Great Success and Great Failure !! OSScamp Delhi 09

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narendra sisodiya

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Sep 6, 2009, 5:22:01 PM9/6/09
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       First of all, I would like to thanks the whole community for a successful osscamp. I specially want to thanks volunteers, presenter, organiser and sponsors to making a osscamp a great success. first time in osscamp I saw a video recording and this will help a lot because video will be available online very soon. I suggest to convert those videos in .ogg format and upload to http://www.open-video.org/ or http://openvideo.dailymotion.com/in .
       Basically there was a good community effort and we did at our best. I enjoyed many thing and many talks. Soon we will get many blogs with good points of osscamp and even I can also write 3 page on good points of osscamp but lets discuss what went wrong (basically the runtime errors) and how we can correct in next camps. ( Please take these suggestion in constructive and positive manner)

1. Presentation Formats : I saw many speaker (mainly #1day) were using presentation in ppt/pdf format. Speaker please take water and put in your eyes and first realise what exaclty you doing. Free and Open Source Community is based on certain principles and there is no use to say anything on FOSS without knowing the principle. ODP is proper standard for making presentation Or you can export to pdf file. In First day I saw speaker were using Windows OS with powerpoint for presentations. Many guys were laughing at this activity. Now Indian Govt is working on Open Standard Policy and It clearly speak on Open Standard and their need. you can check the work on Open Standard Policy http://fosscomm.in/OpenStandards , We must collect/create the presentation in odp format and put one laptop which has GNU/Linux Distro for presentations. We may allow to use Windows OS is camp in the worst case where some speaker has a specific demo which can run on Windows only. I would like pass this link to those speaker ( http://tinyurl.com/l9ldhm )

2. Presentation Copyrights : Almost all presentations in camp were not having any CC-BY-SA or similar license on slides. Guys we were there to share. Next time please make your presentation in one of the CC license.

3. Freeware : This was the most shameless activity done by abode persons in the camp. Their talk were mostly concentrated on the promotion of Adobe product , The person (I think Romil Mittal) came from adobe system for introducing Flex was trying to misguide the public. He has DISTRIBUTED some Abode product to student which is a "Frerware" -- student licence for using limited time period. He was telling that this is a "Free Software". A person working on Open Source in Abode do not know the difference between Free Software and Freeware. Somebody please send this link to that presenter. ( http://tinyurl.com/lfyevl ) Also I request all the student that If you have any self-respect or respect for FOSS community then please break that "Freeware" CD and put in the dustbin.

4. Schedule of presentations : We can use a whiteboard or paper kind of thing on which we put the time slots of 20 minutes. So for 8 hour , we have 24 slots and anyone can put this talk in the available slots. So we have have a schedule during the 1st workshop and we can announce the schedule or may be put on display. This will help audience to choose their desired talk and they and moveout from the room without having tension for missing their desired presentations.

Do we some more points. I request audience to make their honest feedback.


--
┌─────────────────────────┐
│    Narendra Sisodiya ( नरेन्द्र सिसोदिया )
│    R&D Engineer
│    Web : http://narendra.techfandu.org
│    Twitter : http://tinyurl.com/dz7e4a
└─────────────────────────┘

Realin

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Sep 6, 2009, 11:15:56 PM9/6/09
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@Narendra

I did not read your complete email but since you wrote something against Adobe guys that interests me. See I am not here to offend them, but why do we need to use such harsh term for that. They were at the camp and had distributed what they had to, right ? And do you think adobe needs promotion ? Who does not know adobe first of all ?

Before poking anyone like Romil Mittal, think he was a presenter who spare time for the community drove all the way from Noida to Dwarka, just cause we a bunch of organizers requested him to drop in.

Xeba(i dun remember the exact name) had its logo on all the slides of Scala presentation, so do we poke them as well ? Dude I do not know what you think this camp to be, but what I believe is when you are talking in terms of building a community you should not be harsh and so very nazi.

Regarding the slideshow in ppt format, what is the harm ? We cannot restrict people to use open source software for presenting at the camp ? Can we ? And if we are going to do that think we are spreading a wrong message in the community. We are a happy open source community who uses Open source software, we are not rigid bunch of jerks who tend to destroy Microsoft & its alike.

Just need you to be calm on your reactions, coz you were among the ones who were taking interest in driving the camp. So people will tend to follow you and I am sure no one wants to be extremist , does any one ?


--
Regards
Sachin Khosla
+91-9910083060
http://www.digimantra.com



2009/9/7 narendra sisodiya <narendra...@gmail.com>

Vivek Khurana

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Sep 7, 2009, 1:42:06 AM9/7/09
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On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 8:45 AM, Realin<rea...@gmail.com> wrote:
> @Narendra
>
> I did not read your complete email but since you wrote something against
> Adobe guys that interests me. See I am not here to offend them, but why do
> we need to use such harsh term for that. They were at the camp and had
> distributed what they had to, right ? And do you think adobe needs promotion
> ? Who does not know adobe first of all ?


If Adobe distributed non-FOSS software then it is not acceptable and
organizers are at fault in allowing this to happen.

>
> Before poking anyone like Romil Mittal, think he was a presenter who spare
> time for the community drove all the way from Noida to Dwarka, just cause we
> a bunch of organizers requested him to drop in.
>
> Xeba(i dun remember the exact name) had its logo on all the slides of Scala
> presentation, so do we poke them as well ? Dude I do not know what you think
> this camp to be, but what I believe is when you are talking in terms of
> building a community you should not be harsh and so very nazi.
>
> Regarding the slideshow in ppt format, what is the harm ? We cannot restrict
> people to use open source software for presenting at the camp ? Can we ? And
> if we are going to do that think we are spreading a wrong message in the
> community. We are a happy open source community who uses Open source

We can restrict people to use specific format and it will not be
harsh. If the presenters cant bother to install and use open source
software they have absolutely *no* right to speak at the camp.


> software, we are not rigid bunch of jerks who tend to destroy Microsoft &
> its alike.
>
> Just need you to be calm on your reactions, coz you were among the ones who
> were taking interest in driving the camp. So people will tend to follow you
> and I am sure no one wants to be extremist , does any one ?

It is not being exterimst but posing a restriction of no non-FOSS
software is fair enough. What exactly is your problem, just to get
audience you will let people do anything ? If people cant follow the
open source philosohpy they need not come here. This is not some
commercial venture. I will be happy not to see Adobe or any other big
names if the they are going to promote non-FOSS software. Narendra is
still forgiving for allowing presenters to run windows. I did not
appreciate this.
We are not here to baby feed anyone.. let the rules of the camp be
known to everyone.

BTW, pdf format should be acceptable because pdf as a format is not
controlled by Adobe and there are FOSS based pdf readers and writers.

regards
Vivek

--
The hidden harmony is better than the obvious!!

narendra sisodiya

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Sep 7, 2009, 1:51:47 AM9/7/09
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On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 8:45 AM, Realin <rea...@gmail.com> wrote:
@Narendra

I did not read your complete email
then first read and then reply !!

