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RFQ - ott.jobs-computing/ott.jobs-noncomputing

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Sean Radford

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Dec 21, 1996, 3:00:00 AM12/21/96
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I would like to propose ott.jobs be split into two groups, possibly titled;

ott.jobs-computer
ott.jobs-regular
or
ott.jobs-computing
ott.jobs-noncomputing

I agree ott.jobs-regular sounds a little odd, but I'm unsure of what
would be the opposite of computers.

Ott.jobs currently is swamped with ads for computer software and technical
positions. Employers advertising other jobs, be they marketing, clerical
or scientific, find few non-computer people are reading. Few non-computer
people bother to read, on the other hand, because they can't wade through
the pages and pages of ads for systems analysts and programmers. I think
both groups would benefit from this group splitting.

As evidence of the demand I cite the following from the thread "regular
jobs" on ott.jobs.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Robert Houle <rho...@igs.net>
Newsgroups: ott.jobs

Why dont't we start a new news group, for the rest of us human, that are
looking for a job and are not Engineers or programmers.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: hkit...@ccs.carleton.ca (H.A. Kitchin)
Newsgroups: ott.jobs

GREAT IDEA !!!!!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: G Pilon <pil...@istar.ca>
Newsgroups: ott.jobs

Great idea!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: al...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Thomas Wilson)
Newsgroups: ott.jobs

Yes, excellent!!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: sgor...@chat.carleton.ca (Siobhan Gormley)
Newsgroups: ott.jobs

I usually don't like to make me too posts, but in this case I have to.
I have to agree with all of you, I think it would be a good idea to have
a separate one.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: dd...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Marc Neal)
Newsgroups: ott.jobs


I agree whole heartedly. so what happens now? I think we should have a
new news group called notech.jobs or somthing like that

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Michael Doucette <mdo...@istar.ca>
Newsgroups: ott.jobs
Good for you!

This is the best thing I have read on this group.

Viva la revolution

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: deepak...@offsbbs.com (Deepak Abrol)
Newsgroups: ott.jobs

Hey!! I'm just a high school student in grade 10, but I think that's a
wicked idea!! Students my age aren't ready to be engineers and
programmers, we need something better for the "regular people"

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: bta...@igs.net (Bill Taylor)
Newsgroups: ott.jobs

Hey! I too will through my vote into the ring in favour of this proposition.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: dwe...@cycor.ca (Don wells)
Newsgroups: ott.jobs

I think it is a great idea also but I have no idea how to go about
getting one setup. This has beena bee in my bonnet since I went on
line, jobs that I can't pronounce let alone apply for. Well I can
pronounce them but I don't know what 99% of them mean. I know alot of
friends that would use a nontech jobs news group if we had one.

Don Wells
--
Keep your face to the sunshine and you cannot see the shadows - Helen Keller

Matthew Darwin

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Dec 21, 1996, 3:00:00 AM12/21/96
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[note: followup to ott.config only]


In ott.config Sean Radford <ar...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:

> I would like to propose ott.jobs be split into two groups, possibly titled;

> ott.jobs-computer
> ott.jobs-regular
> or
> ott.jobs-computing
> ott.jobs-noncomputing

> I agree ott.jobs-regular sounds a little odd, but I'm unsure of what
> would be the opposite of computers.


In keeping with the naming conventions established for ott.forsale.*, may
I suggest:

- ott.jobs.computing
- ott.jobs.other

This allows for adding ott.jobs.somethingelse when the volume of
'somethingelse' postings becomes too much for ott.jobs.other.

I would also like to see:

- a specific charter for each group. For example,
- what kinds of jobs belong in "ott.jobs.computing"
- are postings by job agencies allowed?
- must the jobs be local, or are jobs in other locations ok?
- rules for cross-posting. Specifically, is it allowed? If so, under
what circomstances? (My personal opinion is that there should be no
crossposting allowed).


If you can clear up some of these points and come back with a nice
proposal, I'd be willing to support it.

For information on ott.* groups, see http://www.pinetree.org/ONAG/


> Ott.jobs currently is swamped with ads for computer software and technical
> positions. Employers advertising other jobs, be they marketing, clerical
> or scientific, find few non-computer people are reading. Few non-computer
> people bother to read, on the other hand, because they can't wade through
> the pages and pages of ads for systems analysts and programmers. I think
> both groups would benefit from this group splitting.


