Fw: Defender Puma's electronic traction control

[5krugers]

 

This weekend I could test the Puma's ETC for the first time in "serious' conditions.  I drove twice up and down the Matroosberg trail in the Western Cape. The first section contains two  steep inclines with a loose gravel and stone surface, as well as typical "spun-out" holes.  The vehicle was heavily loaded with gear as well as 4 people inside.  With only ETC to assist it battled to get through the really loose and steep parts (I am not an expert with ETC).  The moment I engaged diff-lock, it became a breeze.  What I did not know was that the ETC and the diff lock work simultaneously.  I was under the impression that the ETC would switch off when the diff lock is engaged.

 

Douw

[Sats Oosthuizen]

Without the CDL all you get is sequential 1 wheel spin...

On 2 November 2010 07:14, 5krugers <5kru...@iburst.co.za> wrote:

 

This weekend I could test the Puma's ETC for the first time in "serious' conditions.  I drove twice up and down the Matroosberg trail in the Western Cape. The first section contains two  steep inclines with a loose gravel and stone surface, as well as typical "spun-out" holes.  The vehicle was heavily loaded with gear as well as 4 people inside.  With only ETC to assist it battled to get through the really loose and steep parts (I am not an expert with ETC).  The moment I engaged diff-lock, it became a breeze.  What I did not know was that the ETC and the diff lock work simultaneously.  I was under the impression that the ETC would switch off when the diff lock is engaged.

 

Douw

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[Jakes Louw]

Now that is the shortest most succinct explanation yet.

[Nakkiran]

You can disable the ETC if you want by doing the following:
Press the brake pedal 10 or so times after you start the engine within
a 5-10 second time limit. The ABS light will remain on for a while.
This is only on pre-11MY Pumas though.

[Bruce Turner]

Yes Douw it works when the diff is locked also. What I struggled with is getting into keeping my foot on the accelerator so that the TC could work. If you adjust your acceleration when you loose traction it apparently stops the TC from working. What works for me now is I let the vehicle idle in 1st low range up an obstacle and it does everything for itself.

I have yet to try it in deep sand.

 

Different style of driving!

 

BTW what model do you have and what consumption do you get on average?

 

Rgds

BruceT

On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 7:14 AM, 5krugers <5kru...@iburst.co.za> wrote:

 

This weekend I could test the Puma's ETC for the first time in "serious' conditions.  I drove twice up and down the Matroosberg trail in the Western Cape. The first section contains two  steep inclines with a loose gravel and stone surface, as well as typical "spun-out" holes.  The vehicle was heavily loaded with gear as well as 4 people inside.  With only ETC to assist it battled to get through the really loose and steep parts (I am not an expert with ETC).  The moment I engaged diff-lock, it became a breeze.  What I did not know was that the ETC and the diff lock work simultaneously.  I was under the impression that the ETC would switch off when the diff lock is engaged.

 

Douw

--

[Rob Harvey]

On my 09 110 I'm averaging 8.5 - 9 km/l in and aound town. Best was
10km/l on a Moz trip, crusing at around 100km/h on the open road, with
some off-road work. Worst was going to Zimbabwe with a fully loaded
roof-rack, trying to maintain 120km/h - got 7.5km/l. BFG Muds on.

> > overland-foru...@googlegroups.com<overland-forum%2Bunsubscribe@go­oglegroups.com>

>
> > 4x4's and other stuff for sale:

> >http://www.overland.co.za/phpBB3/viewforum.php?f=2- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[CS]

NO, Bruce.......

Since 2003 the TC works when the clutch and brake are released - go
try that, it works a treat. In Pre 2003 models you had to keep the
revs above 1850RPM for TC to work.....