Abhishek Singh

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Sep 7, 2009, 2:20:10 AM9/7/09
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Guys,

This is really not a way to communicate in community. It looks like that some people feel that they own these camps while it's people CAMP. I request everyone please maintain dignity of this group and camp.
--
Abhishek Kumar Singh
ibibo web pvt. ltd.

www.ibibo.com

Mob: +91-9810848283

Vivek Khurana

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Sep 7, 2009, 2:35:36 AM9/7/09
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On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 11:50 AM, Abhishek Singh<abhish...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Guys,
>
> This is really not a way to communicate in community. It looks like that
> some people feel that they own these camps while it's people CAMP. I request
> everyone please maintain dignity of this group and camp.

Instead of maintaining a false dignity and letting non-FOSS software
permeate , it is better to debate out things. We do not impress on
anyone.. let the free speech flow.
We need to make this thing clear that if someone is not willing to
accept FOSS philosophy, they need not be part of the camp :)

Pankaj Jain

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Sep 7, 2009, 2:35:39 AM9/7/09
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Firstly, I apologize for not being able to make it this weekend. Other
comments are inline.


On Sep 7, 2009, at 11:12 AM, Vivek Khurana <hidden...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>
> On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 8:45 AM, Realin<rea...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> @Narendra
>>
>> I did not read your complete email but since you wrote something
>> against
>> Adobe guys that interests me. See I am not here to offend them, but
>> why do
>> we need to use such harsh term for that. They were at the camp and
>> had
>> distributed what they had to, right ? And do you think adobe needs
>> promotion
>> ? Who does not know adobe first of all ?
>
>
> If Adobe distributed non-FOSS software then it is not acceptable and
> organizers are at fault in allowing this to happen.

Agreed. Software being distributed should be OSS


>
>> Before poking anyone like Romil Mittal, think he was a presenter
>> who spare
>> time for the community drove all the way from Noida to Dwarka, just
>> cause we
>> a bunch of organizers requested him to drop in.
>>
>> Xeba(i dun remember the exact name) had its logo on all the slides
>> of Scala
>> presentation, so do we poke them as well ? Dude I do not know what
>> you think
>> this camp to be, but what I believe is when you are talking in
>> terms of
>> building a community you should not be harsh and so very nazi.
>>
>> Regarding the slideshow in ppt format, what is the harm ? We cannot
>> restrict
>> people to use open source software for presenting at the camp ? Can
>> we ? And
>> if we are going to do that think we are spreading a wrong message
>> in the
>> community. We are a happy open source community who uses Open source
>
> We can restrict people to use specific format and it will not be
> harsh. If the presenters cant bother to install and use open source
> software they have absolutely *no* right to speak at the camp.

Let's think this thru. Isn't the goal of osscamp to further the cause
of OSS by being inclusive? Rather than restrict people, we should
strongly suggest that presenters use OSS but not require it.

By this pattern of thinking anyone not running Linux should not be
allowed to present. OSes like Apple OS X might be based on FreeBSD but
make no mistake, it's not open. So why allow those of us using Macs to
present?

>> software, we are not rigid bunch of jerks who tend to destroy
>> Microsoft &
>> its alike.
>>
>> Just need you to be calm on your reactions, coz you were among the
>> ones who
>> were taking interest in driving the camp. So people will tend to
>> follow you
>> and I am sure no one wants to be extremist , does any one ?
>
> It is not being exterimst but posing a restriction of no non-FOSS
> software is fair enough. What exactly is your problem, just to get
> audience you will let people do anything ? If people cant follow the
> open source philosohpy they need not come here. This is not some
> commercial venture. I will be happy not to see Adobe or any other big
> names if the they are going to promote non-FOSS software. Narendra is
> still forgiving for allowing presenters to run windows. I did not
> appreciate this.
> We are not here to baby feed anyone.. let the rules of the camp be
> known to everyone.

It's not about "getting an audience". It is about propogating the OSS
philosophy to the unenlightened. Again, I have contributed code to the
Perl community but I did my development on a Mac as did a few other
regulars at OSScamp. Should they all be banned from sharing their
knowledge and experience? Make strong recommendations but do not
restrict and ban people.

>
> BTW, pdf format should be acceptable because pdf as a format is not
> controlled by Adobe and there are FOSS based pdf readers and writers.

Please check this. I believe the PDF format IS in fact controlled by
Adobe though they haven't been heavy handed in allowing people to
write writers and readers without getting a license from them. The PDF
standard is not open to the community for discussion from what I
remember.


> regards
> Vivek

My suggestion is keep it open an suggestive and not restrictive so as
many as possible can benefit from the OSS philosophy.

Just my $.02. Let the flame throwers rejoice :-)

Kinshuk Sunil

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Sep 7, 2009, 2:40:01 AM9/7/09
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@Abhishek
+10

@Vivek
I am sad that you are getting misleaded. I would have appreciated your feedback, if you were present at the camp and had witnessed what had happened. Please dont be misled by Narendra's reactions.

@Realin
I agree with your points but do not agree with your pro-Adobe tone :)
If Adobe did anything wrong they will have to brave it. Though, In my opinion and understanding they didnt do anything wrong.

@Narendra
Dude, i read your mail and am now replying to it :P

Honestly, I have been very disappointed by the reactions you have made here. Seriously, these are reactions - not constructive criticism. Reactions, out of which I cannot find anything useful to be implemented.

Let me share share some concerns with you point by point.

First of all we should understand what the OSScamp Community is. We are not Ram Sena for FOSS, we are a bunch of passionate people who come together to create a platform for promoting open source. Open Source is technology neutral and unbiased towards what technology/Platform/Company products you are using - that is a personal choice the individual will make. We will try to play a role in educating them so that they make an informed choice. And I trust, that you would agree that everyone present at the camp was aware of the benefits of open source softwares over Closed Source Softwares.

When you ban/dissuade people from doing a certain activity, you create a resistance. Personally, i dont want to do that. I dont want to walk up to people, looking like a wise guy, screaming aloud "You Fool! Use Free Software!" when they are aware of the benefits FOSS gives them over closed source. They have their reasons, excuses, whatever.

As far as using a Linux Laptop for running presentations is concerned, I totally agree with you. We should not be accidentally promoting things we do not believe in. I am glad that on Day 2 you managed to overcome this issue. I can only express my disappointment that you did not take the initiative of doing it on Day 1 as well. When I say you, I mean anyone in the community. If everyone expects me to run around and do everything, I think they need to check out what a community means (I wish i could point to a good link here).

Secondly, about the presentation copyrights. Even though people were not carrying any creative commons licenses on their presentations (which, was in many cases due to ignorance for CC) or in that case, any License what-so-ever, the speakers voluntarily agreed to sharing presentations on slideshare. I guess, the voluntary act to share is more important than tagging a license and forgetting everything about it.

What I can never apprehend is your reaction on the Adobe Session. Speaking personally here: Adobe made a good presentation and did a lot of contribution to the event with the two sessions. Romil did make the mistake of calling Freeware Free Software, but as far as I remember he corrected it as well. I cannot imagine how an introductory session on Flex would begin without some talk on Flash. Just to reaffirm you, I discussed the "Flash-discussion" issue with the Adobe guys and told them that this was not preferable at all. You should lodge your opinions and criticism in the correct fashion. At the opportune moment you let Adobe do what they wanted to do (which was wrong according to you) and now you write mails that make no sense, are misleading and will only ensue a flame war. In my opinion this behavior is incorrect, inappropriate and disrespectful to the community. What is the point of doing an unconference, if you cannot stand up and say "Hey Adobe Guys! Don't promote Flash. Its not open source!" What is the point in cribbing about it afterwords?