--
Matthew Darwin Westend Family Cinema
mat...@davin.ottawa.on.ca (home) cin...@flora.org
dar...@loran.com (work) http://www.flora.org/cinema/

Russell McOrmond

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Dec 21, 1996, 3:00:00 AM12/21/96
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In article <59focu$1...@bear.davin.ottawa.on.ca>,


Matthew Darwin <mat...@davin.ottawa.on.ca> wrote:
>In keeping with the naming conventions established for ott.forsale.*, may
>I suggest:
>
>- ott.jobs.computing
>- ott.jobs.other


I agree with this naming.


>- a specific charter for each group. For example,
> - what kinds of jobs belong in "ott.jobs.computing"
> - are postings by job agencies allowed?
> - must the jobs be local, or are jobs in other locations ok?
>- rules for cross-posting. Specifically, is it allowed? If so, under
> what circomstances? (My personal opinion is that there should be no
> crossposting allowed).

I too would like to see these. One of the things I have not liked
about the job postings is the number of non-ottawa postings. If I
wanted to accept a job outside of the region I would be reading ont.jobs
and so on.

I think job agencies are OK as long as they follow the geography of the
above. What I have not liked so far is that they seem to be posting
irrelevant and inappropriate jobs listings.

I don't mind crosspostings, as long as it's relevant. For instance, a
posting to an ott.* group that is crossposted to ont and can makes sence,
but if it is crossposted to tor.* then it is going to be for an 'out of
town' job which I 'personally' don't feel is appropriate.

Further thoughts?

>For information on ott.* groups, see http://www.pinetree.org/ONAG/

- --
Russell McOrmond, Consultant: <http://www.flora.org/russell/work/>
(Internet/Intranet server admin,CGI programming,Web,Email,News, ...)
Community Volunteer: <http://www.flora.org/> <http://www.ox.org/ox/>
Help fight Spam on the Internet! <http://www.vix.com/spam/>

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Matthew Darwin

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Dec 21, 1996, 3:00:00 AM12/21/96
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Russell McOrmond <rus...@flora.ottawa.on.ca> wrote:

> I don't mind crosspostings, as long as it's relevant. For instance, a
> posting to an ott.* group that is crossposted to ont and can makes sence,
> but if it is crossposted to tor.* then it is going to be for an 'out of
> town' job which I 'personally' don't feel is appropriate.

Sorry, I meant crossposting between ott.jobs.computing and ott.jobs.other.

Otherwise, I agree with you.

Sean Radford

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Dec 21, 1996, 3:00:00 AM12/21/96
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Matthew Darwin (mat...@davin.ottawa.on.ca) writes:
> In ott.config Sean Radford <ar...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
>> I would like to propose ott.jobs be split into two groups, possibly titled;
>
>> ott.jobs-computer
>> ott.jobs-regular
>> or
>> ott.jobs-computing
>> ott.jobs-noncomputing
>
>> I agree ott.jobs-regular sounds a little odd, but I'm unsure of what
>> would be the opposite of computers.
>

> In keeping with the naming conventions established for ott.forsale.*, may
> I suggest:
>
> - ott.jobs.computing
> - ott.jobs.other

Sounds good to me.

> This allows for adding ott.jobs.somethingelse when the volume of
> 'somethingelse' postings becomes too much for ott.jobs.other.
>
> I would also like to see:
>

> - a specific charter for each group. For example,
> - what kinds of jobs belong in "ott.jobs.computing"

Off the top of my head.

ott.jobs.computing is devoted to people seeking employment in jobs
directly related to computer hardware/software/communications development and
maintainance and employers or agencies searching for them. Any employer
or agency seeking employees in this area or any person offering his/her
services is free to advertise here. For those offering positions outside
the Ottawa Valley we request the subject line on the advertisement contain the
geographical area the job is located. Those interested in advertising
job openings or services not directly releated to the above should
access ott.jobs.other.

ott.jobs.other is devoted to people seeking employment in jobs not
directly related to computer hardware/software/communications development
and maintainance. Employers or persons interested in advertising or
pursuing advertisements in those areas should access ott.jobs.computing.
Employers or agencies may post job openings other than the above to
ott.jobs.other and persons seeking employment in any non-computer
field may offer their services here. Those offering positions outside
the Ottawa Valley are urged to state the geographic area in which
the job is located on the subject line of the post. Please do not
post job openings or services to both newsgroups.


> - are postings by job agencies allowed?
> - must the jobs be local, or are jobs in other locations ok?
> - rules for cross-posting. Specifically, is it allowed? If so, under
> what circomstances? (My personal opinion is that there should be no
> crossposting allowed).

If you mean between ott.jobs.computing and ott.jobs.other I agree
completely. However, crossposting to other .job groups should be
allowed. Many employers crosspost to a variety of .job groups and
might not take the time to post seperately. IMHO, most people seeking
jobs would probably prefer the crossposting to missing the job
entirely.

