ZX-750....PROBLEMS WITH A SHOP!!!
W. Andrew Cassie
I live outside of Ottawa and have been having problems with a local shop
for quite some time. They refuse to accept any responsibility for
the things they do to my bike.
I have always paid my bills, but continue to get mislead over the phone and
the work is of unrespectable quality. Just as an example;
I told them I was coming in to pick up my bike. Next day, I arrived and there
was no manager, no mechanic, and only a new parts person that I had never met
before. I had to spend two hours outside the shop trying to get my bike
running, the bill was over $600.00, and the ZX-7 sounded like a sick cow, and
barely idled at 600rpm, then stalled. They had done the carb work. There
were too many things wrong to mention so, we loaded the bike into the trailer
and took it home.
I want to know if anyone has any advice. I have had so many amazing problems
with this shop that Sunday (June 23), I wrote the whole story
out summarizing the fascts of the problems and its an eight page msword
document.
Is there a posting spot for legal advice, on stuff like this??
Can I post the file to warn others of my problems???
I will check back for postings, and I can be emailed as well.
THANK YOU for any help. I'm in the dark about what I can do to
get a fair solution to these problems. I feel like I'm walking into a
legal minefield without knowing the rules.
--
" To ride is an appreciation \\ W. Andrew Cassie
of physics serenity \\ Carleton, U.
in the chaos of existence." \\ Ottawa, Ontario
-Einstein, on his Sachs-Huret 3-speed \\ Canada, N. Am.
Peter Harper
You can talk to the Better Business Bureau. Which shop was it? Telling
people about bad experiences is one of the best ways of dealing with bad
service. A shop doesn't do well if people don't go, so use word-of-mouth
the shop. Get angry with the management.
If the situation is really bad perhaps Small Claims Court. This would be
the route if you feel you can prove that they acually failed to complete
the job satisfactorily. You would need some sort of confirmation from
anther shop though I think.
Also, you said you had been having trouble with them for quite some time.
Stop going back. If they won't fix a problem, give somebody else your money.
Just my two cents.
W. Andrew Cassie(ar...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA) writes:
> I live outside of Ottawa and have been having problems with a local shop
> for quite some time. They refuse to accept any responsibility for
> the things they do to my bike.
<snip>
--
Peter Harper XS650 |
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada | I'm just here for the complimentary
bo...@freenet.carleton.ca | sandwiches...
har...@algonquinc.on.ca |
Elie R. Daccache
W. Andrew Cassie (ar...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA) writes:
> his story would be that I was harassing him. He started speaking
> 'legaleese' and said he had been through this many time before.
...not too surprised.. :)
Phil Warland
> figure how to get it appended to an article, I'll post it. It's seven pages
> long and simply unbelievable. I'm going to try to get in touch with a
> lawyer tomorrow.
>
You know, there's a saying out there that goes like this:
If you get good products and service you'll tell two friends.
If you don't you'll tell a hundred.
Well we are listening....
Phil.
P.S. Amnisty(sp) International works like this.
--
| Phil "Lord Kazzoo" Warland | Bike: '84 V65 Sabre "The Beast" |
| ac...@freenet.carleton.ca | Car: '89 Mustang "Bessie" |
| The Renby Group Inc. | Si~Phi Industries Si...@igs.net |
| Disclaimer: My opinions have nothing to do with what I think!! :-) |
Ron Jette
> He also said that he could theoretically say that I had verified
> all the work and charges with him over the phone (a total lie). And that
> his story would be that I was harassing him. He started speaking
> 'legaleese' and said he had been through this many time before.
W. Andrew Cassie *didn't* write:
The friggin' name of the shop!
--
Ron Jette, Writer |\/| 1100 Virago
tri...@magi.com |\/| Writing and Wriding - Life is good!
Peter Harper
> and it turns out the manager that I had been dealing with is the owner. He
> basically said if I wanted the bike fixed properly I'd have to bring it
> in again (and likely pay more).
> He said that;
> "if they [another shop] touch it, our resposibility stops there."
But you have just told us that they have denied all responsibility anyway
so what difference does it make. You have basically said that the shop has
denied responsibility, and if you take it to another shop they will deny
responsibility again. So it sounds like you owe them nothing, but you owe
yourself all you can get. Take it to another shop. Get it fixed properly.
And then if the situation is well documented and clear, take them to small
claims court using the evidence from the shop who fixed it properly.
This is your right.
> He also said that he could theoretically say that I had verified
> all the work and charges with him over the phone (a total lie).