As far as the distribution of Flex Builder is concerned. I remember Romil saying it is not a trial, its a Student Edition. You need to be able to prove that you are a student to use the application without limitations. (Even Free Software can be sold, right?) If Adobe was really looking for promotion, they would have really wanted to do a distribution of stuff to developers, not students (this might be disputable). And if they promote an IDE to build promote Flex (an open source framework) I guesswe successfulyl promoted some parts of open source ??

Another suggestion, when you start taking names and pointing fingers, please be correct about what you say - dont bring the community bad name for your irresponsible statements.

Scheduling is something that was a bit too unstructured. Lets plan out how to fix this issue. I am thinking of introducing tracks and themes for sessions and do parrallel sessions deliberately. We had 4 unsued halls at our disposal for this camp.

Also, everyone - a request: refrain from flaming/inflammatory mails - lets only have constructive discussion, no pointing fingers and name callings, lets be responsible :)

I agree with the observations made by Pankaj.
--
regards
Kinshuk Sunil (+919910024895)
http://www.kinshuksunil.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/kinshuksunil
http://www.twitter.com/kinshuksunil
Sent from Noida, UP, India

Realin

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Sep 7, 2009, 1:59:26 AM9/7/09
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Alright,

Then why not draft rules for FOSS before you call for a camp, right ? And if you say organizers are at the fault, why not you be one ? Tell them what not to do before hand, instead of blaming them in the end.

And next time, please do not allow Windows OS or MAC inside the camp. Please do not be moderate at all, show them the real FOSS culture. I am sure that will bring lot more people to join camp :)

Cheers & best wishes
Sachin Khosla

2009/9/7 narendra sisodiya <narendra...@gmail.com>

narendra sisodiya

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Sep 7, 2009, 5:05:32 AM9/7/09
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In short - "Please do not allow non-foss component in any FOSS camps"

replied inline

On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 12:10 PM, Kinshuk Sunil <kinshu...@gmail.com> wrote:


@Abhishek
+10

@Vivek
I am sad that you are getting misleaded. I would have appreciated your feedback, if you were present at the camp and had witnessed what had happened. Please dont be misled by Narendra's reactions.

No I am not misleading anything.
@Realin
I agree with your points but do not agree with your pro-Adobe tone :)
If Adobe did anything wrong they will have to brave it. Though, In my opinion and understanding they didnt do anything wrong.

@Narendra
Dude, i read your mail and am now replying to it :P

Honestly, I have been very disappointed by the reactions you have made here. Seriously, these are reactions - not constructive criticism. Reactions, out of which I cannot find anything useful to be implemented.

Let me share share some concerns with you point by point.

First of all we should understand what the OSScamp Community is. We are not Ram Sena for FOSS, we are a bunch of passionate people who come together to create a platform for promoting open source. Open Source is technology neutral and unbiased towards what technology/Platform/Company products you are using - that is a personal choice the individual will make. We will try to play a role in educating them so that they make an informed choice. And I trust, that you would agree that everyone present at the camp was aware of the benefits of open source softwares over Closed Source Softwares.

I just said, Do not use non-foss tools in camps, what was wrong in that. There is no use to showing presentations on non-foss tools and close standard.
When you ban/dissuade people from doing a certain activity, you create a resistance.
Who said i wanted to ban any people, I wanted to ban non-foss activities in camp. I wanted to break CDs infront of them but the you will say that will be a act of violence so I thought it would be better to discuss on mailing list. I am not blaming the organiser or Kinshuk. I was directly targetting speaker in mail. Also when you say "India's Largerst Open Source Conference " and there I see such activty it hurt a lot. first i think it is better no to speak as many of you will consider that i am trying to create space but i was unable to sleep yesternight. On Bed I was thinking again and again why I have not broken those CD as the protest and then I restarted my PC in night arond 2.50 AM to mail my disappointment from speaker specially. I am also blaming myself too.
Personally, i dont want to do that. I dont want to walk up to people, looking like a wise guy, screaming aloud "You Fool! Use Free Software!" when they are aware of the benefits FOSS gives them over closed source. They have their reasons, excuses, whatever.

As far as using a Linux Laptop for running presentations is concerned, I totally agree with you. We should not be accidentally promoting things we do not believe in. I am glad that on Day 2 you managed to overcome this issue. I can only express my disappointment that you did not take the initiative of doing it on Day 1 as well.
On day#1 I was stopped to do so. It was discussed that we will do it after lunch.
 
When I say you, I mean anyone in the community. If everyone expects me to run around and do everything, I think they need to check out what a community means (I wish i could point to a good link here).

Dear Kinshuk , I am not blaming you for "run time error"  , I was just listing them out. I was away from Delhi from last 1 year so I was unable to attend last 2-3 camps and out of touch with many member. Due to workpressure in company i can not mail you or come to IRC even. So I decided to put my best in 2 days and I was trying to say do it and don't this but that too some limit. If I cross the limit many of you will think as "camp highjaking" Or "ye koun hai jo last din tapka?" because of this reason I was unable to stand and speak like "Hey do not distribute this freeware " and then break some CDs.
Secondly, about the presentation copyrights. Even though people were not carrying any creative commons licenses on their presentations (which, was in many cases due to ignorance for CC) or in that case, any License what-so-ever, the speakers voluntarily agreed to sharing presentations on slideshare. I guess, the voluntary act to share is more important than tagging a license and forgetting everything about it.

upload of slides will be good. But I was saying to upload of slides with CC license which give a legal method to modify and redistribute. Also you can choose license while upload also. I made this point becuase I feel next time speaker will do this.
Also If somebody want to put a logo of his/her organisation where he/she belongs too is not a issue.
What I can never apprehend is your reaction on the Adobe Session. Speaking personally here: Adobe made a good presentation and did a lot of contribution to the event with the two sessions. Romil did make the mistake of calling Freeware Free Software, but as far as I remember he corrected it as well. I cannot imagine how an introductory session on Flex would begin without some talk on Flash. Just to reaffirm you, I discussed the "Flash-discussion" issue with the Adobe guys and told them that this was not preferable at all. You should lodge your opinions and criticism in the correct fashion. At the opportune moment you let Adobe do what they wanted to do (which was wrong according to you) and now you write mails that make no sense, are misleading and will only ensue a flame war. In my opinion this behavior is incorrect, inappropriate and disrespectful to the community. What is the point of doing an unconference, if you cannot stand up and say "Hey Adobe Guys! Don't promote Flash. Its not open source!" What is the point in cribbing about it afterwords?

I have explained above why I was resited my myself. 
As far as the distribution of Flex Builder is concerned. I remember Romil saying it is not a trial, its a Student Edition.
If you remeber I asked him about the time period, he said after their student ship it is not valid to use it. Basically It is a "type of Freeware" or totally non-foss. Distribution if such software is my main concern.
 
You need to be able to prove that you are a student to use the application without limitations. (Even Free Software can be sold, right?) If Adobe was really looking for promotion, they would have really wanted to do a distribution of stuff to developers, not students (this might be disputable). And if they promote an IDE to build promote Flex (an open source framework)
Buddy , I am talking about IDE which they distributed. That is a non-foss component.
I guesswe successfulyl promoted some parts of open source ??

Another suggestion, when you start taking names and pointing fingers, please be correct about what you say - dont bring the community bad name for your irresponsible statements.