Sean

R.R. Knott Bookseller

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Dec 23, 1996, 3:00:00 AM12/23/96
to

Matthew Darwin (mat...@davin.ottawa.on.ca) writes:

Sean Radford wrote:
> I would like to propose ott.jobs be split into two groups, possibly titled;
> ott.jobs-computer
> ott.jobs-regular

Given the state of the economy these days how about:
ott.jobs-computer
and
ott.jobs-macjobs

----------------------------------------------------------------------
R.R. KNOTT (BOOKSELLER)
ON LINE CATALOGUE AT: http://www.cyberus.ca/~rrknott
"What if they build the information highway only to discover nobody
knows anything?"

Krishna E. Bera

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Dec 24, 1996, 3:00:00 AM12/24/96
to

Matthew Darwin <mat...@davin.ottawa.on.ca> wrote:

>In keeping with the naming conventions established for ott.forsale.*, =
may
>I suggest:=20
>
>- ott.jobs.computing=20
>- ott.jobs.other

A small quibble - I thought the convention was to create a ".misc"
group as a catchall. I agree with the split. =20

It will be handy to copy portions of the charter and FAQ from the
other jobs newsgroups, dealing with posting formats. Also, though I
don't like crossposting, I would prefer people do it by using multiple
newsgroups in one line rather than posting the individual message
several times. That way my newsreader can ignore the duplicates.

--
Krishna E. Bera, "Programmer on the loose"

Matthew Darwin

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Dec 27, 1996, 3:00:00 AM12/27/96
to

Sean Radford <ar...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:

> > - a specific charter for each group. For example,
> > - what kinds of jobs belong in "ott.jobs.computing"

> Off the top of my head.

Since there have been no comments, I guess everyone is on vacation or
it is close to what is required.

> ott.jobs.computing is devoted to people seeking employment in jobs
> directly related to computer hardware/software/communications development and
> maintainance and employers or agencies searching for them. Any employer
> or agency seeking employees in this area or any person offering his/her
> services is free to advertise here. For those offering positions outside
> the Ottawa Valley we request the subject line on the advertisement contain the

^^^^^^^^^^^^^

This is a vague concept. Does Ottawa Valley include places such as
Renfrew and Cornwall. Something a bit more specific might be better (e.g.
RMOC, Outaouais, Renfrew, Cornwall, Belleville, etc...)

> geographical area the job is located. Those interested in advertising
> job openings or services not directly releated to the above should
> access ott.jobs.other.

> ott.jobs.other is devoted to people seeking employment in jobs not
> directly related to computer hardware/software/communications development
> and maintainance. Employers or persons interested in advertising or
> pursuing advertisements in those areas should access ott.jobs.computing.
> Employers or agencies may post job openings other than the above to
> ott.jobs.other and persons seeking employment in any non-computer
> field may offer their services here. Those offering positions outside
> the Ottawa Valley are urged to state the geographic area in which
> the job is located on the subject line of the post. Please do not
> post job openings or services to both newsgroups.


This paragraph needs to be split into two pieces.

- Charter for ott.jobs.other
- Charter for ott.jobs.computing

I would also like to see them written so that they don't have to be
changed when ott.jobs.somethingelse is created.

> > - are postings by job agencies allowed?
> > - must the jobs be local, or are jobs in other locations ok?
> > - rules for cross-posting. Specifically, is it allowed? If so, under
> > what circomstances? (My personal opinion is that there should be no
> > crossposting allowed).
>
> If you mean between ott.jobs.computing and ott.jobs.other I agree
> completely. However, crossposting to other .job groups should be
> allowed. Many employers crosspost to a variety of .job groups and
> might not take the time to post seperately. IMHO, most people seeking
> jobs would probably prefer the crossposting to missing the job
> entirely.

Ok, could you write a line about what happens if people post to both
ott.j.c and ott.j.o? For example, will there be a program that will
autmatically cancel them? Are other types of retro-moderation acceptable?
[retro-moderation = automated cancelling by a program after they have
been posted]

Matthew Darwin

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Dec 27, 1996, 3:00:00 AM12/27/96
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R.R. Knott Bookseller <Prrk...@cyberus.ca> wrote:
> Matthew Darwin (mat...@davin.ottawa.on.ca) writes:
> Sean Radford wrote:
> > I would like to propose ott.jobs be split into two groups, possibly titled;
> > ott.jobs-computer
> > ott.jobs-regular

> Given the state of the economy these days how about:
> ott.jobs-computer
> and
> ott.jobs-macjobs

Even if this type of split was required, you'd still need ott.jobs.other.
There are other things than computer and macjobs.