Yes but if you had made that verification then you wouldn't have had
reason to take him to small claims court would you.
> And that his story would be that I was harassing him. He started speaking
> 'legaleese' and said he had been through this many time before.
So talk legalese back to him. He is trying to scare off an unsatisfied
customer. As he has probably had to before.
"If you demand fair treatment I'm going to take you to court!"
That doesn't make sense and it violates your rights as a consumer.
> We all left seeing that this was going nowhere. We went to the police to
> check what we could do. There appear to be no 'exact' criminal charges in
> this. All I can do is go to civil court. I have to get the bike running by
> then end of July, but I don't know if I can legally bring it to a shop.
> The officer also said that if I brought the bike back to the shop they
> (theoretically could put a mechanics lein on it for looking at it. I'm
> definitely not bringing my bike back since they have hacked on it enough.
Of course he can put a lien on it if you don't pay for work done. Take it
elsewhere and get it done right. Then take that info and do something with it.
> I also want to post my story but its in a microsoft word format, when I
> figure how to get it appended to an article, I'll post it.
In word you can do a 'save as', and specify the format (text). Then you
have a file in a format for posting.
> It's seven pages
> long and simply unbelievable. I'm going to try to get in touch with a
> lawyer tomorrow.
Why don't you post the shops name? We should know if there is someone like
this around.
Dave Dal Farra
>You know, there's a saying out there that goes like this:
>
>If you get good products and service you'll tell two friends.
Why Phil, so you can fax the shop his document with out his permission?
I still can't walk into the Goodluck Centre without really "curt" service.
I'm road tripping to Rockland these days courtesy of someones favour
after I complained about a shop. :( No wonder he's tight lipped.
Dave Dal Farra (gpz...@nortel.ca) "I was moving so fast I started
Nortel Technology using Him as a braking marker"
Audio Design Group FJ1200/GPz750
Peter Harper
Dave Dal Farra (gpz...@bnr.ca) writes:
> In article <4qtrrl$2...@freenet-news.carleton.ca> Phil Warland,
> ac...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA writes:
>>You know, there's a saying out there that goes like this:
>>
>>If you get good products and service you'll tell two friends.
>>Well we are listening....
>
> Why Phil, so you can fax the shop his document with out his permission?
> I still can't walk into the Goodluck Centre without really "curt" service.
> I'm road tripping to Rockland these days courtesy of someones favour
> after I complained about a shop. :( No wonder he's tight lipped.
I have seen things here and have sent copies to the stores in
question. Both good things, and bad. It is one thing for us to tell each
other about good and bad service. But if we tell the store that this
discussion is happening then there is a chance that they may revise their
bad attitude, or continue a good attitude.
I think we have to remind stores that word of mouth is alive and active.
And that their livelyhood depends on pleasing customers.
Glenn Longhurst
>
>Peter Harper (bo...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA) wrote:
>
>
>: You can talk to the Better Business Bureau. Which shop was it? Telling
>: people about bad experiences is one of the best ways of dealing with bad
>: service. A shop doesn't do well if people don't go, so use word-of-mouth
>: the shop. Get angry with the management.
>
>the shop know you have posted the message here where 100's of people (heh)
>will read it.
>
>Unfortunately the Better Business Bureau isn't worth beans now-a-days. A
>year or so ago the Federal association was trying to kick a bunch of the
>local joints out of the bureau for gross incompetance and I believe there
>were some fraud charges as well. They use to be all bark and no bite....
>now they don't even have a bite. Basically all they do is send a letter to
>the company stating that a greivance had been registered with them.... big
>eff'n deal.
>
>
>_____
>.oooO / ) ( \ Oooo. Mr. Geoff "No longer between bikes" Hamer DoD#1492
>( ) / ( ) \ ( ) Past Virago owner.... Current V-Max owner
> \ ( ( ) ( ) ) / Visit Canada, see our fjords, ride on our Icephalt
>--\_).oooO-Oooo.(_/--- gha...@ingenia.com. Ottawa, Canada
>
>
>
FYI, Consumer and Corporate affairs is useless aswell.
Glenn
Andy Pang
: I have seen things here and have sent copies to the stores in
: question. Both good things, and bad. It is one thing for us to tell each
: other about good and bad service. But if we tell the store that this
: discussion is happening then there is a chance that they may revise their
: bad attitude, or continue a good attitude.
Peter you've been a bad dude!
While the newsgroup is more or less a public forum it is not as
accessible as newspapers. Sometimes people would just like to make
comments that is targeted and beneficial to fellow bikers only but not
bike shops.