I am just putting "space of improvement"
Scheduling is something that was a bit too unstructured. Lets plan out how to fix this issue. I am thinking of introducing tracks and themes for sessions and do parrallel sessions deliberately. We had 4 unsued halls at our disposal for this camp.

Also, everyone - a request: refrain from flaming/inflammatory mails - lets only have constructive discussion, no pointing fingers and name callings, lets be responsible :)

I agree with the observations made by Pankaj.

narendra sisodiya

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Sep 7, 2009, 5:08:26 AM9/7/09
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On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 11:29 AM, Realin <rea...@gmail.com> wrote:
Alright,

Then why not draft rules for FOSS before you call for a camp, right ? And if you say organizers are at the fault, 
Organiser , (including me) did their best but i was listing out mistakes and i do not feel wrong,
why not you be one ? Tell them what not to do before hand, instead of blaming them in the end.

And next time, please do not allow Windows OS or MAC inside the camp. Please do not be moderate at all, show them the real FOSS culture. I am sure that will bring lot more people to join camp :)
Yes, Next Camp we will be having strict guidelines to avoid "run time errors"
Hope i will be able to make better contribution next time.

Ankur Banerjee

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Sep 7, 2009, 5:06:57 AM9/7/09
to OSScamp Delhi
* Whether you like it or not, PDF and PPTX are both ISO standards.
(Most of the presentations which weren't in ODP were in these two
formats.) It's up to the authors what they want to use.

* Using Windows (or a Mac for that matter) could have been necessary
in some cases. Some data cards work only in Windows. BTW, Narendra,
didn't you borrow any Adobe guy's laptop so that you could use his
data card to give a demo of the project? I think you should remember
that. About using those Windows for presentations, you shouldn't judge
people people without first getting in touch with them why they
weren't using it. My laptop for instance has an ATI graphics card for
which the open source drivers don't work (it defaults to VESA);
proprietary fglrx works fine for desktop usage but things get screwed
when trying to connect to an external display. Delegating one laptop
for all presentations is a good idea, but presenters often have
software demos installed on their own laptops - by far almost all of
these were running a Linux distro. Those who did use Windows might
have been necessitated to use that by circumstances.

* Using a Creative Commons license is up to an author and you can't
force anyone to do it. Anyway, CC is just *one* way of going about
doing it. An author may as well license it under his own terms which
are permissive enough. As Kinshuk said, the act of giving it
voluntarily is what matters here, not which of the dozens of licenses
available was used.

* Use of terminology - 'freeware' and 'free software' is often what
people use interchangeably. FOSS community does not own the English
language, so other people are free (as in speech, not beer) to attach
whatever interpretations they want. I really do think it was a slip-of-
tongue, since Romil apologized and corrected himself. What more do you
want?

* BlazeDS is licensed under LGPL, Flex is licensed under MPL. So on
what grounds should Adobe presentations _not_ have been allowed?


Free / open source software ideology at its core is about intellectual
property rights. Making ad-hominem attacks on someone or something
purely because they have a different viewpoint is not the right thing
to do. When it comes to free / open source vs closed source, most FOSS
people leave it at "I am right and you are wrong" without going into
'Why' a software should be free / open source. That attitude doesn't
help.

- Ankur Banerjee
http://www.ankurb.info
http://twitter.com/ankurb

On Sep 7, 2:22 am, narendra sisodiya <narendra.sisod...@gmail.com>
wrote:
>        First of all, I would like to thanks the whole community for a
> successful osscamp. I specially want to thanks volunteers, presenter,
> organiser and sponsors to making a osscamp a great success. first time in
> osscamp I saw a video recording and this will help a lot because video will
> be available online very soon. I suggest to convert those videos in .ogg
> format and upload tohttp://www.open-video.org/orhttp://openvideo.dailymotion.com/in.
>        Basically there was a good community effort and we did at our best. I
> enjoyed many thing and many talks. Soon we will get many blogs with good
> points of osscamp and even I can also write 3 page on good points of osscamp
> but lets discuss what went wrong (basically the runtime errors) and how we
> can correct in next camps. ( Please take these suggestion in constructive
> and positive manner)
>
> *1. Presentation Formats :* I saw many speaker (mainly #1day) were using
> presentation in ppt/pdf format. Speaker please take water and put in your
> eyes and first realise what exaclty you doing. Free and Open Source
> Community is based on certain principles and there is no use to say anything
> on FOSS without knowing the principle. ODP is proper standard for making
> presentation Or you can export to pdf file. In First day I saw speaker were
> using Windows OS with powerpoint for presentations. Many guys were laughing
> at this activity. Now Indian Govt is working on Open Standard Policy and It
> clearly speak on Open Standard and their need. you can check the work on
> Open Standard Policyhttp://fosscomm.in/OpenStandards, We must
> collect/create the presentation in odp format and put one laptop which has
> GNU/Linux Distro for presentations. We may allow to use Windows OS is camp
> in the worst case where some speaker has a specific demo which can run on
> Windows only. I would like pass this link to those speaker (http://tinyurl.com/l9ldhm)
>
> *2. Presentation Copyrights :* Almost all presentations in camp were not
> having any CC-BY-SA or similar license on slides. Guys we were there to
> share. Next time please make your presentation in one of the CC license.
>
> *3. Freeware :* This was the most shameless activity done by abode persons
> in the camp. Their talk were mostly concentrated on the *promotion of Adobe
> product* , The person (I think Romil Mittal) came from adobe system for
> introducing Flex was trying to misguide the public. He has
> *DISTRIBUTED*some Abode product to student which is a "Frerware" --
> student licence for
> using limited time period. He was telling that this is a "Free Software". A
> person working on Open Source in Abode do not know the difference between
> Free Software and Freeware. Somebody please send this link to that
> presenter. (http://tinyurl.com/lfyevl) Also I request all the student that
> If you have any self-respect or respect for FOSS community then please break
> that "Freeware" CD and put in the dustbin.
> **
> *4. Schedule of presentations* : We can use a whiteboard or paper kind of
> thing on which we put the time slots of 20 minutes. So for 8 hour , we have
> 24 slots and anyone can put this talk in the available slots. So we have
> have a schedule during the 1st workshop and we can announce the schedule or
> may be put on display. This will help audience to choose their desired talk
> and they and moveout from the room without having tension for missing their
> desired presentations.
>
> **Do we some more points. I request audience to make their honest feedback.

Vivek Khurana

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Sep 7, 2009, 5:35:05 AM9/7/09
to osscam...@googlegroups.com
On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 11:29 AM, Realin<rea...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Alright,
>
> Then why not draft rules for FOSS before you call for a camp, right ? And if
> you say organizers are at the fault, why not you be one ? Tell them what not
> to do before hand, instead of blaming them in the end.

Rules of FOSS ? Isn't the FOSS ideology available openly since
1980's. No organizers cant be placed at fault, it is the carelessness
fo the campers. Had these things happend in any other FOSS event, the
speaker would have been shown the door. I appreciate teh tolerance of
organizrs in handling careless campers.

