Unpaved roads

[P Wat]

If I select a destination +mode Bike +"Avoid unpaved roads", why do OsmAnd directions frequently include unpaved roads?

[Aceman444]

Does OsmAnd know they are unpaved? Is that data in the map? You enable display of road quality in options of the renderer.

Dňa streda, 7. januára 2015 9:38:22 UTC+1 P Wat napísal(-a):

[P Wat]

Hi Aceman444
You ask; "Does OsmAnd know they are unpaved?"
See the attached picture. Now do you think Osmand knows the route is unpaved?  Location part way along the indicated path, which is grass/mud, is 51.521754, -0.956513.  Surfaced route is by via Devil's Hill, Henley-on-Thames RG9, UK.
So, when I've selected "Avoid unpaved roads", why do OsmAnd directions frequently include unpaved roads?
PW

[Aceman444]

The quality of the roads is color-coded and the explanations of the colors can be seen here:
https://github.com/osmandapp/osmandapp.github.io/blob/master/online-knowledge-base/map-legend_default.png

I am not sure why on the picture the route goes over a field and there is even no road visible.

Dňa nedeľa, 11. januára 2015 22:14:10 UTC+1 P Wat napísal(-a):

[Paul W]

Hi Aceman44

You are correct, in this example it is a field, then woods and more field.  A path does exist there.  It is what we in UK call a public footpath.  In this instance it is just bare grass/earth/mud.  It is OK for walking on, but is definitely not surfaced.

I have encountered several similar examples of routing on unsurfaced paths.

What can be done about it?

Thanks

PW

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[Osmandtrier]

Look at https://raw.githubusercontent.com/osmandapp/OsmAnd-resources/master/routing/routing.xml . Who have done this routing for cyclist must be a total complete idiot. Sorry for saying that. But he do not understand technical  to write a routing file. The things are so wrong, that it cost to much time to explain, what is wrong.

[Max]

Now do you think Osmand knows the route is unpaved?  Location part way along the indicated path, which is grass/mud, is 51.521754, -0.956513.

OsmAnd does not know it, because the surface information is missing in OpenStreetMap data in this case:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/34425411
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/35414993

Regards,
Max

[Max]

A mistake I can find is that the access hierarchy is not considered (in car routing it is).
But the avoid unpaved option seems to be right.

Regards,
Max

[Osmandtrier]

If the public footpath would be tagged correct with highway=path, it would be the same problem. But this does not change anything what I am saying. The english situation clearify, that the routing is rubbish and totaly wrong.

[Aceman444]

So can you propose a better one?

Yes, even a highway=path+surface=mud is allowed for cycling in that file, even though with reduced priority. Is that what you mean?

Dňa pondelok, 12. januára 2015 11:29:51 UTC+1 Osmandtrier napísal(-a):

[Osmandtrier]

Why should I? There are developer, who are tinking, there are professional enough to take money of the people. The mistakes are 1/2 year old. The people are complaining about the slow cycle routing. The mistakes are one reason for the slow routing.

Mistakes are possible, but this kind of mistakes are so typical for osmand - a lack of qualitycontroll - that i do not waste my time to do the work of other people, who earn money with this work.

[Aceman444]

Dňa pondelok, 12. januára 2015 22:04:32 UTC+1 Osmandtrier napísal(-a):

Why should I? There are developer, who are tinking, there are professional enough to take money of the people. The mistakes are 1/2 year old. The people are complaining about the slow cycle routing. The mistakes are one reason for the slow routing.

Mistakes are possible, but this kind of mistakes are so typical for osmand - a lack of qualitycontroll - that i do not waste my time to do the work of other people, who earn money with this work.

I don't think they take any money for the OsmAnd code itself. The trivial ~5EUR payment is for providing the binary build of OsmAnd and the service of generating the maps. Because if you do not like to pay that, you can just take the source code and build it yourself and you can also create your own maps.

Other "professional" software costs much more and you do not even get the code.

So when you do not pay for the SW, I do not see why you would have to refuse to "pay" with some work or ideas or bug reports.

[Osmandtrier]

I don't think they take any money for the OsmAnd code itself. The trivial ~5EUR payment is for providing the binary build of OsmAnd and the service of generating the maps. Because if you do not like to pay that, you can just take the source code and build it yourself and you can also create your own maps.

Other "professional" software costs much more and you do not even get the code.

