Road category

[Stasiu 512]

Hello, I am from Poland and I was redirected to this forum. I would like to talk about a possible change of road in Slovakia.

In Poland, the official road classification is not unified with the road classification in OSM. For example, in Poland we have national, provincial and district roads. Changing them according to the scheme into `primary`, `secondary` and `tertiary` does not make sense because it does not reflect the actual traffic but only the official classification. Recently, on the forum of the Polish OSM community, a thread appeared regarding national road 75 which ends at the border with Slovakia and turns into a tertiary road. (`primary` -> `tertiary`)

After analyzing the official traffic measurement data, which on provincial road 981 (`secondary`) is ten times greater than on the aforementioned national road 75 (`primary`), we changed the road category and transferred `primary` to this road https://www.openstreetmap.org/directions?engine=fossgis_valhalla_car&route=49.463764%2C20.954616%3B49.296139%2C20.925345, by the way we also connected to your road 77a which is `primary`. National road 75 on this nickname https://www.openstreetmap.org/directions?engine=fossgis_valhalla_car&route=49.463764%2C20.954841%3B49.374534%2C21.102430 has been downgraded to `secondary` due to the small traffic on it. I would like to upgrade road 3483 to unify road categories and adjust it to its real importance. The section that I think should be upgraded due to the fastest connection Nowy Sącz - Bardejov and further towns -
https://www.openstreetmap.org/directions?engine=fossgis_valhalla_car&route=49.374523%2C21.102526%3B49.323965%2C21.150578.

Additionally, following the official classification is not consistent with the wiki - https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:highway - "Note that highway=* distinguishes roads by function and importance rather by their physical characteristic and legal classification. Usually these things are highly correlated, but OSM is not obligated to copy official road classifications." For example, on the aforementioned road, there are incomprehensible categories such as this one - https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/1100676790, `tertiary` on a forest road that does not have the meaning described in the wiki "The next most important roads in a country's system." Another example is the road passing through the village of Kurov https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/39382476 which has the same category as the road bypassing this village and the meaning of these roads is completely different.

In conclusion, I would like to know your opinion on such an increase in the road category, I am willing to talk, I will not change anything without the consent of your community, that is why I am writing :)

Greetings from Poland!

[Jozef Matejička]

From our view current situation is fine. In Slovakia there is nation wide road classification. We map according to that classification. This classification in general case can be verified on the ground.

Your proposed change would be considered tagging for renderer. Which is against OSM rules.

Note I did verified that mentioned road is tagged correctly.

Kind regards,
Jozef

Dne ne 9. 3. 2025 5:17 uživatel Stasiu 512 <staz...@gmail.com> napsal:

--
Túto správu ste dostali, pretože v Skupinách Google ste odberateľom skupiny "Openstreetmap Slovakia".
V prípade, že chcete zrušiť odber tejto skupiny a prestať od nej prijímať e-maily, zašlite e-mail na adresu osm_sk+un...@googlegroups.com.
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[Stasiu 512]

Thank you very much for your answer!

Raising this road to `secondary` is not tagging for the renderer!

Please read what tagging for the renderer is - https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tagging_for_the_renderer.

Tagging for the renderer is creating fiction so that it looks nice on the map. Defining the correct importance of the road is correct as you can also read about on the wiki - https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:highway.

By mapping this road https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/1100676790 as `tertiary` you are mapping for the renderer because this is its fictional importance, in reality it is `track`

Think about changing the use of official classification because this is wrong paming that violates OSM rules.

For example, in Poland, to define the official road category, we use the key highway:category:pl -https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Pl:Key:highway:category:pl?uselang=pl.

Kind regards!

[Tomas_J]

Hi, 

I agree with the opinion of Josef Matejicka above. Let's keep the official Slovak road categorization [1] instead of traffic volume criteria. I think the official categories also comply with the general wiki  road classification (primary, secondary, tertiary etc).

[1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Slovakia_roads_tagging

Tomas_J

[Stasiu 512]

I understand that you have such rules, but they are outdated (last edit 11 years ago) and, as I mentioned above, unfortunately the official classification is not consistent with the documentation on the wiki and the purpose of the road (for example, the forest road described above as `tertiary`).

Then why do you map very restrictively in accordance with the official classification in one case, and not in other cases? For example, in Bratislava many roads without numbers are mapped as `secondary` or `primary` but have no numbers - https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/59577497.

There should be consistency in OSM. If you do everything in accordance with the classification, such roads should be `unclassified`, which is absurd!

[Aceman444]

Hi.