Vivek Khurana

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Sep 7, 2009, 5:43:07 AM9/7/09
to osscam...@googlegroups.com
On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 2:36 PM, Ankur Banerjee<greatq...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> * Whether you like it or not, PDF and PPTX are both ISO standards.
> (Most of the presentations which weren't in ODP were in these two
> formats.) It's up to the authors what they want to use.
>
> * Using Windows (or a Mac for that matter) could have been necessary
> in some cases. Some data cards work only in Windows. BTW, Narendra,
> didn't you borrow any Adobe guy's laptop so that you could use his
> data card to give a demo of the project? I think you should remember
> that. About using those Windows for presentations, you shouldn't judge
> people people without first getting in touch with them why they
> weren't using it. My laptop for instance has an ATI graphics card for
> which the open source drivers don't work (it defaults to VESA);
> proprietary fglrx works fine for desktop usage but things get screwed
> when trying to connect to an external display. Delegating one laptop
> for all presentations is a good idea, but presenters often have
> software demos installed on their own laptops - by far almost all of
> these were running a Linux distro. Those who did use Windows might
> have been necessitated to use that by circumstances.

As of now, only outdated Tata indicom cards dont work and the data
cards from Reliance (which have never worked). Rest everything works.
As for your laptop, you could have asked for help and we would have
been happy to get it work on linux. I have ATI and Nvida cords working
under linux.


>
> * Using a Creative Commons license is up to an author and you can't
> force anyone to do it. Anyway, CC is just *one* way of going about
> doing it. An author may as well license it under his own terms which
> are permissive enough. As Kinshuk said, the act of giving it
> voluntarily is what matters here, not which of the dozens of licenses
> available was used.
>
> * Use of terminology - 'freeware' and 'free software' is often what
> people use interchangeably. FOSS community does not own the English
> language, so other people are free (as in speech, not beer) to attach
> whatever interpretations they want. I really do think it was a slip-of-
> tongue, since Romil apologized and corrected himself. What more do you
> want?

The question is not about English language here. The question is about
making people aware of the difference between Freeware and Free
software. If you let people accept freeware int eh name of Free
software then the whole purpose of Free software is defeated.Freedom
of speech doesnt mean you are free to make factual errors. You cant
use east and West interchangably, you will end up in the wrong
direction.


>
>
> Free / open source software ideology at its core is about intellectual
> property rights. Making ad-hominem attacks on someone or something
> purely because they have a different viewpoint is not the right thing
> to do. When it comes to free / open source vs closed source, most FOSS
> people leave it at "I am right and you are wrong" without going into
> 'Why' a software should be free / open source. That attitude doesn't
> help.

Those who ride on several boats do not end up anywhere. So it is
better to choose one side. As for why software should be open source,
there are so many rticles, debates, speeches on this on the internet.
Who says free software guys do not make it clear why software should
be Free. If you close your eyes and say its dark, that does not mean
its night.

narendra sisodiya

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Sep 7, 2009, 5:46:47 AM9/7/09
to osscam...@googlegroups.com
On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 2:36 PM, Ankur Banerjee <greatq...@yahoo.com> wrote:

* Whether you like it or not, PDF and PPTX are both ISO standards.
(Most of the presentations which weren't in ODP were in these two
formats.) It's up to the authors what they want to use.

Please read my mail again, I was opposing non-foss tool and unopen adn non-standard formats.  Even if you make presentation in pptx or pdf but please run in on FOSS based openrating system. Am I clear now ?? Many presentations were in ppt format in camp. (adn not pptx)
 
* Using Windows (or a Mac for that matter) could have been necessary
in some cases. Some data cards work only in Windows. BTW, Narendra,
didn't you borrow any Adobe guy's laptop so that you could use his
data card to give a demo of the project?
No , I have not used any such laptop. I use centos with Opera from Piyush.
 
I think you should remember
that. About using those Windows for presentations, you shouldn't judge
people people without first getting in touch with them why they
weren't using it. My laptop for instance has an ATI graphics card for
which the open source drivers don't work (it defaults to VESA);
proprietary fglrx works fine for desktop usage but things get screwed
when trying to connect to an external display. Delegating one laptop
for all presentations is a good idea, but presenters often have
software demos installed on their own laptops - by far almost all of
these were running a Linux distro. Those who did use Windows might
have been necessitated to use that by circumstances.

next time we will give guideline to submit presentations on Open format which has cross platform foss-tools. We will discuss in details in later thread when we will organise next camp.
* Using a Creative Commons license is up to an author and you can't
force anyone to do it. Anyway, CC is just *one* way of going about
doing it. An author may as well license it under his own terms which
are permissive enough. As Kinshuk said, the act of giving it
voluntarily is what matters here, not which of the dozens of licenses
available was used.

One must use a suitable licence for presentation before hand. Organise should not upload and decide the license of talk while uploading it.
* Use of terminology - 'freeware' and 'free software' is often what
people use interchangeably. FOSS community does not own the English
language, so other people are free (as in speech, not beer) to attach
whatever interpretations they want. I really do think it was a slip-of-
tongue, since Romil apologized and corrected himself. What more do you
want?

Yaar who the hell is concentrating on "slip of tounge", I am concentrating of distribution on non-foss tools in camp.
* BlazeDS is licensed under LGPL, Flex is licensed under MPL. So on
what grounds should Adobe presentations _not_ have been allowed?

Do you start writing mail before reading the full mail and not even understanding what somebody is saying . Tell me When did i said "We should not allow adobe presentations"


Free / open source software ideology at its core is about intellectual
property rights. Making ad-hominem attacks on someone or something
purely because they have a different viewpoint is not the right thing
to do. When it comes to free / open source vs closed source, most FOSS
people leave it at "I am right and you are wrong" without going into
'Why' a software should be free / open source. That attitude doesn't
help.

When I am trying to guide the camp by my experince It seems you are taking my input in totally wrong way.

graphicmist

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Sep 7, 2009, 5:48:45 AM9/7/09
to OSScamp Delhi
hi guys,
though i was not in the camp, i totally agree with kinshuk. we can't
force anyone in the community to go by our rules. instead we should
show them the options available and make them feel why opensource is
better way. you cant pull our anyone from their comfort zone so
easily. neither we are the group of anti-microsoft people who just
hate windows and all its stuff. Just show the people in communtiy the
reasons to love OSS.

On Sep 7, 2:35 pm, Vivek Khurana <hiddenharm...@gmail.com> wrote:

Piyush

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Sep 7, 2009, 5:58:31 AM9/7/09
to OSScamp Delhi
GUYIAS !!

_HOLA_

plzzz dont' try to become BHAI types here ... :P ... maroo magar pyaar
se.. :)

@narendra - I respect ur ~ RMS like views :) - nD will try to improve
FOSS culture in next osscamps !

@Kinshuk - WAHOO! - huge reply man !! :) +1

_fact_:
as known by Narendra too - I gave my laptop for the demonstration of
Eduvid (and some talks on day one)- running CentOS on VMware over
Windows box - the reason is he needs Internet connection - which I
have on my OFFICE laptop (my bad)- (P.S. not ma personal LPT) -
because the ma data card of TATA-Indicom runs with windows
dialup :P... agali bar nahin dunga .. Maa Kasssaaam ! _seriously_


muaah :) !! L.O.V.E u all - for showing up on camp :)

Shanti! Shanti ! Shanti!