If you think sending articles to the shop will improve their practice,
you may consider (just out of courtesy) getting the original poster's
approval first. After all, if he/she chose not to send the letter to
the shop but the newsgroup, he/she may have a reason and if the shops
really give a ****, they can get a Freenet account and browse away.
We still don't know which shop it is as of now but judging from
original poster's story, and assume that it is true, I don't think the
shop will have any desire of improving, they apparently are
making/have made enough %-|
: I think we have to remind stores that word of mouth is alive and active.
: And that their livelyhood depends on pleasing customers.
Not in Ottawa. How many choices do we have on each particular brand?
Even tho we don't like some of their services and decided to do our
own work instead, most of us STILL NEED PARTS. :-(
I'm sure that your loveliness has done it with the best intentions but
if you are going to re-posted my articles, I really would like to know
first. Hmmm..., maybe I can just put "(c) 1996" in my .sig :-)
--
Andy Pang - not speaking for nobody (c) 1996
email: akl...@nortel.ca
Norm Young
akl...@bmers275.bnr.ca (Andy Pang) writes:
>Peter Harper (bo...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA) wrote:
>
>: I have seen things here and have sent copies to the stores in
>: question. Both good things, and bad. It is one thing for us to tell each
>: other about good and bad service. But if we tell the store that this
>: discussion is happening then there is a chance that they may revise their
>: bad attitude, or continue a good attitude.
>
>Peter you've been a bad dude!
>
>While the newsgroup is more or less a public forum it is not as
>accessible as newspapers. Sometimes people would just like to make
>comments that is targeted and beneficial to fellow bikers only but not
>bike shops.
>
Andy if you think this, or any other, newsgroup is not a public forum,
you should take a closer look at how internet newsgroups function.
Anything posted to a newsgroup is available to ANYBODY who choses to
read that group (provided his nntp server carries it of course). They
are distributed world wide regardless of what you put in the
distribution field of your post. That field is only used by some
news readers to filter out posts you don't want to read on a geographical
basis however the point is that you, as the originator of the post
have no control on the distribution of your post nor on who reads/uses
it. I'm sure you have noticed posts in ott.motos from people in the UK
and Australia.
There is no reason to suspect that some of the bike shops in town
don't read this group regularly. They may not, but the point is the
poster can never know where his post will end up. It *is* truly a public
forum and as such I see nothing whatsoever wrong with forwarding
information posted here to other groups or individuals. If you don't
want your words to be read by any particular individual or group, you
should consider using private E-Mail, a mailing list or some other form
of cummunication.
--
Norm Young | DoD #0770 | E-Mail: Norm....@crc.doc.ca
Communications | Tel: 1-613-990-8779 | Fax: 1-613-990-7987
Research Centre |
Ottawa, Ontario | No Disclaimer, No Quote
Geoff Hamer
: In article <4qtrrl$2...@freenet-news.carleton.ca> Phil Warland,
: >You know, there's a saying out there that goes like this:
: >
: >If you get good products and service you'll tell two friends.
: >Well we are listening....
: Why Phil, so you can fax the shop his document with out his permission?
: I still can't walk into the Goodluck Centre without really "curt" service.
: I'm road tripping to Rockland these days courtesy of someones favour
: after I complained about a shop. :( No wonder he's tight lipped.
Dave, if you are going to lodge a big greivance with a shop in a public
forum like this, I think you have to be prepared to not visit the shop
again or to get the dirty looks. Although I haven't seen Andrew's full
story here, it is obvious that he never wants to give this shop any of his
business again. In this case, why not burn your bridges?!?!?
If I was in Andrew's position I would tell the dealership flat-out that I
was going to post my version of the story to the net where everyone can
read it (while handing them a copy) and that they had three choices:
1) Get on the net and tell their version of the story.
2) Fix my bike properly and then I, in all fairness, will post to the net
that this has been done.
3) Do nothing, sit back, and wait for the faxes to come in.
It's really no different then going to the 'Fight Back' services they use
to have in newspapers.
Geoff Hamer
: Not in Ottawa. How many choices do we have on each particular brand?
: Even tho we don't like some of their services and decided to do our
: own work instead, most of us STILL NEED PARTS. :-(
Two words Andy: MAIL ORDER.
If you know exactly what you want, you can usually get it faster and with
about the same probability of getting the right part, through mail order.
Now, that being said, I still thing you are better off going to a good
dealership then going mail order. As a teenager I worked for my Dad's
company that sold aftermarket accessories for trucks and regular
customers were always given preferential treatment. At the same time, we
recognized that we had to bend over backwards to get those regular
customers.