We understand what you mean. However the classification of roads in OSM is very subjective (which road is more important). Also basing the importance of roads on amount of traffic could be misleading (there may be changes to traffic any week due to detours, road work, seasonal changes, etc.). So for objectiveness, simplicity and solving of disputes (of where the classification came from), we use the official state classification of the road administration company. After all, it is their job to analyse importance of roads and updating it when necessary (and they do, they change road segments all the time: https://www.cdb.sk/sk/cestna-siet-SR/vybrane-zmeny-v-cestnej-sieti.alej, according to new bypass road constructions, etc.)

Yes, there are some exceptions where the classification does not make sense, like in forest track roads, where no public cars can drive, then there really should not be e.g. 'tertiary'. We have a concept how to mark that in OSM.

Thus, we can check https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/1100676790 .

Also, there is no rule saying roads continuing across country border must have the same classification. Yes, it may slightly imply from the definition of class in OSM (if a road connects big cities, it may not matter it passes a country border). But we have not opted to do this.

Dátum: nedeľa 9. marca 2025, čas: 11:48:15 UTC+1, odosielateľ: Stasiu 512

[Aceman444]

Dátum: nedeľa 9. marca 2025, čas: 14:17:19 UTC+1, odosielateľ: Stasiu 512

I understand that you have such rules, but they are outdated (last edit 11 years ago) and, as I mentioned above, unfortunately the official classification is not consistent with the documentation on the wiki and the purpose of the road (for example, the forest road described above as `tertiary`).

Then why do you map very restrictively in accordance with the official classification in one case, and not in other cases? For example, in Bratislava many roads without numbers are mapped as `secondary` or `primary` but have no numbers - https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/59577497.

There should be consistency in OSM. If you do everything in accordance with the classification, such roads should be `unclassified`, which is absurd!

Correct, we have some exceptions in big cities, where we marked some roads as secondary/tertiary above the official classification to create a backbone of roads to mark which roads lead most of the traffic across the city. You could also see on the ground that those were built more generously by the city and have 4-8 traffic lanes, so they are above mere 'street' (residential) in importance. Yes, it could also work to have all those roads as residential and traffic would still go there, as those are maxspeed=50 while other roads inside residential house blocks are maxspeed=30. But in these cases we use the OSM semantics of the classification tags.

[Stasiu 512]

That is why the OSM community and such forums are created to discuss and make decisions about such category changes - if a decisive majority is in favor of the change, it is changed.

"Also, there is no rule saying roads continuing across country border must have the same classification." - Yes, but the meaning of the road does not change and it continues to serve the same function as on the Polish side.

I will mention once again that you are acting against the wiki only for objectiveness, simplicity and resolving disputes. This is not a correct action in OSM, it is even discouraged. Why do you have such large differences between the English wiki and the Slovak one? Forgive me, but your official classification is not perfect.

[Aleš]

Čo sa táka tieto lesné cesty, tak u tohto pahýľa nie má zmysel mať tertiary, možno residential?
Hlavne nezabúdnuť vyrezanie lúk v lese do multipolygonu.

--

Aleš

---------- Původní e-mail ----------
Od: Aceman444 <acesha...@gmail.com>
Komu: Openstreetmap Slovakia <osm...@googlegroups.com>
Datum: 9. 3. 2025 14:27:31
Předmět: Re: [osm_sk] Road category

--

Túto správu ste dostali, pretože v Skupinách Google ste odberateľom skupiny "Openstreetmap Slovakia".
V prípade, že chcete zrušiť odber tejto skupiny a prestať od nej prijímať e-maily, zašlite e-mail na adresu osm_sk+un...@googlegroups.com.

Ak si chcete pozrieť túto diskusiu, prejdite na https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/osm_sk/f16bbee1-28fe-4bd7-935a-2d2c6fa3b39en%40googlegroups.com.

[Aceman444]

Dátum: nedeľa 9. marca 2025, čas: 14:34:06 UTC+1, odosielateľ: Stasiu 512

That is why the OSM community and such forums are created to discuss and make decisions about such category changes - if a decisive majority is in favor of the change, it is changed.

True, and so far you see the majority is against any change. We can wait for some time to see if anyone else comments.

 

"Also, there is no rule saying roads continuing across country border must have the same classification." - Yes, but the meaning of the road does not change and it continues to serve the same function as on the Polish side.

I will mention once again that you are acting against the wiki only for objectiveness, simplicity and resolving disputes. This is not a correct action in OSM, it is even discouraged. Why do you have such large differences between the English wiki and the Slovak one? Forgive me, but your official classification is not perfect.

Well, the OSM rules and wiki descriptions aren't perfect either and conflict often (because they are written by people often without discussion or voting). Also there is a rule that things in OSM should not be done subjectively and must be verifiable on the ground (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Verifiability). Thus, the whole road classification as defined in OSM is wrong and against this rule. Note that the same page mentions highway classifications are problematic.