Yes, I had a 2007 Td5 with TC and ABS.... ;-)

Cheers
CS

On Nov 2, 10:26 am, Bruce Turner <bjturn...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Yes Douw it works when the diff is locked also. What I struggled with is
> getting into keeping my foot on the accelerator so that the TC could work.
> If you adjust your acceleration when you loose traction it apparently stops
> the TC from working. What works for me now is I let the vehicle idle in 1st
> low range up an obstacle and it does everything for itself.
> I have yet to try it in deep sand.
>
> Different style of driving!
>
> BTW what model do you have and what consumption do you get on average?
>
> Rgds
> BruceT
>

> On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 7:14 AM, 5krugers <5krug...@iburst.co.za> wrote:
>
> > This weekend I could test the Puma's ETC for the first time in "serious'
> > conditions.  I drove twice up and down the Matroosberg trail in the Western
> > Cape. The first section contains two  steep inclines with a loose gravel
> > and stone surface, as well as typical "spun-out" holes.  The vehicle was
> > heavily loaded with gear as well as 4 people inside.  With only ETC to
> > assist it battled to get through the really loose and steep parts (I am not
> > an expert with ETC).  The moment I engaged diff-lock, it became a breeze.
> > What I did not know was that the ETC and the diff lock work simultaneously.
> > I was under the impression that the ETC would switch off when the diff lock
> > is engaged.
>
> > Douw
>
> > --
> > DO YOU WANT TO UNSUBSCRIBE ? Then send a blank email to:

> > overland-foru...@googlegroups.com<overland-forum%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>

[Bruce Turner]

Naks....why does this not work on the 11MY do you know and what should you do on the 11MY model? I believe this should be done when driving in sand....is that correct?

 

thx.

 

Rgds

BruceT

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[Christo Steyn]

Bruce.... me again.....

I've done that in Gona Re Zhou 2009 .... and was caught with sand in the face.... It did NOT work for me, TC [the new type] is better left on.....

Cheers
CS

[Rob Harvey]

On normal sand my TC hasn't cut in - but I imagine if you did the
Namib dunes trip or suchlike you would be better off disabling the TC.
Just pull the fuse, I'm not sure the brake-pumping thing works (but am
happy to be corrected).

On Nov 2, 10:35 am, Bruce Turner <bjturn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Naks....why does this not work on the 11MY do you know and what should you
> do on the 11MY model? I believe this should be done when driving in
> sand....is that correct?
>
> thx.
>
> Rgds
> BruceT
>
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 10:11 AM, Nakkiran <n.sunas...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > You can disable the ETC if you want by doing the following:
> > Press the brake pedal 10 or so times after you start the engine within
> > a 5-10 second time limit. The ABS light will remain on for a while.
> > This is only on pre-11MY Pumas though.
>
> > --
> > DO YOU WANT TO UNSUBSCRIBE ? Then send a blank email to:

> > overland-foru...@googlegroups.com<overland-forum%2Bunsubscribe@go­oglegroups.com>

>
> > 4x4's and other stuff for sale:

[Bruce Turner]

Hi CS...what I meant is .....in my TD5 without the TC and ABS I "played" with the accelerator when traction was lost..in the Puma for it to work effectively you should keep the revs consistent otherwise it confuses the system. This is what I was told at Gerotek by the LR Experience instructor.....

 

Rgds

BruceT

[Bruce Turner]

Hi again CS......aah ok...that makes sence.

 

 

 

Thanks.

 

Rgds

BruceT

--

[Christo Steyn]

Yes, I understand you fully - you can "drive on", but it is not necessary to keep the revs way up, TC now works all the time, just don't put your foot on the clutch or brake.... even when you don't accelarate, in gear idling TC still works 100%

On mine you had to switch ignition on, pump the brake pedal 10 times within 10 seconds to disengage TC [TC light stays on not ABS] - problem was, when I got stuck and wheels already spinned, you cannot put TC back on by switching ignition off and on - it only "restored after no wheel spin drive of at least 20 meters.... bugger when you really want it to be on.

