about a comparison of who is "king of the hill" for whatever reason - they all have their strong points and weak points..... i just choose one above the other for personal preferences no other reason. This does not mean the other is bad or that I will not "cross over" on my next purchase.....

[Heine De Villiers]

Maybe they are talking from first-hand experience

[Peter Levey]

Yep, its the same as the Apple vs Android debate and those emigrants who when they get to their new countries can do nothing but moan about where they have come from.  Studies from top psychologists have shown that these people are insecure so let's not be too rough on them - they made a choice and discovered it is not all it was cracked up to be and so to 'maintain face' they fall back into this mode of behaviour.

Cheers

Peter Levey
http://www.flickr.com/photos/leveypa/

[Mike Lauterbach]

:)

[Pim Kielen]

Don't tell Heine :-)

Pim

[Henk Coetzee]

Well said, Bruce. But admit it, you do feel warm and fuzzy inside when you recover one of the other brand.