"Route" vs. "Directions"

[Hardy]

Quick question to all our English-speaking users:

 

We have a suggestion to generally replace the use of our expression "Directions" by "Route". This would affect all our (English only) menu actions, buttons, etc., but certainly also help files, wikis, our user support, and last not least what users have been using in OsmAnd for several years now.

 

But it may be more in line with what other navigation apps use.

 

For or against it? Please comment here!

 

Thanks,

Hardy

 

[john whelan]

"Show route" makes more sense in British English than directions and we talk in terms of routing software rather than directions software but existing users are used to directions so although I'm in favour of the change it isn't totally black and white.

Cheerio John

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[V S]

I think there is a big issue with non technical users and also non native speakers but using English version ! I know quite a lot. So for them it will be a shock because we've already used 'route info' actually in context of list of directions. So they could get stuck and or frustrated with that change. On the other hand icon could help to identify action.

I don't have strong opinion about words, but is see lots of to do and release management troubles

Victor

[john whelan]

Perhaps there are higher priorities?  and release management issues shouldn't be underestimated.

Cheerio John

[Poutnik Fornntp]

Even if I am not a native English speaker, I think Route and Directions are not synonyms.

IMHO Route is intended or offered way to follow, while Directions ( or Route Directions ) are set of instructions how to manage it.
So Show Route means show the graph on map, while Show ( Route ) Directions means show verbose instructions.

But take my English with grain of salt.....

Dne pondělí, 25. srpna 2014 17:23:15 UTC+2 Hardy napsal(a):

 

We have a suggestion to generally replace the use of our expression "Directions" by "Route". ......

 

[john whelan]

I'd concur with your analysis.  If you're a non native speaker you are often taught formal rules when learning the language, I just picked it up off the streets.

However "Which route did you take?", "I followed the A1 until the pub then turned left..."  "Which route will you take?"  "I'll follow the A1 to the first cross roads after the railway line then I'll turn left."

Cheerio John

--

[Poutnik Fornntp]

I think is not not matter of language level.

In verbal communication,  you can hardly get anything else.
If you had a map or a route file, there would be drawn or pointed the way.

GPX route file with route points  - part of GPX format definition  - says something else.
There are no verbal directions.

Dne pondělí, 25. srpna 2014 19:58:59 UTC+2 john whelan napsal(a):

[Poutnik Fornntp]

If you would use Show route for Show directions, what would you use for Show route ?

As route and track already have their settled meanings, in context of GPS and maps,
while meaning of route in context of verbal communication is different.

It is kind of a clash of definitions of overlapping domains,,
as OSMand is both about maps and about communication :-)

Cheers, Libor aka Poutnik

Dne pondělí, 25. srpna 2014 19:58:59 UTC+2 john whelan napsal(a):

I'd concur with your analysis.  If you're a non native speaker you are often taught formal rules when learning the language, I just picked it up off the streets.

[matthew....@gatech.edu]

On Monday, August 25, 2014 11:23:15 AM UTC-4, Hardy wrote:

Quick question to all our English-speaking users:

 

We have a suggestion to generally replace the use of our expression "Directions" by "Route". This would affect all our (English only) menu actions, buttons, etc., but certainly also help files, wikis, our user support, and last not least what users have been using in OsmAnd for several years now.

I think "Directions" is much more common in American English for this usage (getting Directions from point A to point B).

I don't think I've ever heard route used this way except in OpenStreetMap-related software.  In a normal conversation, someone might say, "Can you give me directions to the grocery store?"  I don't think I've heard "Can you give me a route to the grocery store?" and certainly not "Can you route me to the grocery store?"  You can see other software uses Directions (Google Maps has "Directions", MapQuest Open has "Get Directions", etc.) (when in American English mode at least).  Counter-example, Google Maps has "Route options", but MapQuest Open has "Driving Options"/"Bicycle Options"/etc.

Note, I hear route more commonly used as a noun referring to the transit mode itself.  "Take Route 30 west until you pass the bank" (U.S. Route 30 is an actual road), "The bus route runs right past my house".

I suspect this may be an English variant issue.  In other words, you may need en-US (American English) and en-GB (British English).  I don't know what's common in British English for this topic.

Thanks,

Matt Flaschen

[Hardy]

Thanks, Matt, that has been my reasoning all along ever since I introduced "Directions" in OsmAnd many years ago  ... !

 

Yes, you are right, this is likely, if at all, an issue between American and British English. And I am with John further up this thread here: "Perhaps there are higher priorities?"   ...  :-)

 

So unless something more striking still comes up in this thread, I think my vote is with "let's keep it as we have had it for years now".   And I certainly feel like we have more pressing issues than maintaining both an en_GB and an en_US language file ... :-)

 

Best, Hardy

[Raindrops]

We are trying to imagine what verbal question we would ask to a local person, and then convert it EXACTLY to a GUI version.
This technique may not work! :)

We simply ask a local, "Can you please tell me how to go to XXX?" or "Can you please show me the way to xxx"?

