Land Rover - another sad story
Martin Bremer
I bought another Disco TD5 the other day, reason being that I sort-of understand them by now and I did not want to go through the learning curve of finding the best spares etc. with another brand. This particular vehicle (Dirk Erasmus’) had all the extra’s that I needed, and it is a nice clean car that has done 80,000 km, plus maintenance plan up to Jan ’10, or 100,000 Km.
Seeing that it is still under warranty (full extended service plan), I thought I’ll take it to Land Rover Centurion to have a couple of things looked at.
BIG MISTAKE. I am so annoyed with myself for thinking that I might receive decent service from Land Rover. Maybe, just maybe, I thought, things might have changed since 2002, when I had my last “factory warranty” vehicle with them. Maybe things have changed since the days when they refused to fix the oil leaks, because I reported a gearbox leak but I did not specify (or guessed) that they had to look at the transfer box as well, so they only fixed the “main rear-end whatever seal”, and sorry, you have now done 105,000 Km so the car is out of warranty!
Maybe things would have changed since 7 years ago when they told me to wait 2 weeks to fix a starter, under warranty, because of there is a waiting list. The list goes on and on, factory faults not being recalled, ABS sensors, broken manifolds, more oil leaks, clutches, gearboxes, oil in the harness, broken chassis, traction control not working, CDL being removed, then being re-introduced, seized pulley’s, blown turbo’s, more manifold problems etc etc.
Back to 2009.
I asked someone to drop the car off with Land Rover Centurion on the 4th of May. They, of course, said that I did not have a booking and that it would take 2 weeks before they can look at the car! I sent a list with everything that needed to be looked at and in the end it took them a week to go through my list and put a quote together for several “off the shelf” items, such as harnesses, window regulators etc.
Because the policy is underwritten by Motorite, it is easy enough for Land Rover to replace anything they can think of. I reported that the clutch is very soft and needs to “pumped” from time to time. I even suggested that maybe they should check the master and slave cylinders, but they quoted on the cylinders and a new clutch.
My first reaction was that it is nice of them to want to replace the clutch, but Motorite asked for the clutch to be stripped for them to assess the damage. If the clutch were faulty, Motorite would pay for the parts and labour, but if it is not, Land Rover should cover the labour. Land Rover told me that I should pay for the labour if they are wrong in their assessment of what needs to repaired. In other words, they load the claim by adding a complete clutch but you, the client, must guarantee their assessment of what needs to be done.
At Land Rover’s ridiculous rates you can probably have a third party clutch fitted in any case, so what is the use of using them in the first instance? In the end, I told them that they should not take the clutch apart and that they should provide a solution for the “softness” of the pedal – I’m still waiting.
It has now been 16 working days since I dropped the car off with them and I am still given the run around between Linde, the client services manager, Hendrik, the workshop manager, Roger, the service manager, Kerry, the service consultant, secretaries and receptionists. I which I could adequately word my frustrations.
They have still not started with the car and when the Motorite assessor arrived to do his inspection today, he had to wait 45min just for them to show him the vehicle. The vehicle was not ready for his inspection, no covers removed, nothing done whatsoever.
I vaguely remember that the Centurion dealer principle (or was it Menlyn?) told the overland community many years ago that we should stop complaining about Land Rover’s bad service and give them a chance to get their house in order.
I wonder how many years they were thinking of........
Aubrey
Martin Bremer
Thanks, next time definitely.
My problem was that we were flying out to Blantyre and we had to arrange, in haste, for someone to take the car for me. I live 350km from JHB and it is not always that easy to get everything organized.
Dirk Erasmus
The sadness is also when I paid lots of notes (R20k+) last year neither LR nor Motorite had any issues in accepting my cash.
Dirk
Henk Coetzee
It left me wondering. Would Jacob Zuma's new service delivery helpline be able to address complaints about the private sector as well.
Marc Hall
Hennie Rautenbach
Sent from my iPhone
Graham B
Graham B
- Colin Lazarus - Operations Manager for Lazarus group (owners of Centurion LR) Try Colin at Co...@laz.co.za
- Peter Malungani - Executive Chairman of PEU Group who in turn own 50.1% of Lazarus. Try Peter at ad...@peu.co.za
- Andrew Daniel, Managing Director, Jaguar and Land Rover South Africa. With a little native cunning someone might be able to extract his email address too.
