OSM aktivity pouzivatela macdale v Stiavnickych vrchoch

[Alexander Zatko]

Caute,

miklosakos mi poslal ziadost o nazor v pripade editacii pouzivatela macdale v Stiavnickych vrchoch. Ak ma niekto chut/cas sa s tym zaoberat, nizsie citujem spravu v jej uplnosti. Ak treba, pouzite nejaky online prekladac na ziskanie slovenskej verzie (casti) textu.

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Chcel by som vás informovať a poradiť sa o situácii, ktorá sa nedávno objavila. Pred niekoľkými rokmi som od vás dostal prísnu, ale spravodlivú kritiku týkajúcu sa mojich úprav, a to je dôvod, prečo sa na vás obraciam. Hoci som žil 2 roky v Štiavnici, a vtedy vo voľnom čase som vymeriaval cesty a chodníky a tvoril mapy, necítim sa dostatočne zakotvený v slovenskej OSM komunite (najmä ako maďar žijúci teraz v Slovinsku). Prosím, dovoľte mi ďalej písať v angličtine, bolo by to pre mňa rýchlejšie.

In the recent months, a massive, large-scale editing campaign is being carried out by a mapper called macdale: https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/macdale

Analysing his changesets, he proves to be a person who is an expert of Štiavnica, certainly knowledgeable, and has access to much info on mining heritage (názvy a miesta šácht, štôlní, banský vodohospodársky systém atď…), seemingly has a confident knowledge in local geography and history, too. He must be one of those few “Štiavnica-specialists” whom I would highly respect.

However, since the amount of his editings is simply so vast, I can’t believe that all of them are verified. My biggest problem is that he interprets practically all the linear relief features on the LiDAR layer as roads/tracks/paths, seemigly without criticism. I myself experienced it many times that old, long-abandoned roads, which are still clearly visible on LiDAR, can be unrecognizably overgrown by the forest on the terrain. Even worse is that small erosion valleys and relief undulations are also interpreted as roads. Sometimes these “roads” are going through shrubby cleared forests (holoruby), where the ortophoto layer shows no trace of any roads. It would be an inhumanely enormous task to walk through and survey all the roads he added, so I simply have to say that most of them must simply be added without field inspection or any secondary verification.

In short, however much I appreciate his efforts, I believe that he sacrifices the quality on the altar of quantity: less but verified data would be preferable than overburdening the map with data of questionable quality.

Please, consider my message, and forward the issue to the appropriate discussion forums if you think that it’s necessary. I would also like to know your oppinion, so I’d like to read your feedback.

[T. -]

English translation follows below.

Ahoj, za mňa: lesné cesty a chodníky je možné "od stola" (bez znalosti terénu) pridávať v prípade, že je cesta viditeľná na Lidare a zároveň viditeľná na aktuálnej Ortofotomozaike a zároveň po nej vedú GPS stopy v Strave alebo Openstreetmap. 

Preferoval by som, aby miklosakos okomentoval macdale-ovi pár konkrétnych changesetov, vysvetlil prečo môžu byť pochybné cesty pre užívateľov problém a požiadal o opravu; ak by reakcia nebola adekvátna alebo bol problém s jazykom, môže sa to potom riešiť na tomto fóre. 

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Hi, as for me: it is possible to add the tracks and paths by "armchair mapping" (without the on-site situation knowledge) in this case: the track is visible on the Lidar and also it is visible on the updated Ortofotomozaika and also the Strava or Openstreetmap GPS tracks are visible. 

I would prefer if miklosakos comments macdale's questioned changesets and explain why the dubious track can be problematic for the map users and ask him for the correction; if the reaction would not be appropriate or there is a language barrier, then the case can be solved here on the forum

Tomas_J

[Mouse Bear]

Ahojte, dakujem za rekacie aj komenty. Kvoli casu sa vyjdarim k tomuto v najblizsich dnoch. V zasade suhlasim s miklosakos-om. Rad by som vsak vysvetlil,  preco som to takto spravil.