The usage "Can you please give me directions to XXX?" is a little formal, and hence rarer.
That usage occurs mainly in an indirect sentence ("I asked for directions and came here")

But more importantly, the issue is NOT with the selection of the word, but WHEN it is used.

You never say "Can you give me directions?" without specifying the place.
Similarly, in OsmAnd, the menu option "Directions" is appropriate ONLY WHEN you invoke the menu from a point.
But it is not appropriate when there is no point defined.

On the other hand, defining/editing a route means all the points are yet to come: Start, destination, waypoints...
So it is a more natural choice...

[EnSun]

Hardy - The way it currently is makes total sense and it's not an issue. Please don't change it. Thanks.

On Monday, August 25, 2014 11:23:15 AM UTC-4, Hardy wrote:

[Toby Dickenson]

It sometimes uses "Directions To" and "Directions From", which are
fine. However some menus, for example on a Favourite, just have
"Directions" which I do find a little too brief.

[Harry van der Wolf]

We seem to be talking about en_US versus en_UK (versus en_CA, en_AU, en_NZ and about 10 more en_XX locales).

As far as I'm concerned: leave it as it is.

Next to that: I see quite some non-native English speakers mixing in in this topic (me included). However, these non-native speakers use the Gui probably in their native language (like Dutch for me) and might not be the best reference for this topic (me included).

Harry

[matthew....@gatech.edu]

I agree that in some cases, verbal speech and user interfaces differ.  In this case, I don't think the differences are that significant.  However, I addressed them anyway by citing existing user interfaces.

I specifically disagree with "the menu option "Directions" is appropriate ONLY WHEN you invoke the menu from a point."  You can see both MapQuest Open and Google Maps show the text "Directions" before you have specified any points.

OsmAnd doesn't need to re-invent the wheel here.

Matt Flaschen

On Tuesday, August 26, 2014 3:31:43 AM UTC-4, Raindrops wrote:

We are trying to imagine what verbal question we would ask to a local person, and then convert it EXACTLY to a GUI version.
This technique may not work! :)

That's why I cited other existing user interfaces in my post.

[Raindrops]

Well, the dialog is supposed to handle not only the start and destination points, but also the waypoints on the route.

Therefore if the guiding principle is to use the verbal form in the dialog, then it does not work with waypoints.

Do we ever use the term "waypoint" verbally?

Try this: "Can you give me the directions to xxx; with www, and zzz as waypoints?" That's awkward!

We say "Can tell me how to go to XXX via yyy and zzz?"

Point is, we should shy away from using the word "Route" if we are ok with a term like "waypoint".

On Monday, August 25, 2014 8:53:15 PM UTC+5:30, Hardy wrote:

[Raindrops]

oops- the last sentence should be:
Point is, why should we shy away from using the word "route" if we are ok with a term like "waypoint"?

BTW we should not consider the design for English alone: Its verbatim translation to other languages may become non-sensical!

Regards,
Narayan

On Monday, August 25, 2014 8:53:15 PM UTC+5:30, Hardy wrote:

[Raindrops]

Sorry I am not able to produce a cogent argument because overloading due to (a) day job, (b) testing OsmAnd and (c) Writing OsmAnd User Manual (WIP).
(Yes, a proper manual/wiki is on the way!)

Anyhow, here is the last part:

Actually the confusion arises because several terms are used wrongly:

1. In both verbal AND written forms, "directions" means instructions like "First go straight 1.5km, then turn left till you arrive at a big square, then..."
   You cannot call that a "route".
   Thus "Directions" is a sequenced list of maneuvers, road names/landmarks and distances.
   
   
2. A polyline drawn on a map can be only called a "route", not "directions".
   
   
3. When your travel agent gives you an "itinerary", it is a list of cities you will fly to (or places you will visit), with time+date and flight numbers.
   It cannot be called a "route" nor "directions".
   
   
4. When you see a road sign that shows a curve to left, roundabout, lane merge, etc; you prepare to maneuver your car accordingly.
   You maneuver your car hundreds of times along ANY road subconsciously. They are NOT a part of your route at all.
   In other words, these road signs neither represent "directions" nor "route".
   

Right?

Now compare that real-life situation with OsmAnd:

1. When we ask OsmAnd for "Directions", we get a route.
2. We get real directions labeled as "itinerary"
3. The directions command uses a road sign ("maneuver") icon.

Regards,
Narayan

On Monday, August 25, 2014 8:53:15 PM UTC+5:30, Hardy wrote:

[Peter B]

First: I am NOT english native speaker, only experienced user and programmer.