Fanie du Plessis
Graham B wrote:
> And I think here is the person to publish it to:
>
> Andrew Fuller - LandRover Centurion Dealer Principal
> - And...@LandRoverCenturion.co.za
> <mailto:And...@LandRoverCenturion.co.za>
>
>
Its no use, I have sent complaints to LR Pretoria about liquor stolen
out of my fridge while my Discovery was there and he (or his secratary)
was kind enough not to say " Huh" but replied with a " I have taken
notice" . If they even gave me a R1-50 made in China pen with a LR badge
on it would have been forgotten, or a spin in a RR Sport around the
block, but that constitutes some effort I think.
WTF! I still get angry when I just drive past that palace of incompetancy.
I have promised myself to try and deny them one LR sold for every Rand
they cheated me out of, so if you want to buy new or 2nd hand, DO NOT
BUY AT LAND ROVER PRETORIA in Menlynn.
They and LR SA does not honour the guarentees either.
Kind regards
Fanie
Hennie Rautenbach
I have promised myself to try and deny them one LR sold for every Rand
they cheated me out of, so if you want to buy new or 2nd hand, DO NOT
BUY AT LAND ROVER PRETORIA in Menlynn.
Martin Bremer
Thanks Graham
I think the Centurion DP already got involved, as he apparently is the one that refused to cover the labour on the clutch!
I will escalate the issue this morning.
<BR<BR
Hennie Rautenbach
Martin Bremer
Thanks Hennie, let’s see what happens this morning.
From: overlan...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:overlan...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Hennie Rautenbach
Sent: 26 May 2009 08:18 AM
To: overlan...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [Overland] Re: Land Rover - another sad story
Martin. I work a few blocks away from LR Centurion. If you need a runner to collect, store, deliver or drive the vehicle somewhere (or any other logistics) for that matter. Please shout. I am able to assist and offer secure parking for your car.
Des Westcott
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.39/2133 - Release Date: 05/25/09 08:16:00
Mike Nieuwoudt
‘Here lies Arthur C. Clarke, he never grew up and did not stop growing.’
Fanie du Plessis
Des Westcott wrote:
> Are Dealer Principals involved with maintenance / workshop issues? It
> has been my experience (no experience in Land Rover dealerships
> though) that Dealer Principals run the sales teams - sometimes one for
> new cars and one for second hand. His function is sales and
> overseeing the deals that the salesmen make. The workshop is run by a
> workshop foreman who is overseen by a Service Manager with (hopefully)
> a technical background. He should be the one making decisions on
> clutches etc. The Dealer Principal and Service Manager's functions
> should not overlap.
>
>
>
The best the Service manager at Pta LR could tell me was that somebody
was not telling me the whole truth (but he would not say more), and he
seemed powerless to make any decisions other than how many cars he books
in for the day and to source the spares for it.
Kind regards
Fanie
Fanie du Plessis
I have no experience with them, but share similar gripes with PTA LR.
Boikot the Centurion guys as well it seems :-)
Fanie
Martin Bremer
The car was handed over to Ketty who said that there is a two week waiting list but they will try to put a quote together "in between the other work".
(I have attached my original list. It should not take more than an hour to put a quote together).
A week later I called Kerry told me that they have a quote and will submit it to Motorite. Three days or so later she said I should speak to the service manager, Roger. Another couple of days later I was getting fed up and asked to speak to someone "higher up". I was told to contact Linde, the client services manager, who told me that all Roger's duties have been handed over to Hendrik, the workshop manager.
Phew..... I called Hendrik who sounded helpfull but clearly did not know history or what was going was on. Back to Linde, now a few more days later, who then informed me that I have to pay if they have to strip the clutch.
No one bothered to attend to any of the other issues in the meantime. Clearly a case of no-one taking responsibility and, in my opinion, they have too many managers that are not empowered to make any decisions.