Cheers
CS

[Nakkiran]

> On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 10:34 AM, CS <ste...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Since 2003 the TC works when the clutch and brake are released - go
> > try that, it works a treat. In Pre 2003 models you had to keep the
> > revs above 1850RPM for TC to work..... Yes, I had a 2007 Td5 with TC and ABS.... ;-)

The Puma TC works at any rpm, more effectively so when they are kept
constant. Bruce's technique of 1st Low and let it idle away is great
for rock-crawling, for mud you'd need 2nd Low and some voomah.

On Nov 2, 10:47 am, Bruce Turner <bjturn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I believe this should be done when driving in sand....is that correct?

Nope, no need to. Deflate to 1 bar, choose correct gear and TC very
rarely kicks in. At Atlantis Dunes I found that while the Td5 was in
Low, the Puma did better in High, I was having to shift up to 5-6th
Low all the time.

[A.H. (Eric) Sommer]

>> On mine you had to switch ignition on, pump the brake

 

Now why on earth did they not simply install a switch which is TC ON or TC OFF!?

 

Engineer being clever?

 

A.H. (Eric) Sommer

+27 86 530 6642 (Fax )

+27 82 492 9272 (cellular)

callto:ZR6ETR (Skype ID Mobile)

ZR6...@gmail.com

 

[Christo Steyn]

Undocumented electrickery..... you know.... nou "user" should have known this...... ;-)

[Jakes Louw]

This is a very popular mod on various TC enabled vehicles....
The Disco2 and the Jeep GC come to mind.

--

[Bruce Turner]

OK now I am starting to understand.....I have not driven in mud yet (didnt want to dirty the shiney undercarrage- :) ) but will be sure to try that.

 

Eric....why should they fit a switch? thats far too simple....its nice to have surprises sometimes...:)

 

Rgds

BruceT

[A.H. (Eric) Sommer]

>> Eric....why should they fit a switch? thats far too simple

 

You’re right of course – it would just be another point of failure!

 

<ducking>

[Rob Harvey]

Better the switch failing than the brakes.

On Nov 2, 11:31 am, "A.H. \(Eric\) Sommer" <zr6...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Eric....why should they fit a switch? thats far too simple
>

> You're right of course - it would just be another point of failure!

>
> <ducking>
>
> A.H. (Eric) Sommer
> +27 86 530 6642 (Fax )
> +27 82 492 9272 (cellular)

>  <callto:ZR6ETR> callto:ZR6ETR (Skype ID Mobile)
>  <mailto:ZR6...@gmail.com> ZR6...@gmail.com

[Jakes Louw]

Yes. I wonder how many people realise that TC is just a piggy-back on the ABS......
Ever wonder why your brake pads only last 5000kms? And your disks are shot every year?

[Fanie du Plessis]

Really?, on which model?

 

Mine lasted normal mileage, I dare to say longer than with the Disco 1 auto that does not have much engine braking.

 

Regards

 

 

Fanie

[Jakes Louw]

All models. TC is a sequential / controlled braking function, so uses the brakes.
See what happens when you overload the TC in a mud situation: you have accelerated wear due to heat and a grinding paste.

Stands to reason.

--

[Bruce Turner]

Eric..... we will continue our discussion about each others vehicle inadequacies around a fire soon.... :)

 

Right now Im getting some popcorn...... :)

 

Rgds

BruceT

On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 11:45 AM, Fanie du Plessis <dupless...@gmail.com> wrote:

--

[A.H. (Eric) Sommer]

>> I wonder how many people realise that TC is just a piggy-back on the ABS

 

Which is exactly why I asked the question. (besides taking a little dig at the silliness of not having a switch)

I’d turn it off by default when off-road and only turn it on in the most dire of circumstances – like dangerous up/down/side slopes.