So when you do not pay for the SW, I do not see why you would have to refuse to "pay" with some work or ideas or bug reports.

How do you know, I did not pay. I have paid two times.  For what I waste my time is my business. And report bugs in osmand is wasting time. I have enough expirience.

Let me put me in this way, I hope, that your routing file will not get official.

[Harry van der Wolf]

Hi Osmandtrier,

You are only negative about OsmAnd. Why don't you leave it behind and choose another app.

I am very critical myself occasionally and have stated my opinion multiple times in this forum.

I agree that quality control could be much better. However, the fact that there are so few developers certainly plays a role. OsmAnd is open source. Having paid a few euros or maybe even twice doesn't change the fact that it is still much cheaper then other options.

If you think these other options are worth the substancial amount of money, then switch to it.

Also: the amount of money is probably less then what one would spend having an evening out with a few drinks.

I have no idea what you think about this money going to the developer(s), but a great deal of the little money OsmAnd costs is going to the servers and the bandwidth for downloading from these servers. 

There are also several illegal clones "out in the wild" which also download from these servers.

The developer(s) certainly don't get rich of it: not at all.

It is an open source project because they like what they do and spend a lot of time in it for only very little money.

I haven't used OsmAnd for car navigating for about 6 months because of it being it so memory and CPU hungry. I have mentioned that several times. 

Being Open Source also means that I can create my own maps, render file(s) and/or routing profile (I have set the heuristic coefficient to 1.35 for car routing and I'm very happy now: Fast routing up to 950 km). 

Now having others working on the bicycle routing is exactly what an open source project needs. The fact that you think it is rubbish doesn't change the fact that others think it is useful. And it might indeed take a little longer to develop a good bicycle router. Priority has indeed been on car routing. 

Garmin has good cycle routing and car routing but is a 1+ billion (1.000.000.000+) dollar company with over 1200 employees. And those devices cost quite some money.

OsmAnd is only a very small team of volunteers.

I now have a new phone and use OsmAnd again. Despite the heavy system requirements it is the best in this open source area with all the features it has, even if you don use them all (at all): routing for car, cycle, foot, contour lines, hillshade layers, Osmo, a zillion possibilities for online maps as overlay, several routing engines to choose from: both offline and online.

And it also has quirks, yes. 

And some bugs are fast corrected (especially if you send the exception logs as OsmAnd offers you to do) and some bugs take quite some long time to finish.

Harry

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[Osmandtrier]

How many time did it cost to you, help the people with the heuristic coeffizient. Perhaps you have still learned you hhave got this idea from me. How many times did it cost me to figure out this. Let us figure out how many money we could earn not having to spend time on suc things. How many professional SW we could buy.

How many hours did it cost to me, to figure out how the cyclenetwork rendering is working. Osmand now use this work.

How many hours did it cost to me to figure out my own map rendering. This was wiped out by a change of osmand. Documentation of change? No!

I made it possible, that routing with cyclenetwork is possible. Victor said my code is wrong. His own was wrong. The funny thing,, I am a classical trained musican, who learned a little bit Basic on old big commodore PCs.

All this hours of time, how many proffesional SW I could buy.

And the last four bugs I have reported, are claimed to be fixed. The are not.

And now the bicyclerouting. Someone did in sommer a big change. Cut out the heuristic coeffizent. Did so fummy things, that cyclist drive on a footway faster than on a secondary road.

No one tested it. Now aceman try to improve it. Seeing his changes, it is obvious he do not understand the math behind the values.

No a challenge for you.

Given values for routing

highway=path speed=5km/h priority=0.2
highway=unclassified speed=17 priotity=1
surface=paved speed=15km/h priotity=1.1
surface=unpaved speed=18km/h priotiy=0.7
bicycle=designated speed=18 priority=1.5

Now the questions, what speed and priority have a path wich is unpaved but is designated to bicycles.
Which priority and speed have a unpaved unclassified road.
What is the syntax to differenciate path - path/designated/unpaved - Path/unpaved- path/paved/designated - Path/paved

Aceman could also answer.

Tell me the time, how long you need to figure out the answer. Also Aceman

Do it really.

Afterwards we compare it with the the time I need to figure out this kind of question with brouter.

Then we compare me computerscience skills with yours, also aceman.