-Piyush
http://piyush.me

narendra sisodiya

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Sep 7, 2009, 5:59:11 AM9/7/09
to osscam...@googlegroups.com
On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 3:18 PM, graphicmist <mani...@gmail.com> wrote:

hi guys,
though i was not in the camp, i totally agree with kinshuk. we can't
force anyone in the community to go by our rules.
Our Rules???
No dude,, Community makes rules for Community. We are dicussing here that we must not spoil the the word "Free and Open Source Community", If you want to call this community as open source community then we have to stick with pre-defined ideology and rules of openness. We cannot compromize just because one speaker is fully into OpenSource !!

in Nutshell :: If you are not fully into opensource world and do not want to follow open source world's guidelines, then please come and take seat as audience and learn it first. Do not come at speaker's level to misguide. I know my words are always harse because "good pills taste bad" also We must not concentrating on Just Running, we must see in what Direction we are running. I am just putting tarch light to after some time we should end up with wrong location.
 
instead we should show them the options available and make them feel why opensource is
better way. you cant pull our anyone from their comfort zone so
easily. neither we are the group of anti-microsoft people who just
hate windows and all its stuff. Just show the people in communtiy the
reasons to love OSS.

On Sep 7, 2:35 pm, Vivek Khurana <hiddenharm...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 11:29 AM, Realin<real...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Alright,
>
> > Then why not draft rules for FOSS before you call for a camp, right ? And if
> > you say organizers are at the fault, why not you be one ? Tell them what not
> > to do before hand, instead of blaming them in the end.
>
>  Rules of FOSS ? Isn't the FOSS ideology available openly since
> 1980's. No organizers cant be placed at fault, it is the carelessness
> fo the campers. Had these things happend in any other FOSS event, the
> speaker would have been shown the door. I appreciate teh tolerance of
> organizrs in handling careless campers.
>
> regards
> Vivek
>
> --
> The hidden harmony is better than the obvious!!

Vivek Khurana

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Sep 7, 2009, 6:01:31 AM9/7/09
to osscam...@googlegroups.com
On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 3:18 PM, graphicmist<mani...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> hi guys,
> though i was not in the camp, i totally agree with kinshuk. we can't
> force anyone in the community to go by our rules. instead we should
> show them the options available and make them feel why opensource is
> better way. you cant pull our anyone from their comfort zone so
> easily. neither we are the group of anti-microsoft people who just
> hate windows and all its stuff. Just show the people in communtiy the
> reasons to love OSS.
>

If we allow people to use non-FOSS tools then we are sending a
message that there is no difference in FOSs and non-FOSS tools. This
defeats the whole purpose of an osscamp. If we are going to allow
users to come and speak on anything and use anything, then let it be a
barcamp and lets not drag open source into this. Open source is a
different way of doing things and we ensure that non-FOSS tools are
kept outside the osscamp.
If we cant ensure this much, we should stop conducting OSSCAMP or may
be I should expect talks on windows7 and .NET in the next camp :)

narendra sisodiya

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Sep 7, 2009, 6:06:47 AM9/7/09
to osscam...@googlegroups.com
On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 3:28 PM, Piyush <piyk...@gmail.com> wrote:

_fact_:
as known by Narendra too - I gave my laptop for the demonstration of
Eduvid (and some talks on day one)- running CentOS on VMware over
Windows box - the reason is he needs Internet connection - which I
have on my OFFICE laptop (my bad)- (P.S. not ma personal LPT) -
because the ma data card of TATA-Indicom runs with windows
dialup :P...  agali bar nahin dunga .. Maa Kasssaaam !  _seriously_
I am aware of the fact, But I was using an FOSS Distro over layer of abstration (VMware). I was relying on WIFI connectivity on camp. I tool your laptop in the wrost case when nothing was working and showing the demo was a urgenct needed. Unfortunatly my laptop was stolen otherwise I would have use mine.

narendra sisodiya

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Sep 7, 2009, 6:08:30 AM9/7/09
to osscam...@googlegroups.com
Exaclty same point I am putting up. We will strict by next camp.

Vivek Khurana

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Sep 7, 2009, 6:10:08 AM9/7/09
to osscam...@googlegroups.com
On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 3:28 PM, Piyush<piyk...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> GUYIAS !!
>
> _HOLA_
>
> plzzz dont' try to become BHAI types here ... :P ... maroo magar pyaar
> se.. :)

I cant understand why we want to be *goog boys* ? What is wrong in
saying things as is ? Nothing is wrong in using harsh words, atleast
they convey things properly. On a mailing list there is no way for the
other to understand your emotions, so using "pyar bhara words" will
only derail things.

>
> @narendra - I respect  ur ~ RMS like views :) - nD will try to improve
> FOSS culture in next osscamps !
>
> @Kinshuk - WAHOO! - huge reply man !! :) +1
>
> _fact_:
> as known by Narendra too - I gave my laptop for the demonstration of
> Eduvid (and some talks on day one)- running CentOS on VMware over
> Windows box - the reason is he needs Internet connection - which I
> have on my OFFICE laptop (my bad)- (P.S. not ma personal LPT) -
> because the ma data card of TATA-Indicom runs with windows
> dialup :P...  agali bar nahin dunga .. Maa Kasssaaam !  _seriously_
>

Which model of Tata indicom modem you have ? Most of them work on Linux.

Manish Kutaula

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Sep 7, 2009, 6:10:32 AM9/7/09
to osscam...@googlegroups.com
@vivek you are taking me wrong. very wrong.... i didnt say that we should allow people to use non-FOSS tools and talks and make it a barcamp. DID I?
So what u want to do make a scene at osscamp. kick out anyone who comes with windows and using fuc** IE for accessing internet.

@narendra and what do u think?  our community is so passionate about FOSS (atleast you are ..ur posts shows it all) ..how anyone can spoil the FOSS community...?

On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 3:31 PM, Vivek Khurana <hidden...@gmail.com> wrote:



--
Open source enthusiast, Ruby lover & Drupal Fan
Twitter ID: http://twitter.com/graphicmist
Linkedin : http://www.linkedin.com/in/kutaula
Facebook:http://www.facebook.com/graphicmist

Piyush

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Sep 7, 2009, 6:14:08 AM9/7/09
to OSScamp Delhi
@narendra - yes thats' the point -
> I tool your
> laptop in the wrost case when nothing was working and showing the demo was a
> urgenct needed. Unfortunatly my laptop was stolen otherwise I would have use
> mine.

we used windows box - just because - people carried there ppts on usb
- and just we didnt' had any option - used windows box !! thats' it ..
on 2nd day we had most of presentaion on Linux boxes only !!

ku .. guisaa ho rahe ho :)

take a chill pill - we 'll correct this in next camp for sure :)

-Piyush

On Sep 7, 3:06 pm, narendra sisodiya <narendra.sisod...@gmail.com>
wrote:

narendra sisodiya

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Sep 7, 2009, 6:28:26 AM9/7/09
to osscam...@googlegroups.com
On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 3:40 PM, Manish Kutaula <mani...@gmail.com> wrote:
@vivek you are taking me wrong. very wrong.... i didnt say that we should allow people to use non-FOSS tools and talks and make it a barcamp. DID I?
So what u want to do make a scene at osscamp. kick out anyone who comes with windows and using fuc** IE for accessing internet.

No ...
All are welcome to with non-foss tool (windows IE etc) and sit in the camp and ask questions. We will clear each and every problem and doubt. But we must stop such guys to become presenter and speakers or organiser. Speaker is the face and voice of community and if they try to show wrong thing in camp it spoil the meaning of FOSS communities.
I am NOT forcing audience to use FOSS tool from the day first.

