Copyright Trademark issue on using Red cross's plus icon for health facilities

[amrit karmacharya]

We presented the use of OSMAnd in offline situation like during Disaster to Red Cross Society. They were very impressed by the app, so congratulations to OSMAnd team. They did point out that the icons used  for hospitals and health facilities is that of the Red Cross, They have asked to use the universally accepted H icon for those facilities.

[sympa]

The icons are pink/purple and not red, aren't they? And in a circle? Shouldn't that be different enough?

[EvanCanton]

Within the last year, I've read several news reports of app-makers who had to change imagery in their apps because of the copyright on the red-cross symbol.  Several of them adopted the blue star of life (see Google Images) which looks like a blue asterisk containing the staff of Asclepius which is a staff with one snake entwined upon it not to be confused with a cadecues which is a winged staff with two snakes upon it.  The blue star of life is seen on most ambulances, hospital entrances, and on some medical equipment.  It may be a better choice than the H symbol, especially since some critical care and first-aid facilities are not actually hospitals.  It may be a good idea for the developer to proactively address this to avoid a whole slew of stress than can result from copyright issues.  Personally, I find it somewhat ironic that the Red Cross, an institution dedicated to saving lives would object to their symbologies usage as it is so well understood that, in a map, it could literally save lives, but my opinions may not be entirely informed.

[Martin Gregor]

from the Red Cross site (the highlight is mine):

Brand Standards

Welcome to the American Red Cross Brand Standards site. It includes downloadable, print-quality vector files and .pngs of the Red Cross logos and guidance on how to use them. For more information on this and other elements of our brand identity, download the Brand identification poster.

The American Red Cross name and logo are trademarks of the American Red Cross. Our trademark rights in American Red Cross and the red cross emblem date back to 1881. With the exception of a few individuals and companies that used the Greek red cross before 1905, the American Red Cross has the exclusive right to use the Greek red cross in the United States.

If you are not an authorized Red Cross user, you must have express permission from the American Red Cross to download and use our logo. Please remember that the American Red Cross logo should be used correctly—it is one of our most valuable assets. It is an image that stands as a worldwide symbol of goodwill and humanitarianism.

On Wednesday, September 18, 2013 1:59:22 AM UTC-4, amrit karmacharya wrote:

[Rodolfo]

I think the red cross symbol is far out the best recognized logo for health emergency locations on the map.
So instead of changing it, I suggest to ask for permission. The use of this logo in OsmAnd is clearly meant to help save lifes, so their organization cannot possibly deny permission without sacrificing their own aims.
See also: http://www.redcross.org/about-us/media-resources/logo/brand-standards

[Harry van der Wolf]

The point is that a hospital or health facility is NOT the Red Cross. Even more: health facilities can be commercial as well.

It's simply not the same!

The blue H icon is the international symbol for hospitals. Every map maker should use that symbol. t is just as important as 112 (or 911) as the standard emergency phone number.

We definitely should use the blue H icon to make a separation between normal hospitals and health facilties, and the Red Cross.

And we should be glad that someone finally pointed it out to us.

The Red Cross it a totally different organization then any hospital or healh organisation. If we have maps in e.g. Africa where refugee camps are located with (emergency) hospitals from the Red Cross Organisation, then (!) we should use the Red Cross. And not for anything else.

(And if we are so ignorant why don't we use the red half moon in Islamic countries?).

Harry

[Rodolfo]

Harry, you are right, a hospital is (in general) not part of the red cross organization. But there are some reasons to stick to the current logo for the time being:
-- Osmand now uses the same logo as OSM, so if we change it, we better see to it that OSM also changes it to keep the "connection".
-- The blue H may be a standard, but is not used in the best known map systems. Google maps has a red H on white in a grey circle, ViaMichelin uses a white H in a blue square (is this the standard you mean?), Michelin paper maps use the same logo as we do, Bing maps does not seem to use any symbol at all (??) and many (local) tourist maps use the blue H for hotels! (either just a blue H or a white H in blue)
So I think the two most logical options are either to keep the current logo (with permission) or to organize a change together with OSM.
Best regards, Rodolfo

[Harry van der Wolf]

2013/9/21 Rodolfo <rodo...@gmail.com>

and many (local) tourist maps use the blue H for hotels! (either just a blue H or a white H in blue)

I didn't think of that but you are right. I've seen them a lot as well.

 

So I think the two most logical options are either to keep the current logo (with permission) or to organize a change together with OSM.
Best regards, Rodolfo

Actually the Red Cross should arrange "something" with OSM. OsmAnd is just one of the stakeholders involved with OSM data.

So how to get a (major) team member of the OSM team in contact with the Red Cross.

Harry

 

[Rodolfo]

Sorry Sympa, I did not pay enough attention to your post, which quite correctly points to the differences between the logos.
I'm not a registered trademark expert, but I guess the differences are indeed enough to prevent a copyright claim. Or not?

[Nico W]

We are talking about the AMERICAN red cross, how about the INTERNATIONAL red cross?