Here is my list given to them on the 4th of May, you will note that it is not that extensive at all.
Hallo Dirk & Edward
I have asked Edward Adcock, who is copied on this mail, to drop the Land Rover off at Land Rover Centurion or Menlyn. He will get the service manager's name and send it through to you so that you can please arrange for the maintenance items to be repaired. They should ignore the items that fall outside of the maintenance plan.
The following items need attention:
1.Clutch - loss of pressure and must be 'pumped' from time to time to engage the gears. (probably the slave cylinder or clutch itself as it "bites" very low) Set the clutch for normal operation.
2.Fuse Box - the people that installed the box did not have new plugs to replace the melted ones. Please check all plugs at rear of Fuse Box, check for fault codes and reset red "SRS" light. (Maybe you can ask LR if they have ever had a problem like this before, as we still have not found the cause of the melted FB)
3.Oil leak - probably the tappet cover seal but please check for all oil leaks. Please ask them to check the top injector harness for oil (especially in the cable where it connects with the ECU harness).
4.Drivers Window - slow when being closed
5."Squeaky" sound emanating from the dashboard when driving
6.There is a massive gap between the Windscreen and the outer frame (on the outside between the wipers). It looks as if the outer frame needs to be replaced.
7.Wind noise on drivers and front passenger doors
8.The lights below the climate control does not come on
9.Brake pedal rubber missing
10.Please ask them to check all the pulleys, tensioners and bearings on the front of the engine for proper operation, especially the air conditioner and main fan.
-----Original Message-----
From: overlan...@googlegroups.com [mailto:overlan...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Fanie du Plessis
Sent: 26 May 2009 08:48 AM
To: overlan...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [Overland] Re: Land Rover - another sad story
BruceT
110...think I will keep to original plan and buy a plat car for
everyday use......
Rgds
Bruce Turner
>
> - Show quoted text -
Optirite
Mike Cliff
Marc Hall
BruceT
to my new gmail account and then to my new cell phone............baby
steps!!!
Mike please mail me direct on bjturner5 at gmail dot com if you are
still interested in my old mans cruiser.....
Rgds
Bruce
On May 26, 11:13 am, Marc Hall <isiny...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 'bout bloody time you came back here boyjie
> #
>
> mh
>
Marc Hall
BruceT
some.......
Rgds
Bruce
On May 26, 11:27 am, Marc Hall <isiny...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I still have some bicycle brackets on the roof rack that you wanted.....
>
> mh
>
>
>
>
>
> > Thanks (mad) Mike and Marc..... :) Now to try and get the emails sent
> > to my new gmail account and then to my new cell phone............baby
John
Welcome back. What you up to?
-----Original Message-----
From: overlan...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:overlan...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of BruceT
Sent: 26 May 2009 12:32 PM
To: overland-forum
A.H. (Eric) Sommer
Thanks Marc.....I was given two so I kind of forgot you had
some.......
>>
Marc - charge him storage!
;)
A.H. (Eric) Sommer
+27 86 530 6642 (Fax)
+27 82 492 9272 (cellular)
callto:ZR6ETR (Skype ID Mobile)
ZR6...@GMail.com
Graham B
- Do not get emotional.
- Understand exactly what the standard and/or extended warranty says. If it says the owner is responsible to pay for oil & fluids used during a repair then don't lose your cool when they ask you to pay for oil & fluids. If you think there are special circumstances then quietly explain that but don't expect them to ignore the wording of the warranty statement.
- If the warranty statement says something is warranted until say 100,000 km then you have zero warranty at 105,000 km. I repeat zero.
- Many manufacturers and dealers may be willing to provide some support outside the warranty period as a gesture of goodwill. Some may call it policy, some may call it goodwill or other names. But every manufacturer has an account for this.
- Your ability to tap the goodwill account will depend on how well you handle the situation. Emotions, threats, unreasonable expectations will likely get you zero. Remember, this is optional on their part.
- In the goodwill period expect to make some contribution toward the repair. For instance, if a reasonable expectation from X component was/is 100,000 km but it only reached 80,000 km but is outside the warranty period then you may be asked to pay for half or even 80% of the repair cost (80/100). Remember, the vehicle is outside of warranty so they do not have to pay anything. Anything they do pay is a gesture of goodwill, if you like they are investing in the relationship with you.