@narendra and what do u think?  our community is so passionate about FOSS (atleast you are ..ur posts shows it all) ..how anyone can spoil the FOSS community...?


One can spoil it by showing "non-foss" activity (as a speaker or camper or organiser) or giving wrong interpretation of FOSS.

Manish Kutaula

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Sep 7, 2009, 6:33:18 AM9/7/09
to osscam...@googlegroups.com
Dude i love it 
Now u come to the point  .. u can say that is simple words .. why were u writing such long essays...

narendra sisodiya

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Sep 7, 2009, 6:38:43 AM9/7/09
to osscam...@googlegroups.com


On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 4:03 PM, Manish Kutaula <mani...@gmail.com> wrote:
Dude i love it 
Now u come to the point  .. u can say that is simple words .. why were u writing such long essays...

Thanks finally you got my point. I am good at thought process but weak at expression. ( -v agrument is not fully supproted)

Piyush

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Sep 7, 2009, 6:58:22 AM9/7/09
to OSScamp Delhi
OBHAISHAAB !!

>What is wrong in
> saying things as is ? Nothing is wrong in using harsh words, atleast
> they convey things properly. On a mailing list there is no way for the
> other to understand your emotions, so using "pyar bhara words" will
> only derail things.

okies .. okies !! ... so my _as_is_ harsh words are for U in frnt of
community :)
---------
vivek-- :P
---------
reason - tuned on day 2 with his dashing cam - just 2 meet IITK guys -
NOT FOR any OSS support or for OSSCAMP !!
and making LONG LONG comments ....saying _as_is_ words

@narendra
----------
narendra--
----------
reason - bhai agar itna hi foss idealism hai to u should not have used
the underlying layer - VMware(not XEN) - not a FOSS tool running over
Windows box!.. just because its your talk .. and u hv to promote
Eduvid ! .. why otherwise..??

saachayiii... kadvii hoti hai .. so my harsh words as is for you both
idiots ... jinkoo bar bar samjha rahe hai ki ...bhai situation ko
samjhoo.... just because we didnt' carried Linux boxes .. we should
have left the camp ... should not present ... doent' make sense!!

SEE the no. of guys - who are even not present at the camp - are
supporting and all talks are GOOD -- too GOOD !!

people loved that .. enjoyed the GYAN from the talks ... and if
running the ppts over windows ... too.. we PROMOTED OSS talks ..

Adobe Flex is open source too !


On Sep 7, 3:10 pm, Vivek Khurana <hiddenharm...@gmail.com> wrote:

narendra sisodiya

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Sep 7, 2009, 7:28:18 AM9/7/09
to osscam...@googlegroups.com
On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 4:28 PM, Piyush <piyk...@gmail.com> wrote:

OBHAISHAAB !!

>What is wrong in
> saying things as is ? Nothing is wrong in using harsh words, atleast
> they convey things properly. On a mailing list there is no way for the
> other to understand your emotions, so using "pyar bhara words" will
> only derail things.

okies .. okies !! ... so my _as_is_ harsh words are for U in frnt of
community :)
---------
vivek-- :P
---------
reason - tuned on day 2 with his dashing cam - just 2 meet IITK guys -
NOT FOR any OSS support or for OSSCAMP !!
and making LONG LONG comments ....saying _as_is_ words

So you want to say one has to attend the full workshop to make any comment ?
The long long comment are being made for improving the camp. Even I had a contribution on some camps where i was sitting miles aways. One need not to attend the full workshop to attend and comment it.
@narendra
----------
narendra--
----------
reason - bhai agar itna hi foss idealism hai to u should not have used
the underlying layer - VMware(not XEN) - not a FOSS tool running over
Windows box!.. just because its your talk .. and u hv to promote
Eduvid ! .. why otherwise..??

saachayiii...  kadvii hoti hai .. so my harsh words as is for you both
idiots ... jinkoo bar bar samjha rahe hai ki ...bhai situation ko
samjhoo.... just because we didnt' carried Linux boxes .. we should
have left the camp ... should not present ... doent' make sense!!

I am aware of this situation and we will not let it happened again. have i done something wrong by listing it.

Even I suggest to cut "time and cost" on posters,banner, blogging , Tshirt. We will use this time in configuring Wifi and availability of Linux Boxes in the camps first.
We should take (availability of Wifi and Linux boxes ) as first priority and other thing (Banner. Blogging, Poster, Tshirt, Photos) in second priority. 
[Again this a suggestion for next camp , I am not asking any of the organiser(including me) why Linux box was not there and why Wifi was not there]
Should i repeat it. OK
Please read carefully now. I am saying that we will take "wifi and availability of Linux Boxs at first priority other things as second and I am not asking why this was not there  in last camp"

SEE the no. of guys - who are even not present at the camp - are
supporting and all talks are GOOD -- too GOOD !!

Why you feel targetted ? I am targetting the mistakes. I have written the purpose of mail in the very first mail. Just want to list out what went wrong and we will take care next time. Please assume that from the first mail we are discussing what we should do and shouldn't.

 
people loved that .. enjoyed the GYAN from the talks ... and if
running the ppts over windows ... too.. we PROMOTED OSS talks ..

Adobe Flex is open source too !

I never said it is not. flex is open source. (idk the exact license)


Guys,, I am not saying that you have done something wrong intentionally. I am just listing out the mistakes and run time errors so that we can correct them. (I think I am writing this line 10th time).

Who team has done a excellent work and nobody is denying that.


PS: I feel very suffocated now !!

narendra sisodiya

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Sep 7, 2009, 7:31:52 AM9/7/09
to osscam...@googlegroups.com
Who team has done a excellent work and nobody is denying that.

Whole team

PS: I feel very suffocated now !!

Abhishek Singh

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Sep 7, 2009, 7:40:36 AM9/7/09
to osscam...@googlegroups.com
Narendra,


I think now we should stop this thread here only. This talk is not going in right direction , everyone is feeling that they are suggesting right thing. There is nothing right and wrong. I support your suggestion that if anyone is carrying non-OSS tools and Windows or anyother non-OS operating system give your Linux based + all OSS tools loaded laptop  and ask him to present now by this way you can let people feel that they were doing wrong. We should discuss solutions not issues that is already happened. We should not play blame game in Community.
--
Abhishek Kumar Singh
ibibo web pvt. ltd.

www.ibibo.com

Mob: +91-9810848283

Realin

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Sep 7, 2009, 5:11:36 AM9/7/09
to osscam...@googlegroups.com
One thing to add in the rules.

Please do not carry mobiles or any gadgets which have non-  FOSS operating systems. That includes my Nokia #E71 and even everyone else's Nokia mobiles.
Try buying a new phone, think Motorolla has got open source OS.