[Aceman444]

Presne tak. Tu cestu opravim. Dam track, kedze je to cesta do lesa a nie v meste.

Aj tie multipolygony.

Dátum: nedeľa 9. marca 2025, čas: 14:43:09 UTC+1, odosielateľ: Aleš

[Aceman444]

If you read e.g. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dsecondary (and also primary), it is mentioned that in cities it is used to mark main arterial roads, which is exactly what I described. So our system is according to the wiki and is consistent.

Dátum: nedeľa 9. marca 2025, čas: 14:17:19 UTC+1, odosielateľ: Stasiu 512

I understand that you have such rules, but they are outdated (last edit 11 years ago) and, as I mentioned above, unfortunately the official classification is not consistent with the documentation on the wiki and the purpose of the road (for example, the forest road described above as `tertiary`).

[Stasiu 512]

Thank you very much for solving the problem of road 3483a. This is how it should look, it shows what function this forest road serves.

I really like the use of the ssc:class key, it is an equivalent of the highway:category:pl I mentioned above. These tags should define individual official classifications, and copying to OSM with the appropriate `primary`, `secondary` etc. does not have a good effect on either routing or map readability (please do not confuse with rendering).

I would like to hear your arguments about road 3484 which passes through Kurov, why it has the same category as road 3483 which bypasses Kurov? You surely won't tell me that these roads serve the same function.

[Tibor Jamečný]

ne 9. 3. 2025 o 11:48 Stasiu 512 <staz...@gmail.com> napísal(a):

By mapping this road https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/1100676790 as `tertiary` you are mapping for the renderer because this is its fictional importance, in reality it is `track`

Let me correct you: this is OFFICIALLY a tertiary road:

Feel free to contact the SSC (https://www.ssc.sk/sk/kontakty.ssc) and explain them, that they are doing it wrong 😉

I understand your point, but it also has multiple issues:

1) what will be the source for classification?

2) can it be used for mapping into the OSM?

3) does it cover all roads in Slovakia?

4) how often is it updated?

5) who will decide, what are the ranges for each road type, e.g. 5000 - 10000 vehicles per day is "primary". Will it be based on the total number of vehicles, or separately for "cars" and "trucks"?

6) there are some mountain passes, which are limited to vehicles with a total length < 10 meters during the winter season. And some mountain passes are completely closed during the winter season, because "somebody" decided that they will not be maintained at all 🙁 Does it mean that we will have to update the OSM tagging twice per year?

Until most of these issues are answered, I prefer to stick with the current situation. Although it is far from ideal, there is currently nothing better than that (at least I'm not aware of such a source).

Br

Tibor

[Stasiu 512]

Officially yes, but in fact it has no such purpose. I do not care about changing in SSC and in OSM because in SSC everything is correct, and in OSM it is currently incorrect. You showed the ssc:class tag which is the perfect solution to the problem. Remember about consistency, i.e. if you used this key once, why would you not want to use it in another case? Each category is separately defined on the wiki together with the key itself, where it is clearly written that in OSM we define roads according to function and importance and not according to official classification.

Answering the questions - the source is the community, each situation can be approached individually, no one changes the category hastily and all changes are discussed and argued on the forum. In the sources you can provide a link to a thread from the forum. In Poland, such a system has been operating for many years and it is efficient, all undiscussed changes to higher categories are reversed. I am not talking about changing all roads, but about changing those in which the official classification does not reflect the actual purpose of the road and its importance in transit.

So-called seasonal roads can be dealt with in various ways, e.g. national road 37 leading to seaside towns according to the official classification should be `primary`, but we decided on `secondary` due to the fact that traffic outside the season is negligible. For example, in Poland we also lowered to `tertiary` national roads leading to temporarily closed border crossings with Belarus due to very local traffic after the border crossings were closed. In our country, even expressways were mapped as `motorways` due to very similar parameters to motorways. Of course, there was a community vote that decided on the change.

[Filip C]

I found this document https://www.ssc.sk/files/documents/rozvoj_cestnej_siete/koncepcia/03_cesty.pdf based on which road categories should be categorized.

I think that roads are maintained and also reconstructed based on STN (slovak technical standard). In this standard are also written parameters of safety like width, guardrails etc.

So in my opinion tagging based on ssc is the way we should go, because roads are reconstructed and built based on must have parameters of each category.

So that road we are talking about will be reconstructed on lower standard. And based of their classification "cesty, ktoré majú spravidla miestny význam" it is just road with local importance. If it is not, I recommend write to ssc.

Dňa ne 9. 3. 2025, 22:42 Stasiu 512 <staz...@gmail.com> napísal(a):

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