 

Cheers

 

A.H. (Eric) Sommer

+27 86 530 6642 (Fax )

+27 82 492 9272 (cellular)

callto:ZR6ETR (Skype ID Mobile)

ZR6...@gmail.com

 

[Fanie du Plessis]

 

>Which is exactly why I asked the question. (besides taking a little dig at the silliness of not having a switch)

>I’d turn it off by default when off-road and only turn it on in the most dire of circumstances – like dangerous up/down/side slopes.

 

Eric the only time you really want it of is when sand driving, then you just pull the ABS Fuse and it stops the TC as well, do your dune driving or whatever, and put the fuse back in.

 

As for the balance of the off Road driving, when used with the centre diff lock, TC kicks in only in extreme situations, and then from my experience only for very short bursts, I have never seen it work for more than 2 to 3 seconds at a time in the 5 years I owned my Disco 2, and brake pad wear was nothing worse than any other nonTC vehicle I have owned.

 

Except for sand driving it is a great system that does not need to be switched off.

 

Regards

 

 

Fanie

 

[Bruce Turner]

Is there anywhere in JHB/PTA where there is thick sand to try and test this?

I would be keen to.....

 

 

Rgds

BruceT

--

[A.H. (Eric) Sommer]

>> we will continue our discussion about each others vehicle

 

Most certainly, but that was not the intention for here!

 

Many manufacturers assume that all drivers are idiots and they know better about the road conditions EVERYWHERE in the WORLD at ALL TIMES!

 

J

 

This is a “stupid arrogant engineer” thing common to them all.

 

A.H. (Eric) Sommer

+27 86 530 6642 (Fax )

+27 82 492 9272 (cellular)

callto:ZR6ETR (Skype ID Mobile)

ZR6...@gmail.com

 

[A.H. (Eric) Sommer]

>> Is there anywhere in JHB/PTA where there is thick sand to try and test this?

 

Sandton drive?

[Optirite]

Gerotek

MC

 

From: overlan...@googlegroups.com [mailto:overlan...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Turner
Sent: 02 November 2010 12:08 PM
To: overlan...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Overland] Re: Fw: Defender Puma's electronic traction control

 

Is there anywhere in JHB/PTA where there is thick sand to try and test this?

[Francois Janse van Rensburg]

Hi Bruce,

You can try this place. Rhino Park. It is part of the McCarthy 4x4 club but anyone with any vehicle can go and drive there. They have a nice sand pit where you can play. It is flat but you will be able to test the Puma's TC. They also have a nice trail that you can drive. Contact them for more info.

http://www.mccarthy4x4.co.za/asp/documents.asp?parentID=7

Cheers,

Francois

[Francois Visagie]

Ponta Malongane?

---

From: overlan...@googlegroups.com [mailto:overlan...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Turner
Sent: 02 November 2010 12:08

To: overlan...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Overland] Re: Fw: Defender Puma's electronic traction control

[Neale Penman]

Hi Bruce

Played with the demo Puma in the special sand hall at Gerotek while you guys were batting around the mountain.

TC worked absolutely effortlessly through the thick loose sand. We cheated and dropped the speed right down to an idle crawl but the vehicle kept moving along nicely.

Then we did the speed and slam brakes in the sand trick. Nice mountains in front of all 4 tyres, but the  Puma pulled itself away with aplomb.

 

The same trick wasn’t quite as successful in the D4, but a short reverse solved the problem.

Then someone decided to do the same in the Freelander. Eish, there was a lot of pushing and swearing J

Cheers

Neale

 

 

---

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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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[Jakes Louw]

Watch out for the sand wash at the old quarry: it took me 4 hours to get my Yamaha TT600 out of there once, and it needed a strip to the chassis to get the muck out.

[SteveP]

I have a 2000MY Disco 2, which may have a completely different TC
system. OTOH, it may be the "Daddy" of the current ones. I didn't have
a locking centre diff linkage (as LR decided the TC was so good no one
would need it) but now have it connected (guts were there anyway) and
also two LSD diffs (TrueTrac) in the axles. The system control (ABS
ECU) is designed to disconnect the TC when the centre diff is locked
(why, I do not know) but cutting a single wire on the ABS control
disables the disabling (if you get my drift). I put a switch in the
glove box so I can have it either way.

