OSM tags vs OsmAnd tags

[Hugo Barrocas]

Hi all.

I have debated with Harry about this in Github, and Victor also entered the topic, but since this subject was debated, it went nowhere, so I'll post it here and see about other user opinions.

In 2014, when adding or editing a POI in Osmand, the categories and values were the same as the ones  used in OSM, for example, we could add a POI amenity=fuel, and all was fine.

If some of you noticed, this has changed a lot in this year, and now Osmand uses its own set of categories and values, that get "translated" to be sent to OSM tags.

So, in 2015 versions, if we want to add the exact same POI (amenity=fuel), in Osmand we have to select Transportation=Gas Station (with undernote OSM amenity=fuel).

I disagree with this, and I do believe that (whenever possible) OSM tagging should be used.
For the ones who do OSM mapping, it does make a difference, and it would also be a better guide for Osmand users to further integrate the OSM community, by using the same tags.
So, instead of an obvious connection between OSM and Osmand, any user will have to learn and decorate at least 2 different tags/names for the same things, for the same purpose. Not good.

I think it should be the other way around, just maintain the stock Osm categories and tags untouched, and if necessary, provide a translated sub-note to help in better understanding the tags.

That way, Osmand would still use regular Osm tags, mappers would have no problems using it, and the non-pro user would also have a help/guide/translator for better osm tagging understanding, like this:

amenity=fuel
(Gas Station)

Even if we typed "Gas Station", it could also be a valid (pop-up) choice, but the end result should always be amenity=fuel (Gas Station).

Please see attached pic that I composed using Osmand "Add/Edit module" to try and explain what I thing is wrong, and how it could be.
Marked Red is what I think is wrong.
Marked Green is how I think it should be (and most of it was like this, back in 2014)

Opinions on this subject, please?

[Aceman444]

Hi.
Does it make a difference if the OsmAnd translated label is in the first line or the second?
I'd say it doesn't, IF users could decide which tag input to use, whether the OsmAnd categorization, or whether inputting raw OSM tags.
Otherwise I like the other suggestions you wrote in green in the image.

But do many people actually use OsmAnd to create real nodes, input real tags and then upload it to OSM?
I find that tedious without a real keyboard and then OsmAnd still does not support editing polygons (ways).

Dňa streda, 13. mája 2015 23:56:04 UTC+2 Hugo Barrocas napísal(-a):

[Greg Troxel]

Aceman444 <acesha...@gmail.com> writes:

> Does it make a difference if the OsmAnd translated label is in the first
> line or the second?
> I'd say it doesn't, IF users could decide which tag input to use, whether
> the OsmAnd categorization, or whether inputting raw OSM tags.
> Otherwise I like the other suggestions you wrote in green in the image.

I'm not sure it really matters, but I prefer to have the actual osm tags
be primary, because I think people who map just have to learn that.

> But do many people actually use OsmAnd to create real nodes, input real
> tags and then upload it to OSM?
> I find that tedious without a real keyboard and then OsmAnd still does not
> support editing polygons (ways).

I add POIs as nodes sometimes.

[Metaluc]

I prefer use of the standard osm tags.

[Peter B]

I fully agree to Hugo.
The editing of tags is osm specific (not osmand) so this sould be used. Osm mappers should be able to use always the same tagging, irrespective to which tool they use.
Thanks Hugo for this ideas.
Regards Peter

[Harry van der Wolf]

Hi,

You mention "I have debated with Harry about this in Github, and Victor also entered the topic ...".

Was that me? I can't remember anything of it, in case you really mean me. Or did you mean Hardy?

Anyway: I fully agree to using standard OSM tags. Not even for POIs but also for all other keys and tags.

If OsmAnd uses its own translation, then that should be additional.

When talking about features, issues, bugs, unclear situations in maps or whatever, you need to speak "one language", which is the OSM "language".

It is difficult already. When using gas station, which is american, any other non-american could also mean with gas, to make the confusion even bigger, the "type=" like biogas, lpg, cng, hydrogen.

This is tagged as: amenity=fuel; type=*   where type can also be one the mentioned or any other of the types available.

So please stick to standards!

Harry

2015-05-14 0:51 GMT+02:00 Metaluc <rick...@gmail.com>:

I prefer use of the standard osm tags.

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[Hugo Barrocas]

Yes, it was Hardy, not Harry, sorry for the misspell.

I use Osmand everyday, and I add/edit dozens of Poi daily, so it does
matter to me, since I have to jump around Osm and Osmand, and double
tags for the same result complicates an already hard work of knowing
what tag is more adequate for a POI.