Hello everyone. Thanks a lot for your response and comments. Due to time, I will get you more infos in next few days. In principle, I agree with you Miklosakos. However, I would like to explain all of you, why I did it like this. Best regards Miso.

[Mouse Bear]

Ahojte,
v o blasti Stiavnice sa pohybujem takmer 40 rokov. Kedze tento kraj je rodiskom mojich rodicov a mojim druhym domovom, vela tu mam toho schodne a viem co to aj o historii. I ked som sa mapam venoval uz predtym (lebo ma to bavi), iba minuly rok som objavil moznost ako prispievat do toho projektu. Vsetko co o tomto kraji viem, postupne preklapam z mojich map sem. Plne suhlasim s miklosakos ...je lepsie robit veci radsej kvalitne nez unahlene a v kvantach. To ze tu vsak odomna toho tolko pribuda, je len cira chut. Kvalitativne sa snazim aby to bolo co najpravdivejsie. Napriek tomu, ze tomu davam patricnu vaznost, nietkore body a trasy este dodatocne optimalizujem a upravujem. Som tu len od minuleho oktobra a este z daleka neovladam vsetky nuansy.

K teme:
Lesne cesty a chodnicky som pridaval na zaklade vlastneho poznania terenu. Samozrejme nie vsetky mam prejdene. Pri ich zakreslovani si pomaham najma lidarovymi snimkami, ortofotosnimkami z roznych rokov snimania (z aplikacie JOSM, googlearth, historicka ortofoto).  Z LIDARU-u sa vsak stare cesty a chodnicky daju odcitat takmer presne. Po par rokoch, co sa mapam venujem, mozem povedat ze mam na to vytrenovane oko. Cesty, ktore spomina pan miklosakos je mozne, ze nie su priechodne v celej svojej dlzke. To sa stava najma na ich nastupoch, kedy su bud pretate novymi cestami popri ktorych vyrasta huste krovie alebo prechadzaju zarastajucim polomom. Dalej v lese su vsak dobre pozorovatelne a priechodne. Pre mna ako cloveka, co sa pohybuje volne v terene, je velmi napomocne, ked na nejaku natrafim a viem sa podla mapy zorientovat, kam ma zavedie, pripadne, kde sa napaja na dalsiu. Ak niektora cesta za urcitu dobu vymyzne tak, ze uz nie je vobec identifikovatelna, skor som zato aby sa vymazala dodatocne. Pride mi to lepsie ako pozerat do slepej mapy. V pripade pripomienky vedenia ciest rieciskom alebo ryhami, by bolo dobre keby miklosakos naznacil, ktore/v ktorej oblasti ma na mysli. Lesne/polne cesty, ktore sa v minulosti intezivne vyuzivali pri tazbe dreva podliehaju vacsej erozii v dosledku topenia snehu a dazda. Z toho dovodu sa moze ich trasovanie javit ako trasovanie v riecisku pripadne v prirodnom vymole.

Dajte vediet prosim co si o tom myslite, pripadne dajte nejaky navod ako tieto stare cesty lepsie oznacovat (tracktype+grade5, disused-yes???). 

Dakujem

[Tomas Jancovic]

Ahoj, je veľmi nepríjemné ak v polovici cesty zistíš, že je úplne neschodná a nedá sa ňou dostať do cieľa. Osobne preto beriem Openstreetmap pri turistike s veľkou rezervou, čo im znižuje hodnotu.  Preferujem preto do budúcna dodržať pri mapovaní zásadu uvedenú nižšie a tiež vy bolo super ak by si podľa nej preveril aj tvoje staré prípady; určite vieš, kde si tento postup nedodržal. Používam ďalej tagy visibility, smoothness a v horách sac_scale, ale je otázka ako s nimi pracujú rôzne mapy a navigácie. 