After purchasing my bike this spring, I have returned to my dealership
many times for accessories and often brought friends with me. Because
they now treat me well when it comes time to pull out my wallet, I have
no reason to go to the mail order catalogs.
: I'm sure that your loveliness has done it with the best intentions but
: if you are going to re-posted my articles, I really would like to know
: first. Hmmm..., maybe I can just put "(c) 1996" in my .sig :-)
True, I think out of courticy a person should ask permission before
sending a posted complaint to a dealership.
However, if a person is going to give a dealership a real burning on the
net I think it's only fair that they give them a copy of what they are
about to post. Then the dealership shouldn't be suprised when others come
to them with a copy of it.
Dave Dal Farra
>I have seen things here and have sent copies to the stores in
>question. Both good things, and bad. It is one thing for us to tell each
>other about good and bad service. But if we tell the store that this
>discussion is happening then there is a chance that they may revise their
>bad attitude, or continue a good attitude.
Two points:
In my case, the post was to a private mailing list and I'm still REALLY
pissed about it.
Secondly, have you ever consderred that the tone of a "post" would be VERY
different than an officiasl complaint to a shop? In bitching about a
shops
service, the gloves are off, interpretations are used. An official
complaint
has a very different tone and purpose. The shops reaction would be very
different, as would the result.
If ANYONE faxes ONE of my posts to a shop, you can expect donuts in your
living room, and I don't mean the glazed variety.
Peter Harper
>>I have seen things here and have sent copies to the stores in
>>question. Both good things, and bad. It is one thing for us to tell each
>>other about good and bad service. But if we tell the store that this
>>discussion is happening then there is a chance that they may revise their
>>bad attitude, or continue a good attitude.
>
> Two points:
> In my case, the post was to a private mailing list and I'm still REALLY
> pissed about it.
Perhaps mail is a different issue. I was refering to this newsgroup though.
> Secondly, have you ever consderred that the tone of a "post" would be VERY
> different than an officiasl complaint to a shop? In bitching about a
> shops
> service, the gloves are off, interpretations are used. An official
> complaint
> has a very different tone and purpose. The shops reaction would be very
> different, as would the result.
But as others have said, a newsgroup is a public place. It is sort of like
posting a notice on a phone pole, and then being unhappy that someone
handed a copy to the dealer.
I agree, that a bitch session among friends is different then a composed
letter. But realisticly the dealer is quite likely to be browsing a local
newsgroup anyway. So if someone posts to a public forum they should
reasonably expect that their posting could be seen by anyone.
This is not a flaw. This is an asset. It means that the dealer is aware of
disapproving discussion (or approving discussion). The more open the
discussion, the more impact in might have.
> If ANYONE faxes ONE of my posts to a shop, you can expect donuts in your
> living room, and I don't mean the glazed variety.
This isn't realistic. A posting is a public thing. If this fellow with the
ZX-750 doesn't want to tell us the name of the store, that is his business.
Perhaps he doesn't feel comfortable doing so. But if he does tell us
the name in a posting, he would reasonably assume that someone *could* send
the posting to the dealer, or the dealer could log on and read it, or any
number of other things.
If there is something I want kept private, I call the person, or email them
personally. Then we arrange code words, and special hand signals. Next of
course come the initiation rights, and ritual condiment smearings.
Peter Harper
> : question. Both good things, and bad. It is one thing for us to tell each
> : other about good and bad service. But if we tell the store that this
> : discussion is happening then there is a chance that they may revise their
> : bad attitude, or continue a good attitude.
>
>
> While the newsgroup is more or less a public forum it is not as
> accessible as newspapers. Sometimes people would just like to make
> comments that is targeted and beneficial to fellow bikers only but not
> bike shops.
True.
> If you think sending articles to the shop will improve their practice,
> you may consider (just out of courtesy) getting the original poster's
> approval first. After all, if he/she chose not to send the letter to
> the shop but the newsgroup, he/she may have a reason and if the shops
> really give a ****, they can get a Freenet account and browse away.
I will consider getting permission next time. But if you post publicly,
then you should expect it to be read publicly.
It is similar to sitting around and saying, "I'm going to tell you 200
people a secret, but you must never tell anyone."
Or the time Claude ran naked down Bank Street yelling, "Don't look at
me!". It just doesn't work that way.