- Be honest and do not exaggerate. If the book says you can tow 1500 kg and you are well known for towing a Super Gazumper camping trailer with fridge, two tensts, a couple of weeks worth of fuel etc, etc then don't tell him you've been towing an aluminium Venter to the rubbish dump. Believe me, they will figure this out and telling lies destroys whatever sympathy they may have had.
- Be sure all conversations are very quickly minuted in writing. That means, you have a conversation then summarise it in writing immediately afterwards and email it to them with a request for them to acknowledge receipt or accept it as an accurate record of the conversation.
- Be reasonable. Intermittent faults are by nature difficult to diagnose. If by following the logical fault finding tree (as determined by the manufacturer) they do not find the fault then there is no point becoming emotional about it. That is the nature of intermittent faults.
- Be understanding about availability of space and servicemen. If they are sold out ask them what options might be available to have the work completed out of normal hours, can they loan you a vehicle or somehow help you solve your problem
- When seeking service work ensure you describe in writing exactly what you want done and what they should do if they discover other things that may be required. This is important.
- Try as hard as possible to be hard on the problem and easy on the person. If you get emotional or begin to question a person's competence then people will not take you seriously. Whenever possible focus on the process, e.g. "The quality control process is inadequate because it allowed the serviceman to use the incorrect type of grease."
- If you do not get satisfaction explain to the person that you are unsatisfied and you will need to elevate the problem. Ask them who their immediate superior is and move to him or her.
- Try hard not to make threats or issue ultimatums.
- Leave yourself and the service advisor / manager some manoevering room. Any person or animal will fight viciously if they feel they are in a corner with no other way out. Equally don't back yourself into a corner.
- Try not to alienate the people you are dealing with. They may be wrong, they may have mucked up but you will need them on side at some point.
- Do not elevate the issue until you have exhausted all reasonable avenues with the person who should have dealt with it and equally on up the line. But don't leave it so late that you have destroyed your elationship with the service advisor / manager etc. You may need them in the future and they are more likely to give an honest account of the situation if you have been reasonable.
- Ultimately take it to the Dealer Principal and then beyond if need be. If you have more or less followed the process above then you should not find it difficult to appeal to higher aurthority
- Do not get emotional.
Francois Visagie
Sent: 26 May 2009 14:22
To: overlan...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [Overland] Vehicle Service Dispute Suggestions
I am not in the motor industry but work in an industry that has a similar structure and sometimes similar issues. (But I'd like to believe a better attitude toward customer service.)It is true a Dealer Principal would not expect to get involved with service issues on a daily basis. But in the manufacturers eyes the Dealer Principal is the person they hold responsible for delivering service to the customers, and that includes sales, parts, mechanical service, customer relationships etc.Dealer Principals will typically not be happy when they get dragged into a service dispute. But more likely irate with their own people as they have failed to manage a customer situation.Some suggestions for dealing with vehicle service issues.
- << snip >>
Peter Tiedt
Thanks Graham
This has gone into my “Saved” folder!!!
PT
From:
overlan...@googlegroups.com [mailto:overlan...@googlegroups.com] On
Behalf Of Graham B
Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2009 2:22 PM
To: overlan...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [Overland] Vehicle Service Dispute Suggestions
I am not in the motor industry but work in an industry that has a similar structure and sometimes similar issues. (But I'd like to believe a better attitude toward customer service.)
Henk Coetzee
- If the warranty statement says something is warranted until say 100,000 km then you have zero warranty at 105,000 km. I repeat zero.
- Be sure all conversations are very quickly minuted in writing. That means, you have a conversation then summarise it in writing immediately afterwards and email it to them with a request for them to acknowledge receipt or accept it as an accurate record of the conversation.