You think aceman is a nice guy, because he make efforts to improve osmand. And I am so negative about osmand, because it cause him to do this efforts. Looking to his efforts, I see, he have to do more efforts, because his skills about the routing are not good enough.

So bad work cause people without adequate skills taking efforts to improve the bad work. Because of their skills it cause a lot of time. This are the great opportunities of the opensource project osmand. (To solve the problem in routing.xml should need only 30 minutes, if you know enough.)

You argue economic. With a economic view, it would be better buy a proffessional SW.

You argue social.

You can measure your social worth only with your own efforts. That is a easy way to feel like a good human being. Or you can measure your social worth with your own efforts and the efforts, which are cause to other people by your efforts. With this point of view, social can mean to do nothing.

At the info of osmand, the DV thanks you for the input. Are you unpartial? Could it be, that you are defending your self-esteem.

Solve the challenge, we compare, and then we will talk again.

[Aceman444]

Dňa streda, 28. januára 2015 9:07:31 UTC+1 Osmandtrier napísal(-a):

How many time did it cost to you, help the people with the heuristic coeffizient. Perhaps you have still learned you hhave got this idea from me. How many times did it cost me to figure out this. Let us figure out how many money we could earn not having to spend time on suc things. How many professional SW we could buy.

How many hours did it cost to me, to figure out how the cyclenetwork rendering is working. Osmand now use this work.

Great, thanks for your contribution. So why is it suddenly bad to contribute anything from anyone?

How many hours did it cost to me to figure out my own map rendering. This was wiped out by a change of osmand. Documentation of change? No!

Can you even create your own map rendering in any commercial SW? Open-source has its pros and cons.
 

I made it possible, that routing with cyclenetwork is possible. Victor said my code is wrong. His own was wrong. The funny thing,, I am a classical trained musican, who learned a little bit Basic on old big commodore PCs.

All this hours of time, how many proffesional SW I could buy.

And the last four bugs I have reported, are claimed to be fixed. The are not.

I can confirm that, the bugtracker (there were even mutiple ones) is a strange place and the devs sometimes drive it strangely. I feel your pain.
 

And now the bicyclerouting. Someone did in sommer a big change. Cut out the heuristic coeffizent. Did so fummy things, that cyclist drive on a footway faster than on a secondary road.

No one tested it. Now aceman try to improve it. Seeing his changes, it is obvious he do not understand the math behind the values.

Sure. But some things can be done even without exact maths.

 

No a challenge for you.

Given values for routing

highway=path speed=5km/h priority=0.2
highway=unclassified speed=17 priotity=1
surface=paved speed=15km/h priotity=1.1
surface=unpaved speed=18km/h priotiy=0.7
bicycle=designated speed=18 priority=1.5

This is not OsmAnd syntax, so the example is ill-defined.
 

Now the questions, what speed and priority have a path wich is unpaved but is designated to bicycles.

Assuming that example above somehow resembles OsmAnd syntax, this would be speed=5km/h priority=0.2 .
 

Which priority and speed have a unpaved unclassified road.

Assuming that example above somehow resembles OsmAnd syntax, this would be speed=17 priority=1.

If you want different answers, then first fix your task definition.

What is the syntax to differenciate path - path/designated/unpaved - Path/unpaved- path/paved/designated - Path/paved

No idea. I do not know how to evaluate multiple tags or boolean operators in the file. The file is not documented much. But at least I have contributed something in this area.

 

Aceman could also answer.

Tell me the time, how long you need to figure out the answer. Also Aceman

Do it really.

Afterwards we compare it with the the time I need to figure out this kind of question with brouter.

Then we compare me computerscience skills with yours, also aceman.

You think aceman is a nice guy, because he make efforts to improve osmand. And I am so negative about osmand, because it cause him to do this efforts. Looking to his efforts, I see, he have to do more efforts, because his skills about the routing are not good enough.

So you do not like that OsmAnd needs some effort from me, because nobody has made it better yet. Including you.

So bad work cause people without adequate skills taking efforts to improve the bad work. Because of their skills it cause a lot of time. This are the great opportunities of the opensource project osmand. (To solve the problem in routing.xml should need only 30 minutes, if you know enough.)

Yes, because you do not want to help, somebody who does not know the routing that well has to spend much more time than you would. Instead he could do something better on other part of the SW that maybe even you would use. Great attitude. Sure, it is your choice, just don't complain if you do nothing.
 

You argue economic. With a economic view, it would be better buy a proffessional SW.