Zopakujem : 

Ahoj, za mňa: lesné cesty a chodníky je možné "od stola" (bez znalosti terénu) pridávať v prípade, že je cesta viditeľná na Lidare a zároveň viditeľná na aktuálnej Ortofotomozaike a zároveň po nej vedú GPS stopy v Strave alebo Openstreetmap

Tomas _J

Dne po 22. 1. 2024 3:07 uživatel Mouse Bear <misko...@gmail.com> napsal:

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Túto správu ste dostali, pretože v Skupinách Google ste odberateľom témy v skupine "Openstreetmap Slovakia".
V prípade, že chcete zrušiť odber tejto témy, prejdite na adresu https://groups.google.com/d/topic/osm_sk/jCIn4V38FKw/unsubscribe.
Ak chcete zrušiť odber tejto skupiny a všetkých jej tém, pošlite e-mail na adresu osm_sk+un...@googlegroups.com.
Ak chcete zobraziť túto diskusiu na webe, prejdite na adresu https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/osm_sk/45ec532f-474d-4d2f-ab44-4cf598555ccan%40googlegroups.com.

[peterm...@gmail.com]

Ahojte,

 

Porast v lese sa vyvija. Mame stastie, ze stromy u nas nerastu tak rychlo ako bambus :-).

 

Ale kazdopadne, pri turistike by som odporucal drzat sa turistickych znacenych tras. Ak to idem risknut mimo znaceneho chodnika (zakazane to nie je – s vynimkou chranenych uzemi), tak musim pocitat s tym, ze lesna cesta alebo lesny chodnik budu zarastene. Ved to co sa namapuje teraz, ze je priechodne, nebudeme kazdy rok aktualizovat podla prechodnosti…

 

Tolko moj nazor.

 

Peter

--
Túto správu ste dostali, pretože v Skupinách Google ste odberateľom skupiny "Openstreetmap Slovakia".
V prípade, že chcete zrušiť odber tejto skupiny a prestať od nej prijímať e-maily, zašlite e-mail na adresu osm_sk+un...@googlegroups.com.
Ak chcete zobraziť túto diskusiu na webe, prejdite na adresu https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/osm_sk/CA%2BHiEyxunsPpTEN4%2BZTFSz5kKA4shx4nkc_7VmgtYZx_NHshHQ%40mail.gmail.com.

[Martin Ždila]

On Mon, Jan 22, 2024 at 12:57 PM <peterm...@gmail.com> wrote:

Porast v lese sa vyvija. Mame stastie, ze stromy u nas nerastu tak rychlo ako bambus :-).

 

Ale kazdopadne, pri turistike by som odporucal drzat sa turistickych znacenych tras. Ak to idem risknut mimo znaceneho chodnika (zakazane to nie je – s vynimkou chranenych uzemi), tak musim pocitat s tym, ze lesna cesta alebo lesny chodnik budu zarastene. Ved to co sa namapuje teraz, ze je priechodne, nebudeme kazdy rok aktualizovat podla prechodnosti…

 

Tolko moj nazor.

Priklanam sa k tomuto nazoru. Za mna, ak cesta existuje a "len" je prerastena, chyba jej tag obstacle (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:obstacle) ktory moze doplnit dalsi mapper. Do OSM zanasame veci postupne, neskor niekto iny moze pridat width, surface, trail_visibility, sac_scale. Ak dana cesta je uz uplne prerastena, co zisti mapper v terene, tak ju moze zakomentovat (nechat len note tag).

--

Ing. Martin Ždila

OZ Freemap Slovakia

tel:+421-908-363-848
mailto:martin...@freemap.sk
http://www.freemap.sk/

 

[Dodko]

Keď pozrieš komentáre k mapovým aplikáciám tak ľudia sú nahnevaný ak ich mapa zavedie na nepriechodné miesto a musia sa vrátiť späť, alebo sú tam neexistujúce cesty s ktorými počítali pri plánovaní.