- Be understanding about availability of space and servicemen. If they are sold out ask them what options might be available to have the work completed out of normal hours, can they loan you a vehicle or somehow help you solve your problem
- Try as hard as possible to be hard on the problem and easy on the person. If you get emotional or begin to question a person's competence then people will not take you seriously. Whenever possible focus on the process, e.g. "The quality control process is inadequate because it allowed the serviceman to use the incorrect type of grease."
- If you do not get satisfaction explain to the person that you are unsatisfied and you will need to elevate the problem. Ask them who their immediate superior is and move to him or her.
- Leave yourself and the service advisor / manager some manoevering room. Any person or animal will fight viciously if they feel they are in a corner with no other way out. Equally don't back yourself into a corner.
- Try not to alienate the people you are dealing with. They may be wrong, they may have mucked up but you will need them on side at some point.
- Do not elevate the issue until you have exhausted all reasonable avenues with the person who should have dealt with it and equally on up the line. But don't leave it so late that you have destroyed your elationship with the service advisor / manager etc. You may need them in the future and they are more likely to give an honest account of the situation if you have been reasonable.
- Ultimately take it to the Dealer Principal and then beyond if need be. If you have more or less followed the process above then you should not find it difficult to appeal to higher aurthority
- Do not get emotional.
One of the best approaches to problems that I've heard of was a description of someone walking in with a gun in one hand and a lawyer in the other.
Henk
Henk Coetzee
Francois Visagie
From: overlan...@googlegroups.com [mailto:overlan...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Henk Coetzee
Sent: 26 May 2009 15:04
To: overlan...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [Overland] Re: Vehicle Service Dispute Suggestions
Henk Coetzee
Mike White
colins email addie is correct per mail below, andrew fuller was DP when last checked but you need either LR Centurion guys to put pressure (Gerhard or Colin) or LR SA.
A contact you might want to try is Roland Reid (LR SA Marketing and Sales Director - rre...@ford.com
else Andrew Daniels PA is wtal...@ford.com or tel 012 842 3202
Good luck!
- Colin Lazarus - Operations Manager for Lazarus group (owners of Centurion LR) Try Colin at Co...@laz.co.za
- Peter Malungani - Executive Chairman of PEU Group who in turn own 50.1% of Lazarus. Try Peter at ad...@peu.co.za
- Andrew Daniel, Managing Director, Jaguar and Land Rover South Africa. With a little native cunning someone might be able to extract his email address too.
Henry Townsend
My take on “systems” put into place today in service delivery is that they are designed to allow lesser qualified (trained and paid) personnel to try and handle queries problems etc. Invariably you have to explain to someone who probably knows less about the problem than what you do. I have to deal with almost on a daily basis with the likes of JHB City Power, Eskom and the likes. Try their call centres. You invariably deal with folk in this situation that don’t even know what a watt, kW or kVA is. But they are telling you how it is going to be. When it comes to service complaints it invariably relates to money and refund of money or credits. These cost saving “Systems” are put into place to slow this return of cash flow to the correct party.
My simple understanding of service and service delivery in modern society is all money related, ways of slowing the process down to even avoiding responsibility and now refunds at all. We must thank the accountants (my apologise to any of you on this site for generalizing) of this world for this philosophy and who have successfully taken over business – and it a lot of cases do not even understand the workings of the business. They just see it as a method of creating revenue flow. And now our American friends have allowed their greed to mess the whole world up as well.
What is the old adage? Money is the root of all evil?
HenryT
Martin Bremer
Thanks, I had a positive response from Craig (Centurion DP) yesterday and it looks as if they are now at last starting with the vehicle.
Mike_R
> Somewhere there should be a chief in charge, the head honcho, the main man
> that counts,
> he's the guy that should be hunted down and to complain to, he should be
> the guy empowered
> to kick arse when ANYBODY screw up in his dealership. This elusive guy
> does not seem to
> exist at LR Centurion?
Brings to mind attempts by Andy Gray (late) back in 2005 - when at a
considerable cost -
he resorted to taking out a half page spread in The Cape Times, this with an
'open letter' to
the MD of Land Rover (SA).
http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=29997&m=310523&v=e
Have it on fairly good authority that the company 'fixed' the problem by
firing the call-centre
operator, little wonder that nothing would seem to have changed here!
Mike_R