Matthew Darwin

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Dec 27, 1996, 3:00:00 AM12/27/96
to

Krishna E. Bera <keb...@cyblings.on.ca> wrote:

> A small quibble - I thought the convention was to create a ".misc"
> group as a catchall. I agree with the split.

*.other was started in ott.* for some reason. I think it was to be clear
that anything in *.other does not belong in the others. I'm not sure who
was involved in the creation of ott.forsale.other... maybe they could
comment on the reasons for this.

The reason I am proposing .other rather than .misc is to conform to the
rest of the ott.* hierarchy.

> It will be handy to copy portions of the charter and FAQ from the
> other jobs newsgroups, dealing with posting formats.

Good point. I don't read *.jobs, so I'm not familar with this.

> Also, though I
> don't like crossposting, I would prefer people do it by using multiple
> newsgroups in one line rather than posting the individual message
> several times. That way my newsreader can ignore the duplicates.

This needs to be put into the charter as well.

Gordon Dewis

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Dec 29, 1996, 3:00:00 AM12/29/96
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Matthew Darwin (mat...@davin.ottawa.on.ca) wrote:
: Russell McOrmond <rus...@flora.ottawa.on.ca> wrote:

: > I don't mind crosspostings, as long as it's relevant. For instance, a
: > posting to an ott.* group that is crossposted to ont and can makes sence,
: > but if it is crossposted to tor.* then it is going to be for an 'out of
: > town' job which I 'personally' don't feel is appropriate.

: Sorry, I meant crossposting between ott.jobs.computing and ott.jobs.other.

Such crossposting would defeat the purpose of splitting ott.jobs.

--G

--
Gordon Dewis | WWW Virtual Library Geography Section is now at:
4th year Geography Hons | http://www.icomos.org/WWW_VL_Geography.html
Carleton University | NewForce.ca Sysadmin http://www.newforce.ca

Michael Richardson

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Dec 30, 1996, 3:00:00 AM12/30/96
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On 30 Dec 1996 02:06:41 GMT, Matthew Darwin <mat...@davin.ottawa.on.ca> wrote:
>Given that a large part of the Ottawa user base doesn't have access to
>NoCeM (NCF & CHAT), I would probably vote for cancel messages, at least
>to start with.

No. Start with NoCeM. They are trivially turned into local cancel messages.
Installing NoCeM on Spool is pretty easy.

- --
:!mcr!: | Network security consulting and
Michael Richardson | contract programming
WWW: <A HREF="http://www.sandelman.ottawa.on.ca/People/Michael_Richardson/Bio.html">m...@sandelman.ottawa.on.ca</A>. PGP key available.

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Russell McOrmond

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Dec 30, 1996, 3:00:00 AM12/30/96
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In article <5a783h$s...@bear.davin.ottawa.on.ca>,


Matthew Darwin <mat...@davin.ottawa.on.ca> wrote:
>Given that a large part of the Ottawa user base doesn't have access to
>NoCeM (NCF & CHAT), I would probably vote for cancel messages, at least
>to start with.

Both will likely be needed, at least in the short term. Once some
volunteer time becomes available I plan to set up NoCeM on FLORA, and
then disable the processing of cancel messages. Cancel messages are
just too easy to fake, and are impossible to validate.

I suspect the number of other sites disabling the processing of cancel
messages will grow.

- --
Russell McOrmond, Consultant: <http://www.flora.org/russell/work/>
(Internet/Intranet server admin,CGI programming,Web,Email,News, ...)
Community Volunteer: <http://www.flora.org/> <http://www.ox.org/ox/>
Help fight Spam on the Internet! <http://www.vix.com/spam/>

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Siobhan Gormley

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Dec 30, 1996, 3:00:00 AM12/30/96
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Gordon Dewis (gor...@pinetree.pinetree.org) wrote:
> Matthew Darwin (mat...@davin.ottawa.on.ca) wrote:
> : Russell McOrmond <rus...@flora.ottawa.on.ca> wrote:

> : > I don't mind crosspostings, as long as it's relevant. For instance, a
> : > posting to an ott.* group that is crossposted to ont and can makes sence,
> : > but if it is crossposted to tor.* then it is going to be for an 'out of
> : > town' job which I 'personally' don't feel is appropriate.

> : Sorry, I meant crossposting between ott.jobs.computing and ott.jobs.other.

> Such crossposting would defeat the purpose of splitting ott.jobs.

I have to agree that crossposting would defeat the very purpose of the split.
It needs to have the split so that the "other" jobs (meaning other than
computer-related) can be found more easily. Allowing computer-related jobs
into the "other" group or vice versa would show the futility of such a split
(IMO).