I suppose it all depends on how you use your vehilce, but most times
the TC kicks in it is brefly. While I'm sure many of you give the
system a good workout, compared to the challenge of hauling 2000 kgs
down from 100+ km/hr, I doubt it stresses the brakes at all. - SteveP

On Nov 2, 9:02 am, "A.H. \(Eric\) Sommer" <zr6...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> On mine you had to switch ignition on, pump the brake
>
> Now why on earth did they not simply install a switch which is TC ON or TC
> OFF!?
>
> Engineer being clever?
>
> A.H. (Eric) Sommer
> +27 86 530 6642 (Fax )
> +27 82 492 9272 (cellular)

>  <callto:ZR6ETR> callto:ZR6ETR (Skype ID Mobile)
>  <mailto:ZR6...@gmail.com> ZR6...@gmail.com

[Bruce Turner]

Thanks Neale.

So in your opinion and from what you saw you also agree there is no need to disconnect it in thick sand?

 

Rgds

BruceT

--

[Bruce Turner]

Sorry another question Neale, did you deflate the tyres?

 

Rgds

BruceT

On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 1:24 PM, Neale Penman <npe...@mweb.co.za> wrote:

--

[Dave Morgan]

Bruce my man. I will answer your question. We drove the Puma at Gerotek as it was and I doubt if the tyres were deflated, the tyres were probably set at factory pressure.

 

In the Puma you have a fantastic vehicle. I drove the one they flipped around the duck pond and it went like a clock; tick, tick, tick. I would buy one tomorrow if I had the bucks.

 

The issue about brake wear because of the traction control is valid. Try doing a posting on LROC-Techtorque and see what comes up.

 

Dave

----- Original Message -----

From: Bruce Turner

To: overlan...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 5:17 PM

Subject: Re: [Overland] Re: Fw: Defender Puma's electronic traction control

---

No virus found in this incoming message.

Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

Version: 9.0.864 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3232 - Release Date: 11/01/10 21:34:00

[Neale Penman]

 

Yes Bruce,  I can’t see why you’d want to turn the TC  off. I know the old systems could allow any spinning wheel quite a few rotations before it was braked and that might have contributed to a bit of digging in, then when the TC finally kicked in you’d have a half sunk wheel which would now be an anchor. The new system seems to tolerate only about a quarter turn at max so the TC by itself is not going to dig you in. Of course, the TC is not idiot proof. If there is absolutely no traction available then it will probably dig you in just as quickly as two fully locked diffs will J

It is worth remembering that the sand hall sand is super soft and absolutely dry and fluffy.  Unfortunately it’s also only about 60 metres long so it doesn’t give you any sense of what might happen over a longer distance or on a gradient like a dune.

 

I do recall that the system settings on the D4 favour the central and rear electronic diffs over the TC for sand, but the Puma has the manual central diff lock anyway, which of course was engaged. I have to admit I wasn’t listening very carefully to the detailed system description of the D4 as my primary objective for the day was to try out the Puma.

 

Tyres had a normal bulge on the side walls, no evidence that they’d been deflated for the day.

 

Cheers

Neale

 

 

 

 

Neale Penman || Confluence || Applied research| 082 468 6766 | 011 807 7576 | www.confluence.co.za | ne...@confluence.co.za

 

From: overlan...@googlegroups.com [mailto:overlan...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Turner
Sent: 02 November 2010 05:18 PM
To: overlan...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Overland] Re: Fw: Defender Puma's electronic traction control

 

Sorry another question Neale, did you deflate the tyres?

[ca...@matool.co.za]

So when you buying one Neale?

Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device

---

From: "Neale Penman" <npe...@mweb.co.za>

Sender: overlan...@googlegroups.com

Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 18:40:14 +0200

To: <overlan...@googlegroups.com>

ReplyTo: overlan...@googlegroups.com

Subject: RE: [Overland] Re: Fw: Defender Puma's electronic traction control

[Neale Penman]

Maybe I’ll make Bruce an offer for his when its got some scratches on it in a few years time J

Still very happy with ‘Blix the td5 and I’ve only had him for 6 years now .....

 

Went to see  a swanky financial services firm in Sandton this afternoon. As usual I had the choice between the platkar and the defender who’s still full of mud from the weekend. Man, I love parking my “old” defender between the porsches J

Cheers

Neale

 

---

No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

Version: 10.0.1153 / Virus Database: 424/3233 - Release Date: 11/02/10

[Bruce Turner]

Great thanks....I need to get out somewhere to test it...I can not wait.

Rgds
Brucet

On 11/2/10, ca...@matool.co.za <ca...@matool.co.za> wrote:
> So when you buying one Neale?
> Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device
>

> | <http://www.confluence.co.za/> www.confluence.co.za |
> <mailto:mic...@confluence.co.za> ne...@confluence.co.za

>
>
>
> From: overlan...@googlegroups.com
> [mailto:overlan...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Turner
> Sent: 02 November 2010 05:18 PM
> To: overlan...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Overland] Re: Fw: Defender Puma's electronic traction control
>
>
>
> Sorry another question Neale, did you deflate the tyres?
>
>
>
> Rgds
>
> BruceT
>
> On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 1:24 PM, Neale Penman <npe...@mweb.co.za> wrote:
>
> Hi Bruce
>
> Played with the demo Puma in the special sand hall at Gerotek while you guys
> were batting around the mountain.
>
> TC worked absolutely effortlessly through the thick loose sand. We cheated
> and dropped the speed right down to an idle crawl but the vehicle kept
> moving along nicely.
>
> Then we did the speed and slam brakes in the sand trick. Nice mountains in
> front of all 4 tyres, but the Puma pulled itself away with aplomb.
>
>
>
> The same trick wasn't quite as successful in the D4, but a short reverse
> solved the problem.
>
> Then someone decided to do the same in the Freelander. Eish, there was a lot
> of pushing and swearing J
>
> Cheers
>
> Neale
>
>
>
>
>
> _____
>

> No virus found in this message.

> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com/>

> Version: 10.0.1153 / Virus Database: 424/3232 - Release Date: 11/01/10
>
> --
> DO YOU WANT TO UNSUBSCRIBE ? Then send a blank email to:
> overland-foru...@googlegroups.com

> <mailto:overland-forum%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>

>
> 4x4's and other stuff for sale:
> http://www.overland.co.za/phpBB3/viewforum.php?f=2
>
>
>
> --
> DO YOU WANT TO UNSUBSCRIBE ? Then send a blank email to:
> overland-foru...@googlegroups.com
>
> 4x4's and other stuff for sale:
> http://www.overland.co.za/phpBB3/viewforum.php?f=2
>
> _____
>

[Bruce Turner]

:) sorry I plan to keep one for a very long time....:)

Rgds
Brucet

On 11/2/10, Neale Penman <npe...@mweb.co.za> wrote:
> Maybe I'll make Bruce an offer for his when its got some scratches on it in
> a few years time J
>
> Still very happy with 'Blix the td5 and I've only had him for 6 years now
> .....
>
>
>
> Went to see a swanky financial services firm in Sandton this afternoon. As
> usual I had the choice between the platkar and the defender who's still full
> of mud from the weekend. Man, I love parking my "old" defender between the
> porsches J
>
> Cheers
>
> Neale
>
>
>
> _____
>

> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 10.0.1153 / Virus Database: 424/3233 - Release Date: 11/02/10
>

[Jakes Louw]

Thanks Dave.