I started with Osmand and only after I went to Osm, but using the same
tags made it simple and clear.

If someone started the same procedure today, it would be harder for a
novice to understand why the tags are different.

Osmand is very usefull, and also a begginers tool to help new people
to jump to Osm and start editing, adding info to make our maps better
and more complete.

So using the same tags is an advantage for both, and a simpler way to
do the same tasks.

If a translation is necessary, it should be used as a secondary
optional tag (transportation=gas station), and that would have to be
separate translated files for each language, all related to the
primary Osm tag "amenity=fuel".

I only listed this "fuel" as a common example, but the tags list is long.

Another example:
Osm amenity=toilets
is now
Osmand services=restroom. See the difference?

Please use the Osm tags.

It makes the Osm/Osmand user experience much more easy and logic.

--
Cumprimentos,
D.er Hugo Barrocas

[Osmandtrier]

Hugo, can you remember and explain the justification for this change?

[Aceman444]

But also other editing apps use their own systems. Even in JOSM you can use presets, where you just look through a tree of items and search for what you want via a translated label. Only once you use the preset you get to see what tags got applied to the object. I think the same is in Potlatch 2 where you can choose from predefined objects.

So this is not OsmAnd specific. But it must not be the only way to enter tags. Advanced users must be able to input tags directly without the "presets" being in the way.

Dňa štvrtok, 14. mája 2015 8:50:36 UTC+2 Peter B napísal(-a):

[Hugo Barrocas]

It looks like the file phrases.xml has been "translated" to American
English, and a reset of categories and values was made to match it.

All POI add/edit/display info depends on that file.

What happens is that we now can only use the new Osmand categories and
values (transportation=gas station), and Osmand will internally tag it
to the standart (amenity=fuel) to send it to Osm.

We cannot add a Poi directly as amenity=fuel anymore.

[Hugo Barrocas]

Aceman, you are correct, but that is because in JOSM there is the Osm
primary tag (that you may work with) and the optional available
translated versions, that you may choose in pop-ups and etc, but they
also get converted to the OSM tag.

In Osmand you now only have the American English translated version to
work with.

I'm not against translations, but I do think that Osmand is going the
wrong way with this subject.

The Osm tags should be the primary available choice, and there could
be optional translated categories and values to choose/work, but they
should instantly redirect to the OSM primary tag.

For example, if I was American, I could choose the Gas Station, and
Osmand could imediatly change it to the amenity=fuel, displaying the
(Gas Station) translation below the primary tag.

That would make sense, and would be similar to what happens in JOSM.

But it would be necessary translations for any language.

The phrases.xml file should be the stock OSM tagged file, and the
optional translations should be localized versions, related to the
stock phrases.xml file.

[Aceman444]

The phrases.xml file is translatable via the weblate translation system that OsmAnd also uses for all the other UI texts.
See at https://hosted.weblate.org/projects/osmand/phrases/ .
Or is that not what you meant?

Dňa štvrtok, 14. mája 2015 12:39:26 UTC+2 Hugo Barrocas napísal(-a):

[Hugo Barrocas]

I'm not a dev or coder, I'm just a user, OSM mapper, and Designer.

I don't know how Osmand works, I can only see the results in the app
night builds.

Part of the issue appears to be from this:
https://github.com/osmandapp/Osmand/blob/master/OsmAnd/res/values/phrases.xml

But I think that this alone does not tottaly explain how the
categories and values changed, it must also be in some other part.

What I meant is explained in the image I uploaded in the first post.

[Aceman444]

What tags relate to which strings (names) can be see in the file https://github.com/osmandapp/OsmAnd-resources/blob/master/poi/poi_types.xml .
Yes, these POIs and they translations were rearchitected for v2.0.

Dňa štvrtok, 14. mája 2015 14:58:37 UTC+2 Hugo Barrocas napísal(-a):

[Hugo Barrocas]

So that means we won't be able to add or edit POI using OSM standard tags anymore, correct?
Or is that option anywere in the shelf possibilities?

[Hugo Barrocas]

Just downloaded today night build, and I noticed that we can now choose to write some of the OSM standart values (fuel, clothes, etc) and they are a valid pop-up option.

Thanks to who did it! :)

[Hugo Barrocas]

Well, that didn't last long...

In today's night build, when adding Poi, the OSM tags (fuel, toilets, clothes, etc.) are no longer available to write as a valid "pop-up" value :(

What's going on?