Pri mapovaní používam predponu životného cyklu https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Cs:P%C5%99edpona_%C5%BEivotn%C3%ADho_cyklu

abandoned:highway dokáže zobraziť aplikácia OsmAnd inak ako bežnú cestu

https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/1056367712

tu som rozsekol pôvodnú cestu na priechodnú a nepriechodnú časť, ak ju niekto vyseká môže zmeniť značky

https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/997712490

podľa starej Ortofoto bola cesta priechodná

https://www.freemap.sk/#map=19/48.673672/20.512054&layers=J

podľa DMR tiež https://www.freemap.sk/#map=19/48.673672/20.512054&layers=5

podľa starej stravy tam chodili

Keď som to šiel preskúmať, aby som pridal chýbajúcu cestičku tak bolo zarastené tŕním a nepriechodné, preto som tú cestu ani nevložil do OSM, dal som značku že ďalej už nepokračuje

https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/9706630459

tu je tiež značka že cesta ďalej nepokračuje, končí žihľavou https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/9590480254

a tu sú kríky https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/9609501044

Dátum: pondelok 22. januára 2024, čas: 10:31:01 UTC+1, odosielateľ: Tomas Jancovic

[Dodko]

A ešte v zime nezvyknem pridávať nové cesty, lebo stalo sa mi že v zime tadiaľ prejdem a v lete bolo zarastené žihľavou.

Buď vysekám cestu a až tak ju pridám, alebo ju nepridám ak sa nedá normálne prejsť.

[Martin Ždila]

Ak v zime prejdes tak je seasonal :-)

On Mon, Jan 22, 2024, 18:58 Dodko <ircd...@centrum.sk> wrote:

A ešte v zime nezvyknem pridávať nové cesty, lebo stalo sa mi že v zime tadiaľ prejdem a v lete bolo zarastené žihľavou.

Buď vysekám cestu a až tak ju pridám, alebo ju nepridám ak sa nedá normálne prejsť.

--

Túto správu ste dostali, pretože v Skupinách Google ste odberateľom skupiny "Openstreetmap Slovakia".

V prípade, že chcete zrušiť odber tejto skupiny a prestať od nej prijímať e-maily, zašlite e-mail na adresu osm_sk+un...@googlegroups.com.
Ak chcete zobraziť túto diskusiu na webe, prejdite na adresu https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/osm_sk/6e33b3d1-7b92-400c-b2f5-c19ab940300cn%40googlegroups.com.

[Ákos Miklós]

Zdravím všetkých!

Dovoľte mi, aby som písal po anglicky. Po slovensky rozumiem, ale písať a argumentovať o zložitých témach by bolo pre mňa ťažké a dlhé.

I.
A few words about me.
I studied geodesy and cartography. For me, editing OpenStreetMap is only a hobby, but dealing with Štiavnica is a passion. I am in contact with the town since 2005, and ever since I'm researching its history and geography. Meanwhile, I started surveying the town and its surroundings with my Garmin eTrex device, to create my own maps. In 2012–2013 I lived in the town for 1.5 years as an EVS volunteer, working on the reconstruction of the Calvary. This was the time when I joined OSM. Later I created paper maps primarily for Hungarian audience, but I worked on some projects with the tourist board of BŠ as well.
Recently my focus has shifted, since I have moved to Slovenia, but I still try to keep an eye on the events concerning the town, and its virtul representation on OSM/Freemap.sk.

II.
I am very happy to see that Mouse Bear a.k.a. Miško Macko has joined this conversation. Although we don't know each other, but when I started discovering Štiavnica, in my early phase around 2008–2010, he had hundreds of geotagged photos on Panoramio of every sort of mining and cultural pamiatky, and I learnt a lot from those. I also found one of his maps. Sadly, that time I couldn't find any active contacts to reach him to say thanks.

The reason why I'm writing this in public is that I want to confirm his credibility in the topic of Štiavnica.