Siobhan

************************************************************************
Siobhan Gormley, Carleton University * X-Phile, Trek Fan, B-5er,
Ottawa, Canada * Disnophile, Dragon Posse,
Email address: sgor...@wabakimi.carleton.ca* Whovian, Hopeful Romantic,
http://chat.carleton.ca/~sgormle2 * Austenite*****************
************************************************************************
Feet smell? Nose runs? Hey, you're upside down!
************************************************************************

Matthew Darwin

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Dec 30, 1996, 3:00:00 AM12/30/96
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Sean Radford <ar...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:

> That would depend on what ONAG decides, wouldn't it? I'd have no trouble
> with retro-moderation if that is the prevailing opinion. If that's
> what you guys want I'll put it in.

As Russell says, it's up to the group membership to decide what they want.
Talk to the other people, collect some opinions, and come back with a
proposal. If it's feasable and has general support, it will likely be
accepted.

Matthew,
not an ONAG member,

Matthew Darwin

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Dec 30, 1996, 3:00:00 AM12/30/96
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Russell McOrmond <rus...@flora.ottawa.on.ca> wrote:

> The technology exists to do retromoderation, both with 'cancel'
> messages, and with NoCeM if desired. Let's discuss what we want to do
> with the groups, and then set up the technology to help us.

Given that a large part of the Ottawa user base doesn't have access to
NoCeM (NCF & CHAT), I would probably vote for cancel messages, at least
to start with.

--

Colin R. Leech

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Jan 5, 1997, 3:00:00 AM1/5/97
to

Russell McOrmond (rus...@flora.ottawa.on.ca) writes:
> The technology exists to do retromoderation, both with 'cancel'
> messages, and with NoCeM if desired. Let's discuss what we want to do
> with the groups, and then set up the technology to help us.

I support the concept of this proposed split.


--
##### |\^/| Colin R. Leech ag414 or crl...@freenet.carleton.ca
##### _|\| |/|_ Civil engineer by training, transport planner by choice.
##### > < Opinions are my own. Consider them shareware if you want.
##### >_./|\._< "If you can't return a favour, pass it on." - A.L. Brown

Colin R. Leech

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Jan 5, 1997, 3:00:00 AM1/5/97
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Russell McOrmond (rus...@flora.ottawa.on.ca) writes:
> Cancel messages are
> just too easy to fake, and are impossible to validate.

Couldn't cancel messages be validated using PGP, just as other posts
could be?

Russell McOrmond

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Jan 5, 1997, 3:00:00 AM1/5/97
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In article <5antp4$p...@freenet-news.carleton.ca>,


Colin R. Leech <ag...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
>Russell McOrmond (rus...@flora.ottawa.on.ca) writes:
>> Cancel messages are
>> just too easy to fake, and are impossible to validate.
>
>Couldn't cancel messages be validated using PGP, just as other posts
>could be?

Once you have designed the tools to allow this, you might as well
improve the utility of the tool at the same time.

On the NoCeM home page there is a page http://www.cm.org/about-cancels.html
that talks about a potential replacement. It doesn't seem to exist yet,
but the idea is great: A message would containt a 'challenge key' to
prove that you are the same person trying to delete a messages as who
sent it in the first place.

- --
Russell McOrmond, Consultant: <http://www.flora.org/russell/work/>
(Internet/Intranet server admin,CGI programming,Web,Email,News, ...)
Community Volunteer: <http://www.flora.org/> <http://www.ox.org/ox/>
Help fight Spam on the Internet! <http://www.vix.com/spam/>

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Michael Richardson

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Jan 5, 1997, 3:00:00 AM1/5/97
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On 5 Jan 1997 09:54:44 GMT, Colin R. Leech <ag...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
>Couldn't cancel messages be validated using PGP, just as other posts
>could be?

Cancel messages are processed inline by INN. Since they require
access to the history file to process this made sense. Putting PGP
verification in would be hopelessly slow.
However, the suggestion that for Cancel-Challenge: and Cancel-Key:
looks computationally feasible. NoCeM effectively accumulates cancels
into a larger group and runs it all asynchronously to normal news
processing. (I'm talking nocem-on-spool here. NoCeM by news reader
clearly uses the readers' CPU)

- --
:!mcr!: | Network security consulting and
Michael Richardson | contract programming
WWW: <A HREF="http://www.sandelman.ottawa.on.ca/People/Michael_Richardson/Bio.html">m...@sandelman.ottawa.on.ca</A>. PGP key available.

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Dec 11, 2023, 3:25:32 PM12/11/23
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