If everything you can do in OsmAnd you could also do in professional SW, then maybe true (can't be decided because it is not known expensive it would be in that case as it doesn't exist).
Otherwise untrue. Applies to any program up to even operating systems.

> Solve the challenge, we compare, and then we will talk again.

There is no useful challenge here. You know something we don't. So what? Either share it, help or do not get in the way. If you do not want to play open-source rules, why are you using it and why are you discouraging others?

[Osmandtrier]

highway=path speed=5km/h priority=0.2

highway=unclassified speed=17 priotity=1
surface=paved speed=15km/h priotity=1.1
surface=unpaved speed=18km/h priotiy=0.7
bicycle=designated speed=18 priority=1.5

This is not OsmAnd syntax, so the example is ill-defined.

 
I thought clever people would be able to recognize in this abbreviated version the refer to the syntax.

 

[Peter B]

Osmandtrier, you are more and more offensive against other people who are contribuing to the project.
What about leaving this forum when you are here so unhappy !
Bye, Peter

[Osmandtrier]

They are offensive to me, because I explained to a person, which asked for help, why I do not want help in this case.

Sometimes truth, mainly the sad one, looks like to be offensive.

Am Donnerstag, 29. Januar 2015 10:09:36 UTC+1 schrieb Peter B:

[Peter B]

Osmandtrier, my statement "more and more offensive..." does not refer to a single comment, but to a lot of them.
Please note as well the comment of Harry v.d.W of 2015-01-27.
Peter

[Osmandtrier]

I do not see any offensive words. I try to clearify my statement by a challenge. Let me put in this way, if a project ask a guy with my skills for help and contribution than that it is not because I am a genius, that is a not very nice advice to the quality of the project.

I am sure that Harry know a lot more about computer science. But I am sure he needs more time to answer  my challenge at osmand  than I need at brouter.

So the question is, why is a DAU quicker in a other project compared to someone who seems to have  computerscience skills over average.

[Rodolfo]

In my opinion, Osmandtrier contributed a lot of useful posts this forum.
Not only negative, but most of them very positive and creative ideas!
So why invite him to leave now?
There are more positively-critical members in this forum who do not approve all the current developments.
I think, people like Osmandtrier are needed to help the app to become better. I thank him for that.

[john whelan]

I get the impression that English is not his first language and he might not express his views as tactfully as he might but he does identify a number of issues which if rectified should make the product stronger.

These are not personal attacks but identifying issues.

However >Osmandtrier, you are more and more offensive against other people who are contribuing to the project.

This is not an issue but a personal attack, its the word "you" here.

Forums generally run smoother without the "you" word.  Forums generally run smoother with a bit more tact.

Cheerio John

--

[Harry van der Wolf]

Thank you John. You are completely right (and I'm still using the "you" word :) ).

I'm not a native speaker either and when I mentioned "You are only negative about osmand", I should have mentioned "You are only negative about osmand lately" because osmandtrier is a long-time contributor to this mailing list.

Partially I disagree with him and partially I do agree.

When I mentioned to leave Osmand, I did not order him to go. I simply meant that if there are better alternatives it is better to switch. 

That's why I also mentioned in my post that I haven't used OsmAnd for car navigation for about 6 months (after another few months of growing frustration). 

I switched to Map Navigator Free about 6-7 months ago. It is fast, runs also on older phones and has good car navigation (but only good car navigation. bicyle routing is not as good as OsmAnd/Brouter, or far worse to put it otherwise)

Now I received a fairly high-power mobile and now I can run OsmAnd well enough. OsmAnd simply offers more then other apps, but also requires far more from your phone.

For the rest: we simply disagree on a number of topics. That's not the end of the world. It is simply as it is. Discussion can lead to mutual agreement but can also create distance.

Harry

[Osmandtrier]

Comparing your examples with
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dfootway and the result of http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/85T
I would say, the main problem is the tagging in the UK.

The OSM-Wiki is not very clear about footpathes in the UK
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_Tagging_Guidelines#Pedestrian_access
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/UK_access_provisions#Public_footpaths


So theoretical it would be possible to differ the ways, but practical not, because of the mess in OSM. We have the same in Germany with cycleways.

[P Wat]

Hi Osmandtrier
Thanks for this input. - Quite a lot to digest after a long day.  I'll have to give it proper consideration before commenting fully.
PW