In the US every symbol and every phrase is being trademarked to the point it is getting ridiculous. Very soon you can't say anything without being taken to court. Example: It's bad! So what is bad: weather, traffic, spoiled food.....

[pshrutpark]

This is my understanding regarding the Red Cross.

The Red Cross (on white background) is the instantly recognisable worldwide symbol of the Red Cross and its operations. It symbolises the organisation's independence, impartiality, and neutrality. These factors, and others, are essential to the success of its operations under extremely dangerous and difficult conditions.

The Red Cross is not confined to the organisation's medical operations but also to its humanitarian relief in war zones and scenes of natural disasters, plus the welfare of prisoners of war etc.

Recognition and respect for the organisation represented by the symbol is critical.

For the above reasons, the Red Cross is very protective of the symbol. It is quite simply a matter of life and death.

Therefore, to use the Red Cross is a general map symbol of medical sites is inappropriate and doing a disservice. I believe this would also extend to closely imitating the Red Cross symbol and therefore potentially misleading people.

Regards

[Max]

This is the official "First Aid" road sign of Germany:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei:Zeichen_358.svg

Moreover, the "Federal Highway Research Institute" a government agency of Germany (Bundesanstalt für Straßenwesen) has a directive to use the "Red Cross" sign for all first aid stations and for hospitals (with a black roof):
http://www.bast.de/nn_42544/DE/Aufgaben/abteilung-v/referat-v1/v1-verkehrszeichen/unterseiten/symbole_20-rwb-2000.html

Regards,
Max

[john whelan]

My understanding is OSM does not have a standard render, each rendering chooses its own icons etc.  Life would be simpler if OSM set some standards then they could deal with these issues but that doesn't seem to be the way that OSM functions.

The American Red Cross has to enforce its American copyright when it is brought to their attention either by licensing or otherwise otherwise it falls by the wayside.

There are some standard icon sets such as the http://www.aiga.org/symbol-signs/ set, note that first aid does not use a red cross.

Currently the icon used by OSMAND is not an exact copy of the American Red Cross icon.  I accept that in some locations in the world such as Germany the American Red Cross Society's copyright is not enforceable.

We know that OSMAND is used in disaster areas where the Red Cross operates perhaps they would be happy if we used their icon to map where they are operating.

My suggestion is OSMAND changes its icons to be more distinct from the American Red Cross Society to avoid conflict. 

Cheerio John

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[pshrutpark]

The Red Cross is an international organisation originating in Switzerland and based there. The symbol is universal but within each member country it is administered/controlled by that country to ensure proper application. The USA is simply a member like almost all other countries.

Advice on it's worldwide use/non-use within OSM should be directed to the International Committee of Red Cross and the International Federation of Red Cross Societies, based in Geneve.
 
Cheers.

[Sabra Sharaya]

I think anybody trying to copyright a plus sign is a bellend.

[john whelan]

And I totally agree.

Cheerio John

On 21 September 2013 23:16, Sabra Sharaya <sabras...@gmail.com> wrote:

I think anybody trying to copyright a plus sign is a bellend.

[Staffan V]

Den fredagen den 20:e september 2013 kl. 20:44:40 UTC+2 skrev EvanCanton:

Within the last year, I've read several news reports of app-makers who had to change imagery in their apps because of the copyright on the red-cross symbol.

I dubt the copyright is enforceable since it's such a basic symbol.
 

Several of them adopted the blue star of life (see Google Images) which looks like a blue asterisk containing the staff of Asclepius which is a staff with one snake entwined upon it not to be confused with a cadecues which is a winged staff with two snakes upon it.  The blue star of life is seen on most ambulances, hospital entrances, and on some medical equipment.

Is this really universal?

[grin]

On Sunday, September 22, 2013 12:35:55 AM UTC+2, john whelan wrote:

 

Currently the icon used by OSMAND is not an exact copy of the American Red Cross icon.  I accept that in some locations in the world such as Germany the American Red Cross Society's copyright is not enforceable.

Commenting on the IP law aspects:

* copyright protection protects an artwork: if the red plus wasn't downloaded from Red Cross and it wasnt copied verbatim from their logo page then it's not copyrighted with extreme high probability.

* as far as I see the Red Cross symbol isn't trademarked

* it is, however, defined by the Geneva Convention, which states that the protected image is a red standing cross on white background with the text "red cross something". Internationally that stands.

* in the USA it's a mess but if I understand correctly the red cross (and crescent moon and diamond and whatnot) on white background is enjoying kind of trademark protection (even without the subtext). red plus on any background but white doesn't.

 

If the background is not white the red plus icon is quite probably not protected and stopping us from using it is probably not possible.

We know that OSMAND is used in disaster areas where the Red Cross operates perhaps they would be happy if we used their icon to map where they are operating.

My suggestion is OSMAND changes its icons to be more distinct from the American Red Cross Society to avoid conflict. 

This is a good point of view: nobody needs direct conflicts. If I were involved I'd asked them whether a not white background would make them happy, they are obliged to say yes (since they have no lawful control over other combinations) and everyone would feeel he got his right. :-)

g