III.
K téme:
I mainly wanted to focus the attention of the community to this issue. Being somewhat an outsider, I don't feel myself eligible to lead or coordinate this discussion, since there are certain customs and principles on (Slovak) OSM that I'm unfamiliar with, so I want to interfere only minimally.
Macdale's editings are, as I wrote, largely correct and seemingly based on credible sources. The problem is exactly this, out of his immense contribution, it's difficult to determine what is correct and what is not. I'm bringing a few examples as case studies.

a) Gretzmacherov prameň (Gretzmacher-forrás)
It was a spring on the north-western slopes of Sitno. It was built during the times of Uhorsko, by the Štiavnica hikers' association, Oddelenie Sitno (Szitnya Osztály). It got its name after Gyula/Július Gretzmacher (1836–1906). Based on his priezvisko, he had nicknames, and so did the spring, which was also called Gretzer- or Gréci-forrás. The 3rd Military Survey already marks it. Based on this, the Czechoslovak topographic mapping of the 1930s also marked it. The first post-war hiking maps took it over as well, although in the meantime the spring itself deteriorated and finally disappeared. Since there was nothing to denote, the name got detached and started wandering on later maps. Currently the Geografické názvoslovie layer of the ZBGIS map puts the spring cca. 200 m to the west, where the 1971/74 hiking map still marked a Schmidtbergerov prm., which is now also gone.
Macdale in his editing (which I already corrected with my changeset #146401232) created a "Graetzmacherov (Schmidtbergerov)" prameň, and placed it to a third location, where might actually be a natural spring, but neither of the aforementioned ones. To localise Gretzmacherov prameň, I used old maps, old descriptions (HU and SK guidebooks from 1898, 1924/26 and 1966), and 2 old pictures, and after several attempts, I finally found its remnants on the terrain.
The problem that it indicates: macdale learnt about its existence, found data sources to it, found a place in the vicinity on Lidar where there might be a spring, maybe knew someone who told him about it, placed there the point feature, and all of this would be fine for everyone, except that it's not true. But detecting the mistake was only possible because I put a lot of effort into finding that little hole in the ground.

The case of "Žiacka kuchyňa" is very similar to this.

b) Toponyms

He is also adding many geographical names. I generally support it, since it is a part of cultural heritage; collecting, renewing, and using them should be encouraged. The problem comes when they are not well understood, or only copied between databases en masse. (Names on the Slovak geoportal are also not flawless.) Throughout time, they can get detached from their denoted features and "wander away", or descriptions can mistakenly turn into proper names (vlastné mená), or their spelling can get scrambled. Macdale added a "Greicarová" microtoponym near the original Gretzmacherov prameň. The distortion of this name was certainly not an organic process, but the result of cartographers transcribing the name many times through the last century.

(There are some phonetic rules how German names were historically adapted by Slovak speakers, and by these, the name "Gretzer" – which was already a nickname – would be "Greciar".)

A few years ago someone criticised me for adding toponyms and not specifying my sources. Now I would demand the same from Macdale – also out of curiosity.

c) "Fake" roads
This topic was most discussed here. I wasn't talking about 5-10 years old roads, but really old ones, that are no longer roads for 50 or 100 years. Lidar can still show them. There are also those "roads" that were used for ťažba dreva by heavy forestry machinery as jednorazové stopy. And there are the small erosion valleys.
Some areas that are suspicious to me:
www.freemap.sk/#map=18/48.454170/18.933418&layers=Xs0
www.freemap.sk/#map=18/48.449430/18.941685&layers=Xs0
I must agree with Tomas J. on "armchair mapping" rules:
Without field survey, a track should only be added if the track is visible on the Lidar AND also it is visible on the updated Ortofotomozaika AND (or at least OR) the Strava or OSM GPS tracks.

Sorry for the lengthy message. I hope I managed to illustrate my concerns through these examples somewhat.

Pozdrav:
Ákoš Miklóš

[Martin Ždila]

Ak by mal niekto schopnosti a chuť, mohol by rozbehať automatické určovanie "zarastenosti" ciest pomocou už zmapovaných ciest v OSM a lidarových mračien bodov:

• https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1569843222002084?via%3Dihub
  
• https://github.com/Jean-Romain/vecnet
  
• https://github.com/Jean-Romain/ALSroads
  

Potom by sme tieto údaje vedeli premietnúť do OSM.