Good luck, will be looking for the rule list. Thanks to Narendra for giving the insight about the FOSS community. I am sorry for behaving noob, i really did not know about these FOSS rules :)

Cheers!!
Sachin Khosla


2009/9/7 narendra sisodiya <narendra...@gmail.com>
On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 11:29 AM, Realin <rea...@gmail.com> wrote:

Tanay

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Sep 7, 2009, 8:19:16 AM9/7/09
to OSScamp Delhi
I totally agree with the viewpoint that we can not force anyone to use
FOSS but I am of the opinion that a speaker should not be allowed to
deliver his talk on non-FOSS applications, especially on laptops
running Windows or Mac! If a person wants to be in his/her comfort
zone using MS Office and/or Windows, s/he is free to do so and should
definitely not be debarred from attending any camp but presenting on
the Windows/Mac machines sends a clear wrong signal to the newbies of
the community. This needs to be taken care of. The sole purpose of
these camps is to promote open source, and if the speaker himself/
herself is not serious about the feeling of being a part of the open
source family (presenting on Windows/non-FOSS applications is non-
seriousness; seriously!), then this very purpose is destroyed. The
best way to lead is to lead by example.

As far as the matter of some hardware driver support issues (graphics
cards or USB Modems) are concerned, then it is a system specific
matter and the person concerned should ensure that such issues are
fixed before projecting his/her laptop screen in front of the
community. All such issues are curable if they are looked into with
some serious geeky concern. After all, this is what preparing oneself
for an OSScamp means!

About the distribution of non-FOSS tools in the camp. It surely is
unacceptable but breaking the CDs (or even talking about it!) and thus
insulting someone is not what the Open Source philosophy tells us.
Extremism is acceptable, but surely not terrorism (read vandalism)!
All guidelines regarding such issues should be clearly stated to all
the campers before the camp and then any self-respecting camper
(whether from any XYZ organisation) won't try to hamper the open
source environment.

One final suggestion, discussions in such mailing lists should be
dignified and there should not be any finger pointing towards anyone.
We all are a part of this community to promote open source, not fight
over its nitty gritties! Isn't it!

Happy Camping!

--
Tanay Mathpal
Final Yr, Computer Engineering
College of Technology
Pantnagar
tanaym...@gbpuat-tech.ac.in
tana...@gmail.com
http://tanamania.wordpress.com/
http://twitter.com/tanamania/

Realin

unread,
Sep 7, 2009, 8:08:33 AM9/7/09
to osscam...@googlegroups.com
Exactly what I meant, now looking for Kinshuk to lock the thread here itself.

@Piyush, if you can do so, it will be great.

Let's plan for the next camp wisely and in the FOSS way is what Narendra meant. The only thing which I would like Narendra to accept is that he pin-pointed someone's name and gives wrong name to the community.

We should never forget that these threads are all public and is also tweeted by Narendra on twitter. So its public that the OSSCamp community invited someone to present and then awarded him a title "Shameless". Many are already offended, its another thing they did not mention it in here.

As kinshuk said not to pin point someone and as Abhishek, the wise man, said Stop the blame game. We are all small small happy happy tuxs :P

Cheers to Narendra & Vivek for being emotional about FOSS. Cheers to rest of us (including me) for debating :P

So lets chill guys , Captain Obvious says so :P
Cheers!!
Sachin Khosla

2009/9/7 Abhishek Singh <abhish...@gmail.com>

Ankur Banerjee

unread,
Sep 7, 2009, 7:12:05 AM9/7/09
to OSScamp Delhi
>  As of now, only outdated Tata indicom cards dont work and the data
> cards from Reliance (which have never worked). Rest everything works.
> As for your laptop, you could have asked for help and we would have
> been happy to get it work on linux. I have ATI and Nvida cords working
> under linux.

Just because one particular graphics card from a company works on one
distro doesn't mean that any other graphics card from the same company
will work properly. I'm sure you would be aware of this fact. I'm not
a newbie, neither I expect are you. Suffice to say that I've tried to
get it working with multiple distros and as of now it doesn't work.

> The question is not about English language here. The question is about
> making people aware of the difference between Freeware and Free
> software. If you let people accept freeware int eh name of Free
> software then the whole purpose of Free software is defeated.Freedom
> of speech doesnt mean you are free to make factual errors. You cant
> use east and West interchangably, you will end up in the wrong
> direction.

And my point is that it was an honest mistake, admitted and apologized
for immediately. So FUD tactics in the first post on this thread
saying 'they were distributing freeware by saying it's free software'
is uncalled for.


> Those who ride on several boats do not end up anywhere. So it is
> better to choose one side. As for why software should be open source,
> there are so many rticles, debates, speeches on this on the internet.
> Who says free software guys do not make it clear why software should
> be Free. If you close your eyes and say its dark, that does not mean
> its night.

I perfectly know which boat I am on, but I also think it's okay to
have intelligent discussions about the merit/demerits of any ideology
without getting worked up about it.

- Ankur Banerjee

Tanay

unread,
Sep 7, 2009, 8:04:46 AM9/7/09
to OSScamp Delhi

Ankur Banerjee

unread,
Sep 7, 2009, 7:37:36 AM9/7/09
to OSScamp Delhi
> Please read my mail again, I was opposing non-foss tool and unopen adn
> non-standard formats.  Even if you make presentation in pptx or pdf but
> please run in on FOSS based openrating system. Am I clear now ?? Many
> presentations were in ppt format in camp. (adn not pptx)

Please read *my* mail again. I never opposed using open source
software. All I pointed out was that PDF (and PPTX) are ISO standards.
Yes, some might have been there who used PPT - but the proper way of
going about doing this is not banning them, but showing them what
alternatives are available and *why* they should use the alternatives.
You and I know what the benefits of using open formats are, other
might not. People in the might have heard of them, but not given much
thought to why they should switch.

> > next time we will give guideline to submit presentations on Open format
>
> which has cross platform foss-tools. We will discuss in details in later
> thread when we will organise next camp.

We can of course put this forward as guideline but we should not *ban*
anything.

> > One must use a suitable licence for presentation before hand. Organise
>
> should not upload and decide the license of talk while uploading it.

Why should that be so? As an author, I have complete freedom to
license it whenever I want. The presentation I gave was tagged as CC-
licensed when I created them; anyone else can choose to release it
under that license later when uploading.

> > Yaar who the hell is concentrating on "slip of tounge", I am concentrating
>
> of distribution on non-foss tools in camp.

You were talking about that slip-of-tongue, by saying (to quote you):

"The person (I think Romil Mittal) came from adobe system for
introducing Flex was trying to misguide the public. He
has*DISTRIBUTED*some Abode product to student which is a
"Frerware"...He was telling that this is a "Free Software"."

For those who were present, you'd know this is an obvious
exaggeration. Romil Mittal acknowledged the mistake and apologized for
the fact then itself.

> > When I am trying to guide the camp by my experince It seems you are taking
>
> my input in totally wrong way.

It seems you're talking my input in a totally wrong way too. All I'm
saying is we should be an inclusive and welcoming group, not a bunch
of radical activists. We can provide guidelines, but banning / forcing
people to do something is not the right way forward when educating
people.

- Ankur Banerjee

Realin

unread,
Sep 7, 2009, 7:00:19 AM9/7/09
to osscam...@googlegroups.com
*laughs*

2009/9/7 Piyush <piyk...@gmail.com>

Tanay

unread,
Sep 7, 2009, 8:14:17 AM9/7/09
to OSScamp Delhi

Kinshuk Sunil

unread,
Sep 7, 2009, 9:52:24 AM9/7/09
to OSScamp Delhi
thread locked and closed.

lets have an IRC discussion tonight beginning 9pm if anyone wants to
take the discussion forward...

On Sep 7, 3:28 pm, narendra sisodiya <narendra.sisod...@gmail.com>
wrote:
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