Please don't make it more complicated as it is, keep it simple.
It is not a bad idea to use the same terms as other programs use it since a long time.
It is more important that the user will recognize a term (from his experience of other programs), than the term would be preferred by a philologist.

Again: keep it simple!
Peter

[bcno...@gmail.com]

Hi,
I'm British born and English speaking, at 69 I think I have a good command of the English language and the way it's used, rightly or wrongly. I am also a new user of OsmAnd, (just a few weeks use and still figuring it out). I have used a few other routing programmes as well as the good old map, paper and pencil method of working out/writing down how to get from A to B.
So as a new user my blunt impression is that OsmAnd's wording is confusing.
IMHO I think "directions" is a set of instructions to follow through one after the other (start to finish) in order to drive/walk from A to B. When printed out or given to someone it is a list of those instructions.
IMHO I think "route" is depiction of a set of instructions to follow in order to drive/walk from A to B. When printed out or given to someone it is a picture of those instructions.
Regards

[Rodolfo]

Living in a trilingual social environment with two more languages (one native) in my backpack, I become more and more convinced, that understanding each other is far more important than a pinpoint word choice. But to satisfy users in this respect, perhaps (or: maybe) the differences between English and American could be honoured (or: honored) by the introduction of separate language files. Up to now, Osmand mixes the two languages to the disgust of some users I know. From an educational point of view, I too find it interesting to distinguish between Favourites and Favorites, but that my personal aberration :)
Rodolfo

[matthew....@gatech.edu]

When you ask OsmAnd for directions, you get both directions and a route (even according to your definition of 'route').  I don't see the string 'itinerary' anywhere in the user interface.

Finally, no one said the translation had to be 100% literal.  When doing a phrase -> phrase translation, it can use an appropriate phrase in the target language, not necessary the most literal one.

The directions icon does resemble a street sign, but again, this is not unusual.  Google Maps does the same thing (different icon, but same concept)

Matt Flaschen

[Raindrops]

Your points are easily explained:

OsmAnd does NOT provide both the graphic version and list together.
First it shows the graphic ("route") view only.

To get the list view, you have to do three operations-
(a) tap on the screen to activate the Navigation toolbar,
(b) tap on the Waysign icon,
(c) in the Waypoints dialog that pops up, tap on the [i] button.

In other words, you cannot toggle between the list view and graphic view directly on screen.

Therefore, the button that directly shows only the graphic view should be named after the list view.

*******
Notice that Google map has a fork with one branch highlighted.
That represents answering a dilemma: "Should I go this way, or that?"
And that is the essence of "giving directions": To reach the destination, we would need similar answer at each fork/crossing we arrive at.

To sum up, the "Right turn" symbol cannot match in meaning to the "fork symbol with one branch highlighted".
BTW you will never see this road sign in real life-- It's symbolism!

That said, it cannot match the sense of "guiding the driver till destination".
Compare it with the icon here or here or here.

********

Ok I just noticed that the word "itinerary" is replaced by "Route details" in the latest nightly. So that's resolved.
It did exist in earlier versions, though.

Regards,
Narayan

On Monday, August 25, 2014 8:53:15 PM UTC+5:30, Hardy wrote:

[Raindrops]

Corrected: Therefore, the button that directly shows only the graphic view (="route") should NOT be named after the List view (=Directions").

On Monday, August 25, 2014 8:53:15 PM UTC+5:30, Hardy wrote:

[Sabra Sharaya]

Changing "directions" to "route" would be very bad for the American English version. It would be worse than saying "add a waypoint" instead of "add a stop".

[Hardy]

Thanks for the discussion! After reading all this, my takeaway is confirmed that we are 95% talking an en_US vs. en_GB issue. We may some day have 2+ en_XX localization files, but it will certainly create support issues for us, and we have other (functionality) priorities for now. And we are still struggling with getting all devices to honor the correct tts voice, I think a more pressing issue (unknown bug there, most GB devices seem to speak en_US).

 

Thanks to Toby above for pointing out that not all our point-related context menus used "Directions to", so I fixed that.

 

I will make no other changes for now. Until someone comes up with an undisputed suggestion of what exactly to change to what, where, and when,  I think we have reached a compromised we can live with.

 

Thx - Hardy

 

 

Other than that, I see no real inconsistency with how we use our terms now (knowing that a 100% solu)

[Hardy]

In summary:

 

I think we should not be too complicated here: I view "Directions" for now as our term of choice for "How do I get there?". I have adjusted all context-sensitive situations to now consistently display "Directions to" (or "Directions from"), as appropriate. But I guess there is little value in diversifying between directions, route, itinerary, etc.,  this may cause more confusion than clarity. 

 

Best, Hardy