> We still don't know which shop it is as of now but judging from
> original poster's story, and assume that it is true, I don't think the
> shop will have any desire of improving, they apparently are
> making/have made enough %-|
Perhaps the shop is run by scum, but then we deserve to know about it so
we can avoid it. But as I said in another posting, that is up to the
fellow with the ZX-750.
> : I think we have to remind stores that word of mouth is alive and active.
> : And that their livelyhood depends on pleasing customers.
>
> Not in Ottawa. How many choices do we have on each particular brand?
> Even tho we don't like some of their services and decided to do our
> own work instead, most of us STILL NEED PARTS. :-(
But what you are saying is that we should accept being strung up by our
dangly bits. There are always options. When I want Yamaha parts, I still
go to the Kawi Goodtimes Center to get them.
> I'm sure that your loveliness has done it with the best intentions but
> if you are going to re-posted my articles, I really would like to know
> first. Hmmm..., maybe I can just put "(c) 1996" in my .sig :-)
My intent is only to make the world a lovelier place to live in. I
apologize for any harm I have caused, and hope that any people, or small
villages, I have mauled in the the process can get on with their lives as
soon as possible.
Andy Pang
: Andy if you think this, or any other, newsgroup is not a public forum,
: you should take a closer look at how internet newsgroups function.
No, Norm. I know it is "public" in the way you mentioned but still one
would need a terminal to read it. Unlike the Ottawa Express which you
can pick up almost everywhere, or the more popular channels like TV and
radio. That's what I meant.
Also agreed that one would have no control over where the articles
will end up and I specifically used the word "courtesy". Especially on
sensitive issues in a small community (motorcycling in Ottawa in this
case). You know, "it just would be nice if you don't".
Again, I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong. As I already
mentioned, shops can get the same information if they care, it ain't
no secret.
Email isn't completely safe either. If I don't want someone to know, I
just don't tell anyone.
And I also enjoy bugging Peter :-P
--
Andy Pang - not speaking for nobody, no one lets me...
email: akl...@nortel.ca
Dave Dal Farra
>Dave, if you are going to lodge a big greivance with a shop in a public
>forum like this, I think you have to be prepared to not visit the shop
Geoff,
Again, mine was NOT in a public forum. Secondly, people are baiting
Andrew to post, withgout the underlying message that it will be sent to
the shop by some "good samaritans". Not nice. Thirdly, I agree with
Andy,
parts are needed. Mail order is a bitch, I know probably better than
anyone.
Everytime I need a $25 part, why should I spend $25 in shipping
because some $!%! can't keep his nose out of my business? Getting
the right part mail order is usually a roll of the dice too. I've had
many experiences with this, its a about a 70/30 success rate. For
example, I talked with an exhaust maker this morning and he's going to
send
me a correct part for a pipe I just received that had the wrong part on
it.
Its a public forum, but does that mean someone has the right to act
irresponsibly with it? If you think it does, but be prepared to be shit
on for it.
Tim Warland
>
> ar...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (W. Andrew Cassie) wrote:
>
> <Sad story of motorcycle malpractice>
>
> >I also want to post my story but its in a microsoft word format, when I
> >long and simply unbelievable. I'm going to try to get in touch with a
> >lawyer tomorrow.
>
I remember some guy got on the net last year posting about some horrendous work
at a local bike shop which resulted in him driving an unsafe vehicle (and apparently
risking life and limb). I implored him to "name names", a week later we never heard
from him again.
Personally my vote is on Darotune. They f**ked my bike once over last year. I had
them change fork seals, tune it and change all fluids. With out exception they f**ked
up everything they touched. They replaced the kinked speedo cable but denied all
others even when I took the head off and brought it in to show the damage done.
Now I get a "preferred customer" discount at their competitors 8-P
I suspect the validity of Andrew Cassie's story. Put yourself in his shoes, would
you take your bike home on a truck, would you bring it back again?
Gears
Tim.
--
You'd better be doing something so that in the future
you can still say the good old days were good.
Ron Jette
> If there is something I want kept private, I call the person, or email them
> personally. Then we arrange code words, and special hand signals. Next of
> course come the initiation rights, and ritual condiment smearings.
Privacy? On the net? Even email or private mailing lists? I assume that
everything I post or write- and I mean EVERYTHING - will be seen by
everyone, including my mother. (Mom, if you're reading this, send money.) I
wouldn't say anything I wouldn't want the entire universe to know. If I want
something kept private, I stay the hell away from my computer. And an
ex-girlfriend by the name of Nancy.
Pass the ketchup...
--
Ron & Jacquie |\/| 1100 Virago